View Full Version : Cagey's first Audio"fool" Mains Cable
After all this talk about mains cables, I decided to try it myself, after all, how could 1m of fancy cable make a difference in the many Kilometres of cable leading up to my house?
If it did not work, I could send it back.
Well, I am almost embarrassed to say it's still here. Many of you will now be laughing, but hey it's my money and it is my ears/brain combination that are telling me that the system is better with it feeding my mains regenerator.
I can't tell you how or why, and I don't really care.
To start my experiment I contracted Mr MCRU, as I am sure he would have something suitable for my budget, and some advice to offer. He has always been down to earth and offered me good honest advice.
He sent me a chunky metre long cable fitted with a Furutech FI-E11 copper Schuko plug, and a FURUTECH FI-11 copper IEC connector. The cable itself is (probably) the Neotech NEP-3001 III UP-OCC cable. As I am sure you will agree, not the most Audio"fool" cable you can get, but sufficiently foolish enough for a cable that won't make a blind bit of difference, right?
Wrong.
Scoff away....
Originally I got it to try between my mains regenerator and amplifier, but changing to monoblocks made this impractical, so it moved to wall to regenerator. How could this positioning make a difference when I am still using basic leads elsewhere?
I have no idea, but I tried it. I left it in my system for a week, just listening to music. The system sounded fine. I didn't notice an immediate difference. Then I changed it back t the standard lead.
It sounded like my stylus had picked up a load of dust. The soundstage and dynamics had flattened. I checked the stylus and it was clean. I listened to a few tracks, and swapped it back to the "foolish" lead. Ah, that's better I thought.
This was not expectation bias, as these things don't make a difference, right?
Still not believing 100% there could be a difference, I subjected a friend to a test without telling him what I was doing and asked which he preferred. His response was "foolish". He preferred the system with the upgraded lead in place.
So what are the downsides?
For me the additional cost reading forums is going to have.
The AG1500 also has the connectors close together and the Furutech IEC connector does not leave much room for the female IEC plug to be fitted in the IEC socket next to the schuko socket.
So after all of that, I have heard the difference interconnect cables can make, and now I have experienced the difference a mains cable has made.
I think I need to go and sit down and try and find the marbles I have lost....
Seriously though, if you have any doubts try it for yourself with an open mind (and clean ears!). They can make a dramatic difference (in my experience).
Bigman80
22-03-2017, 17:47
Good writeup. Him much did your cable cost ?
Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk
£150 posted to me in France.
I forgot to mention that it has "internal filtering inside the plug and IEC".
It's built to a very high standard, and has changed my opinion on mains cables.
Bigman80
22-03-2017, 18:06
Wow ! You're a brave man taking the plunge lol.
Fair play
Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk
I have been using Mains cable No11 from MCRU in my system for a number of years now Kev although mine is 4mm spec for the power amp. Preamp cable is same but not quite as beefy. The Furutech plugs are great but a :cool:bit tight which I suppose is a good thing.
Glad you found it made a positive difference to your system. Many folk don't believe cables make a difference but as you found out they do!:cool:
brian2957
22-03-2017, 18:08
Nice write up Kevin . I hate to say it but '' told ya so '' :D I've been using aftermarket mains cables for many years and I've always been able to hear the difference .
A few weeks ago I contacted David at MCRU and asked him to build me a cable to a budget I had . David built me a cable to that budget and when it came the first thing I noticed was the build quality . Absolutely fantastic . When I plugged it into my amp the resultant ,very audible , improvement in SQ meant that I ordered another . Again , an improvement in SQ , which has only improved with use . I will be ordering another to feed my preamp when funds become available .
Davids mains cables are easily the best I have come across and come highly recommended from me too . :)
Wow ! You're a brave man taking the plunge lol.
Fair play
Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk
Not that brave when you consider I have had it for several weeks, and have only just paid for it.
I have had to chase Mr Brook for his PayPal address to transfer the cash over.
brian2957
22-03-2017, 18:14
Aye me too . David didn't push me for payment and gave me plenty of time to decide if the cable was suitable :)
He must be rolling in it... :eek:
brian2957
22-03-2017, 18:16
He must be rolling in it... :eek:
Nope , my mains cables are different and not as expensive as yours matey :ner:
Still excellent though :)
Made a real detectable difference or just the placebo effect
Without scientific proof I will go with the latter ;)
Don't choke on the placebo... ;)
I was expecting/hoping to send it back - is that negative expectation bias?
