Something IMPORTANT that I think we should all read... [Archive]

DSJR

08-01-2010, 17:32

Below is a very recent quote from Alan Shaw on the Harbeth Forum. I think it's too important to the long term survival of this industry to ignore. Hope Alan won't mind.....

"Your audio industry - challenges and opportunities ...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

.... in uncertain and fast-moving times.

The discussion about expensive accessories on another thread here has, led significantly off the track from the core issue I was tying to make. Let's separate it out and dissociate the underlying issues from the specifics of speaker stands, cables, etc. and look at the big picture. Audio dealers here at the CES yesterday are focussed on one issue, and it has absolutely nothing to do with the minutia of this product over that. It's survival. You may not believe that the business side of the audio industry has any relevance to you as a lone consumer. You'd be wrong. How, where and on what you spend moulds and defines the future industry as it always has. You have tremendous economic power. You do shape the future.

Now, I've been completely misunderstood these past few days as I've explained how I feel about the fragmentation of the industry around me. I've drawn attention to the core problem which is, in the longer term, that insufficient numbers of young people are interested in and willing to pay for high-end audio. Although one contributor didn't agree with me, the demographic facts are obvious to anyone who age profiles attendees at a hi-fi show or audio dealers. It really doesn't need to be proven. It's as obvious as profiling attendees at the local bingo club minus the blue rinse.

Bearing in mind that this Harbeth User Group information is read, has some small influence and long term archival value, I'd like to lay down, in black and white, on behalf of the entire industry exactly the position we the remaining industry find ourselves in. These are the facts, supported by independent Research companies - they are not Alan Shaw's 'angle', they are certainly not, as suggested Harbeth trying to gain commercial advantage. As the contributor noted, we are in a strong position, and it's because of that we can say here what many others cannot or dare not say publicly. You many not like it. You may not want to hear it, but it needs to be said. And I hope you'll see why we are so hostile to money wasted on what some would call fringe or even quack products.
Quote:
A contributor commented ....Personally, I'm sceptical of talk in the audio industry about "we need more young people to take part". This is not new - the trade magazines have been writing about this for many years now. And yet, the industry survives, and the really good companies even thrive. Harbeth, for example...

The manufacturing/selling end of the audio business is consumed with this issue. It is an exceptionally serious problem. Yes, the trends are not new, but the industry is a shadow of its former self; shrinking by the month You may not see that from consumer-side.

Quote:
1 in 4 companies in the UK Hi-Fi industry could change ownership as a result of the current economic climate, claims leading financial analysts Plimsoll... the market could be set for a prolonged period of consolidation. ..."I am sure any director worth his salt would agree that, in the current climate, there are simply too many companies chasing too little market. ..The UK Hi-Fi market is still widely regarded as one of the UK's most fragmented sectors. In our report we analysed the UK's leading 130 companies are rated each on their acquisition attractiveness this will tell you which companies are set to be buying and which are exposed to takeover.

These are very hard times for the industry indeed. It cannot survive the changes in consumption habits plus the recession unchanged.

We here must continue to promote real value for money, real engineering and real long term satisfaction for the consumer. As always, the consumer can decide what's important to himself, but I fear that when there is no specialist audio industry to pass to our children for their pleasure, we will all bitterly regret it.

Above all, "Support your local dealer", buy honest-to-goodness products and allow him to make a reasonable living so that he can be there when you need him most and you can and will make a difference. Please think twice about who you are supporting with your expenditure at dealer and product level. We will not give any space on this site to products which we believe are pulling against our view of the industry and its survival. But, I encourage you to please pop along to your dealer - he'll be delighted to see you - and take his advice on what will work best for you.
__________________
Alan A. Shaw
Designer, owner
Harbeth Audio UK "

John

08-01-2010, 17:53

Its tough times for sure I think there are many here who face a uncertain future including those in the Hifi industry
I think places like this foster a better understanding between dealers and buyers, but people will usually have a bit of skeptism until they build up a good working relationship
I also think some distributors and manufactures take the piss with high mark up, its a challenge the industry has to face otherwise every body gets tared with the same brush

DSJR

08-01-2010, 18:08

So true..

There are commercial firms like Rega who still make wonderful value products (their amps and tuner are great value as well) in addition to the cheekily expensive CD and amp (Isis/Osiris) that apparently outperform Salisbury's product at several times the price, and I must still give a shout to Cambridge Audio and current Arcam, not "our" meat perhaps, but technically sound and sensibly designed by all accounts.

Smaller "bling" companies may survive as they're "bespoke" and I suspect the likes of EAR will carry on at their new high prices as long as Tim wants to do it. I do hope that Glenn Croft is doing ok, as his products are very honestly priced and, like Tim, he seems to get a very fine performance out of fairly standard components IMO - (Tim dresses his products up in VERY expensive casework I think)..

Harbeth are religiously monitored by their MD who refuses to go with the tide. They have order books going into months... I know of at least two other companies who quietly changed overall ownership to their main creditor/bank to clear outstanding debts apparently and another one who would happily sell up if the offer was right.....

What a shame :(

MartinT

08-01-2010, 18:28

The problem with dealers, being the interface between manufacturers and customers, is that they are so variable and often carry their own agenda. I do support dealers and I have tried to nurture relationships with them but the response I get from them ranges from making the sale and never contacting me again to a true attempt at preserving the relationship.

However, in three instances, it is the manufacturers who have made genuine attempts to satisfy me and keep me as a customer. In all three cases (Ayre, PS Audio and Pass Labs), I feel that it is they who have made all the effort (I know they are American companies but the same principles apply). In two cases dealers were found to fulfil my order and in one case a direct sale was made as there simply wasn't a local dealer who could sell to me.

Dealers are in a different survival race from manufacturers and many have their eye off the ball through diversions like AV (home theatre) or computer-based music. I wish one good dealer could satisfy my needs across the brands that interest me but all too often I have to play 'identify the dealer' using the manufacturer to guide me. Is that the way it should be? If I was a manufacturer, my dealer base would be my major concern.

