View Full Version : Is the Marco system the best thing since...?
Steve Toy
09-01-2010, 05:08
Answer:
The methodology behind Marco's system is what is important not the end result.
Too many of the anti-Marco or anti-AOS brigade fail to see that.
Indeed, if anyone did set out blindly to replicate either my or Marco's sytems they would earn zero respect. Besides, that would be more than a bit weird.... :stalks:
Remember campers, it's the methodology that's important, not the end result. There is more than one path to Nirvana.
Would anyone like to tell us what they understand by our methodology of building a musically involving hi-fi system?
Remember campers, it's the methodology that's important, not the end result. There is more than one path to Nirvana.
Would anyone like to tell us what they understand by our methodology of building a musically involving hi-fi system?
I think there are many here who have a good sounding systems and very individual set ups
I leave it for others to think about the methodology but may add my own thoughts latter
The methodology behind Marco's system is what is important not the end result.
Which methodology are you referring to, Steve ? :scratch:
Probably I missed a thread or two, so it is not clear to me.
No methodology here, just tried different stuff till I found a sound I liked. You could call it pragmatism, or (possibly more accurately) cl00less n00bism.
Indeed, if anyone did set out blindly to replicate either my or Marco's sytems they would earn zero respect. Besides, that would be more than a bit weird.... :stalks:
Leaving aside the issue of earning respect (I'm far too old and far too ugly to give a damn about that), why would it be weird? If I heard it, thought 'That's the best system I've heard ever!' surely it would be reasonable rather than weird to want to replicate it? Omitting any part of it might after all, make it not as good.
Ali Tait
09-01-2010, 08:39
Indeed.Why go through years of searching and a great deal of money unessessarily?
Peter Galbavy
09-01-2010, 08:40
Yeah, I'll go with pragmatism over any methodology. Or rather practical pragmatism as the methodology.
I suspect we get here - and please let's not try to define where 'here' is as it is very different for each of us! - through a limited number of ways. For me it's a combination of itchy upgraditis/drooling and fixing specific problems as an when I notice them.
A rather odd for instance; My current speakers are here because they're red. No, really! I was revamping my dining room/rear reception into a stereo music / chilling room and it was turning red in decor terms. Then I stumble across the anniversary edition of the Focal 826W speakers in red on their website when I went to look at some specs for my existing speakers. "Cor!" me thinks, but no - no money. A week later I am ordering them blind, listening test free. I could do that because I already had the slighty smaller 816Ws in the 5.1 system and I loved them. After the hassle with the first pair - which I would not have figured out had I not known that they could have been better from owning the other pair! - these are lovely. To me. Lovely to me. That's all that's important!
So, while some have a formal approach to getting the absolute best that they can from their set-ups, I certainly don't. Each change, move, upgrade etc. is entirely unique. And fun!
Haselsh1
09-01-2010, 08:48
No disrepect to anyone here but I'll go with what my ears and emotions tell me are correct and what my pocket can afford.
It is well known that we each perceive sounds in a different manner so what is good for the goose is definitely not good for the gander. I used to be able to hear the bats in the garden squeeking but now I'm getting on for fifty one, those days are over. My system suits my ears and although it's probably not the best for the budget, it is the best for me. It is however under constant change and will remain so until my plans are complete. I do have an end to all of this upgrading that I am hoping will see me into retirement.
So, Marco's system...? I reckon that Marco's system is perfect for Marco. Just how the hell could it be perfect for anyone else...???
The Grand Wazoo
09-01-2010, 11:50
Sorry, I shan't be replying to your question Steve, as I find it just a teeny weeny weeny bit patronising.
..........but I do agree with this:
I reckon that Marco's system is perfect for Marco. Just how the hell could it be perfect for anyone else...???
The Vinyl Adventure
09-01-2010, 12:00
I assume you are talking about taking a holistic aproach to a hifi system ie looking at everything from the electric comeing out the wall to the sound waves leaving the speaker - getting everything that is possible out of the equipment you have... Seems sencible to me! Don't forget steve I have a similar amp set up to you ... Who you calling wierd eh?! ;)
I would say though having not heard marco system that it is perhaps the best thing since marco previous system ... Probably a little bit better in fact :)
if someone, without hearing it, went out and blindly bought all of Marcos equpment and then put it in a room without any thought to speaker positioning or mains tweekery or cable choice then I would suspect they were a bit odd! On the other hand if someone listened to Marcos system and literally wet them selves with how good it is, chatted with marco at length about it then with Marcos help constructed a system that was very similar in equipment and approach... Then fine they just like the same as marco
The Vinyl Adventure
09-01-2010, 12:02
.... You can insert your own grammer ino that one I can't be arsed to try and make it better
alfie2902
09-01-2010, 12:26
Answer:
The methodology behind Marco's system is what is important not the end result.
Too many of the anti-Marco or anti-AOS brigade fail to see that.
Indeed, if anyone did set out blindly to replicate either my or Marco's sytems they would earn zero respect. Besides, that would be more than a bit weird.... :stalks:
Remember campers, it's the methodology that's important, not the end result. There is more than one path to Nirvana.
Would anyone like to tell us what they understand by our methodology of building a musically involving hi-fi system?
Steve have you been at the sherry this morning mate!?
Surely the end result is what it's all about & enjoying the fun on the way!?
Methodology can only be judged by the end result!! & being as Hi-Fi is so personal & subjective it only really means anything to its owner & user!
I think I'm missing your point here Steve.
Steve Toy
09-01-2010, 12:54
Chris, it wasn't meant to be patronising but all the AOS detractors on other sites, notably those who mention Marco fail to understand the methodology. They are either incredibly stupid or deliberately obtuse in that respect when statements along the lines of having to agree here that the Marco system is the best... the Marco way or the highway!" Etc. Etc.
Nobody here, red speakers aside ;) seems to have any difficulty.
Hamish, your system is likely to become even more uncannily like mine in coming weeks/months especially with your stand upgrade and if I get a pair of PMCs but that makes it a two-way process.
Same DAC, same pre, same power, same i/cs, same speakers, same stands but still highly individual.
Steve Toy
09-01-2010, 13:03
Surely the end result is what it's all about & enjoying the fun on the way!?
Methodology can only be judged by the end result!!
Indeed, but there is more than one end result that works and the same end result doesn't necessarily work in every situation and for every individual.
The methodology of letting your ears be the final arbiter is fairly consistent though unless you are a narrow-minded reductionistic gullible consumer protecting objectivist.
Answer:
The methodology behind Marco's system is what is important not the end result.
Too many of the anti-Marco or anti-AOS brigade fail to see that.
Indeed, if anyone did set out blindly to replicate either my or Marco's sytems they would earn zero respect. Besides, that would be more than a bit weird.... :stalks:
Remember campers, it's the methodology that's important, not the end result. There is more than one path to Nirvana.
Would anyone like to tell us what they understand by our methodology of building a musically involving hi-fi system?
QUE??????????? :confused:
I'm a pragmatist - end of........................
Marco system is the best methodology for Marco verbaitum.
For every one else they will have their own and equally valid method also verbaitum.
Indeed, but there is more than one end result that works and the same end result doesn't necessarily work in every situation and for every individual.
The methodology of letting your ears be the final arbiterr is fairly consistent thoughunless you aare a narrow-minded reductionistic gullible consumer protecting objectivist.
Well, yes, but surely that's a statement of the bleedin' obvious? What works in one room won't always work as well in another; some people have limited musical tastes for which a certain 'solution' will be ideal, but which would be limiting for those with wider tastes etc etc etc.
It seems to me that the OP, like the one that started the flat earth thread, is making something quite simple that very few would dispute ('your ears are the final arbiter') seem unnecessarily complicated and arcane.
Heres my take on methodology
1) Keep circuitry simple (shorter wiring is good) use the best parts you can.
2) Try not to complicate your system. Get the basics right, best not to fix your system via using duller cables address it in other areas
3) Valves are hot lol
4) good isolation and clean mains
5) a preference for a good big speaker over a good small speaker
6) Measurements are important but trust your own ears first
I am sure there more
Answer:
The methodology behind Marco's system is what is important not the end result.
Too many of the anti-Marco or anti-AOS brigade fail to see that.
Indeed, if anyone did set out blindly to replicate either my or Marco's sytems they would earn zero respect. Besides, that would be more than a bit weird.... :stalks:
Remember campers, it's the methodology that's important, not the end result. There is more than one path to Nirvana.
Would anyone like to tell us what they understand by our methodology of building a musically involving hi-fi system?
I'd have thought his methodology was personal to him, it isn't universally applicable if it works for him then great.
For me it's a blend of aesthetics, sound and cost, trying to apply anyone else's methodology is doomed to failure as all things aren't equal.
To be honest if there are anti Marco/AOS types, then maybe the question needs to be directed to them.
alfie2902
09-01-2010, 13:53
Indeed, but there is more than one end result that works and the same end result doesn't necessarily work in every situation and for every individual.
The methodology of letting your ears be the final arbiterr is fairly consistent thoughunless you aare a narrow-minded reductionistic gullible consumer protecting objectivist.
I'm not sure why people have a problem with how other people choose their own Hi-Fi let alone be derogatory about others methodology!