Mr Brook was happy to "amuse me" by sending me a cable.
The rest is history.
brian2957
22-03-2017, 18:53
Aye a group of us up here all suffered from the placebo effect the day we had a mains cable bake off . Unfortunately we all heard the same thing each time a different cable was put into the system :rolleyes:
Mains cables make a audible difference - so what's new. :)
Anthony K
23-03-2017, 12:16
;) Another has come over to the dark side - Welcome
bronzeage
23-03-2017, 13:08
As ever with these things, results are variable - but in my household, every member can hear audible differences (not just loudness) when I change from one power cable to the next. Frankly, without my audio-fool power cables, the system is simply not as good, and by some margin.
While it could be all in my head, I'm not sure it could be in the head of multiple people, who, aside from me, don't even know I have switched cables - they just comment that the sound is 'better' or 'worse' when they notice an obvious difference.
I have even tried getting somebody to change the cable without me knowing what it is - I have no trouble in identifying 'better' from 'worse' (note, not the cable itself - just better or worse).
This is an age old argument, and there is probably no resolution until science can prove exactly why these things happen.
I guess if it is all in the head - well, that is where sound is created, so what the heck!
sq225917
23-03-2017, 16:11
If the socket and plug are 'filtered' then there's no reason it shouldn't sound different, even if it only contains a simple rc filter.
Of course if a mains cable made a difference between wall and mains regenerator unit then you have to figure your regenerator unit is basically shit.
My experience was very similar. I made my own cable, using a 2M length of Furutech power cable, and some First Watt ends. Like you I hoped not to hear a difference. Like you I cannot see for the life of me how it works? I inserted it in my system, behind my preamp. And heard no real difference. But, I put good work and money into the wire, so I kept it in place. A week later I'm playing records and I'm noticing a bit of clarity and air in the top registers. So it got me thinking, could it be that power cord? So I swapped it back for the plain one, and sure enough, the benefits I observed disappeared! I put it back, and it returned.
It certainly isn't any revelation, while I do hear a difference it certainly isn't any order of magnitude. But, as with any tweak, they are cumulative. It all adds up.
So don't feel too foolish, it seems to be a "thing" these days, everyone with open mind are hearing it. I am at a complete loss as to why?
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Of course if a mains cable made a difference between wall and mains regenerator unit then you have to figure your regenerator unit is basically shit.
Why so, Simon? I'm sorry, but that's rather lazy thinking. If I understand it, the mains cable Kevin's bought has more to its design than simply a filter...
I know you don't rate these things (so we'll have to disagree here), but the design of both Furutech connectors, fitted to the cable, compared with basic 'off the shelf' items, will in my experience have served to increase the integrity of the connection between the regenerator unit and the mains supply.
You also should consider that if active filtering, contained in the mains cable in question, has been applied 'at source' (at the wall), before the regenerator, then this could be cleaning up the mains/reducing distortion in the mains waveform to a degree sufficient enough to give the regenerator itself an easier task.
Therefore, I'm not surprised that the cumulative effect of the above was to improve the overall efficiency of the regenerator, and hence why Kevin noted the sonic improvements he's described.
None of this of course is necessarily factual; it's simply my theory of what may be happening, based on experience in these matters, and when assessing them, desire to think outside the box and look beyond what is simply the obvious.
Marco.
:popcorn: :popcorn:
H-E-L-L-O... Is there anyone out there?? ;)
Marco.
Dubster68
27-03-2017, 16:33
Upgraded cables and an unswitched mains socket did it for me.
I don't have any switched sockets in the house. ;)
Interesting comments from Nick (lurcher), 'elsewhere', about a possible technical explanation for the efficacy of your new mains lead, even though it's being used between the wall and your regenerator:
I have little interest in the thread you are talking about, but I do know that MCRU sells mains regenerators, and I also know that with a lot of them he sells cables that contain the DC blocker board I make.
As to why this makes a difference I assumed the main reason was that the input of the mains regenerator is a large toroidal transformer, so is likely to suffer in the same was as any of them.
And he goes further....