Themis

08-01-2010, 19:09

AV amplifiers have progressed (in a good way) enormously the last ten years.
Today, they have a nice preamp stage, can drive many speakers, have excellent built-in D/A converters, room autocalibration, stream internet radios and music servers and decode every digital format you can throw at them.
The same route is true for multi-format laser players.

I think that AV is draining a huge part of the previous 2-channel market (very few people feel the need of having a separate hifi amplifier and even less feel the need for a dedicated CD-only player).

As a result, the market is condemned to evolve.

Alex Nikitin

08-01-2010, 20:23

MartinT

08-01-2010, 21:32

I have yet to hear an AV amp that in any way competes with the best of high end stereo equipment, but I take your point Dimitri that to most users it represents more than good enough. In any case, an AV oriented dealer is not going to compare products from the two different camps.

As for CD, I agree that the standard was inadequate (let's be thankful that Philips' original standard of 14/44 wasn't accepted by Sony), but D/A technology has taken us to the point where CD can, at its best, approach to a close level the performance of SACD and DVD-A. It's not great, but compared with iPod playback, it's way above what can be achieved with personal equipment (the youth's standard).

DSJR

08-01-2010, 21:45

When I first met Mike Creek in 1992 (to show him my newly developed output stage configuration, later used in Creek Audio amplifiers from 4240 to the current Destiny series) he asked me: "why did you design an audio amp? The Hi-Fi industry is dead, there is no future in it." 17 years later it is still not quite dead, thought...

On another side, I personally think that the main contributor to the decline in hi-fi art is the compact disc. It did lower the requirements by essentially killing the music recording quality and converting true high-fidelity audio reproduction art into something akin to painting artificial colours over a dead body (of a 16-bit digitally processed sound). What we have now is the result - the skill is mostly lost, first of all in the sound recording and editing areas, as the real quality is just not required.

Alex

I have to vehemently disagree with you Alex. Compact Disc SAVED a declining industry back in the mid eighties (I was there on the shop floor) and contributed to the far superior sounds we can get from records these days by raising the bar quite severely.

Nowt AT ALL wrong with 16 bit Red Book as long as the mastering is done right. I agree that 24 bit mastering allows a greater room for error/tinkering etc but the wonderul mid fifties jazz recordings that have been lovingly mastered to CD are testament in my ears that there's nothing at all wrong with CD. Todays problem in sound quality is the record company execs, not the recording or engineering - I bet the original uncompressed sound files are waiting for the pendulum to swing back...

Spectral Morn

08-01-2010, 21:48

Alex Nikitin

08-01-2010, 21:48

D/A technology has taken us to the point where CD can, at its best, approach to a close level the performance of SACD and DVD-A.

I would disagree on that. 16 bit 44.1 kHz recording is nowhere close in quality to a properly made hi-res (24 bit 96 kHz or higher, without much DSP used) recording and no amount of digital or analogue trickery could change that. It is possible, however, that published SACD and DVD-A recordings are just not made particularly well or the D/A conversion used was not up to the required standard for hi-res. As I've said, the recording and editing skills are lost and even the top of the art high-resolution audio technology can not make up for that. The CD lowered both requirements and expectations.

Alex

Themis

08-01-2010, 21:52

I have yet to hear an AV amp that in any way competes with the best of high end stereo equipment.
You are right, of course.

Nevertheless, let's compare things comparable in the same price tag :
A mid-high priced AV amp (£1000), has so many functions (dac, streamer, video upconversion, equalization, source connectivity, 7-channel amp) that the stereo amplifier part hardly represents 15% of its price. If we compare it with a £150 amp it is no worse, I assure you.
In the same way, a Yamaha DSP-Z11 (£3500) can be easily compared (the sonics) with any usual sub-£1k solid state amplifier.;)
And I will not mention Primare AV amps, the Pioneer Susano, or others.

DSJR

08-01-2010, 21:54

Apologies Alex, I think I get your point now, except the criticism of Red Book CD.

Doesn't SACD have loads of spurious output noise too between 25 and 30Khz or higher.

Alex Nikitin

08-01-2010, 21:55

I would just point the finger at digital as a whole reason.

Regards D S D L

Digital is just a technology. The blame is with the music recording industry - it did use that technology for essentially robbing their customers, offering an inferior quality and increasing the profits at the same time. Digital was used not because it was better, but because it was cheaper, easier and more profitable. We were cheated by the likes of SONY and it is the same story today.

Alex

Spectral Morn

08-01-2010, 22:00

You are right, of course.

Nevertheless, let's compare things comparable in the same price tag :
A mid-high priced AV amp (£1000), has so many functions (dac, streamer, video upconversion, equalization, source connectivity, 7-channel amp) that the stereo amplifier part hardly represents 15% of its price. If we compare it with a £150 amp it is no worse, I assure you.
In the same way, a Yamaha DSP-Z11 (£3500) can be easily compared (the sonics) with any usual sub-£1k solid state amplifier.;)

The pre-amplifier section is rubbish even in an amp at this price point (used to sell these ). Way to much noise and digital processing going on. However hook up a good valve line stage to the power amplifier and the jump in quality is huge...still not as good as a similarly priced integrated or pre-power in my experience. Anyway Denon AV amplifiers at least the older ones are better than the newer ones same goes for Yamaha too imho/e. I have a Denon A1SE and its fantastic for home cinema its much better than my Yamaha 2700 which is only a few years old.

Regards D S D L

Themis

08-01-2010, 22:02

As I've said, the recording and editing skills are lost and even the top of the art high-resolution audio technology can not make up for that.
This is, unfortunately, becoming true. :(

I'm not sure it's because of redbook, though. The business model of the music industry is more to blame, perhaps.

EDIT: posted too slowly, it seems we agree. ;)

Spectral Morn

08-01-2010, 22:03

Digital is just a technology. The blame is with the music recording industry - it did use that technology for essentially robbing their customers, offering an inferior quality and increasing the profits at the same time. Digital was used not because it was better, but because it was cheaper, easier and more profitable. We were cheated by the likes of SONY and it is the same story today.

