Maybe you all know - R3 FLAC streaming

[dave2010]

See http://www.bbc.co.uk/taster/projects/radio-3-concert-sound/inside-story

Currently Rachmaninov Symphony 2 sounds OK - though I do still think I've heard better.
Probably better than aac streaming though.

If you try it with an external DAC probably best to turn the volume right up on the browser - though don't do that for headphone listening from the computer which might damage your hearing.

[JimC]

Thanks for the info.

Sounds great.

Jim.

[dave2010]

Thanks for the info.

Sounds great.

Jim.Indeed. I think some of the material sounds better than anything we've had before. Apparently it's 16 bit 48 kHz as distributed, but may be at different bit depths and sample rates internally. Some programmes might be at bigger bit depth and higher sample rates before transmission, and if there are any CDs actually played there would be an upsample from 44.1 kHz.

Some material will still sound compromised, such as older recordings and more historical material. The best studio recordings are good, and if you can stay awake, or find a way to do high quality recording, then Through the Night has some good material most nights. Probably better than the so-called HD stream on the whole.

The quality of the speech announcements might be noticeably different from the music.

Definitely worth a shot.

[WAD62]

Indeed. I think some of the material sounds better than anything we've had before. Apparently it's 16 bit 48 kHz as distributed, but may be at different bit depths and sample rates internally. Some programmes might be at bigger bit depth and higher sample rates before transmission, and if there are any CDs actually played there would be an upsample from 44.1 kHz.


I checked the frequency on my iFi Nano iDSD USB DAC and it was showing 44.1 for the period I tried it...around Sunday tea time, sounded very good too :)

[dave2010]

I checked the frequency on my iFi Nano iDSD USB DAC and it was showing 44.1 for the period I tried it...around Sunday tea time, sounded very good too :)That's interesting. That suggests that the BBC is using whatever technical standards are appropriate, and then transmitting accordingly. My supposition of the 48/16 format was based on "inside" information - rather than technical evaluation.

Keep listening!

[WAD62]

That's interesting. That suggests that the BBC is using whatever technical standards are appropriate, and then transmitting accordingly. My supposition of the 48/16 format was based on "inside" information - rather than technical evaluation.

Keep listening!

There was also a 'hovering' legend stating 'lossless', anyway some interesting organ music...:cool:

[JimC]

Have you come to any concrete conclusions as to what the Sampling Rate is ?

Also, can someone help me with that ?
I run Windows 7 and feed a USB signal to an external DAC. In Windows 7 (maybe all Windows versions?) when Playback Devices is right clicked and the Properties of the selected device is accessed in the Advanced tab the Sampling Rate can be selected.
However, I have found that whatever I play via the Internet is upsampled to whatever I have selected in Playback Devices. So, if I select 192kHz then listen to this Radio 3 feed my PC is upsampling to 192 and feeding this then to my DAC. So, too much 'maths' going on and I'm probably not getting the full benefit.

I use JRiver to play my stored Music and have set this up to play the native Sample Rate of the recorded material.
There is an option in JRiver to 'Open Live...' and JRiver can be used to play back Internet content however in Playback Devices another Output route has to be selected to be able to use this function and so Windows also upsamples this roue to whatever has been set in the Advanced tab. So again lots of upsampling going on and I'm probably not getting the full benefit of the native stream.
Within JRiver there is also an 'Open URL' function and this can be used to access Internet Streams and does play them at the native Rate. However, with the Radio 3 feed the Play icon has to be pressed on the Web page to access the feed and JRiver cannot cope with this.

Can anyone see a way for me to be able to access the native stream of this Radio 3 feed?
There seems to be a difference of opinion as whether it is 44.1, 48, or ever variable so I cannot set it definitively within Playback Devices. Aaarrgghh, very frustrating !!!!

Any help appreciated.

Jim.

[WAD62]

Have you come to any concrete conclusions as to what the Sampling Rate is ?


I now see the reson for the discrepancies in sampling rates...

If you go into your sound device's properties, then advanced, there's an option to set the default sampling rate when in 'shared mode', or there is with my iFi
From 16/44.1 through to 24/192...mine's set to 16/44.1 as I only play 'red book' FLAC

Whatever I set my default to, shows as the rate on playback, so firefox is using the sound device in shared mode...so unless the stream details are available how can one set the appropriate rate...it just states lossless :scratch:

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[JimC]

Glad it's not just me !!!

J.

[dave2010]

Sadly this experiment is going to be cut short, so instead of five months it's now only going to run for a couple of weeks more. This is perhaps for rights reasons.

If you like the sounds (I do ...), then let the BBC know in an appropriate way, and they might figure out a way for more programmes to be distributed in this way, but the non technical reasons will have to be sorted first I guess.

[JimC]

That's a shame.

There is a 'Rate' icon at the top of the page which when you've clicked how many starts you think appropriate takes you to a mini survey.
Also there's a 'Share' option for Twitter and/or Facebook.
Perhaps fill these in and the BBC may take note and roll it out on a more permanent basis in the future if enough express an interest in it.

James.

[dave2010]

I now see the reson for the discrepancies in sampling rates...

If you go into your sound device's properties, then advanced, there's an option to set the default sampling rate when in 'shared mode', or there is with my iFi
From 16/44.1 through to 24/192...mine's set to 16/44.1 as I only play 'red book' FLAC

Whatever I set my default to, shows as the rate on playback, so firefox is using the sound device in shared mode...so unless the stream details are available how can one set the appropriate rate...it just states lossless :scratch:
Does this imply that your kit is downsampling to 44.1 kHz before doing the DAC? Can the setting to be set to "same as source", or to 48k Hz?