...I am saying that DC in the incoming mains may be having a effect on the operation of the regenerator. It will be affecting the transformer on the input to the regenerator, this may be affecting the internal supply in the regenerator, and this may be affecting the AC that the regenerator is producing on its output....
It may also be preventing DC on the input causing the transformer in the regenerator from partly saturating and creating a slew of RF harmonics that may be getting into the output of the regenerator.
Kevin, does the mains lead you bought from David contain the DC blocker in question?
Marco.
It has his "bespoke filters" in the plugs, but there is no sign of a DC blocker sized box.
Ok, then could you ask David what the filters are designed to do, and if they address DC on the mains - or maybe there's something on his website about them you could link to?
Is the mains cable you bought from him on his website? :)
Marco.
He won't give out details easily. It took me a while to find out what the cable was.
My mains regenerator converts AC to DC and back again. Prior to the mains regenerator my amps hummed. Since fitting it, they are silent, so the regenerator is taking care of the DC element.
I will have a look on his website and find something similar, as the cable I bought was not on there.
Ok, just trying to find out if what Nick said about the DC blocker is relevant to your cable. Let me know what you find.
Marco.
It is probably close to this - https://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/mains-products/1343-mcru-no95-se-mains-power-lead.html but you won't get much detail from the listing.
Obviously, I don't have a UK plug, or fuse...
Personally, I don't care what people elsewhere may say. If mains did not make a difference, why do regenerators and balanced mains units exist?
I have DC on my mains, my amp hummed. I used a DC blocker and it went away. The DC blocker "protected" one piece of kit, so I went for a mains regenerator which protects the lot.
No humming toroidals = happy Cagey.
Ok, just trying to find out if what Nick said about the DC blocker is relevant to your cable. Let me know what you find.
Marco.
The MCRU inline DC blocker is £250 which is suitable for low current devices. The one for regenerators/power amps etc. is £450.
Too expensive for me.
Some Info from Mr Brook:
Kevin,
Your mains lead is simple, UP-OCC copper which is the best copper ever made for mains power leads, same as Marco uses in his ultimate mains leads just a different manufacturer of the cable, yours is Neotech, Marco's is Oyaide. The wire comes from the same factory, as Furukawa are the only company in the world who make UP-OCC copper as they own the machine it comes from!
The Neotech is quite special as it uses a hybrid of silver plated and pure OCC as well as a drain wire and foil shield to act as a faraday cage to keep mains noise at the plug end not the equipment end.
Add MCRU's bespoke cable filters which are small enough to fit inside the plug end and the IEC end to stop the individual conductors (live, neutral and earth from acting as aerials picking up radio waves).
The Furutech connectors on each end are cryo treated and also use very high grade copper.
The cable is covered in acoustic braiding.
DC blockers were not requested by Kevin even though it would make his mains regenerator sound even better, I work to budgets and the figure Kevin gave me would not allow for a DC blocker mains lead which sells at £450+
Almost every mains regenerator would benefit from a dc blocker as most are basically a large transformer which usually hum or buzz because of DC on the mains, Nick's design of DC blocker stops hum and because it blocks DC from entering the mains results in improved sound quality throughout the system.
Okies... What we really need to establish is what the "bespoke cable filters" in the plug have been designed to do (filter out), and whether applying such filtration *at source* (before your regenerator) could be making its job easier, thus allowing it to function more efficiently, which may be one of the reasons why you're hearing improvements using this cable.
Aside from the high-quality construction of the cable in question and its connectors, the electrical and sonic effect of which I'm familiar with in my own system (as I use a non-filtered version of the same cable), the fact is that ALL filters, when introduced into the mains supply, do something, bad or good.
They simply don't do NOTHING, and I'd wager that the plug filters in question are somehow influencing the performance of your regenerator unit and improving its efficiency, or impacting positively on the mains in some other way. It'd be interesting to measure the waveform on your mains supply, before and after simply changing the cable on your regenerator (and also note readings, in terms of any reduction in impedance) and see what happens.
Anyway, we can surmise what may be technically responsible for any change occurring with the use of this cable David sent you, until the cows come home, but the most important thing is that YOU can hear improvements that have resulted in YOU enjoying your music more. Subjectivists use their ears to build their systems, not test equipment, so they will always act as the final arbiter.
Enjoy :cool:
Marco.