Alex

Hi Alex

I agree with that and was just about to expand on the point (it was to narrow)...but you have done it for me. Digital will provide the means to control our every move/activity and choice...many say it offers more choice and in some ways thats true, but imho its a short lived expansion...just watch as it starts to fold in on its self in the years to come.

Regards D S D L

Themis

08-01-2010, 22:06

The pre-amplifier section is rubbish even in an amp at this price point (used to sell these ). Way to much noise and digital processing going on. However hook up a good valve line stage to the power amplifier and the jump in quality is huge...still not as good as a similarly priced integrated or pre-power in my experience. Anyway Denon AV amplifiers at least the older ones are better than the newer ones same goes for Yamaha too imho/e. I have a Denon A1SE and its fantastic for home cinema its much better than my Yamaha 2700 which is only a few years old.

Regards D S D LRubbish is a big word. I disagree, naturally, but I see your point.

It's not by chance, that I owe one of the two (rare) Denon AV amp models that were engineered and assemled in Japan. ;)

webby

08-01-2010, 22:33

Sadly, audiophiles are in a minority. The way most people listen to music these days probably has just as much to do with the way it's recorded. What's the point of making hi-res recordings when they're listened to on portable devices or computers at low bit rates?

As long as the majority are happy, nothing will change.

Just out of interest, can I post a link to another (non audio) forum where I started a thread asking how people listened to music nowadays? There are a lot of young people on the forum and I wanted to know how they listen.

Could a Mod let me know if it's ok to do this? It's an external link.

Spectral Morn

08-01-2010, 22:40

MartinT

08-01-2010, 22:42

16 bit 44.1 kHz recording is nowhere close in quality to a properly made hi-res (24 bit 96 kHz or higher, without much DSP used) recording

The proof is in the listening. Yes, the best SACDs and DVD-As sound fantastic and I have some of each. However, the best CDs do sound amazingly close and are very acceptable for such an old format. The difference is there (and I am very much an advocate of hi-res), but it doesn't render my large collection of CDs unlistenable.

webby

08-01-2010, 22:44

Ok, here's that link. Remember, it's not an audio forum, it's an online football game with a lot of users. I just wanted to get an idea of how people listened to their music.

http://www.itsagoal.com/community/forums/viewtopic.php?id=EFA5A1CA046E40FC3562AC51F7FCB19F

There are 3 pages. A few silly replies on the first.

Spectral Morn

08-01-2010, 22:45

Rubbish is a big word. I disagree, naturally, but I see your point.

It's not by chance, that I owe one of the two (rare) Denon AV amp models that were engineered and assemled in Japan. ;)

I know its a bit harsh...I will moderate it to poor and seriously compromised for 2 channel audio.... The Denon A1SE is a stunner it has weight and scale that makes the Yamaha sound light weight...I was very lucky to get it S/H for £500 a few years ago. I bought the Yamaha S/H too for about the same and frankly despite the more modern processing the Denon eats it on Dolby Pro-Logic, Dolby Digital (THX) 5.1 and 6.1 and the DTS options are all fantastic too.

Regards D S D L

Peter Galbavy

09-01-2010, 08:53

The world moves on. Simple. Audiophile is just another word for enthusiast in the wider context. See all the other industries that have had the same issues. The two most obvious to me personally are automotive and the Internet. Both were serious but fun things to do once upon a time. Both are not very much "utility" industries, one changing over decades the other over a few years.

Not sure whether it's the right prefix but "sadly" the same has happened and is happening to the audio industry and no amount of toys-out-of-pram hysterics is going to make it go back to the fabled golden age. We can sit here, out the front of the virtual pub, and wave our sticks at the youngsters walking past and telling them the don't know how to live... Best thing to do, probably, is to enjoy what we can, try to pass on the positives to the next lot and be done trying to change the world.

Themis

09-01-2010, 09:01

Sadly, audiophiles are in a minority. The way most people listen to music these days probably has just as much to do with the way it's recorded. What's the point of making hi-res recordings when they're listened to on portable devices or computers at low bit rates?
It has always been like that, I guess. It was the same in the seventies.
Young people (me) were listening music through devices that utterly compromised sound (cheap turntables and cassette players). Very far from the live performance our parents were used to. And no better than mp3 players.

Audiophiles will always be a minority.

Joe

09-01-2010, 09:14

Indeed. Young people are also a) relatively poor and b) tend to move house a lot, so cheap portable equipment is far more attractive to them than an expensive 'fixed' system.

Clive

09-01-2010, 10:03

A few comments on this interesting thread:

1) The quote from Alan Shaw ends up with "Support your local dealer". This is harking back to the old days. The world is different now. Most people do not buy this way any more. It may be the best way to take weeks over your buying decision and hearing the different options but like it or not, it's not the way people buy today. Viral marketing a great method for companies to use, especially small ones. There are great examples on this BB.

2) CD didn't kill hi-fi, it prolonged the illness. It gave a stimulus for people to buy product. This is a big generalisation......CD mostly sounds the same (to most people), ie products are not hugely sonically differentiated the way record decks always were and still are. A lot of this is due to the relatively consistent frequency response that CD brings.

3) People (not just young 'uns) simply have many more distractions today. Sitting down listening to music for 2 hours per day is tough to do, most people just don't have the time available for reasons of crazy work ethics and the broader range of technology based interested that are available today.

There is still a place for hi-fi, as has been stated earlier it is a minority hobby and it will remain so. It has to find its place in today's world, not the 1970's so telling people to support their local dealer is as useful as supporting Pounds, Shillings and Pence.

Themis

09-01-2010, 10:06

Nice post Clive. :)

technobear

10-01-2010, 01:59

"Support your local dealer"

I've had a system based around the Transporter for 3 years now. Nothing in my current system came from a dealer (and nor could it have).

