Computer vs. Music Streamer ?

[Adrian Ho]

After some weeks of mildly inquisitive study, I now believe I grasp the rudiments of what's required of a 'typical' system configuration if I want to house WAV/FLAC files (music) on an NAS, access the music via a router linked to an "X" from a remote device (iPhone or iPad, Android phone or tablet) and play it through a DAC into a pre-amp/amp configuration leading to the speakers. Whew.

Question is: For the "X" above, why choose a computer over a music streamer?

I believe when it comes to computers, a lot of members of this Forum gravitate to Raspberry Pi's, which I suppose is partly because of the cost-benefit and fun tinkering factors, but also because of the choice of OS (Linux for example), thereby eschewing Apple and Microsoft. But are there other reasons? :scratch:

And for those who've opted for music streamers, why have you done so? :scratch:

I'm still up in the air about what to do, but think I'd like to avoid Mac Minis and possibly go for a Kangaroo Plus (NewEgg) or Chromebox/VivoMini (Asus) or Sirius B (Ockel).

The other day, however, an audiophile friend recommended I consider a music streamer from Aurender, which seems to fulfill the role of "X" without needing to buy a DAC or a computer, though at a higher price.

Hmmmm. :scratch: I'm sure others have sat on the fence where I'm sitting now. Hence this new thread.

[AlfaGTV]

Well, i've been through almost every concievable solution to your current situation. And to be clear i don't have a conclusive answer... ;)
I have tried Windows computers but they are a PITA due to the antivir and constant fecking updating, therefore MacMinis are my answer to low noise, low maintenance, high sound quality musicplayer. I also use a few RaspberryPis as endpoints but in my opinion they are best suited for the task of converting the file based audiostream to either an USB or SPDIF based audiostream. (The Pis as Music Players tends to be a frustrating user experience imo)

My last word on File Based Audio?
Roon server native on a IntelBased QNAP, controlled by iPad/iPhone/Android, playing to RaspBerryPi Digi+ or MacMini. These last ones are called Bridge in the Roon hierarchy.

Oh, i also have a Bladelius Embla which is a few years old but still packs a massive punch in digital playback area. I regularly use it as a DAC from a MacMini Roon Bridge but also use its internal UPnP playback capability from the QNAPs built in DLNA/UPnP server capabilities.

All my music is stores on said NAS in FLAC, DSF or WAV format. (Oh and a few thousand MP3s too.. )

If i try and be wise about this it boils down to three keywords to me:
User Inter-Face
Sound quality is not an issue in any of my situations today and most solutions where a fee is involved should satisfy. I have yet to discover a free software solution that comes anywhere near the UX and usability of the big ones. (Aurender, Auralic, Bluesound, Sonos, Roon etc)

[Adrian Ho]

Well, i've been through almost every concievable solution to your current situation. And to be clear i don't have a conclusive answer... ;)

Appreciate your detailed and candid response, Mike.

I suppose I don't need to use an internet connected router if I'm hooking up the NAS directly to a Windows mini computer, and can thereby minimize the PITA by avoiding the 'fecking updating'. (I'm only intending to play music in one room at present.)

I've seen Roon mentioned before, but have now looked it up and ... impressive. (But I would have to allow access to the internet for it to work properly.)

Others have praised the JRiver app. What are your thoughts on it as a user interface?

[jandl100]

I've taken an (over?) simplistic approach (as per the suggestion of Justin user211) and simply hooked up my laptop to my DAC with a USB cable.
Music streaming services like Spotify, Tidal etc and also YouTube and internet radio are directly available.
I think it sounds great and the available music catalogue is beyond wonderful!

I also have my CDP still hooked up but very rarely use it. My LP rig is in the process of being sold.

I remain baffled why a more complex solution is needed.
I'm clearly missing the point! :scratch: :lol:

[Contentious bit -- I also have the sneaking suspicion that a direct connection as above gives a more immediate and lively sound than going via a pukka streamer box. At least, that is my experience of hearing quite a wide variety of streaming systems in others people's homes)

[willbewill]

I use Vortexbox software as my NAS/streamer and am very pleased with it, easy setup and remote control via laptop, smartphone or my Squeezebox Duet. I have a Musical Fidelity V link 192 and V DAC II connected to the Vortexbox for play back plus a number of remote players, RPis with onboard DACs running PiCorePlayer and also the Duet. I wouldn't go down the computer as a music player route unless it was purely dedicated to the task and all non related stuff stripped out plus a good usb DAC attached.