One of the things that may lead to a better, more open sound with the cable is the increase in conductor cross section, the drain wire and the screening. I believe that my standard cable is a 1mm CSA conductor. Not particularly big for a cable feedback by the entire system. It may have been creating a bottleneck when peak current demands were occurring.
Either way, I hear a difference with this cable (otherwise I would have sent it back) and that is all that matters.
Others can believe what they want, but until you try it, you will never know if you would hear a difference or not.
brian2957
28-03-2017, 10:34
Either way, I hear a difference with this cable (otherwise I would have sent it back) and that is all that matters.
Others can believe what they want, but until you try it, you will never know if you would hear a difference or not.
Exactly :)
Indeed, and furthermore, the notion that absolutely *everything* in audio, which with the scantest of thought applied, seemingly doesn't comply with the laws, as outlined in 'Johnny's book of physics', or appeases one's blinkered and entrenched 'world view', must automatically be imagined, is more laughable than anything Kevin's done! ;)
Marco.
One of the things that may lead to a better, more open sound with the cable is the increase in conductor cross section, the drain wire and the screening. I believe that my standard cable is a 1mm CSA conductor. Not particularly big for a cable feedback by the entire system. It may have been creating a bottleneck when peak current demands were occurring.
Either way, I hear a difference with this cable (otherwise I would have sent it back) and that is all that matters.
Others can believe what they want, but until you try it, you will never know if you would hear a difference or not.
Kevin, I've been taken to task for not replying to you here, so here I am..
Why didn't you, or why don't you, try a Mark Grant mains cable for fifty notes or thereabouts. Mark's already stated the current rating in the past (I forget the exact value now, but it was here on AOS), and it was higher than the £400 Naim one which started that particular conversation. I find this cable works well in the main system either because of, or in spite of, the increased conductor area and shielding. The plugs are proper UK standard too, and it's not expensive when labour in making it so neatly is involved. Worked for me over a shorter home made cable with similar IEC and MK 13A plug.
I do hope the magic ingredients in your new cable aren't of the VDR variety. We 'did all this' back in the 80's and after acknowledging a difference, the general eventual conclusion is that they were worse on the whole. Glenn Croft used them for a while and in recent years, he recommended I remove it from the old preamp I had, as well as the pukka mains filters he used to made (I still have them and continue to use the 4A one on one of my sources, I think it's the turntable). Although 'filters' are deeply frowned on in these circles, the Roxburgh 6A filter from Farnell (also fifty quid) works a treat on older noisy digital sources and I understand these filters work both ways, preventing less well designed power supplies from polluting other gear in the system..
Wakefield Turntables
28-03-2017, 11:43
They simply don't do NOTHING, and I'd wager that the plug filters in question are somehow influencing the performance of your regenerator unit and improving its efficiency, or impacting positively on the mains in some other way. It'd be interesting to measure the waveform on your mains supply, before and after simply changing the cable on your regenerator (and also note readings, in terms of any reduction in impedance) and see what happens.
Marco.
Easier said than done. What aspects of the Waveform are you trying to measure? Even if you did measure a difference how are you going to attribute a specific difference in sonic presentation to any one of the specific changes in the waveform? More importantly how are you going to prove which part of the mains lead created the waveform difference in the first place?
Kevin, I've been taken to task for not replying to you here, so here I am..
Why didn't you, or why don't you, try a Mark Grant mains cable for fifty notes or thereabouts. Mark's already stated the current rating in the past (I forget the exact value now, but it was here on AOS), and it was higher than the £400 Naim one which started that particular conversation. I find this cable works well in the main system either because of, or in spite of, the increased conductor area and shielding. The plugs are proper UK standard too, and it's not expensive when labour in making it so neatly is involved. Worked for me over a shorter home made cable with similar IEC and MK 13A plug.
I do hope the magic ingredients in your new cable aren't of the VDR variety. We 'did all this' back in the 80's and after acknowledging a difference, the general eventual conclusion is that they were worse on the whole. Glenn Croft used them for a while and in recent years, he recommended I remove it from the old preamp I had, as well as the pukka mains filters he used to made (I still have them and continue to use the 4A one on one of my sources, I think it's the turntable). Although 'filters' are deeply frowned on in these circles, the Roxburgh 6A filter from Farnell (also fifty quid) works a treat on older noisy digital sources and I understand these filters work both ways, preventing less well designed power supplies from polluting other gear in the system..
