View Full Version : New tonearm cable and XLR interconnects needed
selfaddict
09-01-2010, 20:09
Hello all and happy new year 2010 :).
I have just upgraded my phono stage to Ayre P-5xe. I think I need to upgrade my tonearm cable, which is at present standard Jelco one to XLR terminated one. Would you advice me to re-terminate the current Jelco tonearm cable with new XLR connectors or buy new ready terminated XLR tonearm cable?
I also found pair of Nordost Blue Heaven XLR interconnects from my draver,but would like to change these if I am to change my tonearm cable.
Any recommendations for good tonearm and interconnector combo?
My kit at present:
Garrarrd 401 turntable with Jelco SA-750bl tonearm and jelco RCA tonearm cable, Koetsu Black MC cartridge
Ayre P-5xe phono stage
Luxman L-505u integrated amplifier
Dali Helicon 800 speakers with Supra Sword speaker cables
You need to get out of the audiophool habit you know.. The existing cable you have is better than your turntable, as you may discover if the arm is ever transferred to another, quieter deck - and I'm not criticising the 401, just trying to put it all into perspective..
Nordost cables are un-shielded and, IMO a total disaster for tonearm use. Just my view, but I used Nordosts lower interconnect cables once in the shop and got loads of Taxi interference for my trouble...
If you REALLY want to change from what you have, try the Audio Origami exit cable and have XLR's fitted when you order it. I'm informed it's very good indeed...
Dave Cawley
09-01-2010, 20:41
I agree with Dave, if they are the JAC-506XLR, nothing short of £1K will better them. Why do you want to change?
Dave
Primalsea
09-01-2010, 21:20
My 401 is silent even with the volume turned right up. The only noise I hear on the run ins and run outs is the record surface noise.
Not sure if people here are overlooking the fact that the Ayre P-5xe phono stage has a balanced input ,
I think that's why Juha is asking should he replace the tonearm cable, i.e for full balanced operation.
selfaddict
09-01-2010, 22:14
You need to get out of the audiophool habit you know.. The existing cable you have is better than your turntable, as you may discover if the arm is ever transferred to another, quieter deck - and I'm not criticising the 401, just trying to put it all into perspective..
Nordost cables are un-shielded and, IMO a total disaster for tonearm use. Just my view, but I used Nordosts lower interconnect cables once in the shop and got loads of Taxi interference for my trouble...
If you REALLY want to change from what you have, try the Audio Origami exit cable and have XLR's fitted when you order it. I'm informed it's very good indeed...
I really cannot understand where the misinformation and misconseption that the Garrard 401 is not good turntable comes from. I can say that with solid plinth, properly isolated and rightly set up it will beat any modern turntable under £3000 any day:ner:. The reason why this limis is that I have not personally tested beound this, so cannot comment further.
I tested my system resently using my trusty test LP record, and for my amusement there were NO NOICE what so ever on unmodulated groove, what ever volume level I used. This has NEVER been the case with my previous turntables. The rumble people are usually referring to, seems to come from bad plinth designs, which mostly have been flimsy and hollow.
I know that dealers need to make their living and try to put old stock turntables down, but there should be some limit :lies:
selfaddict
09-01-2010, 22:23
Not sure if people here are overlooking the fact that the Ayre P-5xe phono stage has a balanced input ,
I think that's why Juha is asking should he replace the tonearm cable, i.e for full balanced operation.
This is correct. Ayre P-5xe has both XLR and RCA inputs and outputs. Best sound quality will be achieved using balanced connectors and this is the reason why I want to change my Jelco tonearm RCA connectors to XLR or replace the tonearm cable to something with has XLR connectors allready.
I am happy to use my Jelco RCA tonearm cable to start with but will change it in near future to XLR one.
Dave Cawley
09-01-2010, 22:52
OK, just buy the Jelco balanced XLR cable? But why didn't you buy it in the first place, confused.... If you bought from me, I'll do a swap.
Dave
Juha
Being an Ayre fan myself I would be very interested in your views on the P-5xe once you get it all set up. Keep us posted!
selfaddict
10-01-2010, 12:02
OK, just buy the Jelco balanced XLR cable? But why didn't you buy it in the first place, confused.... If you bought from me, I'll do a swap.
Dave
Hello Dave.
I did not buy the tonearm or the cable from you.
When I bought the Jelco SA-750bl and the Jelco RCA cable my system was not balanced. I used Luxman's integrated phono stage with RCA inputs. Now I have upgraded my phono stage to Ayre which has both XLR and RCA inputs and outputs. So to get the best, and use the phono stage as it was really designed to work, I just need tonearm cable with balanced connectors.
