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magiccarpetride
30-03-2017, 17:23
Audio is an expensive, time wasti... er, time consuming hobby. And to add insult to an injury, it is also quite confusing, as it seems rife with controversy.

You start building your audio system, you read the reviews, you frequent audio forums, you even befriend local audio salesguys. You're buying components, you're setting them up, pairing them, you're learning, and you put a lot of stock into what many self-proclaimed, self-appointed 'gurus' claim.

Then comes the moment when you realize that those haughty 'gurus' often severely contradict each other. Now what? The best thing at that junction is to roll up one's sleeves and see for oneself. Trust your ears, not your eyes. We're talking sound, music, after all. Aural phenomena and all that jazz.

I've recently made a decision to delay considering any upgrades to my audio components until I first squeeze the maximum out of my existing configuration. What I mean by that is:

1. Set my turntable on a platform (low mass/high rigidity) that will minimize (hopefully eliminate) any unwanted vibrations and will ensure that my TT is perfectly levelled
2. Review and possibly improve my speaker positioning/listening room treatment
3. Figure out the best possible way to clean my records/styli and to make sure they stay clean

The above goals should be achievable without making a large dent in my budget, which makes it an even more reasonable decision.

OK, off to work I go. The first two goals are relatively straightforward, with little or no controversy and a rather clear consensus in the audiophile community at large. But the third goal got me stumped. After reading numerous reviews/opinions/suggestions on the best way to clean LPs, I find myself in utter confusion. I would like to mention some of the controversies that are flooding this field of record cleaning, in the hopes that someone could help me leave the brambles and find my way toward proper record cleaning.

Controversy #1: Alcohol

Opinons on using alcohol when cleaning records range from one extreme (NEVER use alcohol in any, even tiniest proportion, because it renders vinyl grooves brittle), to another extreme (alcohol is totally harmless, but also totally useless, as it contributes absolutely nothing to the record cleaning process).

And then there are countless opinions that fall in-between these two extremes. Too many to mention here. Some 'gurus' are adamant that alcohol is only useful in helping the drying process, as it speeds up evaporation. So if using vacuum record cleaning process, alcohol is absolutely not necessary. Others claim that without alcohol, it would be impossible to even start the cleaning process, as it is the only substance that can actually loosen the grit and allow us to clean the grooves.

Controversy #2: Water

Some insist that only the purest, medical lab grade distilled water should ever come into contact with LPs. Others are much more lenient, and claim that unpure water, when used with detergents, is harmless.

Some claim that LPs should only be cleaned with distilled water, no other substances added, not even in traces. Others claim that water alone is useless in the cleaning process, as it cannot break up the dirt accumulated in the grooves.

Controversy #3: Surfactants

Here is where the real madness begins. Countless products are being thrown around. Some of them touted as the holy grail of record cleaning, only to be debunked by another group of 'experts' who are issuing warning about the damaging effects these products have on LPs.

Furthermore, the role of surfactants seems controversial: while some claim that these substances only serve to reduce the surface tension of the water, allowing it to penetrate microscopic nooks and crannies in the grooves, others are adamant that without surfactants we cannot expect the grooves to get cleaned. So according to them, surfactants are not needed for reducing the surface tension, they are needed for the actual cleaning of the grit in the grooves.

Controversy #4: Mechanical cleaning

Some claim that we must only use the softest possible brushes and then apply the pressure very gently, not to damage delicate grooves. Other insist that a lot of elbow grease is mandatory -- rub the LP vigorously with sturdy brush to form a lot of suds and scrub the grooves.

Controversy #5: To soak the LP or not to soak it

Some claim that the grooves must be soaked in the record cleaning fluid applied liberally, and then left for a few minutes for the emulsion to do its magic. Others warn against such approach, and insist that record cleaning fluid must be in touch with the grooves for the shortest possible time. As soon as we apply the fluid, we should scrub it and then quickly vacuum it bone dry.

Controversy #6: Single or multiple vacuuming of the LP

Some advocate to clean an LP in several steps, with the vacuuming step executed after each of those steps. Some even insist that it is necessary to first vacuum the dry LP before applying the cleaning fluid.

Some insist that even after the record has been thoroughly cleaned and vacuumed, we still need to wash it again with distilled water, to rinse any residue, and then do one final vacuuming. Others claim that a single vacuuming at the end of the cleaning session is enough.