[Paul-H]

I have settled on a very simple approach to my needs

MP3 & FLAC files are on my PC, my PC is connected to an AUX input on my Amp via a HP Wireless dongle (One of these http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/371605333445 )

Media is controlled on my PC via JRiver Media Player which works with my Android Phone and Tablet which is used as a remote control

All nice and simple and works well, with good quality sound.

Obviously the PC needs to be on, but then again it on most of the time anyway so that's not an issue for me.

Sometimes you don't need to over complicate things, unless you want to that is ;)

Paul

[glenann]

To add my thoughts. I've used streamers for years, having started with Linn DS, Majik, then Akurate. Then I used a Pi for a couple of years and now I use a microRendu streamer.
The files are stored on a WD HDD connected to a Pi running Max2Play. This is set running LMS.
The mR is USB only into the DAC of choice. And I use Squeezepad on the iPad, which I truly love as a programme.
It all runs, for me at least, faultlessly! It sounds every bit as good as my Akurate did, which at the time was about £4500. I suspect it sounds better actually. Certainly a significant step up from the Pi to my ears...

[Henchard]

After some weeks of mildly inquisitive study,............

The other day, however, an audiophile friend recommended I consider a music streamer from Aurender, which seems to fulfill the role of "X" without needing to buy a DAC or a computer, though at a higher price.

Hmmmm. :scratch: I'm sure others have sat on the fence where I'm sitting now. Hence this new thread.

Been there, and I went eventually down the music server route and bought an Innuos Zen Mk2 which has been excellent so far. For me the advantages of having everything including the ripping all in one box controlled from a tablet application outweighed the extra cost. It also probably has more WAF (sexist?) as my wife only has to pop a CD into the drive and it's ripped and the metadata added automaically (only obscure CDs generally require intervention).

Just to say that Innuos support has been superb; when one software update didn't work correctly they connected to the server (with my permission) and sorted it remotely. That has bee the only 'glitch' so far.

[Adrian Ho]

I have settled on a very simple approach to my needs

MP3 & FLAC files are on my PC, my PC is connected to an AUX input on my Amp ...

Thanks, Paul.

I was doing things the same way for a while when my CDP was being serviced, but as soon as I got it back everything I played suddenly sounded much richer and fuller. I supposed that was due to the DAC in the CDP. So I borrowed a friend's DAC and put that between my laptop source and the amp and VOILA: a big difference. Hence this journey thus far in search of (first) my own DAC.

Having read Jerry's and Malcolm's responses above, it seems very pricey DACs aren't necessarily the only answer. Indeed, Musical Fidelity appears to pride itself on furnishing DACs that can compete on performance with high-end equipment but that don't cost an arm and a leg.

I know several members are enthusiastic about iFi Nano DACs, which are also very reasonable.

Just to complicate things a bit ... :doh: There's a lot of second hand equipment here in Hong Kong and some of it is very reasonably priced. Even high end stuff shows up in consignment centres for 25 cents on the dollar.

[struth]

Unless you have a very good soundcard then a dac of sorts is advisable. The rpi,s are very good for money, and there are lots of different dacs and os,s to choose from or you can take a digi feed out to your own favourite external dac.
You can also run a 10 metre (and maybe longer)usb repeater cable from a pc to your dac if you wish with no issues if computer is a distance away. Mine is in kitchen and it goes to my headphone dac in livingroom and uses jriver via a smartphone. Works well as does the rpi on main system.(running moode)

[Pharos]

I'm really annoyed that there are so many options available, and every time this question is asked on a forum there seem to be even more names for systems discussed, and despite new attempts to derive a really good solution, that doesn't seem to happen. There is also far too much interfacing needed in many cases.

This leaves me residing on the fence, wanting it all to 'fall out' into an obvious and simple best solution, something like the Mac OS did to Windows when it appeared, simple, instinctually easy to use, efficient, neat, and error free.

Sainsburys a few years ago analysed its shampoo stock to find that they had over 35 types of shampoo available, and they thought it excessive and rationalised it down.

This is all a symptom of PC in which we all have a view, and therefore these are all equally valid.
("So, when the music starts, let's all have a go at designing a system children")

Well no, actually, we all have views which have very varied degrees of knowledge and expertise behind them; some know more than others and this can confer a greater ability.