If a system or componant connects with me emotionally i.e. via my ears, that works for me! If someone else gains as much pleasure from choosing their system from objective measurments & that works for them then, fine. It seems the problem comes when we are not respectful of each others choice of methodology & go on to be derogatory & then on to try and reason that our way is better & even to try & convert to our way of thinking!
I don't believe in God but would not be be disrespectful to anyone that does believe let alone try & convert them from their way of thinking!
Live & let live & offer some respect I say.
Alfe there is no problem about peoples choosen methodology
alfie2902
09-01-2010, 14:15
Hi John,
I was just addressing the last line from this post, which does seem a little antagonistic to say the least!
Indeed, but there is more than one end result that works and the same end result doesn't necessarily work in every situation and for every individual.
The methodology of letting your ears be the final arbiter is fairly consistent though unless you are a narrow-minded reductionistic gullible consumer protecting objectivist.
Steve Toy
09-01-2010, 14:20
Indeed. Those are the types above who are entitled to their views but can spare us their pearls of wisdom on this site. Such privation won't do us too much harm.
alfie2902
09-01-2010, 14:28
Indeed. Those are the types above who are entitled to their views but can spare us their pearls of wisdom on this site. Such privation won't do us too much harm.
Hi Steve,
This is your & Marcos forum & that is perfectly fine! :)
All I am saying is if you write derogatory things about their methology then you have to expect it written back elsewhere! Then to moan about what is written elsewhere is hypocritical is it not?
Most people will purchase something because they like the sound
Ali Tait
09-01-2010, 15:25
I bought the Audioromy because it was cheap and had the power I was looking for.Sounded very good from the off,but better with nos valves and a little tweaking.That's the beauty of having a go with a soldering iron,if you don't like the sound,change it! Safety aspects,especially with valve amps,must come first of course.
Hi Alfie,
This is your & Marcos forum & that is perfectly fine!
All I am saying is if you write derogatory things about their methology then you have to expect it written back elsewhere! Then to moan about what is written elsewhere is hypocritical is it not?
We could say the exact same thing regarding the perpetrators of the above elsewhere we're referring to!!
It's a matter of ascertaining where it all originates from and who are most guilty of instigating the unpleasantness. We maintain that the 'objectivists' are (generally) most guilty, as their sneering disdain for people who trust their ears is often what starts the problems. A bit of respect though on both sides for each other's valid opinions would go a long way to solving the problem!
The crux of the matter here of course is that 'objectivists' often feel that their opinions are the more valid, simply because science appears to confirm many of their arguments. However, as we all know, science doesn't always have all the answers. If the 'objectivists' would learn to acknowledge this fact, then much of the fighting wouldn't happen in the first place.
It's the arrogance of 'objectivists' thinking that their opinion is more valid because some inconclusive 'scientific fact' appears to support their opinion that gets the backs up of the subjectivists.
As I said, mutual tolerance and respect of each other's belief mechanisms is the key, but sadly, I'm afraid that's unlikely to happen....
I'll get to the rest of this thread later, chaps! :)
Marco.
Given all the crap this forum has endured so far this New Year I'm struggling to see why we need another inflammatory thread - if I'm honest, its putting me right off AoS at the moment - sorry to have to say that, but I come here for light hearted banter about hifi and music, and there ain't much of that going on the last week! :(
The Vinyl Adventure
09-01-2010, 16:14
I'm with alex
That's more like it Joe! ;)
mercury1 (trolling as Dave K)
09-01-2010, 16:20
And I'm keeping well out of this one!!! You'll have to guess where my sympathies lie :) .
I'm with the baker's daughter ! :D
Haselsh1
09-01-2010, 16:27
With one in the oven no doubt...:eyebrows:
She was only the baker's daughter, but she was always ready for a roll.
Haselsh1
09-01-2010, 16:33
Roll on the drums...!!! (Sandwich on the piano)
I'm with stoopid -------->
anthonyTD
09-01-2010, 16:45
i give up!
:lolsign:
I'm with A... (bought some bread, btw) :lol:
LOL, guys! :eyebrows:
Given all the crap this forum has endured so far this New Year I'm struggling to see why we need another inflammatory thread - if I'm honest, its putting me right off AoS at the moment - sorry to have to say that, but I come here for light hearted banter about hifi and music, and there ain't much of that going on the last week!
Hi Alex,
I completely understand and appreciate how you feel. Forums are often like soap operas: depending on what this week's 'storylines' are often depends on whether you choose to 'tune-in' or not.
So perhaps it's time for us to reach for the collective remote control and change the channel! Agreed? :)
Now is there any good reason why this thread should remain open, given that Steve has successfully 'flagged up' an observation he felt was necessary to make? :cool:
Time for some love in da house, me thinks! :grouphug:
Marco.
L
Now is there any good reason why this thread should remain open, given that Steve has successfully 'flagged up' an observation he felt was necessary to make? .
Nah. Lock the bugger!
Hi Alfie,
We could say the exact same thing regarding the perpetrators of the above eleswhere we're referring to!!
It's a matter of ascertaining where it all originates from and who are most guilty of instigating the unpleasantness. We maintain that the 'objectivists' are (generally) most guilty, as their sneering disdain for people who trust their ears is often what starts the problems. A bit of respect though on both sides for each other's equally valid opinions would go a long way to solving the problem!
I'll get to the rest of this thread later, chaps! :)
Marco.
So who's been dissin your system/methodology then:scratch:
Has everybody had their credit card statements in this week to make everyone grumpy?? , the posts on page 4 were more like the sillyness we all love and enjoy.:)
Beechwoods
09-01-2010, 17:52
Time for some love in da house, me thinks! :grouphug:
Damn right... :beer:
(I'll have to call up some of the baker's daughters' friends...)
So who's been dissin your system/methodology then:scratch:
Shuggz, ok just 'cos you asked nicely, check out the thread about AoS and me on this unmoderated hell-hole: http://hddaudio.net/punbb/viewtopic.php?id=604
Jon, you're right! :)
Fancy breaking out de ganja, man? :peace:
Marco.
Shuggz, ok just 'cos you asked nicely, check out the thread about AoS and me on this unmoderated hell-hole: http://hddaudio.net/punbb/viewtopic.php?id=604
Jon, you're right! :)
Fancy breaking out de ganja, man? :peace:
Marco.
Love and Piece man, i havn't indulged for a while now, my Mrs hates the stuff:( those were the days late night viewings of Pink floyd The Wall getting chilled at the Odean in Brighton, you be off your nut just on the fumes when you walked in:eyebrows: The film didn't start until midnight as far as i can remember, i would be pissed as well then fall alseep halfway through
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW0uW9ZxzsY
Gotta be the snow I reckon
Don't worry, opening a nice Côtes du Rhône, I'll be back to my old chilled out self soon enough! ;) :cool:
Could be the snow, going a bit stir crazy I reckon! Anyway, yes, let's all have a cuddle and cheer up!
:grouphug:
Good idea Alex, have a drink just cracked open a Tangle Foot, Mmmmmm
"Would anyone like to tell us what they understand by our methodology of building a musically involving hi-fi system? "
I think that both you (Steve) and Marco are just doing what we all do , building a system with components that you like,
no mystery there and with so much available it's not surprising that we all end up with something different yet enjoyable.
It’s all part of the fun.
Given all the crap this forum has endured so far this New Year I'm struggling to see why we need another inflammatory thread - if I'm honest, its putting me right off AoS at the moment - sorry to have to say that, but I come here for light hearted banter about hifi and music, and there ain't much of that going on the last week! :(
I was thinking much the same, however we seem to have moved past the hiatus and it's business as usual.
Regards
(I'll have to call up some of the baker's daughters' friends...)
Marco (replied to the wrong poster :doh:)
Thanks for the link, well first up I've never heard of that place looks interesting. However I'm not sure why you and Steve are bothered about what they have to say, a certain number of those individuals appeared to be more about confrontation than reconciliation.
I note that some are criticising your mission statement, so why join in the first place :scratch:, the whole thing just seems like sour grapes.
Personally I find it amusing that the admin over there has locked the thread and has informed posters that insulting personal remarks will be removed, yet some posters are accusing you of not being very articulate, I guess some folks never learn ;)
People disagree tis the natural order of things, my system has speakers that I've built myself, which I'm sure can be improved upon but I know that advice will be met with sneering patronising statements in some quarters but in others I'll get honest decent advice.
From my experience there is no correct over riding methodology, there are aspects that are a given, the rest is open to experimentation, hence why I'm here.
I hope the forum doesn't turn into some sort of over zealous willy waving, that would be sad, but as some of the willies have drifted into the ether, there may be hope :)
Peace and Love
Shuggz
Haselsh1
10-01-2010, 11:22
Shuggz, you know, I would dearly love to build my own loudspeakers but I'm afraid my carpentry skills will never be of the Jesus level. I would love a really nice pair of sturdy transmission lines, you know, lovely and compact and really high quality using some exotic drivers. Dream on...!!!
Haselsh1
10-01-2010, 11:25
Don't worry, opening a nice Côtes du Rhône, I'll be back to my old chilled out self soon enough! ;) :cool:
Could be the snow, going a bit stir crazy I reckon! Anyway, yes, let's all have a cuddle and cheer up!