Controversy #7: Air drying

Some claim that even after doing a thorough vacuuming of the LP, it needs to be left in a drying rack for additional air drying. Others claim that air drying is harmful to the record as it attracts particles of dust that stick to the grooves.

Controversy #8: Static electricity

Some claim that vacuuming is harmful as it generates static electricity which attracts particles of dust and dirt.

Controversy #9: Home-made RCF or purchased RCF

Some claim that it is dangerous to make one's own RCF, and that the decision should be left to professionals. But then there are so many commercially available RCFs that contradict each other -- some are alcohol based, some are detergent based, etc. Confusion...

I'll stop here. As you can see, it gets really hard to come up with a reasonable regime of cleaning one's records, if we were to follow various 'experts' on the topic.

Possible reasons for the confusion:

1. Shills -- manufacturers are know for fabricating claims and presenting them via 'independent' channels. Someone working for the manufacturer poses under false pretences as being merely a hobbyist and then makes exaggerated claims how that particular brand is the absolute best solution. This type of dishonesty is very problematic, as it gets hard to unmask the impostors.

2. Counter-propaganda -- manufacturers fighting the competition by hiring a scientist of some sorts (in this case a chemist) who will use complicated scientific vernacular to debunk the product marketed by the competition. A lot of times those 'scientific' claims are pure bullshit, but it can hurt us, consumers. by chasing us away from what could potentially be a good solution for our problems.

3. Butt-sniffers -- the internet is chock full of butt-sniffers. Those are people who obsess about personalities. As soon as they detect someone who is passionate about something, and whose passion attracts like minded individuals, butt-sniffers unleash an ad hominem diatribe against the passionate hobbyist. Butt-sniffers then do everything in their power to contradict the passionate hobbyist, and are good at recruiting other mean spirited members. People like to gang up on others, and will use each and every opportunity to do everything possible to make the victim feel powerless, miserable, and inadequate. This shameful pattern keeps repeating on every existing internet forum and chatroom. It is additionally fuelled by the veil of anonymity which allows those spineless miscreants to spread their wings and viciously attack others.

It is often very hard to discern whether the claim about some of the methods listed above are coming from a genuine experience, or are just fabricated by one of the three possible sources (shills, counter-propagandists, or butt-sniffers).

struth
30-03-2017, 17:34
You seem to have allowed yourself to become confused. :)there is a thread by marco on this forum which will tell you all you need to know. Ive been using a vaccuum cleaning machine for years and using alchol and med grade water etc. i have a large collection of valuable records and they are clean, sound great and are in as good condition as they were when bought... better actually. many are over 50 years old.

walpurgis
30-03-2017, 17:37
Blimey!

sq225917
30-03-2017, 17:51
Things I know.

Wet vac works better with a soak, with wetting agent, with surfactant, with a scrub, with pure water, with a second rinse, with an air dry and with natural fibres in your brush and vac head. Synthetic fibres equal static.

All these are true, the flavours of each are to personal taste. The only rule is, surfactant must not be a soap.

magiccarpetride
30-03-2017, 18:20
You seem to have allowed yourself to become confused. :)there is a thread by marco on this forum which will tell you all you need to know. Ive been using a vaccuum cleaning machine for years and using alchol and med grade water etc. i have a large collection of valuable records and they are clean, sound great and are in as good condition as they were when bought... better actually. many are over 50 years old.

I've been buying a lot, and I mean a lot of used LPs lately. All those need to be cleaned before I can enjoy them. I find that using commercial RCFs is damaging to my budget (I'd much rather spend money on more LPs, more LPs!) So I'm on a hunt for the best home made fluid. Hence my confusion -- L'Art du Son is too expensive, so now should I use alcohol, which surfactant, etc.?

I read through Marco's thread (not the entire thread, but some posts), and again, the opinions seem to vary and differ.

I have ordered Ilford Ilfotol surfactant -- I'm hoping that one will do the trick (once it arrives).

Barry
30-03-2017, 18:22
It’s not necessarily going to answer your questions but the following might be of interest:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinyl_Disc_Records_Preservation

http://www.vinylrecordfair.com/clean-vinyl-records/

http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/vinyl-lp/35-accessories/156-wash-and-go.html

julesd68
30-03-2017, 18:30
L'Art du Son is too expensive, so now should I use alcohol, which surfactant, etc.?