Here I am with a lovely system, waiting for a resolution to all this, but I am not hopeful - look at the current state of human political interaction, conflict, little cooperation, and little sign of agreement or concensus.

[struth]

Only thing i can say to that is, you dont have to fling money at it for a suitable solution. For most, it can be very much good enough to spend under £200 for solution. In some cases much less. Obviously much can depend of your level of ability technology wise. There is usually a small level of learning curve unless spending a fair bit extra to have that removed. Simplest is a cable to a dac. Streaming systems like a rpi have an element of setup envolved but once you grasp the principles its easy enough. Hell i grasped it so anyone can... i would also fling in the cheap but very good chromecast audio as well. For £30 its a surefire winner depending on what you need. Great for things like Spotify etc

[Manicatel]

I'm beginning to think along similar lines to the OP.
I have been using a MacMini, Audirvana & DAC for the last few years after selling my Naim CDP.
The MacMini is beginning to slow up a bit, (2009 model) so I've been thinking of either upping the RAM from 4 to 8GB, or getting a newer (2012ish) MacMini with at least 8gb ram already in, or even ditching the Mac & going for a Bluesound Vault. This would enable me to store my existing collection on its internal 2tb disk as well as dip my toe in the water of streaming, Tidal, etc.
Also, it's not clear (to me anyway) how the SQ from a Vault into my DAC would stack up against the SQ I'm getting from the Mac/Audirvana into the DAC.
Really not sure which way to go at the moment, so this thread is very relevant to me.
Matt.

[AlfaGTV]

Appreciate your detailed and candid response, Mike.

I suppose I don't need to use an internet connected router if I'm hooking up the NAS directly to a Windows mini computer, and can thereby minimize the PITA by avoiding the 'fecking updating'. (I'm only intending to play music in one room at present.)

I've seen Roon mentioned before, but have now looked it up and ... impressive. (But I would have to allow access to the internet for it to work properly.)

Others have praised the JRiver app. What are your thoughts on it as a user interface?

I have a Master license of JRiver and use it on Mac and occasionally on one of my Win-machines.
It is , to me, a good software that has grown into something that no longer serves a dedicated purpose. It's a do-it-all solution that takes some time and experience to configure down to a dedicated music player. Once there it works just fine with the complement of JRemote as a remote Control. It sounds good, is fast and flexible. But, in the end it is a solution for those that don't mind a computer in their listening space. I do...
Therefore i mostly use JRiver today as an UPnP server to light weight renderers such as RaspberryPi's or similar.

[Rothchild]

I'm really annoyed that there are so many options available, and every time this question is asked on a forum there seem to be even more names for systems discussed, and despite new attempts to derive a really good solution, that doesn't seem to happen. There is also far too much interfacing needed in many cases.

This leaves me residing on the fence, wanting it all to 'fall out' into an obvious and simple best solution, something like the Mac OS did to Windows when it appeared, simple, instinctually easy to use, efficient, neat, and error free.

Sainsburys a few years ago analysed its shampoo stock to find that they had over 35 types of shampoo available, and they thought it excessive and rationalised it down.

This is all a symptom of PC in which we all have a view, and therefore these are all equally valid.
("So, when the music starts, let's all have a go at designing a system children")

Well no, actually, we all have views which have very varied degrees of knowledge and expertise behind them; some know more than others and this can confer a greater ability.

Here I am with a lovely system, waiting for a resolution to all this, but I am not hopeful - look at the current state of human political interaction, conflict, little cooperation, and little sign of agreement or concensus.

I think that if you are very specific about your needs, standards, budget and DIY preferences (in a setting up computers sense) then the range of options drops quite quickly. IMO there is a broad time-cost-quality (pick 2) matrix at work with something like an RPi taking a bit longer to tweak out but representing great value and sounding good vs a shop-bought solution costing more, but being essentially 'plug and play' (thus saving time).

For me one of the significant advantages of an SBC (such as RPi) over a 'proper' computer is the low power consumption and the lack of fans whirring a away.

[Adrian Ho]

I'm really annoyed that there are so many options available, and every time this question is asked on a forum there seem to be even more names for systems discussed, and despite new attempts to derive a really good solution, that doesn't seem to happen. There is also far too much interfacing needed in many cases.

This leaves me residing on the fence, wanting it all to 'fall out' into an obvious and simple best solution ...