:grouphug:
You know I find that as the years go by, a really nice bottle of the red stuff helps no end. My hi-fi sounds so much better and even if it doesn't, I no longer care...!
My current methodology - as cheap as reasonably possible if not donated to the cause, from my own stockpile of goodies and thrown together in the cabinet that houses it...
Amazing how good it all sounds really :lol:
Stratmangler
10-01-2010, 11:52
Shuggz, you know, I would dearly love to build my own loudspeakers but I'm afraid my carpentry skills will never be of the Jesus level. I would love a really nice pair of sturdy transmission lines, you know, lovely and compact and really high quality using some exotic drivers. Dream on...!!!
Why not build a kit from IPL Acoustics (http://www.iplacoustics.co.uk/ipl_acoustics_____transmission_l.htm) ?
They're not overly expensive, and most kits have the option of a veneered cabinet kit - all you have to do is glue the thing together.
You might need to wield a soldering iron too.
Check out their end of year clearout sale - there are some ready built cabs there.
Chris:)
anthonyTD
10-01-2010, 12:09
Why not build a kit from IPL Acoustics (http://www.iplacoustics.co.uk/ipl_acoustics_____transmission_l.htm) ?
They're not overly expensive, and most kits have the option of a veneered cabinet kit - all you have to do is glue the thing together.
You might need to wield a soldering iron too.
Check out their end of year clearout sale - there are some ready built cabs there.
Chris:)
i agree chris,
ivan is a nice character and he builds good speakers too, if you get chance have read about my visit to his premises on my website [a few years ago now]
regards,anthony,TD...
Mike Reed
10-01-2010, 12:17
My current methodology - as cheap as reasonably possible if not donated to the cause, from my own stockpile of goodies and thrown together in the cabinet that houses it...
And there I was thinking you were describing your home-brew prowess!
Shuggz, you know, I would dearly love to build my own loudspeakers but I'm afraid my carpentry skills will never be of the Jesus level. I would love a really nice pair of sturdy transmission lines, you know, lovely and compact and really high quality using some exotic drivers. Dream on...!!!
It's not that difficult if you look at the IPL kits as mentioned, my build was based on the Lynn Olsen Ariel transmission line. The crossovers are outside the enclosure and housed underneath, all wired with solid silver core, materials used were solid oak, birch wood ply and MDF.
They sound lovely (well I would say that) but I'd like to see how they measure up via some testing gear, but I've no idea where or how to start.
I'll stick some pictures up soon, if you decide to build from scratch see if you can get hold of a decent chippy as he/she will have access to routers etc, you can do the rest yourself. The final finish dependent on what you choose can be a PITA.
Stratmangler
10-01-2010, 12:51
i agree chris,
ivan is a nice character and he builds good speakers too, if you get chance have read about my visit to his premises on my website [a few years ago now]
regards,anthony,TD...
Do you have a URL for your site ?
Cheers
Chris :)
Do you have a URL for your site ?
Cheers
Chris :)
Here you go http://www.tubedistinctions.co.uk/main.htm
Stratmangler
10-01-2010, 13:12
Here you go http://www.tubedistinctions.co.uk/main.htm
Ta !
Chris:)
jandl100
11-01-2010, 09:35
Be-jeezus - this started out as a scary thread.
Reminded me of the Bad Old Days of the flat earth Linn/Naim thought police in the 70s & 80s .... we really don't wanna go back there .... :doh:
Steve Toy
11-01-2010, 10:26
Eh?
That was most AoSers reaction to your OP!
Haselsh1
11-01-2010, 13:56
Be-jeezus - this started out as a scary thread.
Reminded me of the Bad Old Days of the flat earth Linn/Naim thought police in the 70s & 80s .... we really don't wanna go back there .... :doh:
Yeah this just reminded me of Hi-Fi Answers around 1977. Do you remember...??? Linn/Grace/Supex...??? How intensely narrow minded. That magazine wouldn't even respond to your query unless you had a Linn front end. I'm so pleased that in 1983 I bought an early Logic DM101 in preference to a Linn. I still feel I made the better choice.
And there I was thinking you were describing your home-brew prowess!
Chance would be a fine thing :D
Seriously, I *did* the religions decades ago and today, I think that if the component parts are basically properly sorted, you won't have the balance tipping all over the place with a change of just one component (as we had with Linn/Naim gear). Once the gear is sorted, the room can be attended to, although I rail against sorting the gear around the room unless it's essential.. Just my thouhts at this present time..
Steve Toy
11-01-2010, 16:58
That was most AoSers reaction to your OP!
I think you should speak for yourself. Others are capable of doing likewise.
Ok, I didn't get an answer for my post #3, but by reading the various posts that followed I think I compiled a general idea of the methodology implied.
What I can say, is that everybody I know in this hobby uses the same methodology : it is called (in computers' software jargon) the "try and fail" method. There's nothing negative about the word "fail", no worries.
The method is, you try different solutions, based on current appreciation and knowledge. These (intermediate) solutions are sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse.
Each step enriches your current appreciation and knowledge and (sometimes) redefines your goals.
You stop iterating when you reach a satisfactory compromise.
Is that it ? The methodology ? Or I got it all wrong (again) ?
I think you should speak for yourself. Others are capable of doing likewise.
Those who have responded have mostly said 'WTF?!'
Stratmangler
11-01-2010, 19:01
What I can say, is that everybody I know in this hobby uses the same methodology : it is called (in computers' software jargon) the "try and fail" method. There's nothing negative about the word "fail", no worries.
I'd describe it as "suck it and see", but it's the same thing.
Is that it ? The methodology ? Or I got it all wrong (again) ?
I too am somewhat underwhelmed by this revelation.;)
Chris:)
Some might call it empirical! :)
Some might call it empirical! :)
As in the empirical's new clothes?
Stratmangler
11-01-2010, 19:13
As in the empirical's new clothes?
:D
Chris:)
As in the empirical's new clothes?
LOL... not quite, but close enough! :lolsign:
Some might call it empirical! :)
It's more accurate, you're right. ;)
Steve Toy
11-01-2010, 20:30
Empiricism is good. Everyone used their ears, right? and went with what they liked.
Those who have responded have mostly said 'WTF?!'
That's bollocks Joe.
That's bollocks Joe.
I think you'll find it isn't. Everyone said "We just use our ears"; no-one was able to guess what 'our methodology' was; no-one was wishing to duplicate Marco's system. In short, like the Flat Earth thread, the OP was a strawman, and a whole lot of fuss about nothing very much.
Steve Toy
11-01-2010, 20:45
Perhaps methodology was a big word for the champion of obtuseness. I think most got the idea of the journey being as important as the destination or the methodology/result. Using your ears is the methodology.
I'm wondering Joe if you have anything positive to contribute that may actually enlighten.
Stratmangler
11-01-2010, 20:58
Perhaps methodology was a big word for the champion of obtuseness. I think most got the idea of the journey being as important as the destination or the methodology/result. Using your ears is the methodology.
I'm wondering Joe if you have anything positive to contribute that may actually enlighten.
What are you on about ?
Chris:scratch:
Perhaps methodology was a big word for the champion of obtuseness. I think most got the idea of the journey being as important as the destination or the methodology/result. Using your ears is the methodology.
I'm wondering Joe if you have anything positive to contribute that may actually enlighten.
My posts 4 and 5 were enlightening, well written, to the point and positive, which is more than can be said about your post above.
Empiricism is good. Everyone used their ears, right? and went with what they liked.
Exactly. There's no exact science or technique for choosing audio components. Just a few clues. ;)
As I said before, even objectivists do the same. Even if they (sometimes may) claim otherwise.
Remember campers, it's the methodology that's important, not the end result.
The end result isn't important? :scratch: The only reason audio equipment exists is the end result. If the end result (reproducing sound) didn't exist audio equipment wouldn't exist.
Frankly, if the end result isn't important to you then you might as well go buy a £20 Tesco special.
Would anyone like to tell us what they understand by our methodology of building a musically involving hi-fi system?
Seeing as you're not interested in the end result (listening to music), then I'm totally confused as to what your methodology is. Mine is quite simple. If it sounds better to me then I go for it. If it doesn't then I don't, finances depending. What other methodology should there be?
Steve Toy
11-01-2010, 22:06
My posts 4 and 5 were enlightening, well written, to the point and positive
They were anything but...
In your (mistaken) opinion.
Stratmangler
11-01-2010, 22:15
They were anything but...
I can't see your problem Steve - Joe's posts are very concise.
No methodology here, just tried different stuff till I found a sound I liked. You could call it pragmatism, or (possibly more accurately) cl00less n00bism.
Leaving aside the issue of earning respect (I'm far too old and far too ugly to give a damn about that), why would it be weird? If I heard it, thought 'That's the best system I've heard ever!' surely it would be reasonable rather than weird to want to replicate it? Omitting any part of it might after all, make it not as good.
Chris:)
Given all the crap this forum has endured so far this New Year I'm struggling to see why we need another inflammatory thread
Not quite "WTF" but surely you got my drift?