Dave Cawley
10-01-2010, 12:14
It isn't just the connectors, it is the way the cable is wired too. There is more to it than people think. Ask your dealer for a swap?
Regards
Dave
selfaddict
10-01-2010, 12:27
It isn't just the connectors, it is the way the cable is wired too. There is more to it than people think. Ask your dealer for a swap?
Regards
Dave
Hello Dave.
I am sure you know what you are talking about. I really like the analogue equipment you are selling. I assumed that the balanced cable was same as the RCA terminated one, only that the termination was different.
I have here the schematics and the link to the Ayre web page.
http://www.ayre.com/schematic.cfm
You can see that the pin number 1 in XLR connectors is not in use
Dave Cawley
10-01-2010, 12:38
No, the stanard cable is one signal and a screen/ground. The Jelco balanced cable is two signal and a screen/ground.
Dave
selfaddict
10-01-2010, 13:15
No, the stanard cable is one signal and a screen/ground. The Jelco balanced cable is two signal and a screen/ground.
Dave
Hello Dave.
Just sent you a PM.
My 401 is silent even with the volume turned right up. The only noise I hear on the run ins and run outs is the record surface noise.
I'm sure yours is ok Paul, but not all are and MANY of the assorted idler driven decks I've had the pleasure of also have a higher harmonic (in the midrange) gently whining in the background on very quiet LP's. Without comparing with a truly silent deck (NAS/Techies perhaps) it's difficult to describe, but once heard-never forgotten..
I really cannot understand where the misinformation and misconseption that the Garrard 401 is not good turntable comes from. I can say that with solid plinth, properly isolated and rightly set up it will beat any modern turntable under £3000 any day:ner:. The reason why this limis is that I have not personally tested beound this, so cannot comment further.
I tested my system resently using my trusty test LP record, and for my amusement there were NO NOICE what so ever on unmodulated groove, what ever volume level I used. This has NEVER been the case with my previous turntables. The rumble people are usually referring to, seems to come from bad plinth designs, which mostly have been flimsy and hollow.
I know that dealers need to make their living and try to put old stock turntables down, but there should be some limit :lies:
Firstly, I've heard many 301's and 401's (AND EVEN SOLD 401's NEW!!!) fully re-furbished and fitted to Bastin plinths, once regarded as one of the best plinths out there. Decent arms were fitted too and often Decca cartridges, which suit the Garrards very well. Compared with a NAS Spacedeck at the time, similarly armed and cartridged, the Garrards have a sort of slightly "convex" soundstage, bringing centre images out more - not a problem 'cos so many records were cut in wide-mono, rather then full L/R stereo. The Garrards are tons better than Michel Gyro or 1990 vintage LP12's though...
The NAS decks by comparison seem to give a slightly wider and deeper soundstage with little to no background noise added at all. You won't believe me until you've done the comparison, but twenty years ago when a good 401 could be had for a couple of hundred quid or far less, it was well worth having (and I still love the styling and wish I could re-locate mine and get it back). The thing is, a Spacedeck is better sounding overall IMO and definitely better with a "Heavy Kit" - and we haven't even gone onto the Hyperspace or Dias yet..
Enjoy your 401. It's a good deck whatever I say. have you got an outboard power supply for it yet (like a Wave Mechanic or similar)? A review from 1972 I read recently bemoaned the fact that the 401 motor varied its speed with variations in mains voltage, as it's not a synchronous type. This article hinted that the 301 may jave had a slightly different motor more along the lines of the Garrard "Synchro Lab" ones, where a magnet(s) was set into the rotor internally and giving some sort of synchronous operation when interacting with the coils outside...
If you don't have an external supply for the 401, perhaps you should spend a few hundred on this, rather than "upgrading" a perfectly suitable arm cable.......
selfaddict
10-01-2010, 13:39
Juha
Being an Ayre fan myself I would be very interested in your views on the P-5xe once you get it all set up. Keep us posted!
Hello Martin.
My stereo kit is packed away at the moment :( unfortunately. I am leveling the concrete floors downstairs as we speak. It will be another two weeks before it has dried and I have installed the hardwood flooring. Once ready and the stereos back downstairs I will update the forum of my findings.
selfaddict
10-01-2010, 14:11
Firstly, I've heard many 301's and 401's (AND EVEN SOLD 401's NEW!!!) fully re-furbished and fitted to Bastin plinths, once regarded as one of the best plinths out there. Decent arms were fitted too and often Decca cartridges, which suit the Garrards very well. Compared with a NAS Spacedeck at the time, similarly armed and cartridged, the Garrards have a sort of slightly "convex" soundstage, bringing centre images out more - not a problem 'cos so many records were cut in wide-mono, rather then full L/R stereo. The Garrards are tons better than Michel Gyro or 1990 vintage LP12's though...