... but I am not hopeful - look at the current state of human political interaction, conflict, little cooperation, and little sign of agreement or concensus.

Yes, too true, Dennis! Some manufacturers are starting to bundle streamers, dacs and amplifiers together, but that isn't where I want to go (yet). The trouble for me is that I'm not sure spending big money is really justified, as many members of this Forum seem extremely content with far less costly solutions. Of course, I'm sure many high-end audiophiles as well as hi-fi sales guys would disapprove of low-cost (= in their minds, low-end) solutions, which is certainly understandable in the case of the latter. Only one (seemingly honest) salesman told me that he thought spending in excess of £800-1000 was not required by most mere mortals unless the other system components were of a truly extraordinary nature.

[Pharos]

Perhaps Struth I did not make my stance clear; I do not regard myself as particularly technologically challenged, (T. Eng level), but I am resentful that I have to research products to the extent that I do, and risk beta testing them only to find them inadequate and then start again.

I am more interested in science than learning architectural implementations, and I have other things which I wish to devote my time to.

Similarly when I buy a pair of shoes I do not expect to have to research and verify the source of the leather, the dyes used, the stitching thread material, and the sole compound and adhesives used.

This problem exists in many areas of life; we have to take the word of others because we cannot become experts at everything ourselves; we have time and life limitations, and we want some pleasure/relaxation surely.

With CD players we have to accept that the designers have done their best, and we buy a complete package, and then decide if we like it, although there is a market in modifications.

[AlfaGTV]

...
Similarly when I buy a pair of shoes I do not expect to have to research and verify the source of the leather, the dyes used, the stitching thread material, and the sole compound and adhesives used.
...
:D Hahaha!
I appreciate that this is really a jungle for all but the most die hard IT-Audio freaks out there, like me.. ;)
But nevertheless, when buying shoes or streaming equipment you make some very informed choices:
It needs to fit - Your feet or your IT-Environment (Cabled/WiFi, With or without DAC/USB etc.)
It has a cost - Pride of ownership vs DIY feelgood ( A Burmester Music Server do inflict some damage to the budget when compared with a Pi!)
You require service for some time - ruggedness, flexibility etc (Streamers tend to age more than a computer, but on the other hand computers are quite volatile in their own way)
Quality - Comfort or appearance, both equally valid! (Referring to both the UX and the sound quality)
etc etc.

[mikeyb]

Less than an hour building and setting up a Pi with addon DAC and away you go, use MoOde software and you've saved yourself a fortune. MoOde is rock solid with no issues in months of use here.

Spend a few £100 on a dedicated streamer, watch the value plummet months later then they make it obsolete with a new model and different firmware.

With a Pi setup you can have almost any streaming service you wish, internet radio, your own files, all for around £100, you'll spend £450 (SoTM sms200) or £650 (mRendu) to better it, plus the cost of a standalone DAC too, oh and software running elsewhere too 😉

Bluesound Node 2 is worth looking at at around £450, reviews place it close to the two I mentioned above and an active Forum with help is handy.

The main issue with any streamer is the software, which is why I like MoOde, Tim who developed it is only a Forum post away to help solve problems, he updates/improves it regularly, and the sound quality is superb.

I run mine via my TQ Claymore amp into PMC 21 Speakers and up until recently when I tweaked my VERY expensive vinyl setup it was giving it a run for its money

I think we need to have Pi Demo unit doing the rounds if only to convince the non techies how easy it is to set up 😁

[Vanzapp]

I've recently changed from a pc source feeding a Naim Superuniti to a Melco N1A through a Chord 2Qute dac in to the Superuniti. Before I bought the Melco/Chord I took my pc and Naim to the retailers (Signals Hifi) and auditioned various combinations. What I have now far out performed using the pc as a source. Both the Melco and the Chord made significant improvements to sq. I was especially surprised at how much difference there was between the Melco and pc. If you can hear a few different examples of what you're after your ears will tell you which you prefer.

[pgarrish]

I'd suggest a cheap laptop/pc with a CD drive in it running logitech Media Server (assuming you need to rip CDs, otherwise a decent NAS like a Synology or QNAP running LMS works well) then install the Chromebridge plugin. A Chromecast audio into your DAC or direct into the hifi as your player. Other than setting up Chromebridge (a slight faff) it works really well and is cheaper even than a Rpi. If you find it all works well, you can then start on the never ending treadmill of better (more expensive) kit. Im assuming you have a wifi router already.