Chaps,
Before this gets any dafter than it already is! :lol:
What Steve means is that the anti-AoS (or anti-Marco) brigade elsewhere are accusing us of sending out the message that the only way to achieve a musically involving hi-fi system is to buy the same equipment we use, as our equipment is apparently the best thing since sliced bread and nothing else does it better. Therefore for others to achieve the same, they must arrive at the same end result - 'the same end result' being another description for the same equipment.
This of course is utter bollocks - it's not what we're saying at all!!
What we are doing is recommending a system building methodology; namely the process (not necessarily the equipment) that we believe is likely to give the best result with a system in terms of sound-per-pound value, and ultimately with it, musical satisfaction.
Is this making any more sense than the way Steve has been explaining it so far? :)
I'll leave Steve to outline his own system building methodology, and I'll outline mine meanwhile to give people an idea of what we mean by a "system building methodology". Then others can outline theirs..... That's what Steve had intended to achieve on this thread at the beginning.
Ok here is mine (in order of importance - see it as a 'chain' from beginning to end):
1) Ensure that the mains set-up for the system is optimised and so supplied by a dedicated feed from the incoming house mains supply, purely to power the system and nothing else, in order that the system is isolated from the electrical noise other household appliances put back into the mains supply (computers, TVs, fluorescent lighting and mobile phones are particularly bad at this), so if using these items, plug them into the house ring main which is separate from the dedicated spur for your hi-fi system. A separate, dedicated, earth for the hi-fi system is also preferable. You're looking to achieve the lowest impedance possible on your mains supply. Mine was measured at as low as .32 Ohms!
2) Ensure that the system is supported properly on purpose-built equipment racks; ones which are actually designed through construction to give internal circuitry proper isolation from the sonically detrimental effects of vibration transfer (i.e. microphony), making sure in the process that anything containing large mains transformer(s) are placed as far away as possible from source and control components. Simply plonking your gear on an old sideboard, or whatever, any old way won’t do.
3) Ensure that high quality (but not necessarily expensive) cables are used throughout the system, both in terms of mains leads and interconnects, as well as speaker cables. Make sure that all cables are arranged neatly, so that mains leads are kept as far away as possible from signal carrying cables.
4) Ensure that if speaker stands are necessary, ones which have been properly designed for the purpose are used.
Et voilà, you now have a proper 'platform' for your system that will enable it to perform optimally at all times. You will then, in turn, hear the most from your chosen components! :cool:
There are a few other things I would also do, but the above are the basics which we feel are required for any system to perform optimally.
Now it's just a matter of choosing the actual components themselves and speakers (which of course doesn't have to be what Steve or I use!! :rolleyes:)
More on that bit later ;)
Marco.
Stratmangler
12-01-2010, 00:05
Who are this anti-AoS (or anti-Marco) brigade of which you speak ?
The rest is just common sense !
Chris:scratch:
Chris, it's bollocks we've had to put up with from people on certain other forums. Sorry, mate, I'm not naming names - you either know about it or you don't. If you don't then consider yourself lucky! ;)
Agreed - it's common sense, but a surprising number of people don't do this - sometimes people who own very expensive systems in terms of the components themselves, so in effect, they NEVER realise the full sonic potential of their investment.
We advocate that a less expensive system with carefully selected and matched components optimally set-up, as per above, will always outperform a much more expensive system thrown together willy-nilly.
I know this all seems entirely logical, but it's amazing how many people still don't do it - they'd rather keep spending money on boxes or speakers, ignoring instead what allows them to hear the full potential of what their equipment is capable of......! :doh:
Not sorting out the 'foundation' for your system properly is often what leads to constant 'upgraditis' - and going round in circles trying to achieve 'nirvana', but never quite getting there......
Does anyone here recognise that feeling?
Marco.
Steve Toy
12-01-2010, 01:44
I think the problem so far has taken the form of the following:
Anti-AOS folks taking snippets of what's said here and then coming up with the following twisted conclusions:
Must use Big Tannoys
Must have a Technics SL1210 with Jelco arm, Denon DL103 cart, step-up transformer and Timestep PSU
Must use a heavily modified by Audiocom International Sony Transport/DAC
Must use a Croft pre (as if... :laugh:)
Must use a Tube Distinctions p/p power amp
Must stick the lot on Mana
Must use Mark Grant cables and Van Den Hul cables for speakers and digital i/c.
In summary: must do as Marco in terms of specific kit choices.
In reality, what we're saying is pay attention to all components and ancilliaries including the stuff like stands, mains setup and cables that the objectivists say will make no difference, pay attention to hierarchy through the chain - what's downstream will show up what's relatively lacking upstream, choose all the bits according to both short and long-term listening results, let the engineers who design and make your kit take care of the measurements to ensure they work safely and won't add clearly audible sonic nasties to the music signal but beyond that just use your ears and above all, select or reject changes according to how they enhance your music listening pleasure, making sense of the musical message along the way.
As for the flat earth issue, that was about the emboldened bit above. It wasn't about box-swaps for those made by Linn or Naim.
I think the problem so far has taken the form of the following:
Anti-AOS folks taking snippets of what's said here and then coming up with the following twisted conclusions:
Must use Big Tannoys
Must have a Technics SL1210 with Jelco arm, Denon DL103 cart, step-up transformer and Timestep PSU
Must use a heavily modified by Audiocom International Sony Transport/DAC
Must use a Croft pre (as if... :laugh:)
Must use a Tube Distinctions p/p power amp
Must stick the lot on Mana
Must use Mark Grant cables and Van Den Hul cables for speakers and digital i/c.
In summary: must do as Marco in terms of specific kit choices.
Hahahahaha.... If that's what they think then it's amazing just how dense these clowns are!! :lol: :mental:
Marco.
Steve Toy
12-01-2010, 01:59
PS: just playing choons, fell asleep and was woken up by my drummer neighbour (!) asking me to turn down the music that wasn't clipping at 28wpc max.
I live in a (link) detached house.
Who are this anti-AoS (or anti-Marco) brigade of which you speak ?
The rest is just common sense !
Chris:scratch:
Here you go http://hddaudio.net/punbb/viewtopic.php?id=604
Really is a load of whining bollocks IMHO
Chris, it's bollocks we've had to put up with from people on certain other forums. Sorry, mate, I'm not naming names - you either know about it or you don't. If you don't then consider yourself lucky! ;)
Agreed - it's common sense, but a surprising number of people don't do this - sometimes people who own very expensive systems in terms of the components themselves, so in effect, they NEVER realise the full sonic potential of their investment.
We advocate that a less expensive system with carefully selected and matched components optimally set-up, as per above, will always outperform a much more expensive system thrown together willy-nilly.
I know this all seems entirely logical, but it's amazing how many people still don't do it - they'd rather keep spending money on boxes or speakers, ignoring instead what allows them to hear the full potential of what their equipment is capable of......! :doh:
Not sorting out the 'foundation' for your system properly is often what leads to constant 'upgraditis' - and going round in circles trying to achieve 'nirvana', but never quite getting there......
Does anyone here recognise that feeling?
Marco.
I'm confused about what could allow me to hear the full potential of my system... :scratch:
Oh, well, nevermind. :cool:
What bit (or bits) are you confused about, Dimitri? :)
Marco.
I am confused about what (outside changing certain parts or adding others) could allow me to hear the full potential of my actual system.
I say that because you seem to say that "it's amazing how many people still don't do it - they'd rather keep spending money on boxes or speakers, ignoring instead what allows them to hear the full potential of what their equipment is capable of......!".
As I don't know what could allow me to "hear the full potential", I'm confused.
Are you talking about speaker placement, something like that ?
Or perhaps, this phrase is only addressed to certain people, but it doesn't concern me ?
The Grand Wazoo
12-01-2010, 10:24
OK, so your 'methodology' is that accessories are in fact 'necessaries' and a good hi-fi can be made significantly better by addressing matters other than the main components alone. This approach should be universally effective no matter what the gear.
I think most of us are aware of the benefits that this approach can give – even if we don't all apply it to the nth degree.
However, given that your choice of equipment is so very different from what it apparently once was, and that I'd guess you probably used the same fastidious approach to set-up in previous system incarnations, I can understand how some people might think it's the items of equipment that are the key. This is especially likely as it's usually the hardware that most people focus upon.
The above is not the reason for this post. The following is, though:
Alex & others have expressed a little despair at all of this and now, I'm afraid, it's my turn. I didn't want to enter into making such a comment because this type of discussion can perpetuate the very problem that it addresses. However, recently for the first time I've been considering whether my time might not be better spent away from this place.
I'm sorry to hear that you've been subject to disparaging remarks from others elsewhere and that they may be misrepresenting your views. However, I feel that your response to all of this is making many people here feel rather uncomfortable – it is certainly causing me unease. I fear all of this is having a further destructive knock-on effect in that it's stifling the wider debate on the more interesting matters that we all came here to discuss in the first place.
With the greatest respect, I'd suggest that if you want to defend your position against attacks from others or even just have a dig at them, you should address those people directly, rather than in the roundabout, and arguably underhand, fashion of seeking to use AoS members to support your position without their knowledge of the situation.