I am still waiting for Mark Grant to get back to me after contacting him by e-mail (several times), hence going elsewhere.
I know he is a busy chap, but it is not always convenient for me to contact a supplier by phone. My job sometimes requires my phone to be turned off.
I am quite happy with this cable, so I am thinking of ordering another three very soon.
Maybe I will,get a bulk discount if I ask nicely?
Easier said than done. What aspects of the Waveform are you trying to measure? Even if you did measure a difference how are you going to attribute a specific difference in sonic presentation to any one of the specific changes in the waveform? More importantly how are you going to prove which part of the mains lead created the waveform difference in the first place?
All good questions, Andy! Sadly, I have no suitable answers.
All I was doing was putting forward possible suggestions as to what might help explain the improvements Kevin is hearing. How those would be carried out, however, is up to anyone who wishes to try them.
Trying to dig deeper into explaining the possible cause, is certainly better than [like some] immediately dismissing out of hand Kevin's legitimate experiences, simply because what's been reported doesn't fit with their rather blinkered world view! ;)
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
29-03-2017, 07:02
All good questions, Andy! Sadly, I have no suitable answers.
All I was doing was putting forward possible suggestions as to what might help explain the improvements Kevin is hearing. How those would be carried out, however, is up to anyone who wishes to try them.
Trying to dig deeper into explaining the possible cause, is certainly better than [like some] immediately dismissing out of hand Kevin's legitimate experiences, simply because what's been reported doesn't fit with their rather blinkered world view! ;)
Marco.
For me, not being able to answer this question is the biggest problem with this addicton (sorry I mean hobby). I'm not so sure about changes with power cables. I find changes hard to detect but this is maybe because I've made all my own? Now with respect to tonearm cables and IC's I don't seem to have the problem and can detect subtle and sometimes profund changes. I understand that a lot of effects and variables can be measured but we can't attribute these to certain things we hear. I don't have the equipment, time or patience (even though I could) to explore this section of my hobby. So, I have decided to have lots of fun assessing, buying, and making kit to produce a system which suits my tastes. I use my ears as guides and if I like something it stays in the system(s) or gets swapped or sold on.
I would not have bought the cable if I did not like it. Changing back to a standard cable made my system sound like something was wrong compared to the sound with the upgraded mains cable.
brian2957
29-03-2017, 07:28
For me, not being able to answer this question is the biggest problem with this addicton (sorry I mean hobby). I'm not so sure about changes with power cables. I find changes hard to detect but this is maybe because I've made all my own? Now with respect to tonearm cables and IC's I don't seem to have the problem and can detect subtle and sometimes profund changes. I understand that a lot of effects and variables can be measured but we can't attribute these to certain things we hear. I don't have the equipment, time or patience (even though I could) to explore this section of my hobby. So, I have decided to have lots of fun assessing, buying, and making kit to produce a system which suits my tastes. I use my ears as guides and if I like something it stays in the system(s) or gets swapped or sold on.
I've been making my own mains cables for years too Andy and I have detected some improvements in SQ . However , I bought a mains cable from David at MCRU to feed my mains block and the improvements were far from subtle . After a few weeks I put the old one back into the system and , like Kevin , I thought the sound collapsed . The MCRU mains cable went back in .
Why don't you try one of the MCRU cables for yourself . There's no risk as it can be sent back for a refund .
Wakefield Turntables
29-03-2017, 08:53
I would not have bought the cable if I did not like it. Changing back to a standard cable made my system sound like something was wrong compared to the sound with the upgraded mains cable.
Kevin, I'm really happy for you. It's a fantastic experience when you get a result like the one you've experienced.
I've been making my own mains cables for years too Andy and I have detected some improvements in SQ . However , I bought a mains cable from David at MCRU to feed my mains block and the improvements were far from subtle . After a few weeks I put the old one back into the system and , like Kevin , I thought the sound collapsed . The MCRU mains cable went back in .
Why don't you try one of the MCRU cables for yourself . There's no risk as it can be sent back for a refund .
I have tried MCRU "the ultimate" leads in the past. In fact I tried two in the system at the same time. I did discern some changes but I felt the outlay for the cables was not worth the sonic improvements that I thought I detected.