You have to remember that L'Art du Son makes up to 5 litres of cleaner - that's a lot of records!!

struth
30-03-2017, 18:31
I've been buying a lot, and I mean a lot of used LPs lately. All those need to be cleaned before I can enjoy them. I find that using commercial RCFs is damaging to my budget (I'd much rather spend money on more LPs, more LPs!) So I'm on a hunt for the best home made fluid. Hence my confusion -- L'Art du Son is too expensive, so now should I use alcohol, which surfactant, etc.?

I read through Marco's thread (not the entire thread, but some posts), and again, the opinions seem to vary and differ.

I have ordered Ilford Ilfotol surfactant -- I'm hoping that one will do the trick (once it arrives).

Ilfatol is what I use I use a little more than most at 10ml per litre And about 20/25% alcohol. A good bristle brush and a good vacuum machine it doesn't need to steep .brush in both directions. A anti static gun is good too

Cas
30-03-2017, 18:44
I've been buying a lot, and I mean a lot of used LPs lately. All those need to be cleaned before I can enjoy them. I find that using commercial RCFs is damaging to my budget (I'd much rather spend money on more LPs, more LPs!) So I'm on a hunt for the best home made fluid. Hence my confusion -- L'Art du Son is too expensive, so now should I use alcohol, which surfactant, etc.?

I read through Marco's thread (not the entire thread, but some posts), and again, the opinions seem to vary and differ.

I have ordered Ilford Ilfotol surfactant -- I'm hoping that one will do the trick (once it arrives).

£32 odd for 5 litres I think is not too bad at all compared with others around.

magiccarpetride
30-03-2017, 19:10
Ilfatol is what I use I use a little more than most at 10ml per litre And about 20/25% alcohol. A good bristle brush and a good vacuum machine it doesn't need to steep .brush in both directions. A anti static gun is good too

Another controversy is using warmed up RCF vs using it at a room temperature?

Also, using carbon fibre brush vs natural?

struth
30-03-2017, 19:37
Never warmed it up Ive tried carbon but didn't like it with fluid. Personally I use a tonar wet goat

walpurgis
30-03-2017, 19:58
Personally I use a tonar wet goat

That sounds like an obscure pipe tobacco. :)

Cas
30-03-2017, 21:40
That sounds like an obscure pipe tobacco. :)

Or a drink, flagon of Ye Olde Toner Wet Goat please lanlord. hic!

struth
30-03-2017, 21:43
http://www.analogueseduction.net/brushes/tonar-goat-bristle-wet-record-cleaning-brush.html

yea olde goat ;)

magiccarpetride
30-03-2017, 22:09
http://www.analogueseduction.net/brushes/tonar-goat-bristle-wet-record-cleaning-brush.html

yea olde goat ;)

That's the weirdest sex toy I've ever seen, but hey, whatever gets you through the night.

struth
30-03-2017, 22:14
dont ask if your not intereted

magiccarpetride
30-03-2017, 22:27
You seem to have allowed yourself to become confused. :)there is a thread by marco on this forum which will tell you all you need to know. Ive been using a vaccuum cleaning machine for years and using alchol and med grade water etc. i have a large collection of valuable records and they are clean, sound great and are in as good condition as they were when bought... better actually. many are over 50 years old.

Here is one of the best, if not most unorthodox advices on record cleaning I bumped into while doing my research:

"Here's what I do to clean my vinyl. One only has to do it once in their entire lifetime to protect the vinyl from a multitude of plays thereafter...... 1. Go outside on a full moon (must be raining and windy)... 2. Suspend vinyl from a silver stick at a 45° angle (silver stick must be blessed by either the god Apollo or myself. I charge the low fee of $19.99... try getting Apollo to show up after he dings your credit card! But hey, it's your choice.) .... 3. Walk male Siberian Husky exactly 16" from said vinyl. ...4. place Canine‘s LEFT hind quarter parallel to the vinyl... 5. Induce urination in said canine by dipping paw in bowl of warm water.... 6. Let rain & wind provide the final vinyl rinse. ... 7. Magic moonshine rays will then enter the pristine grooves and protect vinyl for an eternity thereafter."

walpurgis
30-03-2017, 22:33
Weird shit!

cre009
31-03-2017, 06:09
I have always been a fan of these types of cleaner ever since I used a product from Lasky's called disc skin in the 70's.

http://www.nagaoka.eu/index.php?item=nagaoka-recopack-dc-203-record-cleaner--&action=article&group_id=10000002&aid=67&lang=en

This version actually came with instructions recommending its use as an archival tool to protect records until you get round to using them.

