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hifinutt
10-01-2010, 15:35
i unfortunately have biwirerable speakers and over the past months i have had may sets of jumpers to try and tried various postions

the best sound i get is using the main speaker cable [analysis plus silver oval] postive to HF and negative to LF . more coherant and 3d sound

but have tried silver jumpers [150 pounds]

suprasword [didn`t fit ]

vertex mncayo [ 500 ish] didn`t sound good at all

analysis plus big silver oval [ in at moment on demo ]

but the best out of all of them is the 45 pound chord signature jumpers , sounds superb , easy to use and nothing at all can beat it in my experience over several months

DSJR
10-01-2010, 16:11
All you need are the gold plated brass jumpers as used by most manufacturers. Gold conducts better than silver so should be the best thing to use ;)

[Edit from below] - I must have it wrong, but I *would* say that speakers would have been designed and balanced with the supplied bi-wire links, wouldn't they?

Hydie
10-01-2010, 16:20
All you need are the gold plated brass jumpers as used by most manufacturers. Gold conducts better than silver so should be the best thing to use ;)

Surley silver is best then copper and gold last. Gold is used because it doesn't tarnish.:)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistivity

Steve Toy
10-01-2010, 16:39
Well no thanks to DSJR I've sold mine thanks. Dave they are awful those jumper bars despite your theory. I use Coherent jumpe leads. They cost 150 quid, almost double my speaker cable but are a worthwhile improvement over both the bars and the Chord Sigs.

hifi_dave
10-01-2010, 17:32
I hate to disagree with DSJR but I've got a box somewhere full of various gold-plated jumper bars, all of which were bested by a short length of decent cable.

I think the problem with the gold-plated jobbies is that if you could scrape off the gold and melt it down, the actual material you have would just about make enough wire to make a fuse and that is what you are listening to.:scratch:

I've never yet replaced a set of jumpers (some of them quite exotic) with a bit of wire and not heard an improvement. The wire jumper doesn't have to be anything special - Chord Rumour or Odyssey are plenty good enough especially when you consider what is inside the speaker.

Alex_UK
10-01-2010, 20:40
Surely the easiest option is just to use a bit of the same wire you are using for the speaker cable -well, what I do, anyway, my theory being that you want the same cable feeding the HF and LF?

DSJR
10-01-2010, 20:48
I hate to disagree with DSJR but I've got a box somewhere full of various gold-plated jumper bars, all of which were bested by a short length of decent cable.

I think the problem with the gold-plated jobbies is that if you could scrape off the gold and melt it down, the actual material you have would just about make enough wire to make a fuse and that is what you are listening to.:scratch:

I've never yet replaced a set of jumpers (some of them quite exotic) with a bit of wire and not heard an improvement. The wire jumper doesn't have to be anything special - Chord Rumour or Odyssey are plenty good enough especially when you consider what is inside the speaker.

Well thank heavens that at least two of my favourite speaker manufacturers have seen sense and designed decent crossovers that don't need bi-wire terminals!

The most that those bars/links are going to add is a tiny fraction of an Ohm to the loading - amazing that this can apparently be heard. The only ones I noticed were the original thick brass links Harbeth used decades ago, they now have them plated by a clock-maker, although each new model has abandoned the idea as it causes too much trouble and makes no difference to their speakers (they claim).

Macca
10-01-2010, 21:41
Why not bi-wire the 'speakers properly and forget the jumpers?

The Vinyl Adventure
10-01-2010, 22:13
In the absence of biwire and special little linky things - ie using the supplied metal things... is it better to connect to the high or low terminal

Alex_UK
10-01-2010, 22:15
In the absence of biwire and special little linky things - ie using the supplied metal things... is it better to connect to the high or low terminal

Try it each way - bet you a tenner there's no difference...

hifi_dave
11-01-2010, 10:36
There is a tiny difference and I'll be pleased to show you when you bring DSJR with you...:scratch:

As to bi-wiring - some time back Revel/Harman/JBL did a lot of work and published their findings about bi-wire V single wire. They listened via a panel of 'golden ears' and measured the same speakers single or bi-wired. Everything remained identical apart from the Bi or single wiring. Their findings were that bi-wire sounds inferior, all else being equal. They abandoned bi-wiring from then on and many manufacturers have since followed.

About time too. IMO.

DSJR
11-01-2010, 11:00
PMC's will need the heaviest duty speaker cables you can find - Hamish, did you guys chuck all the Cable-talk wires out when they went under? The green pipe-like Concert wires sounded fantastic with PMC's, the decent copper stranding adding no hash to the treble and the heavier gauge keeping the bass under better control - no foo, just heavy duty decent copper and insulation that doesn't react with the strands inside. Many dealers ignored it 'cos it's a thick green pipe from the outside, but Sevenoaks Guildford (one of the few branches that listened) and Noteworthy in Aylesbury liked it and sold plenty..