Better still, rise above it all & get on with the business of making The Art of Sound into the forum we all know it's capable of being.
jandl100
12-01-2010, 10:31
I am confused about what (outside changing certain parts or adding others) could allow me to hear the full potential of my actual system.
Well, I'm kind of in-tune with this. It's about making the best of what components you have.
Make sure you have a nice clean mains supplying the juice.
Make sure your components are cabled up synergistically.
Make sure your components are suitably isolated physically from the environment and each other.
That sort of thing.
But you cannot, of course, ever know that you 'get the best' out of your components - the next tweak may make it even better, after all! ;)
Stratmangler
12-01-2010, 10:33
OK, so your 'methodology' is that accessories are in fact 'necessaries' and a good hi-fi can be made significantly better by addressing matters other than the main components alone. This approach should be universally effective no matter what the gear.
I think most of us are aware of the benefits that this approach can give – even if we don't all apply it to the nth degree.
However, given that your choice of equipment is so very different from what it apparently once was, and that I'd guess you probably used the same fastidious approach to set-up in previous system incarnations, I can understand how some people might think it's the items of equipment that are the key. This is especially likely as it's usually the hardware that most people focus upon.
The above is not the reason for this post. The following is, though:
Alex & others have expressed a little despair at all of this and now, I'm afraid, it's my turn. I didn't want to enter into making such a comment because this type of discussion can perpetuate the very problem that it addresses. However, recently for the first time I've been considering whether my time might not be better spent away from this place.
I'm sorry to hear that you've been subject to disparaging remarks from others elsewhere and that they may be misrepresenting your views. However, I feel that your response to all of this is making many people here feel rather uncomfortable – it is certainly causing me unease. I fear all of this is having a further destructive knock-on effect in that it's stifling the wider debate on the more interesting matters that we all came here to discuss in the first place.
With the greatest respect, I'd suggest that if you want to defend your position against attacks from others or even just have a dig at them, you should address those people directly, rather than in the roundabout, and arguably underhand, fashion of seeking to use AoS members to support your position without their knowledge of the situation.
Better still, rise above it all & get on with the business of making The Art of Sound into the forum we all know it's capable of being.
+1
The Vinyl Adventure
12-01-2010, 10:38
Well, I'm kind of in-tune with this. It's about making the best of what components you have.
Make sure you have a nice clean mains supplying the juice.
Make sure your components are cabled up synergistically.
Make sure your components are suitably isolated physically from the environment and each other.
That sort of thing.
This is what I said (kinda) on page one ... As I said then it seems sencible to me
it's can't be that hard to get to grips with Marcos ideas there's about 12000 posts of them banding about this place :)
Hi Jerry,
But you cannot, of course, ever know that you 'get the best' out of your components - the next tweak may make it even better, after all!
Yep, there are always improvements to be made - it just depends how far you want to go before leaving things as they are and the enjoying music (presuming of course one generally has a settled system and keeps it for more than six months... :eyebrows: ;))
The system building methodology above I've outlined was just a guide to what in my experience (bearing in mind that everything I listed is present in my system) is necessary to allow equipment (and a system) to perform as optimally as possible.
It was posted to help focus some people's minds away from obsessing about upgrading equipment and speakers (often when it's unnecessary) and instead getting the most out of what they've got first before seeking to upgrade. This doesn't apply to your good self of course!
With a 'platform', such as I've outlined, in place permanently (once it's done, it's done - you don't need to fiddle with it) it means that you'll more likely get the best out of any equipment. Therefore if you can hear properly what the equipment is doing in the first place, there's less chance of you making costly mistakes rejecting it and buying something else for perhaps the wrong reason.
That's my philosophy anyway, and it's worked very well for me so far! :cool:
Marco.
Well, I'm kind of in-tune with this. It's about making the best of what components you have.
Make sure you have a nice clean mains supplying the juice.
Make sure your components are cabled up synergistically.
Make sure your components are suitably isolated physically from the environment and each other.
That sort of thing.
But you cannot, of course, ever know that you 'get the best' out of your components - the next tweak may make it even better, after all! ;)
Ah, ok. So, in fact this doesn't concern me. :lol:
Because I know I take out the best. Every time ! :cool:
(until next time...)
anthonyTD
12-01-2010, 10:55
hi all,
after reading a lot of the negativety here the last few days i feel i have to explain my take on things, first of all IMHO it is very important to start with good basics if your going to have half a chance of realising what your system is capable of dynamicaly and musicaly, those basics have already been described by others here so i wont elaborate on that any further apart from stating the obvious which is THEIR RIGHT! but that dosent mean that there is nothing else that can be done to keep furthering the improvements because there is always improvements to be had, whether it be a better mains supply, better stands ie; taking the current methology thats works even further, its of no use to keep swapping source, power amps speakers etc until your pretty certain that you have given each of them a fair go in obtaining the best you can from them by implimenting the methology describe.
now lets get this forum back on track doing what its best at and that is, helping each and everyone here to further their musical experience!:)
A...
Hi Chris,
OK, so your 'methodology' is that accessories are in fact 'necessaries' and a good hi-fi can be made significantly better by addressing matters other than the main components alone. This approach should be universally effective no matter what the gear.
This stuff is covered in our ethos, mate - it is part of the core beliefs of AoS. Surely you must have realised it by now? If so, it's only natural for it to crop up in discussions. Ok, so we've 'hammered it home' a bit on this thread, but that was for a specific purpose. See my thoughts on this further on :)
However, given that your choice of equipment is so very different from what it apparently once was, and that I'd guess you probably used the same fastidious approach to set-up in previous system incarnations, I can understand how some people might think it's the items of equipment that are the key.
Steve can speak for himself, but I rarely change equipment and tend to keep stuff I like for many years. In my experience, the set-up I've outlined has played a big part in sating my desire to upgrade.
Alex & others have expressed a little despair at all of this and now, I'm afraid, it's my turn. I didn't want to enter into making such a comment because this type of discussion can perpetuate the very problem that it addresses. However, recently for the first time I've been considering whether my time might not be better spent away from this place.
I'm sorry to hear that you've been subject to disparaging remarks from others elsewhere and that they may be misrepresenting your views. However, I feel that your response to all of this is making many people here feel rather uncomfortable – it is certainly causing me unease. I fear all of this is having a further destructive knock-on effect in that it's stifling the wider debate on the more interesting matters that we all came here to discuss in the first place.
If that's how you feel, that's fair enough Chris. We felt that we needed to address something, which has now been done. I (and I'm sure Steve) are only too willing to close the thread if the majority feel that it's served its purpose.
So shall we close it now or what? :cool:
Marco.
jandl100
12-01-2010, 11:02
Hi Jerry,
Yep, there are always improvements to be made - it just depends how far you want to go before leaving things as they are and the enjoying music (presuming of course one generally has a settled system and keeps it for more than six months... :eyebrows: ;))
Werll ... it all depends what direction your particular obsession takes you in. :lol:
I like to try different components - you like to endlessly fiddle with getting that nth extra performance out of what you have.
We're both potty, tbh. :ner:
it just depends how far you want to go before leaving things as they are and the enjoying music
Why can't you play with the kit AND enjoy the music? I do. The two are not mutually exclusive, at least as far as I am concerned. Not at all. Two distinct but mutually supportive hobbies.
I think your error here comes from thinking that I change my gear because I am necessarily deeply unhappy with what I have got. I can assure you that that is very rarely the case, and that I always enjoy my music. :) You still haven't quite got your cranium around that perspective, have you? ;) .... well, maybe you have, really - but it doesn't read like it in your post. :eyebrows:
jandl100
12-01-2010, 11:06
Here you go http://hddaudio.net/punbb/viewtopic.php?id=604
Really is a load of whining bollocks IMHO
I click on this link, and what do I see? ...
Posts from AOS's old chums "Ash" and JCBum ... who the hell cares what these bozos think or say? :scratch:
Anthony nails it in one:
its of no use to keep swapping source, power amps speakers etc until your pretty certain that you have given each of them a fair go in obtaining the best you can from them by implimenting the methology described.
That's exactly the system-building methodology we're advocating: get to experience the kit properly (hearing as near to its full potential) FIRST before rejecting it and buying another box, perhaps attributing the reason why it was rejected to the fault of the equipment, when said fault could lie elsewhere due to set-up issues.
People, this shit happens - it's not a pipe dream!!
This system building methodology is directed at everyone apart from people like Jerry who box-swap on purpose for other perfectly legitimate reasons. It's only our well-intended advice, nothing more.
Bear in mind that (nailing the misconception of AoS detractors aside) this thread is all about helping people who may benefit from such advice and trying to save them money (and often a whole load of frustration and heartache) in the process :)
Marco.
I'm like Jerry on that.
I never owed a gear that I didn't appreciate, and I could live happily with every single bit I've owed. ;)
(except perhaps some Arcam AV stuff, but that's another story)
jandl100
12-01-2010, 11:21
I'm like Jerry on that.