If and when I move on to something different, I will need to ask questions about whether I need foobar or winamp, USB or FireWire or a sound card, synchronous or asynchronous, this DAC or that DAC...

I can just imagine walking into Paul Green in Bath or Mike Manning in Taunton or Audio T in Bristol and asking about these things :lol:

99% of UK dealers don't even sell DACs !!!

Never mind that the computer audio revolution has completely passed them by... they couldn't even sell me a fucking DAC! :steam:

I can think of only two dealers who would have a clue about what I was asking and only one of those two would actually have the experience to give me useful answers.

The rest of the UK hifi industry is redundant as far as I'm concerned.

I wrote to Arcam 5 years ago (when I actually owned some of their kit) suggesting that they needed to add digital inputs to all their CD players. They didn't reply. They didn't add the inputs either. Now they are still trying to sell standalone CD players to a tiny and shrinking market. Buyers want digital inputs so that they can get better sound from their computer/playstation/DVD player/TV/Squeezebox/etc.

Very few UK manufacturers seem to realise that an audio revolution has taken place. Naim and Linn seem to be going the right way, although why a company of Linn's stature couldn't employ a software engineer to give their offering a decent interface is beyond me. AVI also seem to have got it. Arcam are headed down the road to nowhereville along with most of the others.

Clive

10-01-2010, 14:27

I think we are polarising into 2 sects.

1) Linn / Naim brand image and lifestyle. Glossy adverts etc, alignment with Aston Martin type branding (many not quite as expensive but hopefully it's clear what I mean).

2) Viral marketing, products sold direct so no dealers. Maybe some country distributors for far away places. Products promoted via enthusiast BBs. Companies such as Beresford and Trans-Fi.

It seems dealers don't sell products people want, and their business model is out of date. They will have some customers but they are ever decreasing in number.

hifinutt

10-01-2010, 15:07

i try and support my local dealer as much as possible however recently i emailed 6 to get prices and availabily on a pre amp costing around 3-4 k and got very little reply except from one dealer. maybe their junk mail filter is too active !!

sastusbulbas

10-01-2010, 15:24

I would disagree on that. 16 bit 44.1 kHz recording is nowhere close in quality to a properly made hi-res (24 bit 96 kHz or higher, without much DSP used) recording and no amount of digital or analogue trickery could change that. It is possible, however, that published SACD and DVD-A recordings are just not made particularly well or the D/A conversion used was not up to the required standard for hi-res. As I've said, the recording and editing skills are lost and even the top of the art high-resolution audio technology can not make up for that. The CD lowered both requirements and expectations.

Alex

I sort of disagree, one problem with higher resolution audio was that most of the re-issues and re-masters for SCAD and DVD-A were nothing more than copied from 16/44.4 material, some were even DAT recorings re-mastered. IE people were buying nothing more than a re-master of old music with no more resolution at all.

On teh other hand I am a little disapointed wit hcurrent trends and pricing, the industry is nothing more than a commercial piss take with no technical merit these days.

One of many of todays music and hifi industry problems is cost versus performance and I am not talking about magazine claims of performance which jsut about anyone with common sense and an internet connection can see through, just about everything is overpriced and poor value for money. We now have poorer quality CD albums due to the nature of industry trends and compression, we also have a ridiculously overpriced audio industry selling blinged up tat worth no where near it's retail, with absolutely no technical or performance merit for the price, everyone got greedy and more snobby.

Once the internet became popular most younger users found out they had been conned by the industry and dropped out. Now we have forums full of people arguing about cables and other such areas of audio performance many of which can only be theoretical performance gains when one takes into consideration the actual technical performance of most domestic audio within todays less than acceptable domestic surroundings. Sadly the truth is just about every technical claim about an audio component or cable or support is nothing more than a lie with teh manufacturer taking absolutely no interest in neutral musical performance or value, but purely interested in generating the most proffit for the least outlay by utilising the most imaginitive claims and technical babble.

Until the magazines and manufacturers clear up the cable and technical debates, and start providing the real kit, manufactured to a proper standard at real life prices it will continue to become a joke. At the moment there is no high end, only a "members club" where manufacturers know certain members of the population are still guillable enough to believe made up cack about performance, where they can tell people something different is better when in reality it is the same as last years but with a different cosmetic twist and so forth.

Magazines have became a joke, as has high end audio. This months HiFi Choice and te prices of CD players reviewed not to mention the colourfull articles is a direct reflection of the industry as a whole.

DSJR

10-01-2010, 16:17

Leaving AVI out of it, I think Cambridge Audio make some great kit at sensible prices, designed by someone who knows what he's doing and apparently, made by a Chinese computer board-stuffer happy for the extra business now computers are not very profitable..

I suspect that Arcam's stuff is similar in a way, as they now use far eastern manufacturing on their popular models at least (and far eastern finance/majority ownership too) I understand.

Phil Bishop

10-01-2010, 20:53

Dave,

An interesting initial post and something I have considered with two daughters and watching the "consumption habits" of the young. Surely in the mainstream audio market it is going to be the companies that embrace the new technology (computers, ipods) that do best - you mention one above.

Personally, I embrace the new challenges as a consumer. I am currently using a system which includes a £150 Cambridge Audio DVD player and an Apple TV and it is a superb flexible great sounding system which fits very well into a domestic environment and cost relatively little.

Is it not all a case of evolution, survival of the fittest, etc?

Phil

DSJR

10-01-2010, 20:56

Absolutely, hence the reason why Naim have introduced the mid sized UnitiQuti (or similar title). It's a "steal" at £1350 and apparently can easily be equalled for just a few hundred quid (in tacky separate boxes I admit) as all their gear can..

Barry

11-01-2010, 00:24

I sort of disagree, one problem with higher resolution audio was that most of the re-issues and re-masters for SCAD and DVD-A were nothing more than copied from 16/44.4 material, some were even DAT recorings re-mastered. IE people were buying nothing more than a re-master of old music with no more resolution at all.