I actually have one of these I purchased about 15 years ago but don't need to use it much because there is the cheap skate alternative of "PVA glue" that is now very popular.

alphaGT
31-03-2017, 06:46
I buy the MoFi stuff off the shelf, $30 bottle, (I've seen it on sale for $25 lately), and after cleaning a hundred records I've still got more than half left. I use the brush that came with my RCM, I don't scrub hard unless it's real dirty, using one of those overpriced MoFi brushes. I don't bother with clean water rinse, the stuff doesn't call for it. And hey, it works! I try not to stress about it. Whether to use alcohol, or not, or clean water rinse, well there is always more than one way to skin a cat. I'm sure there are many ways to clean a record that actually work. Just get in there and do it, see what works!

But the best by far stylus cleaner is the Zerodust. What I like to call the, "Booger in a box", just a sticky gob in a small plastic box, and you dip the needle into it. And the dust sticks in the goo, and leaves your tip clean. No chemicals, no liquids that may get sucked up the cantilever, if you've got an aluminum tube. And no having to stroke it with a tiny brush! Which accounts for crooked cantilevers half the time. Shop around and you can find them reasonable, even comes with a good magnifier in the lid to inspect your work. And it lasts forever, rinse and it's good as new.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

ReggieB
31-03-2017, 07:00
That's the weirdest sex toy I've ever seen, but hey, whatever gets you through the night.

Don't knock it until you've tried it.

magiccarpetride
31-03-2017, 16:33
Don't knock it until you've tried it.

Saying something is weird doesn't automatically mean I'm knocking it.

magiccarpetride
31-03-2017, 16:41
I buy the MoFi stuff off the shelf, $30 bottle, (I've seen it on sale for $25 lately), and after cleaning a hundred records I've still got more than half left. I use the brush that came with my RCM, I don't scrub hard unless it's real dirty, using one of those overpriced MoFi brushes. I don't bother with clean water rinse, the stuff doesn't call for it. And hey, it works! I try not to stress about it. Whether to use alcohol, or not, or clean water rinse, well there is always more than one way to skin a cat. I'm sure there are many ways to clean a record that actually work. Just get in there and do it, see what works!

But the best by far stylus cleaner is the Zerodust. What I like to call the, "Booger in a box", just a sticky gob in a small plastic box, and you dip the needle into it. And the dust sticks in the goo, and leaves your tip clean. No chemicals, no liquids that may get sucked up the cantilever, if you've got an aluminum tube. And no having to stroke it with a tiny brush! Which accounts for crooked cantilevers half the time. Shop around and you can find them reasonable, even comes with a good magnifier in the lid to inspect your work. And it lasts forever, rinse and it's good as new.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I'm using Mr. Clean Magic Eraser for cleaning my stylus. The tiny micro fibres grab onto the stylus when I drop the tonearm on the Magic Eraser's surface. Then when I lift the tonearm up, the microfibres grab all the dirt, dust and tiny hairs, leaving the stylus spotless. I do it religiously after every listening session, and it works like a charm. Basically costs peanuts, and can be purchased at any grocery store.

karma67
31-03-2017, 17:23
yep another vote for mr clean here

alphaGT
31-03-2017, 17:42
I'm using Mr. Clean Magic Eraser for cleaning my stylus. The tiny micro fibres grab onto the stylus when I drop the tonearm on the Magic Eraser's surface. Then when I lift the tonearm up, the microfibres grab all the dirt, dust and tiny hairs, leaving the stylus spotless. I do it religiously after every listening session, and it works like a charm. Basically costs peanuts, and can be purchased at any grocery store.

The same concept I guess, just a sticky surface for dust to stick to. And way cheaper! I paid $30 for the Zerodust. But the gel in the Zerodust covers more of the tip, it sinks deeper, I don't know is that makes any difference? But I will remember the Mr. clean eraser, clean your tip, and take crayon off the wall! For one tenth the price!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

magiccarpetride
31-03-2017, 18:00
The same concept I guess, just a sticky surface for dust to stick to. And way cheaper! I paid $30 for the Zerodust. But the gel in the Zerodust covers more of the tip, it sinks deeper, I don't know is that makes any difference? But I will remember the Mr. clean eraser, clean your tip, and take crayon off the wall! For one tenth the price!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Zerodust may be safer to operate. The danger with Magic Eraser is that it does grab the stylus real hard, so if you jerk it, you risk breaking the cantilever.