I never owed a gear that I didn't appreciate, and I could live happily with every single bit I've owed. ;)
Well, I wouldn't go that far! :lol:
I could give a long list of kit I wasn't that impressed by, and I am firmly convinced that trying 'to get the best' out of most of them according to the AOS philosophy would have been flogging a dead horse! :eyebrows:
..... but I never (well, all right, very seldom ;)) let it get in the way of musical enjoyment, if only because I usually buy the next bit of kit before I have sold the previous one, so I can almost always fall back on a good component. :cool:
I swap *much* less often than you, Jerry. No doubt. ;)
The Grand Wazoo
12-01-2010, 11:32
Marco,
Marco: This stuff is covered in our ethos, mate - it is part of the core beliefs of AoS. Surely you must have realised it by now?
Of course I have, and it's an approach I completely understand and concur with – I'm surprised you have to ask.
I think you must've missed this bit.........
TGW: I think most of us are aware of the benefits that this approach can give – even if we don't all apply it to the nth degree.
Marco:So shall we close it now or what?
I'd leave it open personally – I don't really think any thread should be closed except in exceptional circumstances – and even then it should only be a temporary measure. Just my opinion.
Hi Jerry,
Werll ... it all depends what direction your particular obsession takes you in.
We're both potty, tbh.
LOL - we probably are, but perhaps for different reasons than you imply! :lol:
I like to try different components - you like to endlessly fiddle with getting that nth extra performance out of what you have.
It may seem that way sometimes, but that's honestly not how it is. "Endlessly fiddle" is way too strong - 'now and again tweak' would more accurately reflect the reality :)
What I tend to do is embark on a project (such as the 1210 or Tannoy one), research it thoroughly, and then max it out as much as I can initially, using it that way for a long time, if or until I discover something that's worth doing which I think will make a significant improvement.
Otherwise my equipment sits there, blissfully untouched, playing choons.
As my system is now getting to a point where there's nothing much I can do to improve it further (save buying even better and probably much more expensive kit - something I don't want to do), such tweaking occurs less and less, so my 'journey' is almost over.
I'm now at the stage where the limitations are mainly the size of my room, so only if I move to a bigger house, would the 'journey' recommence in anger - *if* indeed I felt that it was necessary at all.
Why can't you play with the kit AND enjoy the music? I do. The two are not mutually exclusive, at least as far as I am concerned. Not at all. Two distinct but mutually supportive hobbies.
I think your error here comes from thinking that I change my gear because I am necessarily deeply unhappy with what I have got. I can assure you that that is very rarely the case, and that I always enjoy my music. :) You still haven't quite got your cranium around that perspective, have you? .... well, maybe you have, really - but it doesn't read like it in your post.
Whoa there! Lower the defence shields, Capt'n, this one's a friendly vessel... :lol:
"Getting my cranium round that perspective" is precisely what I've done here:
This system building methodology is directed at everyone apart from people like Jerry who box-swap on purpose for other perfectly legitimate reasons.
Rest assured, mon ami, that I know and fully appreciate *exactly* what you do with hi-fi and why you do it, so don't direct that pish at me again! :lolsign:
Marco.
Beechwoods
12-01-2010, 11:37
I swap *much* less often than you, Jerry. No doubt. ;)
That's my problem. I love to acquire kit, but hate to move it on.
He says, looking at his 2 8-tracks, 5 reel to reels, 3 tape decks, 3 DAT machines, 3 CDPs ;)
chris@panteg
12-01-2010, 11:38
Anthony nails it in one:
That's exactly this system-building methodology we're advocating: get to experience the kit properly (hearing as near to its full potential) FIRST before rejecting it and buying another box, attributing the reason why it was rejected to the fault of the equipment, when the fault could lie elsewhere due to set-up anomalies.
This system building methodology is directed at everyone apart from people like Jerry who box-swap on purpose for other perfectly legitimate reasons. It's only our well-intended advice, nothing more.
Bear in mind that (nailing the misconception of AoS detractors aside) this thread is all about helping people who may benefit from such advice and trying to save them money (and often a whole load of frustration and heartache) in the process :)
Marco.
I agree with that Marco '
Also the way i have upgraded my 1210 is along the same lines ' i wanted to give the stock techie arm the best chance ' apart from the fluid damper and Cardas wire ' but i don't think i need to try those now ;).
jandl100
12-01-2010, 11:49
Rest assured, mon ami, that I know and fully appreciate *exactly* what you do with hi-fi and why you do it, so don't direct that pish at me again! :lolsign:
Marco.
Well, no real pish there, Marco, if you look at what you posted ....
Yep, there are always improvements to be made - it just depends how far you want to go before leaving things as they are and the enjoying music (presuming of course one generally has a settled system and keeps it for more than six months... :eyebrows: ;))
Seemed to me that you were having a bash at my box-swapping as getting in the way of the music. Yup, at that point my defensive shields went to max and I prepared a return salvo. :lol:
Peace & Goodwill at this festive (and slushy) time of year. :cool:
I click on this link, and what do I see? ...
Posts from AOS's old chums "Ash" and JCBum ... who the hell cares what these bozos think or say? :scratch:
"Bozos" - exactly.
But one has to keep the misguided and blinkered in line!!
Marco.
Seemed to me that you were having a bash at my box-swapping as getting in the way of the music. Yup, at that point my defensive shields went to max and I prepared a return salvo.
Hahaha... Indeed! Thing is, I wiznae daein that though (if I may temporarily borrow some quaint Scottish vernacular in order to emphasise the point)! :ner:
Yer uncle Marco knows you too well by now to make that mistake! ;)
Marco.
"Bozos" - exactly.
But one has to keep the misguided and blinkered in line!!
Marco.
From the AoS Ethos 'things we don't like':
Defamatory comments about any other member of this forum or any other hi-fi forum
Joe,
Fair enough, we're all human - not robots. Sometimes you have to bend the rules a little to defend your principles in the face of provocation. It won't happen again. This certainly doesn’t occur here anything like as often as it does elsewhere. That is a fact, so we don't have much to feel sorry for.
However, I have to say, I'm getting more than a little tired of your constant nit-picking. I'm afraid that I see little evidence of you contributing positively to this community.
When was the last time you started a thread of your own relating to hi-fi or music which involved a serious and constructive purpose? All I see, I'm afraid, is nit-picking, especially at Steve.
Therefore please raise your game and convince us differently or go somewhere else to indulge your pedantic hobby. Thank you!
Marco.
He says, looking at his 2 8-tracks, 5 reel to reels, 3 tape decks, 3 DAT machines, 3 CDPs ;):lol:
Well, I still have 4 amps, 2CDPs and a tuner I don't use... :rolleyes:
I don't store speakers, though : I give them to friends.
I'll have to get rid of one of the amps, btw. ;)
Steve Toy
12-01-2010, 17:26
As my system is now getting to a point where there's nothing much I can do to improve it further (save buying even better and probably much more expensive kit - something I don't want to do), such tweaking occurs less and less, so my 'journey' is almost over.
Mulling over this statement and knowing your system, you're definitely nearly there.
I'll go through a few changes I'd make if I were in your position:
1) I'd replace the Mana with the new Music Works Revo racks but I understand you don't like its appearance. Neither do I but I do like the way it really unlocks a system's potential.
2) The preamp. The Croft would be replaced by a Tube Distinctions Grounded Grid.
3) I'd add a computer source and a hi-res DAC made by Duncan.
That's about your lot really.
In my own system I want to do the following:
1) Install separate mains spur and consumer unit.
2) Install a Tube Distinctions mains filter
3) Add a computer source
5) New speakers - must be valve friendly, tuneful, involving, do bass and do texture. I think PMC FB1i's or something from Cabasse may fit the bill.
6) Get the new Music Works Revo racks.
7) Get a fully fettled Technics SL1210 and lots of records
"7) Get a fully fettled Technics SL1210 and lots of records "
Steve,
I just wondered, have you never had a record player before or did you have one in the past and moved over to CD.
sastusbulbas
12-01-2010, 22:30
I have owned and listened to many systems, been into music since childhood, been into audio equipment since my transition from primary to high school.
Some visitors have found my chosen system sterile bland, others amazing and detailed and all manners in between from others, quite simply it was put together over time to do one thing, play music, all music, competently and with cohesion. Some of the kit is not what I thought I would have chosen or liked, but quite simply it did what I was after, in fact much kit I have had has been downgraded due to finding more cohesion and synergy with rooms and such with different kit, and with many years of listening to kit there is only a handfull of boring kit I like, and it all costs too much or is too big LOL
Unlike many, my priority music system has not changed for many years, I have not used it for a few myself due to kids and work and such, but here it is.
Theta Data III CD transport.
Genesis Digital Lense.
Theta Pro Basic IIIa Dac. (all connected via Chord AES)
Michell Gyro SE, QC PSU, SME IV, Rohmann, with an XLO Ref tonearm cable.
Ear 834P Signature and Sonic Frontiers SF-1 valve Phono stages.
Krell KRC3
Krell KAV-250a
Kef Reference 107 inc Kube (used since early 90's with regular servicing)
My cable choices are Chord in this system, Anthem XLR, Chord RCA and AES, and Chord Signature speaker cables, my mains cables are usually a mixture of RA with RA blocks without filtering or such. I am not a big believer of cables though.