[JimC]

Does this imply that your kit is downsampling to 44.1 kHz before doing the DAC? Can the setting to be set to "same as source", or to 48k Hz?

I'm not sure about Windows 10 but anything earlier 'converts' anything to whatever is set in 'Playback Devices' in the Advanced Tab. So if you set it to 44.1 it 'down-samples' everything to 44.1. If you set it to 192 it 'up-samples' everything to 192.

If there is a way to set 'Same as Source' I'd love to know how to do this.....................anyone? Please?
I run Windows 7.

Jim.

[JimC]

I contacted the BBC and had a reply that it is 48kHz.

I have asked if there are any plans to roll it out for other stations and for a longer period. I'll keep you posted.

Cheers,

Jim.

[dave2010]

I have heard that the Proms this summer will be distributed in the same way - that's R3 mostly. I must remember to let the BBC know that I think the trial shows promise, and better quality than anything else that they've done for us in the public in recent years.

https://radiotoday.co.uk/2017/04/bbc-radio-3-ups-the-online-streaming-quality/

Re listening on a Windows system (and possibly others?) if the default sampling rate is set to anything other than 48 kHz, then there will be sampling rate conversion - which will introduce some additional artefacts. Golden eared listeners might notice this, so it may make sense to set the default rate to 48kHz to get the best results. I think that generally sample rate conversions aren't too damaging, though there are different ways that can be done, and some are better than others. There will be measurable effects - but arguably they will be inaudible to most people.

[JimC]

That's good news re the Proms.

J

[robtweed]

Found this - https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/31462-bbc-radio-3-testing-lossless-flac-streaming/

As a result, using the latest VLC v3.0.0 nightly build I'm able to listen to the BBC FLAC stream via the URL:

https://vs-dash-ww-rd-live.bbcfmt.hs.llnwd.net/al/lossless/client_manifest.mpd

Now the question - how can I capture/save this stream to a file using VLC? Anyone know?

[robtweed]

Now the question - how can I capture/save this stream to a file using VLC? Anyone know?

Figured it out:

./VLC -I rc https://vs-dash-ww-rd-live.bbcfmt.hs.llnwd.net/al/lossless/client_manifest.mpd --sout="#transcode{vcodec=none,acodec=flac}:std{access=fil e,mux=raw,dst='testr3.flac'}"

Note quite sure why there's a space showing above in access=file - I can't seem to remove it from the posted string, sorry!

Anyway, the above saves the stream to the file testr3.flac which can then be played back by anything capable of handling FLAC files!

[Theadmans]

..been enjoying this FLAC stream this week.

Since I was able to link the FLAC output to the SqueezeLite player of my Raspberry Pi and then through it's Wolfson Audio Card SPDIF output to my Caiman SEG DAC the difference is clear. I could switch between the previous AAC Dash feed of Radio 3 and the new FLAC feed to compare. The FLAC sounds so much better it is unreal in my system !!!! Have signed the BBC petition for FLAC and the sooner it is a reality the better.

[JimC]

Figured it out:

./VLC -I rc https://vs-dash-ww-rd-live.bbcfmt.hs.llnwd.net/al/lossless/client_manifest.mpd --sout="#transcode{vcodec=none,acodec=flac}:std{access=fil e,mux=raw,dst='testr3.flac'}"

Note quite sure why there's a space showing above in access=file - I can't seem to remove it from the posted string, sorry!

Anyway, the above saves the stream to the file testr3.flac which can then be played back by anything capable of handling FLAC files!

Hi Rob, thanks for this effort.

Can you let me know (for a real computer thicky) what I actually need to type as the URL?
There seems to be some type, then a link and then some further type.
I use JRiver and that has an ''Open URL'' tab which I use for my Internet listening and am hoping your endeavours will let me type a URL into it.

Cheers,

James.

P.S. I found this the other day and thought it may be of use.....
http://steveseear.org/high-quality-bbc-radio-streams/
Type the URL's into JRiver and a decent stream can be listened to. Not FLAC though

[robtweed]

Hi Rob, thanks for this effort.

Can you let me know (for a real computer thicky) what I actually need to type as the URL?
There seems to be some type, then a link and then some further type.
I use JRiver and that has an ''Open URL'' tab which I use for my Internet listening and am hoping your endeavours will let me type a URL into it.


Hi James

I'd be surprised if JRiver can handle this stream - it's all pretty new stuff, codec-wise. However, give it a go. Here's the bit of the URL that follows the https:// part:

vs-dash-ww-rd-live.bbcfmt.hs.llnwd.net/al/lossless/client_manifest.mpd

Hopefully this site won't mangle that!

Rob

[JimC]

Hi Rob,

you're right, JRiver doesn't know what to do with it !! Ah well, never mind.
Thanks anyway.
I can still listen via JRiver using the BBC web-site and the ''Open Live'' option. If I set Windows to 48kHz then there'll be no up/down-sampling being done and I should get the full benefit.

Cheers,

Jim.

[MikeyFresh]

Hi James

I'd be surprised if JRiver can handle this stream - it's all pretty new stuff, codec-wise. However, give it a go. Here's the bit of the URL that follows the https:// part:

vs-dash-ww-rd-live.bbcfmt.hs.llnwd.net/al/lossless/client_manifest.mpd

Hopefully this site won't mangle that!

Rob

The VLC 3.0.0 "overnight build" works flawlessly using that link to open the R3 stream, and to my ears it also sounds better than through the Firefox 51+ browser.