Apparently, the copper in my cable comes from the same source as the "Ultimate" cable.
Indeed it does. It's UPC-OCC: Ultra Pure Copper by Ohno Continuous Casting Process. About the best you can get, and despite what the blinkered naysayers think, this stuff makes a difference.
Details here: https://www.hificollective.co.uk/sites/default/files/upocc_what_iss.pdf
Marco.
brian2957
29-03-2017, 09:31
Kevin, I'm really happy for you. It's a fantastic experience when you get a result like the one you've experienced.
I have tried MCRU "the ultimate" leads in the past. In fact I tried two in the system at the same time. I did discern some changes but I felt the outlay for the cables was not worth the sonic improvements that I thought I detected.
Ah.. Didn't know that Andy . Sounds like the DIY cables you make were better than mine :)
Wakefield Turntables
29-03-2017, 09:48
Ah.. Didn't know that Andy . Sounds like the DIY cables you make were better than mine :)
My recipe is very simple.
The bit which carries the leccy from the socket to the component.
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/wire/belden-19364-mains-cable.html
The bit which connects to the bit the carries the leccy
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/power_connectors/hd_power_ms328.html
The bit which ends up in the back of the component where the leccy needs to get to
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/power_connectors/ya_audio_copper_iec_plug.html
Nowt special as we say round these parts. ;)
A twin has arrived so that I can power the mono blocks...
Bigman80
08-04-2017, 10:37
A twin has arrived so that I can power the mono blocks...
A link to the site ?
Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk
The complete cable is not showing on the MCRU site.
brian2957
13-04-2017, 07:16
What number is it please Kevin ?
When you think of. Regenerator, you envision a machine that uses incoming electricity to manufacture an entirely new electrical signal at its outputs. I've seen old ones that actually had an electric motor that turned a generator, but it was not built for audio use. What most modern regenerators are is an amp, that is designed to amplify a signal at 50Hz (or 60Hz depending on where you are), so, if the power cord on a regular amp can affect its sound, I.e. It's output, then why could not a cord improve the output of this 50Hz amplifier?
As I was telling my Italian friend, back when I was a tech at a large company I had a load of battery backup power conditioners. To protect computers located in unprotected areas of the warehouse, etc. and I had a small 4 inch TV in my office I watched at lunch. And the noise from my computer made a lot of static in the picture. So I put a power filter between the computer and the wall, and it made a small difference, I placed a second one behind the TV, and it made a bigger difference. I added two more behind each of those, and the improvements kept coming. I had about 4 units behind each one before I could not detect any improvement at all. My boss came in and wanted to know what the hell have I been doing?
Now I realize that expensive units made for stereo are probably much more robust than these I was experimenting with, but it does show that more is always better. As long as you do not limit current supply.
My Italian friend being the editor of a magazine, was saying that he has spoken to a power cord manufacturer who claims the benefits from adding 3 feet of wire on the end of your supply works because of alternating current. Electrons do not travel from the power plant all the way to your stereo, they go in one direction for 1/50th of a second, then reverse and go the other way, so, these electrons moving back and forth in that last few feet are the ones that are actually entering your gear.
I realize this is still only theory, but I have to say it makes more sense than any other probable reason I've heard put forth. I am planning to do some math and prove exactly how far does an electron travel, and a few other numbers that may help support this theory. Or trash it. Funny that we were just talking about this.
Where is Tesla when you need him? He would have got to the bottom of the whole cable malarkey.
No need Alpha to do the maths, at the late age of 36 I did three 'A' levels in science to try to catch up a bit on my dire schooling.
The lecturers pointed out the misconception that the electrons in current travel at or near the speed of light; they do not, it is the electromagnetic pulse which does.
The electrons themselves travel at only a few mm/sec.
The real problem with all this is getting hold of new ones - I bet you are all using second hand ones.
Where is Tesla when you need him? He would have got to the bottom of the whole cable malarkey.