The NAS decks by comparison seem to give a slightly wider and deeper soundstage with little to no background noise added at all. You won't believe me until you've done the comparison, but twenty years ago when a good 401 could be had for a couple of hundred quid or far less, it was well worth having (and I still love the styling and wish I could re-locate mine and get it back). The thing is, a Spacedeck is better sounding overall IMO and definitely better with a "Heavy Kit" - and we haven't even gone onto the Hyperspace or Dias yet..
Enjoy your 401. It's a good deck whatever I say. have you got an outboard power supply for it yet (like a Wave Mechanic or similar)? A review from 1972 I read recently bemoaned the fact that the 401 motor varied its speed with variations in mains voltage, as it's not a synchronous type. This article hinted that the 301 may jave had a slightly different motor more along the lines of the Garrard "Synchro Lab" ones, where a magnet(s) was set into the rotor internally and giving some sort of synchronous operation when interacting with the coils outside...
If you don't have an external supply for the 401, perhaps you should spend a few hundred on this, rather than "upgrading" a perfectly suitable arm cable.......
Hello Dave.
I can only comment on the turntables what I have personally heard. I am not saying that it is the best turntable in the word or that it does not have it's limitations. Only thing what I am saying is that for the money it is the best turntable I have ever heard. I have spend £750 for the Garrard 401 and the plinth(I could have done the plinth myself, but wanted to get something ready made for a change). Spring loaded isolation legs were another £99 and another £515 for the arm and the tonearm cable. For me this is very reasonable for the sound I get from the system with second hand Koetsu Black.
The Garrard needs time to warm up before the speed stabilizes, so it is not for everyone. But once it is warmed up the stability is fantastic. I have tested it with my electronic speed tester and it keeps 33.3RPM constant how ever long you use it. The constant speed can be verified from the strobo light as well, which is constantly on.
The external power supply has been the last thing on my "upgrade" list, because I have been more than happy for the Garrard's own power supply as it stands.
I am not upgrading the tonearm cable to get better sound from the cable itself. The only reason why I need to change the RCA terminated tonearm cable to XLR one, is to get the best out of my new(second hand) Ayre phono stage.
Apologies regarding the cable - I've seen the Jelco cable with XLR's on the end, so Dave Cawley would be easily able to advise regarding re-termination..
I only read the relevant Garrard motor article a couple of months ago, sitting in HiFi Dave's loft surrounded by old audio mags. I didn't have a scanner (and neither does he I think), but when I venture over there next I'll take mine, bring some of these mags down and scan these articles for posterity, as they're important for today's buyer of quality vintage stuff..
The 401 strobe is read off a lamp locked to the mains frequency and I agree about the thing needing a short while to fully settle. The Technics SL150 I have (and must press into service very soon) keeps the speed absolutely constant according to my 300Hz Linn strobe, but the built in strobe light often gives totally misleading results - same for my direct driven Dual 701. A separately powered strobe is vital here. Obviously the Techie SL1200/1210 used today has the speed locked to its internal clock (unless you use the pitch control) and a platter strobe is pointless really and a distraction most of the time I suggest..)
Primalsea
10-01-2010, 18:20
Fair point about the TT's Dave but I think people put too much emphasis on long term speed drift, its the short term speed accuracy that is important. Many idler drives fall down here but I believe the 401 is capable of decent results here. The problem seems to be that 401 work on a principle of balance and harmony. If they are not kept clean and in excellent working order it all goes horribly wrong. However get a good one working well and they are very good.
I also suspect that my SDS platter mat helps a lot however. Its amazing how heavy these things are and how much they deaden vibrations. Probably also the stupidly heavy slate plinth, the plaster filled plinth legs and the 3 10mm sheets of glass it all sits on helps a lot too!
You're all mad, the lot of you :D
If you don't have an external supply for the 401, perhaps you should spend a few hundred on this, rather than "upgrading" a perfectly suitable arm cable.......
I think it's better to spend no money at all. A 401 shaded pole motor does not change speed unless there is a significant voltage variation. By this I mean 20V or so. Running at a lower voltage - a series connected light bulb used to be advised - kills the sound. You want the motor to deliver loads of torque. Sure a super clean 50Hz may help but having heard all sorts of 301/401 PSU attempts I'm sure plain old mains is the most sensible.
Primalsea
10-01-2010, 19:14
I think the mains regeneration thing has been done loads before on other forums and generally most feel that it doesnt seem to work as well as expected on the 301 & 401's.