On teh other hand I am a little disapointed wit hcurrent trends and pricing, the industry is nothing more than a commercial piss take with no technical merit these days.

One of many of todays music and hifi industry problems is cost versus performance and I am not talking about magazine claims of performance which jsut about anyone with common sense and an internet connection can see through, just about everything is overpriced and poor value for money. We now have poorer quality CD albums due to the nature of industry trends and compression, we also have a ridiculously overpriced audio industry selling blinged up tat worth no where near it's retail, with absolutely no technical or performance merit for the price, everyone got greedy and more snobby.

Once the internet became popular most younger users found out they had been conned by the industry and dropped out. Now we have forums full of people arguing about cables and other such areas of audio performance many of which can only be theoretical performance gains when one takes into consideration the actual technical performance of most domestic audio within todays less than acceptable domestic surroundings. Sadly the truth is just about every technical claim about an audio component or cable or support is nothing more than a lie with teh manufacturer taking absolutely no interest in neutral musical performance or value, but purely interested in generating the most proffit for the least outlay by utilising the most imaginitive claims and technical babble.

Until the magazines and manufacturers clear up the cable and technical debates, and start providing the real kit, manufactured to a proper standard at real life prices it will continue to become a joke. At the moment there is no high end, only a "members club" where manufacturers know certain members of the population are still guillable enough to believe made up cack about performance, where they can tell people something different is better when in reality it is the same as last years but with a different cosmetic twist and so forth.

Magazines have became a joke, as has high end audio. This months HiFi Choice and te prices of CD players reviewed not to mention the colourfull articles is a direct reflection of the industry as a whole.

Wow Statusbulba,

you certainly don't pull your punches but tell it like it is! Sadly I'm afraid I agree with much of what you say. With the onset of the iPod generation and the flaunting of DAB, it seems most people are just simply not interested in audio quality. The worse of it is, of course, that the software is being mixed in such a way as to conform to these demands: compressed lack of dynamic range, emphasis in the upper mid range to give it 'immediacy' etc.

There doesn't seem to be a lot we can do about the software, but when it comes to hardware it probably does explain my continued interest in 'classic' gear. All is not lost here, as has been displayed in this forum, there are some 'good guys' out there who care more about the audio quality of their designs, rather than making a fast buck. It is thanks to forum members that we know of the likes of Stanley Beresford, Dave Cawley, Alex Nikitin, Mike Holmar, PureSound and AnthonyTD (apologies to anyone I've ommitted).

Regards

jandl100

11-01-2010, 09:19

The world moves on. Simple.

Yup - and that is the crux of the issue as far as I can see it.

Comparing the state of any industry say 30 years ago with what happens now and I am certain you would see enormous change. That's not bad or good, it just is the way things work in our society.

1) The quote from Alan Shaw ends up with "Support your local dealer". This is harking back to the old days. The world is different now.

Yup - with that attitude Harbeth does not have a medium term let alone a long term future.

It seems to me to totally fail to address what Shaw states as the underlying issue - lack of support from younger generations. Tbh, from what he says, he's a dinosaur and is heading along the same evolutionary path as they did.

You need new business models now, and spending your time trying to prop up the old one is not a sensible way ahead.

Marco

11-01-2010, 09:41

Hi Barry,

All is not lost here, as has been displayed in this forum, there are some 'good guys' out there who care more about the audio quality of their designs, rather than making a fast buck. It is thanks to forum members that we know of the likes of Stanley Beresford, Dave Crawley, Alex Nikitin, Mike Holmar, PureSound and AnthonyTD (apologies to anyone I've ommitted).

Basically you're talking about SPPV, which is a prerequisite for any equipment or cables I recommend here, and a large part of what AoS is about. However, SPPV does not necessarily mean cheap! ;)

My feelings on the thread topic are already well known, so I won't repeat myself unnecessarily other than to say that my views align almost exactly with Steve (Sastus) and you.

The heyday of real hi-fi is gone, so hi-end aside (computer audio or traditional 2-channel) and equipment from the likes of those above you've mentioned, mostly what we're left with is convenience-over-performance/style-over-substance tat, and gadgetry, purchased by the gullible and/or undiscerning. Most wouldn't know what genuinely good sound was if it jumped up and bit them on the arse (unless it was demonstrated to them), simply because the vast majority of the general public haven't heard what solidly-engineered, properly designed audio equipment can do.

To your list of people above, I would add Mark Grant, for his amazing value for money cables, and even though he's not a member of AoS, and Glenn Croft. Quite simply, in terms of pure SPPV Glenn's designs are in a league of their own.

Who else makes a commercially available, superb sounding, hard-wired throughout, all-valve preamp with a built-in phono stage for £350!! You've heard a rather more expensive version yourself at mine recently, but the 'house sound' also exists in his entry-level models :)

Marco.

DSJR

11-01-2010, 09:42

But Harbeth have hugely full order books with around three months (at least) backlog and that's the way he wants it to stay, rather than opening upall sorts of accounts with dealers after no more than a fast buck... They're doing fine as they are I think.

The best Harbeth dealers (also Rega's and Croft's few UK dealers too) are long standing accounts that do a steady and reliable business with no huge peaks and dips.

It's a difficult situation I think. The three makers I mention above have interesting and reasonably priced products that are interesting to discuss and great to listen to/through. Rega had some cloudy times fifteen years or so ago yet are still here and introducing some Top End priced products.

I don't know the answer. if I did, I'd be as rich as Ivor T................

Barry

11-01-2010, 10:18

Hi Barry,

Basically you're talking about SPPV, which is a prerequisite for any equipment or cables I recommend here, and a large part of what AoS is about. However, SPPV does not necessarily mean cheap! ;)

My feelings on the thread topic are already well known, so I won't repeat myself unnecessarily other than to say that my views align almost exactly with Steve (Sastus) and you.