I'd probably suggest connecting to the bass unit first, but others with different systems will certainly disagree...

hifinutt
11-01-2010, 17:48
Why not bi-wire the 'speakers properly and forget the jumpers?

because its too expensive to double up on my speaker cable [a/p big silver oval] and i am not convinced thats its any better than jumpers.

i have also found that there is a big difference n imaging connecting the ap plus to the HF and negative to the LF

The Vinyl Adventure
11-01-2010, 19:19
PMC's will need the heaviest duty speaker cables you can find - Hamish, did you guys chuck all the Cable-talk wires out when they went under? The green pipe-like Concert wires sounded fantastic with PMC's, the decent copper stranding adding no hash to the treble and the heavier gauge keeping the bass under better control - no foo, just heavy duty decent copper and insulation that doesn't react with the strands inside. Many dealers ignored it 'cos it's a thick green pipe from the outside, but Sevenoaks Guildford (one of the few branches that listened) and Noteworthy in Aylesbury liked it and sold plenty..

I'd probably suggest connecting to the bass unit first, but others with different systems will certainly disagree...

I currently use nva ls1, which wa somewhat of a revalation within my naim system. It has 7 cores of copper, I had thought about upgrading to ls5 at some point (21 cores) but it is slightly expensive so I don't want to buy anything until I have a definate length... If anyone else has any other suggestions I will happily investigate, this forums recent hit rate for improvments to my system is very high :)

The Grand Wazoo
11-01-2010, 19:38
I don't see how anything can be better than either the same wire as is used for speaker cables or for the speakers own internal wiring. And for preference they should be the same as each other too, no?

hifi_dave
11-01-2010, 20:10
I don't see how anything can be better than either the same wire as is used for speaker cables or for the speakers own internal wiring. And for preference they should be the same as each other too, no?

You'd have a fright if you saw the crap that goes inside the majority of speakers - you really wouldn't use it for speaker cable.:stalks:

DSJR
11-01-2010, 20:37
You'd have a fright if you saw the crap that goes inside the majority of speakers - you really wouldn't use it for speaker cable.:stalks:

Like what's in here you mean...:D

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/DSCF0363.jpg

The Vinyl Adventure
11-01-2010, 20:54
I have always wondered about that, this guy came in the shop who had previously bought a pair of monitor audio b2's
he had done a very fine job of re wiring the insides ... Unfortunatly he had by passed the crossover and just wires the to drivers in series to the in side of the terminals! He actually did a neat job of the soldering!
the same guy did do a few other crazys whilst being a customer of ours:
acused us of taking the piss out of him when he found "rabbit bedding stapled to the inside" of his speakers
paired the cones of his b2's gold because "that's the difference between the bronze and gold range"
took all the cones out of a pair of revolvers and "lined them up on the floor a a centre speaker"
we eventually parted company with him as a customer after we had to call the police to remove him from the shop after an arguament about the merits of hdmi over componant conectivity
despite all this the very neat job of replacing the thin wire in his b2's (all be it incorrectly) as I said, dis get me thinking...

The Grand Wazoo
11-01-2010, 20:59
You'd have a fright if you saw the crap that goes inside the majority of speakers - you really wouldn't use it for speaker cable.:stalks:

I've seen plenty of it.
And had plenty frights!

But, I've rewired one or two pairs of speakers too!
I liked Steen Doessing's philosophy the best - I never had to rewire any of his speakers & it was easy to get matching external cables!

Spectral Morn
11-01-2010, 21:09
Surely the easiest option is just to use a bit of the same wire you are using for the speaker cable -well, what I do, anyway, my theory being that you want the same cable feeding the HF and LF?

I agree with Alex here...mostly.

When I regularly used bi-wire speakers (Ruark Equinox's) I used jumpers made from QED Genesis cable, the same as my main speaker cable at the time. This was much better than the Ruark wire ones. My Ref3A Dulcets are a bit different though...they come with Cardas high purity copper jumpers, and, well they sound best in, rather than replaced with cable jumpers...probably just my set up though.

However I would normally recommend jumpers made out of the same cable...imho not all speakers need or sound good bi-wired (thats a bit of a marketing thing imho)..bi-amped though is a different thing altogether.


Regards D S D L

hifi_dave
11-01-2010, 23:33
Bi-amp speakers is the way the whole bi-wire mess started. Back in the late 70's, some bright spark decided his bi-amp speakers sounded better with a heavy duty cable to the bass terminals and a Litz wire to the tweeter and maybe it did. However, we ended up with the same cable run to LF and HF which sounds the same or worse than a single cable run to the speakers.