GJO
01-04-2017, 08:24
I like this stuff https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Watches/Bergeon-Professional-Cleaning-Rodico/B008YMGYBU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1491034956&sr=8-1&keywords=jewellery+cleaning+putty

karma67
01-04-2017, 08:32
Zerodust may be safer to operate. The danger with Magic Eraser is that it does grab the stylus real hard, so if you jerk it, you risk breaking the cantilever.

mine doesn't,you cut the magic eraser into small squares to use it,not the whole block! :D

Nickfna
01-04-2017, 17:28
I like this stuff https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Watches/Bergeon-Professional-Cleaning-Rodico/B008YMGYBU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1491034956&sr=8-1&keywords=jewellery+cleaning+putty

Have been using magic eraser for a while but this stuff looks very Interesting, and for £6 on fleabay its worth a shot.

struth
01-04-2017, 17:31
keep records clean and you shouldnt need it :)

Barry
01-04-2017, 19:47
keep records clean and you shouldnt need it :)

Agreed!

Gazjam
01-04-2017, 21:54
Never warmed it up Ive tried carbon but didn't like it with fluid. Personally I use a tonar wet goat

Who me?
https://livestockconservancy.org/images/uploads/general/Spanishkid.jpg

Audio Al
01-04-2017, 22:04
Clean records are a must , End ;)

struth
01-04-2017, 22:27
Who me?
https://livestockconservancy.org/images/uploads/general/Spanishkid.jpg

BaaaH!!

Audio Al
01-04-2017, 22:31
Shh

Or you may get Marco involved ;)

magiccarpetride
02-04-2017, 01:46
keep records clean and you shouldnt need it :)

If the LP pressing plants were decent enough to package clean records to begin with, there would be no problem. That not being the case, we have no recourse but to clean them before we play them for the first time.

Macca
02-04-2017, 09:26
If the LP pressing plants were decent enough to package clean records to begin with, there would be no problem. That not being the case, we have no recourse but to clean them before we play them for the first time.

I think Grant is talking about cleaning the stylus. Of course records need to be cleaned, I've had new ones that look like they were pressed down a coal mine.

blackstar
02-04-2017, 10:33
I've just bought a KAB EV-1 and am looking forward to testing it out. Taking all that's been said on this thread into consideration, what cleaning fluid would be best? I'm more than happy to make it up myself.

Cas
02-04-2017, 13:18
I've just bought a KAB EV-1 and am looking forward to testing it out. Taking all that's been said on this thread into consideration, what cleaning fluid would be best? I'm more than happy to make it up myself.

I used to use a KAB EV-1 along with the L'Art du Son cleaning fluid, small bottle costs little over £30 and makes 5 litres enough for many many records.

blackstar
02-04-2017, 14:25
Exactly what I was thinking....cheers.

Haselsh1
02-04-2017, 14:56
I have always used 75ml of high purity demineralised water with 5ml of surfactant and then 20ml of isopropanol or Propan-2-ol if you prefer. I keep it simple and ignore a lot of the bullshite.

struth
02-04-2017, 15:12
I have always used 75ml of high purity demineralised water with 5ml of surfactant and then 20ml of isopropanol or Propan-2-ol if you prefer. I keep it simple and ignore a lot of the bullshite.

Similar here. I use a bit more alkeehol though, and my secret ingredient. Been doing it this way forca long time. Records are great and may machine is still going strong after 10 years. Still on the first pads too which is some going

blackstar
02-04-2017, 15:16
What's the secret ingredient then?

struth
02-04-2017, 15:23
Wouldnt be a secret then would it :eyebrows: you wouldnt use it. Folk are conservative mostly. Im more of an artisan, and like trying things. Works fine without it, but better with.

Barry
02-04-2017, 15:34
What's the secret ingredient then?

HP Brown sauce?

struth
02-04-2017, 15:39
How did you guess?:doh:

petrat
02-04-2017, 15:46
Ah, I get it ... encourages you to lick the records clean :D
Should try peanut butter ... delicious.

magiccarpetride
02-04-2017, 15:47
I think Grant is talking about cleaning the stylus. Of course records need to be cleaned, I've had new ones that look like they were pressed down a coal mine.

I stand corrected. And apologies to Grant. Cheers!

struth
02-04-2017, 15:50
Ah, I get it ... encourages you to lick the records clean :D
Should try peanut butter ... delicious.

I did mention it before and got slated so i keep it to myself now. I KNOW it works,and thats all that matters to me.:)