One thing the mains does have is quite a low output impedance, I suspect that this is the main factor when driving the motors on these decks.
By the way, I'm NOT MAD!!
I like what you're wearing by the way Dave, can you just stand up for a minute, I cant quite see your shoes though your window at the moment. Quick I havent got long before the mothership comes to get me.
:ner:
The Wave mechanic is all I know on these and it was designed for the purpose as the Timestep was for the Techie.
When I can, I'll locate the article and scan it for you. I'm not talking out of my backside on this, because it was a serious concern. maybe the mains is better held today...
I use a Clearaudio APG for my turntable, it does for Clearaudio as the wave mechanic does for NA i.e.
provides a very stable AC voltage for the AC motor.
Now what all this has to with a fully balanced phono setup I don't know, however I
too would like to hear how Juha gets on with the Ayre P-5xe phono stage as I have considered this myself.
DSJR if you have any experience of fully balanced operation to share that
might be more useful and relevant to this thread
Thread drift is common on this forum, don't you know.....
DNM used a fully balanced phono system IIRC, but you really have to carry that through to the end and although I don't know the Ayre amps, I hope they use fully balanced construction from phono input right through their amps, otherwise I don't think it's strictly necessary and could be more of a selling point - create a "problem" and then market a "solution" (he says :scratch:)
selfaddict
11-01-2010, 19:40
Thread drift is common on this forum, don't you know.....
DNM used a fully balanced phono system IIRC, but you really have to carry that through to the end and although I don't know the Ayre amps, I hope they use fully balanced construction from phono input right through their amps, otherwise I don't think it's strictly necessary and could be more of a selling point - create a "problem" and then market a "solution" (he says :scratch:)
Hello all.
I attach couple of links re Ayre P-5xe for info to Dave and anyone else interested in fully balanced phono stages.
I was lucky enough to find this phono stage second hand. It has been my number one phono stage for a long time.
http://www.ayre.com/PDF/postcard_P-5x.pdf
http://www.ayre.com/reviews.cfm?productid=11
Other options were BAT VK-P10 from USA
http://www.balanced.com/products/phono/Vk-P10/index.html
AQVOX PHONO 2 Ci MKII from Germany
http://www.aqvox.de/phono.html
These two are both fully balanced phono stages as well. Bat is tube and Aqvox solid stage as is Ayre. I have hear several times the little brother of the BAT VK-P10, which is BAT VK-P5, but this one does not have balanced inputs unfortunately. BAT VK-P5 is really nice phono stage with 10 tubes inside, so I can imagine thet the VK-P10 would be better again. I actually had discussions with one of the this forum members about the VK-P10 because he own it and was really happy with it.
selfaddict
15-01-2010, 21:58
Just an quick update for the cable selection "problem" I had when I started this thread. "Problem" is now solved and with the end result I was hoping to start with :).
I wrote to UK Ayre distributor who in turn e-mailed to factory Ayre in the USA. I was told that fully balanced Jelco tonearm cable( JAC-506XLR ) will work without a problem with Ayre. Jelco is wired to "industry standard way", so it will work on most if not all balanced systems without modifications :
http://www.scotaudio.com/wiring.htm
Now I just need to wait the concrete to dry downstairs so I can get the floor installed and start testing the phono stage and enjoy the music. Thats what this hobby is all about anyway... :exactly:
No idea how much the Jelco cable is but another alternative would be Audio Origami, Johnnie does a tonearm cable using a Cardas din plug to XLR connectors for about £100ish.
selfaddict
17-02-2010, 22:17
I have finally moved my hifi downstairs and had a change to test the Ayre phono stage.
It took me couple of days to realize that higher the gain, higher the backround noise as well. I thought the hummmm must be lack of grounding and/or ground loop. Ayre Gain is adjustable from 50 to 70 dB in balanced mode and from 44 to 64 dB on unbalanced mode. So for now I setled to the 60dB gain using balanced inputs and outputs. And this sounds good for my ears.
Another thing which supriced me is how the loading adjustments affect the sound. Using Ayre with Koetsu Black I came to an conclusion that 100 ohms is best for Koetsu on my system. There is a possibility to go even lower using DIY resistors soldered to male RCA's and plugged in to spare inputs. This is something I will test in the future.
It has been a steep learning curve, but this is actually my first adjustable phono stage. The previous ones have allways been inside integrated amplifier and non adjustable.
The Grand Wazoo
18-02-2010, 00:07
Juha,
I posted some notes on my experiences with loading a Koetsu Black which may be of interest to you. They're here:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2907
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