The heyday of real hi-fi is gone, so hi-end aside (computer audio or traditional 2-channel) and equipment from the likes of those above you've mentioned, mostly what we're left with is convenience-over-performance/style over-substance-tat, and gadgetry, purchased by the gullible and/or undiscerning. Most wouldn't know what genuinely good sound was if it jumped up and bit them on the arse (unless it was demonstrated to them), simply because the vast majority of the general public haven't heard what solidly-engineered, properly designed audio equipment can do.

To your list of people above, I would add Mark Grant, for his amazing value for money cables, and even though he's not a member of AoS, and Glenn Croft. Quite simply, in terms of pure SPPV Glenn's designs are in a league of their own.

Who else makes a commercially available, superb sounding, hard-wired throughout, all-valve preamp with a built-in phono stage for £350!! You've heard a rather more expensive version yourself at mine recently, but the 'house sound' also exists in his entry-level models

Marco.

Point taken. Apologies for omiting Mark Grant and for misspelling Mike Homar's name!

Will stay behind after class and write out 500 times .........

Themis

11-01-2010, 13:11

... the cassoulet's recipe.

Kris

11-01-2010, 21:02

most people are just simply not interested in audio quality.

Nope, I disagree. IMO the fact is most people don't know what audio quality is as they've never heard it. When I've had people round the house for tea etc, they've been bowled over by the sound. When I p[lug in their Ipods to my system, to a person, they never knew music could sound so fab at home. And my system isn't 'high end' by any means. They ARE interested in audio quality once they've heard it.

And why have they not heard it? because good quality Hi-Fi equipment is kept locked up in specialist audio dealers, whereas the people shop in Argos, Tesco, Asda, Comet. When was the last time you saw Arcam, Cambridge Audio or even Harbeth in Tesco? The fact that the Uk'sd best selling stereo is a Tesco special should tell companies the type of outlets that should be stocking their gear.

Most people don't know British Hi-Fi equipment exists. For those that have heard it exists, they laugh at paying £500 for a CD player, let alone the loony prices that some equipment sellers ask.

If British Hi-Fi manufacturers want to sell more, the answer is quite simple, Reduce the prices and get out of the rarified club atmosphere of perceptually snobbish unapproachable dealers, and get into Tesco, Asda, Comet and Argos. THAT's where the people are.

Themis

11-01-2010, 21:16

Kris speaks the truth, I recon. ;)
Nevertheless, I have to say that small manufacturers (like Glenn) who keep their prices normal, couldn't sell massively : they don't have the infrastructure to do so. It's a vicious circle... :(

MartinT

11-01-2010, 21:39

They ARE interested in audio quality once they've heard it

I do agree, Kris, that the uninitiated are bowled over by the sound a good hi-fi system can make. I have on many occasions amazed friends and colleagues with my system's reproduction. But the key question is: do they then go out and buy a system of their own? No, in most cases they do not. It simply isn't a priority for them because the pursuit and love of music requires that it be made a conscious priority.

Phil Bishop

11-01-2010, 22:02

If British Hi-Fi manufacturers want to sell more, the answer is quite simple, Reduce the prices and get out of the rarified club atmosphere of perceptually snobbish unapproachable dealers, and get into Tesco, Asda, Comet and Argos. THAT's where the people are.

Kris,

I 100% agree with you - well done! Some people may look down their noses at Richer Sounds for example, but they sell some great stuff (Cambridge Audio) and seem to be very successful.

There was also an earlier post which mentioned something about lifestyle changes and people not now sitting down to intently listen to music. Spot on! I am 50, no youngster, but still fit firmly in this category. I have music on (when I can) moving about the house, doing things - I sometimes just sit down for a few minutes and appreciate the sound quality (which is great). I sometimes have to go up to the spare room and listen to the headphone system and also have an ipod system. It is all flexible and gels - all the music is on a Mac and sent wirelessly wherever I want it....and it sounds excellent wherever I listen to it! That surely is the future and I think it holds a lot of potential.

Phil

Marco

12-01-2010, 12:53

Hi Kris,

If British Hi-Fi manufacturers want to sell more, the answer is quite simple, Reduce the prices and get out of the rarified club atmosphere of perceptually snobbish unapproachable dealers, and get into Tesco, Asda, Comet and Argos. THAT's where the people are.

How on earth would that work.... What do Tesco, Asda, Comet or Argos (or their staff) know about proper hi-fi equipment?

Would you be planning for a complete staff and management retraining programme throughout those companies at ground roots level?

And where would the demo rooms be? I could probably state 100 reasons why it wouldn't work.

Proper hi-fi equipment is bought by discerning people who require a level of expertise and experience on hand, and the ability to listen to said equipment in a proper environment before buying it and taking it home.

I'm sorry, but your idea is completely nonsensical (I'm referring here to the idea of selling quality hi-fi equipment in supermarkets such as the people on this forum would use - that to me is potty!), unless you meant it in some way which I haven't interpreted correctly :scratch: :)

Marco.

Alex_UK

12-01-2010, 14:07

Actually, I think the biggest problem is that cheap stuff now sounds loads better than cheap stuff 20 or 30 years ago - you get a lot of mini system for £150 these days, and technology has moved on a lot in speaker design (and graphic equalisers, of course! :ner:) There isn't such a massive difference in perceived sound quality as there once was. In the portable market, a cheap mp3 player will sound loads better than an 80s Walkman knock-off, to the average Joe Public. The only aspiration is for B&O or Bose, IMO.

Phil Bishop

12-01-2010, 15:50

Well, I am still with Kris although I think the likes of John Lewis may be more appropriate than Asda!

...and of course, there is the Net. I have a Beresford Caiman and fine it is too - I did not audition it, I just read up on it and thought that's for me. I never had that good experiences auditioning anyway and always took a chance. Apart from audition rooms not refelecting one's home environment, there was often some twerp sitting next to you tapping his feet and making you feel uneasy!

Alex, you should add B&W (Zeppelin) to the aspiration list - not for me, although I would not mind one for the kitchen!

Phil

DSJR

12-01-2010, 17:12

John Lewis used to have HiFi departments and the Brent Cross one used to be excellent at one time...