What I tend to do is open up the speaker and put the HF wires on to the LF terminals and thereby removing the bi-wire facility. If this isn't easy I strip a couple of inches of insulation from the cable and pass it between the two sets of terminals. If all else fails, jumpers made from the cable work well.

Macca
11-01-2010, 23:46
I can only speak from my own experience but I have owned 3 pairs of speakers that allowed bi-wiring - Mission 731 LE, B&W 601 Mk1 and my current Celestion A2s and they all sound better bi-wired. Not night and day better but there was a difference in the sound and I preferred the bi-wire sound.

That's not to say that if I had just used cable for the jumpers it wouldn't sound just as good but its never occurred to me to try it.

hifi_dave
11-01-2010, 23:48
Well, there you go. :doh:

Macca
11-01-2010, 23:50
What?

It was this I was disputing:

' However, we ended up with the same cable run to LF and HF which sounds the same or worse than a single cable run to the speakers.'

Steve Toy
12-01-2010, 01:32
That would depend on the impedance of what is connected on either the LF or hF, certainly with valves.

I've found that bi-wiring leads to a more diffuse (perhaps open) yet less involving sound (dynamics, pace and timing seems to suffer). Speakers that don't have twin terminals are better but if they are there, a decent wired connection between LF and HF terminals yields more musical results

hifinutt
12-01-2010, 20:31
I can only speak from my own experience but I have owned 3 pairs of speakers that allowed bi-wiring - Mission 731 LE, B&W 601 Mk1 and my current Celestion A2s and they all sound better bi-wired. Not night and day better but there was a difference in the sound and I preferred the bi-wire sound.

That's not to say that if I had just used cable for the jumpers it wouldn't sound just as good but its never occurred to me to try it.

you should try some jumpers, less wire draped across your hearth and sounds as good as biwiring in some cases [imho]

MartinT
15-02-2010, 09:43
Another vote here for single cable plus jumpers, not least because the Kimber Select KS-3035 cable I use costs two arms and two legs. I use the matching silver jumpers made by Kimber and connect the main cable in to the bass driver, jumping up to the mid/treble. The Ushers seem to like it that way.

By the way, Dave, silver is the best conductor of all, then copper, then gold.

Marco
15-02-2010, 10:05
You'd have a fright if you saw the crap that goes inside the majority of speakers - you really wouldn't use it for speaker cable.:stalks:

Indeed! That's why my Lockwoods are now wired with top-notch VDH stuff - you should've seen the utter shite that was in there before! :eek:

The difference rewiring the speakers with decent internal cable and upgrading the crossover components made was nothing short of revelatory........

Trouble is, you don't think of this kind of stuff when you're using commercial speakers. The fact is, only the most expensive examples (and even then not necessarily all of those) use high quality internal cable and crossover components - out of sight, out of mind, and all that! ;)

I can just imagine the level of improvements that would be gained by those using commercial speakers from opening up the backs and having a peek at what bits are used inside. Chances are that along with a rewire, some cap, resistor and inductor upgrades would bring about massive sonic improvements, and at relatively low cost in comparison to buying a new pair of speakers....

Trust me people, the hidden potential inside your favourite boxes is just waiting to be released!!

Marco.

P.S Make sure that you understand the crossover design though before carrying out any modifications, which means getting hold of the appropriate circuit diagram, and only carrying out the job if you know what you're doing.

Macca
15-02-2010, 10:31
Can I add that if you are going to rewire and replace crossover components you might as well put the new crossovers in external boxes away from the 'speakers while your about it as this can also help to a degree. Don't know if you did this with your Tannoy's Marco?

Marco
15-02-2010, 10:46
Hi Martin,

No I haven't done that, but it would be very easy to do, as the crossovers are just on loose pieces of MDF, placed inside the cabinets, so these could be brought out and situated externally, no problem. I'm not sure of it would make a lot of difference, though... :)

Have you heard big improvements before from doing that sort of thing?

Marco.

Macca
15-02-2010, 11:08
Hi Martin,

No I haven't done that, but it would be very easy to do, as the crossovers are just on loose pieces of MDF, placed inside the cabinets, so these could be brought out and situated externally, no problem. I'm not sure of it would make a lot of difference, though... :)

Have you heard big improvements before from doing that sort of thing?

Marco.

'Big' is hard to quantify - I have done it with self-built speakers (i.e started with the crossovers inside then moved them outside later as modifications continued) - there was an audible difference, no question in my mind. I've never moved the crosover outside of a commercial speaker.

I have re-wired crap two way midi system speakers before with 79 strand and Solen caps which also makes a huge difference. Easy to do as they always have 1st order crossovers so you just hardwire the new cap in. Still fundementally crap speakers but better than they were.