My supports are Mana, not multiple layers, I sold a Reference table when the kids came along and moved my turntable to a higher height, but still have a reference table, custom rack, two tier amp stand, and some sound stages inc a single under each 107. The Mana under the Kef 107 would have been replaced with Townsend speaker platforms some years back if the company could have addressed my queries better.
Out of many years of owning and hearing various kit, the only system I really remember as being all what I have but more was a PMC/Bryston active BB5 set up, but considering the size and roughly £40K price it will remain a pipe dream LOL
Most newer "high end" kit seems to exagerate or highlight one aspect over another, with wildly varying frequency and bass performance, superb mid with poor treble and so forth, I guess I would rather have a coherent and balanced quality throughout the bass mid and treble than one noticeably better than the other. And maybe why reasonably well engineered speakers with reasonably flat +-2db plotted responses are preferable. I do like the likes of Esoteric and DCS for digital, but find valve power amps to biased toward designer taste, though I do like Audio Research and EAR valve pre's. And valve phono's for turntables.
These days if I had the space and money, I would probably try out a Tact 2.2xp pre with Bryston power amps driving B&W 801D in a semi active mode. Digital source (transport) would probably be a custom PC set up. A Brinkman LaGrange turntable or SME 10 would be nice I guess, but currently kids (third on the way!) are making records a little difficult with regards to space and my nerves.
To be honest I am contemplating selling of some kit, due to space and family limitations, and running the likes of a Tact pre with two power amps and running the Kef 107 bass as active with the onboard crossover. I would like to get some sort of cabinet between teh speakers which can have a 50" plasma on top with my system within. I had also planned to buy a couple of custom ribbon tweeters too a couple of years back, but got back into bikes.
I guess I like sterile bland but accurate and tonaly even system with that BBC type speaker, neutral with a very even response and such?
My bedroom system is of a similar quality, with mint Rogers Studio 1 speakers running off Classe amplification and Teac kit.
The important thing is, all my music which is very varied and eclectic, can still be listened to and enjoyed by me on both systems.
1) I'd replace the Mana with the new Music Works Revo racks but I understand you don't like its appearance. Neither do I but I do like the way it really unlocks a system's potential.
2) The preamp. The Croft would be replaced by a Tube Distinctions Grounded Grid.
Oi, Petunia, how many times have I said that I wouldn't give the Revo house room, purely because I'd never pay that amount of money for what amounts to a mountain of plastic! I'm also not sure it's better than Mana - in areas of musical presentation most important to me (remember it's my system, shweety, not yours).
And much as you like your grounded grid, (and it is good), I wouldn't swap it for the Croft, especially after its recent mods - the full effect of which you haven't heard yet. I love what the Croft produces now, some of it better than the grounded grid, IMO.
I'll certainly be listening to Anthony's two-boxer soon, so we'll see how that performs, but I'm really in no hurry whatsoever to change my preamp or my stands :)
Marco.
Steve Toy
12-01-2010, 22:44
"7) Get a fully fettled Technics SL1210 and lots of records "
Steve,
I just wondered, have you never had a record player before or did you have one in the past and moved over to CD.
In 1999 I bought a Rega Planar 2 that I upgraded to a Planar 25 a year later. I sold it in 2003 to pay part of a tax bill.
I haven't owned a TT since and even then, CD, a Naim CD5 followed by a CDX was my main source.
http://theartofsound.net/forum/images/misc/progress.gif
Steve Toy
13-01-2010, 01:08
Oi, Petunia, how many times have I said that I wouldn't give the Revo house room, purely because I'd never pay that amount of money for what amounts to a mountain of plastic! I'm also not sure it's better than Mana - in areas of musical presentation most important to me (remember it's my system, shweety, not yours).
OK OK, the fact remains that you've not heard the Revo. It doesn't (just) tick boxes (scuse pun), it unlocks nuances on the disc you never knew existed. Once heard (and you haven't), never forgotten. When I heard what it did I couldn't listen to my system at home for days...
Well, I did to begin with and it taught me what the misnomer of 'noise floor' actually means.
Noise floor is a silent threshold below which certain detail is just inaudible and I heard that when I got home with the same Mary Chapin Carpenter Stones in the Road disc. After that it was a good few days before I could listen to music again.
For sure I've upgraded my system since in a few key areas - DAC, interconnects, power leads and power amp and they've got me closer but there's still something missing that the Revo delivers. It even gave me many of the attributes that Larry previously stated were unimportant or not as he would consider musically relevant like metronomic timing of a good drummer and hi-hat delivering multiples of the basic rhythm plus sub-rhythms that he does consider important - pattens behind patterns that Naim systems strive for yet actually miss even with their top-flight system.
OK OK, the fact remains that you've not heard the Revo. It doesn't (just) tick boxes (scuse pun), it unlocks nuances on the disc you never knew existed. Once heard (and you haven't), never forgotten. When I heard what it did I couldn't listen to my system at home for days...
Well, I did to begin with and it taught me what the misnomer of 'noise floor' actually means.
LOL - read my lips: I don't care because it looks like a bag of spanners (says he with multiple layers of Mana, haha!), and represents woeful material value for money, unless one has a fetish for plastic monstrosities :ner:
If I were replacing my Mana supports, aside from excellent performance (through effective design principles), I'd probably want something sexy made from wood, metal and/or glass, although I'm rather intrigued by the Stillpoint stuff and the design methodology behind it :)
Remember this thread: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3477
I liked some of the ideas on there!
Marco.
jandl100
13-01-2010, 11:37
Oops - looks like I'm gonna stir the waters again .... :eyebrows: .... I'll be getting me marching orders soon. :)
But .... it seems to me that the last few posts have been rather close to "you've gotta get what I've got, its the best". Tbh, chaps, I can see where outsiders might come up with the snide remarks that Marco has been a bit upset about recently.
There's a zillion component choices out there - a not far off infinite number of configurations of fine sounding kit. To think that there is a single road to a musically satisfying system, or any 'must have' component, is quite wrong, imho.
The current thread about a visit to Castle Marco is a case in point. Whilst Marco's system was admired in many ways, it didn't fully satisfy his visitor who would make different and equally valid system choices of his own.
Steve Toy
13-01-2010, 11:47
Well Jerry, there you go!
The Vinyl Adventure
13-01-2010, 12:37
5) New speakers - must be valve friendly, tuneful, involving, do bass and do texture. I think PMC FB1i's or something from Cabasse may fit the bill.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/PMC-FB1-Loudspeakers-Oak-finish_W0QQitemZ290390384326QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_ AudioVideoElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_HiFiSpeakers?h ash=item439c9d9ec6
Hi Jerry,
First of all, you're more than welcome to 'stir the waters', as you say, as much as you like, providing you do it in a non-confrontational way, which to be fair you always do, so there's never a problem with what you write here :)
But .... it seems to me that the last few posts have been rather close to "you've gotta get what I've got, it's the best".
Fair enough if that's the way you see it, but how so, exactly? I really don't get this.
You see, when I read back from our last (largely amusing) exchange yesterday, all I can see is Joe being a twat, Dimitri replying to Beechy about hoarding equipment, Mark asking Steve if he's ever owned a turntable, Steve replying, Sastus outlining his views, and Steve and I exchanging a couple of posts where we're discussing what Steve thinks I should do with my system..... Those couple of posts concerned him and me, no-one else.
Try as I might, I see no evidence whatsoever of either of us saying directly or implying that 'you've gotta get what we've got, it's the best'....... IT IS A COMPLETE AND UTTER MYSTERY TO ME HOW ANYONE COULD INTERPRET THIS FROM WHAT WAS WRITTEN :scratch:
No offence, Jerry, but since you appear to be reading into things that (to me) don't exist in a similar way to how we're accusing others of doing, perhaps you could explain the apparent dichotomy, and provide some evidence in the form of direct quotes, which support the theory that in the ensuing dialogue since our last exchange both Steve and I have within that implied that 'you've gotta get what we've got, its the best?'
Rest assured that I'm not being facetious in any way whatsoever; I genuinely have no idea where this stuff is coming from, so I'd like to get to the bottom of the problem once and for all!!
The current thread about a visit to Castle Marco is a case in point. Whilst Marco's system was admired in many ways, it didn't fully satisfy his visitor who would make different and equally valid system choices of his own.
I couldn't agree more. Barry's visit was a joy - we had great fun, listened to lots of different music, and he left recognising and respecting my system for what it excelled at, appreciating my particular priorities, while acknowledging that his were a little different - which is just how it should be! :cool:
Marco.
Steve Toy
13-01-2010, 13:25
I think the mere mention of your kit is all it takes, perhaps just mentioning your name is enough.... :rolleyes:
I'm beginning to think that, Steve :rolleyes: + 1
Marco.
We still love yer Marco, I suspect people do not understand your monstrous enthusiasm for your sound as being an keyboard bully and pressuring your views on the masses. Rather than overly passionate guy who loves his kit :).
I have known how you are for nearly 8 years now so have recalculated my heuristic algorithmic responses accordingly. It is just a collection of boxes and wires that can enable you to be immersed in the tunes and vibes you love, which ever box or name you own, it is your choice. Just enjoy the music and not let petty annalists ego inflating/collapsing scribbling worry us.