Look, we've always had different markets. In my youth, we had a fairly substantial Bush valve table radio and separate record player which we used every day before and after we had a telly (1961 IIRC). Other people had radiograms with a better "tone..." Older well off granddads or Doctors (and other well off older professionals) had "HiFi's" and I only saw early sixties equipment because of a shop in Berkhamsted (where we got our Murphy Astra TV from), another in hemel Hempstead with a 401 and separate Decca arm in the window and Hammonds in Watford, who, in their old building, had a good audio dept upstairs, with the usual Thorens, Garrard, Quad, KEF, B&W, Revox etc and I've just remembered a teenage sojourn there and asking about the Quad FM2 valve unit and the then brand new FM3, both looking all but identical in overall styling..

These days, we have the Tesco/Argos specials for peanuts, I-pods and other personals and in East Anglia, branches of Hughes Electrical, some of the larger ones selling a few NAD, Marantz and Wharfedale items amongst a few others (I think ours has the micro Denon DM30 series). Some of the teachers I've spoken to (who earn a pretty good wage for a very streesful job) tend to regard Bose as the bees doo-dahs, purely from the advertising on the backs of many mags. B&O is usually regarded as too expensive unless it's being considered by a businessman-made-good who wants to show off how successful he is..........

Hopefully the above isn't too far off what's going on. I'm sure things will balance out again when people start abandoning MP3's (and they will when high-speed broadband and huge cheap memory becomes more widespread) and hopefully the same for HD TV which can be got on Freesat apparently to replace the horridly over-compressed Freeview channels (which are significantly worse than the old analogue system in measurement and picture quality due not to digital, but over compression to squeeze too many channels onto one multiplex...)

Themis

12-01-2010, 17:18

I'm sure things will balance out again when people start abandoning MP3's (and they will when high-speed broadband and huge cheap memory becomes more widespread)
I'll start preparing the epitaph, right away. "(comp)Rest in piece" :lol:

Alex_UK

12-01-2010, 18:05

Alex, you should add B&W (Zeppelin) to the aspiration list - not for me, although I would not mind one for the kitchen!

Absolutely right, Phil - a guy at work was telling me all about his - and then how he has put all his (mid-range) separates in the loft now... He is convinced the Zep/ipod is better! (Not necessarily based on sound alone, of course.)

Unfortunately, "proper" hifi is now resigned to the enthusiast market, like us lot.

DSJR

12-01-2010, 18:31

But that's how it started in the 40's and 50's.....

jandl100

14-01-2010, 11:46

How on earth would that work.... What do Tesco, Asda, Comet or Argos (or their staff) know about proper hi-fi equipment?

....Marco.

Well, they know little or nothing, of course.

Nonetheless, Kris's point raises the fundamental issue that most folks don't even know that 'proper' hifi kit exists, beyond the likes of glossy ads in Sunday magazines for Bose.

Awareness needs to be raised, and not by hiding decent kit in 'snobby' hifi specialist shops which (I know from talking to many folks) make people feel really uneasy and out of their depth, even when they do know about their existence.

Decent 'low/mid-range' genuine hifi systems in John Lewis or Debenhams department stores (or, yes, even Asda) would be a fine way ahead to raise awareness of the commercial availability of the stuff, I think, and to just get people to try them. Here's an idea - why not a franchise or two in IKEA? (Assuming IKEA would go for it). Right sort of customer base, I would have thought and a very high throughput of punters.

DSJR

14-01-2010, 12:43

For years now, Richer Sounds appears to do very steady business day by day (as we all used to), yet in at least one location, the "audio salon" nearby is almost always empty, waiting for the one or two big spenders per month to hopefully keep them going...

Alan Sircom

14-01-2010, 23:30

There are several issues in one here:

1. People are less interested in music today. This is both true and false. People have more access to more music more cheaply than ever before, but this cheapens music in general. I have played audio evangelist/proselytiser several times; recently - a disturbing trend of late has been the rise of 'yes, but it's only music' dismissals of anything other than the sounds they get from their iPhone or their laptop speakers. There's no possibility of a 'wow' moment there.

2. Reduce the cost of hi-fi and sell at Tescos. If you index-link prices from 25 years ago, the cost of entry-level to relatively high-end hi-fi have stayed the same or even reduced over the years. Also, if you sell in Tescos, you face drastic price cutting and no possibility of demonstration. Plus, it wouldn't stem the tide of people moving away from separates audio - John Lewis abandoned hi-fi separates for a reason.

DSJR

15-01-2010, 14:25

Peter Galbavy

15-01-2010, 14:45

But surely with niche / specialist / high end equipment, in the audio world as well as others, it shouldn't be about production costs but also include a hefty premium for support - pre-sales and after-sales. And that is how you you distinguish one from the other.

The question about how you pursuade customers to patronise your company because of it's excellent service and products is another matter though.

MartinT

15-01-2010, 14:54

There's also the significant cost of R&D, unless you don't want your company to survive into the future. Manufacturers selling low quantities of high ticket items are not making the killing that some people are assuming. Manual assembly is another big cost with very small economies of scale.

Mike Reed

15-01-2010, 15:36

I still maintain there's a lot of greed going on with some of the US manufacturers for example.

I don't think you can just automatically raise retail prices every year in line with inflation........

But Naim have been doing just that with most of their offerings, for many, many, years. More than inflation in some instances.

Is it justified? An emphatic 'YES', it seems, from Naim's perspective. Are they still a global player? Again, 'YES'. Is customer support (servicing) still as dependable? Yes, albeit bloody expensive and more difficult to access (have to go through a dealer).

However, a possibly overlooked aspect to this philosophy is that a depreciation floor is created after a few years, ensuring a healthy (and relatively safe) market for/in secondhand kit, frequently leading to new sales.

They started as a cottage amplification industry with a viable business plan; look at them now! Turntables are about the only audio item (and cartridges) they don't design and manufacture.

At least Naim aren't essentially subject to import/export tariffs, distributors and currency fluctuations as are U.S. manufacturers, but after all. whoever the company is, surely their aim is to sell kit, and it's very competitive out there.

I don't think greed comes into it.

DSJR

15-01-2010, 21:11

I wasn't mentioning naims, but you beat me to it...;)

R&D in Top End audio Mr MartinT? Do leave off sir :lolsign: It's only the casework that gets changed more often than not and that's expensive. The electronic bits inside are quite often recycled circuits from yester-year updated with new transistors if necessary.

I'm getting on me soap-box again. It's a hate of mine, but well-heeled audiophools seem happy to pay for the exclusivity. Hope they enjoy it while they can..

MartinT

15-01-2010, 22:49

Clive

15-01-2010, 23:15

There's real R&D that takes place and in some instances there is cynical re-launching of barely modified product. I have experience of working with a few small companies, I know first hand how much effort goes into exhausting various technical approaches. I not saying that all companies are so fastidious but it does happen.

Alan Sircom

16-01-2010, 11:51

Electronics has never been so cheap.

I understand that Chinese imports are hideously cheap (and have been shown some prices as proof).

Top End audio isn't just expensive because of expensively finished casework. I still maintain there's a lot of greed going on with some of the US manufacturers for example.

I don't think you can just automatically raise retail prices every year in line with inflation and raise another 10% or more with each new generation either....

Gotta go - laters..

The growth of the Chinese market is relatively easy to understand. There are a lot of 1930s amp circuits and 1050s preamp circuits that are out of patent (not that matters much) that can be lifted perfectly with almost no R&D costs. Pimp it up in a nice case and some funky components and no-one knows better. If it ends up sounding like a poor knock-off of a Quad 22 preamp that starts rolling off at 2kHz, dig deeper, chances are it is a knock-off of a Quad 22 preamp and starts rolling off at 2kHz. It won't be the first or the last one.

OTOH, there are some people doing genuine innovation. Some are coming from China (the Consonance products, for example... there's some clever stuff going on there), but many are still coming from the rest of the world. And not all are simply rehashing old application notes or Wireless World projects from 50 years ago.

As to the rip-off prices, while there's an increase trophy products from a lot of companies and there are big name exceptions, a lot of rank and file high-end products (that people frequently overlook) prices are frozen or are even getting cheaper if you compare them to general inflation rates. Think how much an entry level Audio Research preamp or a Naim pre/power was in 1985 and compare that to the cost of similar products 25 years later, for example. Bear in mind that £1,000 a quarter of a century ago is worth £1,970 today.

DSJR

16-01-2010, 15:11

Sorry Dave but people like Nelson Pass (Pass Labs) and Charlie Hansen (Ayre) do serious research and are widely respected for their designs. They do not sit on their laurels and their products are audibly superior, not just tarted up cases. You're being disingenuous in trying to lump them in with the real charlatans like Bose.

I wasn't lumping them with Bose, who have done some research of their own - to their ends admittedly - but point taken. We're still dependant on the recordings we play though...

DSJR

16-01-2010, 15:15

The growth of the Chinese market is relatively easy to understand. There are a lot of 1930s amp circuits and 1050s preamp circuits that are out of patent (not that matters much) that can be lifted perfectly with almost no R&D costs. Pimp it up in a nice case and some funky components and no-one knows better. If it ends up sounding like a poor knock-off of a Quad 22 preamp that starts rolling off at 2kHz, dig deeper, chances are it is a knock-off of a Quad 22 preamp and starts rolling off at 2kHz. It won't be the first or the last one.

OTOH, there are some people doing genuine innovation. Some are coming from China (the Consonance products, for example... there's some clever stuff going on there), but many are still coming from the rest of the world. And not all are simply rehashing old application notes or Wireless World projects from 50 years ago.

As to the rip-off prices, while there's an increase trophy products from a lot of companies and there are big name exceptions, a lot of rank and file high-end products (that people frequently overlook) prices are frozen or are even getting cheaper if you compare them to general inflation rates. Think how much an entry level Audio Research preamp or a Naim pre/power was in 1985 and compare that to the cost of similar products 25 years later, for example. Bear in mind that £1,000 a quarter of a century ago is worth £1,970 today.

Thank you for posting this Alan.

Regarding your last sentance, I wish my income had gone up in line with inflation from 1985. I'd be able to out Marco with his system if so :D

twelvebears

21-01-2010, 12:14

This thread set me thinking about the root cause of this decline and why as time has moved on, those interested in 'proper' audio systems have got older and older.

The conclusion I came to is that it is the inevitable result of digital audio, specifically the MP3, but let me explain....

Young people have and will always be interested in music, it's one of the fundamental ways that they express themselves and it connects them with each other and differentiates them from their parents. However, things have changed massively in the last 20 years and that's impacting the audio industry. When I was growing up and all through my formative 'audio years', if you wanted to listen to lots of music with decent quality, you pretty much had to have a 'proper stereo' and you ended up investing lost in your music collection whether it was tapes, records or CDs. BUT when digital audio went MP3, suddenly you could acquire thousands of songs very easily and cheaply AND listen to them with pretty good sound using an iPod or headphones plugged into a computer, so why bother with a full size hi-fi which I can't take with you?

For me, this realisation has come from living with my partner Susy and her 14yr old son for the last two years. George LOVES music, and rap interests aside, has very good taste and likes a lot of the same stuff we do. BUT, and this is the big difference, he has NO interest in what it gets played on. Yes he and his friends freely admit that my system is 'awesome' and sounds great but they all think that having a massive stereo with separate bits is odd unless is as a home cinema set-up.

By the time I was George's age, I was TOTALLY into hi-fi AND music, as were at least 3 of my close friends, but with everything else that's around today, especially gaming, and considering hi-fi is mostly a 'boy thing', I can't imagine there are many teens who would be interested today.

As much as I hate to admit it, the home audio system is probably only going to have a future as a home theatre system which happens to do music too....

I'm afraid guys that we're a dying breed, and I'm only 38!