I mean this is somewhat minuscule in relation to the events in Haiti currently.
Indeed! And thanks for your kind words, Tony :)
Marco.
Enthusiasm is what keeps us young.
Well, I may be mistaken, in fact. But I like pretty phrases. :o
jandl100
14-01-2010, 09:34
Hi Marco
Well, this response has turned into a bit of a mish-mash and covers rather more ground than I had first anticipated - perhaps I've tried to cover too much in one go :scratch: ... anyway, here it is!
Hi Jerry,No offence, Jerry, but since you appear to be reading into things that (to me) don't exist in a similar way to how we're accusing others of doing, perhaps you could explain the apparent dichotomy, and provide some evidence in the form of direct quotes, which support the theory that in the ensuing dialogue since our last exchange both Steve and I have within that implied that 'you've gotta get what we've got, its the best?'
Marco.
OK.
But I'll start by quoting Mr C, I hope in a manner that he won't consider to be out of context ....
We still love yer Marco, I suspect people do not understand your monstrous enthusiasm for your sound (and interpret it) as being a keyboard bully and pressuring your views on the masses. Rather than overly passionate guy who loves his kit :).
I have known how you are for nearly 8 years now so have recalculated my heuristic algorithmic responses accordingly.
Well, I've been around you and Steve for a lot less than Tony's 8 years, and maybe I still need to do some recalculating of my algorithmic responses. :)
You guys are a hard mouthful to swallow sometimes, in that your enthusiasms seem quite narrowly focussed, largely on what you happen to currently own or aspire to - first Spendors, now Tannoy. Denon 103 variants and Technics 1210 tt's. MG cables .... etc etc.
There are choices beyond those! I know that you know this - but sometimes it doesn't seem (to me) to come across in what you say. It comes down to personal communication and writing style - both you and Steve are very distinctive in your very different ways, and distinctiveness can rub some folks up the wrong way leading to misunderstandings and an inability to see each others' points of view.
Also .....
.... and Steve and I exchanging a couple of posts where we're discussing what Steve thinks I should do with my system..... Those couple of posts concerned him and me, no-one else.
Nope - they were on the open forum and therefore are subject to scrutiny and comment (and opinion-forming) of others, not only by members of this forum either. If you want a private chat, use the PM system. ;)
Therein lies the text that sparked off my posting, although there was a substantial background to this that I'll get to later ....
1) I'd replace the Mana with the new Music Works Revo racks
2) The preamp. The Croft would be replaced by a Tube Distinctions Grounded Grid.
Guess what the poster either owns or is lusting after.
Even the title of this thread implies that you consider yourselves the high priests of the One True Way - "Is the Marco system the best thing since...?". The implied answer from the OP clearly being 'yes'.
In my honest opinion, the whole basis of this thread supports the view of some that either things are a bit narrow-minded around here and/or that you have a particular agenda to get across. The latter is certainly correct, I think, although I have already touched on some aspects of the former. The 'agenda' possibilities splits into two main possibleconsiderations as I see it, one of which is harmless, the other isn't :
1) you have a methodology that you want to get across, a principal reason for setting up this forum to start with, and you had hoped that was clear and obvious to all. Nope, I think the following quote would not be untypical ....
Which methodology are you referring to, Steve ? :scratch:
Probably I missed a thread or two, so it is not clear to me.
You've been missing your target, and now that you've laid it out again explicitly in this thread the response has been, 'yes, well, that's bloody obvious, isn't it.' Which must be a bit disappointing as you would take the approach far further than most, and that is the main point of it.
2) the other possibility for an agenda is a commercial one. I've seen this mentioned about AOS elsewhere, although I do not agree with it. It is very noticeable to some that an AOS moderator is also a maker of hifi electronics that get a lot of positive mention on the forum. A certain cable maker also comes to mind. Perhaps other folks are able to spot more of what some might regard as 'conflicts of interest'.
Personally, I do not doubt your genuine enthusiasm for the brands. Some misguided folks have held similar views about my relationship with Beresford DACs of which I have been a long-term fan and at times a very vocal supporter, so I can understand the irritation that this might cause you.
Nonetheless, I can see where a 'sceptical attitude' to the AOS forum in this regard might come from.
Hi Jerry,
Thanks for taking the time and trouble to express yourself very eloquently in such a long post. You've obviously thought long and hard about this.
I see where you're coming from, but I guess that anything anyone writes on forums is open to misinterpretation, with people's imagination, different mindset, alternative ways of doing things and equipment biases skewing the reality - or at least their ability to always read things from others as they were intended. As human beings, I'm afraid we're all fallible creatures!
I could write for pages about what I think is 'wrong' with Wigwam, ZG and some other forums and those who run them; whether I'm actually right or not about what I think or simply allowing the natural human traits above to skew my views, is of course another question - and the same applies to others with AoS.
All I can say is that how you've outlined things is definitely NOT how we intend it to come across, and short of either completely changing our views on hi-fi or how we are as people, there's no real way of addressing the 'problem'.
As I'm sure you'll appreciate that's not going to happen, so I'm afraid that people will just have to take us as they find us and make up their own minds what they think of AoS and/or Steve or me and go from there. We don't need to justify ourselves or our beliefs to anyone.
I think that it's best now to leave it at that Jerry and move on :)
Marco.
P.S Has your 'thingy' arrived yet?
jandl100
14-01-2010, 11:25
I think that it's best now to leave it at that Jerry and move on :)
Marco.
Yup, that's fine. I would just like to reiterate that some of the 'nastier' views presented in my post are not held by me (re: commercial agendas), but some that I have seen elsewhere.
P.S Has your 'thingy' arrived yet?
Nope - postie called on Tuesday for the first time in a week - no 'thingy'. :( Snowed in again now, so it won't be a 'til the weekend, I would guess. Could well arrive at the same time as the cart the thingy is intended to be used with! :)
Yup, that's fine. I would just like to reiterate that some of the 'nastier' views presented in my post are not held by me (re: commercial agendas), but some that I have seen elsewhere.
Don't worry, dude, I know that :)
And incidentally, any 'championing' by Steve or me of the items you mention is done for the very same reasons you have for 'championing' the Beresford - nothing else. It's natural to be passionate about equipment you believe is genuinely superb and offers high SPPV, whether you own it or not (that last bit is crucial in understanding where Steve or I are coming from). The only reason we're more vociferous about it than others are is because we have our own forum to use as a vehicle for expressing our views!
In order to understand exactly where Steve and I are coming from, not only on this thread but on our views expressed throughout the forum, it is vital that the following is fully grasped and appreciated:
Modified Technics T/Ts, TD valve amps, modified vintage Tannoys, Mark Grant cables, etc, are NOT genuinely superb products offering high SPPV purely because either Steve or I choose to own them - they're that because (in our opinion) this is intrinsically what they represent through the excellence of their design, whether they were owned by us, Jimmy Krankie or the Count of Montecristo!! ;)
When we 'champion' these products, it's not to 'willy-wave'; it's to say: 'Guy's please have a listen to these products, as we think they're absolutely fantastic', in the hope that others will also realise how good they are and enjoy them like we do - i.e. the indended focus is on the products themselves we're recommending and NOT on the fact that we use them, just like you would do with the Beresford or anything else that through your box-swapping you've discovered is particularly excellent - and with no commercial agenda behind it whatsoever!
This is where Tony got it slightly wrong earlier... It's not my (or Steve's) 'monstrous enthusiasm for our sound', but rather our 'monstrous enthusiasm' for recommending to others what we believe are genuinely excellent products in the hope that others will try them and obtain the same musical satisfaction we do from using them. The fact that we own these products is incidental, as it's about the excellence of the products, not us. I really cannot make myself any clearer than that.
I do live and hope that ONE DAY these facts will penetrate into some very stubborn, cynical and (seemingly) blinkered minds......
Nope - postie called on Tuesday for the first time in a week - no 'thingy'. :( Snowed in again now, so it won't be a 'til the weekend, I would guess. Could well arrive at the same time as the cart the thingy is intended to be used with! :)
That would be good, but I hope that it hasn't got lost in all the delays with the snow. Anyway, keep me posted when it arrives, dude :cool:
Marco.
Peter Galbavy
14-01-2010, 12:13
I'm certainly not as eloquent as many others so I am not going to try to get my point across clearly. Sorry. What I will do is agree with Jerry in general; while there is no explicit "you must do it this way" in most of the advice and enthusiasm in these forums there does very much feel like there is an occassional undercurrent of snobbery and "do it this way or you will never reach *our* level of audio nirvana".
There is a very fuzzy dividing line between promoting a methodology, technology, trick or product because it does the right thing for you - and I love reading those posts - and the type of posts that push it just a little past the comfort zone to sounding very much like "right and wrong" or "us and them". "You should try this, it worked for me" vs "We do it this way". This crops up quite often WRT to valve amps, mains conditioning, arms etc.
Hi Peter,
Point taken and I agree. I'm afraid what you're referring to is largely inevitable through our behaviour as human beings and passion for our beliefs, as I referred to earlier.
If you read my last post above, hopefully things will become clearer. If not, then I'm afraid we're all in danger of going round and round in circles, and as such the thread is probably best closed :)
Marco.
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