Ahh he's even had his Name appropriated and applied to Automobiles (Damned good ones though)
Thanks Dennis, I've had a few classes in atomic theory and "hole theory", in my schooling too, basically like a hose full of ping pong balls, if you add one in one end, one falls out the other. As you say, giving the effect that electricity moves at the speed of light, but only the effect moves that fast. And yes electrons move a few meters per second, or millimeters, depending on voltage, they do move faster as voltage increases. Many known factors here, I should be able to round up enough data from some Google searches to fill in my equation. Of course if I find that it moved 1 or 2 meters in the allotted time, that would seem like proof! But if it's moving 10 meters, then it would seem to discredit this theory. But actually, it only supports the theory or not. It doesn't prove anything. But, maybe pointing in the right direction.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
hole theory has a whole different meaning where I did my schooling:eyebrows:
Yesh, yours probably had hair around it..... :D
Marco.
Thanks Dennis, I've had a few classes in atomic theory and "hole theory", in my schooling too, basically like a hose full of ping pong balls, if you add one in one end, one falls out the other. As you say, giving the effect that electricity moves at the speed of light, but only the effect moves that fast. And yes electrons move a few meters per second, or millimeters, depending on voltage, they do move faster as voltage increases. Many known factors here, I should be able to round up enough data from some Google searches to fill in my equation. Of course if I find that it moved 1 or 2 meters in the allotted time, that would seem like proof! But if it's moving 10 meters, then it would seem to discredit this theory. But actually, it only supports the theory or not. It doesn't prove anything. But, maybe pointing in the right direction.
The 'sums' are relatively straightforward.
In a good conductor, such as copper, there are about 8.47 1028 conduction electrons per cubic metre. Each electron has a charge of 1.6 10-19 Coulombs.
So a copper wire of say 1mm in diameter and 1 metre long will contain 6.7 1022 conduction electrons, having a total charge of 10,658 Coulombs. Since a current of 1 Amp corresponds to a charge flow of 1 Coulomb per second, it will take ~10,000 seconds for the total conduction charge in a wire of 1 metre length and 1mm diameter to flow past a given point, that is 0.1mm/second.
Therefore in one half of a 50Hz cycle (i.e. 10ms) the electrons move 1um in one direction, then in the next half cycle move 1um in the opposite direction.
was with you all the way up to straightforward Barry :doh:
Small and likely a foolish question.. nonetheless:
Has the original poster tried refitting his Previous cables? Experimentally of course ;)
Small and likely a foolish question.. nonetheless:
Has the original poster tried refitting his Previous cables? Experimentally of course ;)
Yes, and I could clearly hear a difference - unfortunately.
I have now added a Furutech E-TP60e mains block and have another couple of cables coming.
It's only money......
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4241/35020422434_d83c96def4_d.jpg
The latest cables are here...
Neotech hybrid UPOCC cable and UPOCC plugs.
brian2957
11-07-2017, 17:45
Very nice Kevin . Neotech gear is excellent :)
It looks like a bit of cable with fancy plugs on, and will be stuffed down the back of the HiFi, so who cares what it looks like. :eek:
It's more important that it makes the HiFi sound better. ;)
They are neatly made, as usual.
They should go very nicely with my Furutech mains block. :eyebrows:
My instinctual reaction is that they look a bit RA foo to me.
I used to think that way too.
How come you went for those particular cables Kevin?
I followed advice that UPOCC was suited to mains, and the "hybrid" Neotech cable was good.
I'm not having a pop, am genuinely interested as I've not seen these particular ones before. Personally I've not experimented much with different mains cables*. About six months ago I did make a new 'Hydra' mains lead for myself (one cable in, six coming out) but I used pretty much the same recipe as Andrew (Reston) lists previously.
* I need eight mains cables to play a record so it quickly becomes an exceedingly expensive experiment.
Arkless Electronics
12-07-2017, 12:29
I'll be making mains powered equipment with a fixed mains cable so people can't change it!
I'm not having a pop, am genuinely interested as I've not seen these particular ones before. Personally I've not experimented much with different mains cables*. About six months ago I did make a new 'Hydra' mains lead for myself (one cable in, six coming out) but I used pretty much the same recipe as Andrew (Reston) lists previously.
* I need eight mains cables to play a record so it quickly becomes an exceedingly expensive experiment.
I was simply answering the question (which I did not take in a bad way). ;)
I'll be making mains powered equipment with a fixed mains cable so people can't change it!
Will it have a captive mains plug so people can't change that? Though of course they could always spend hundreds on fancy fuses. :D
Arkless Electronics
12-07-2017, 14:00
Will it have a captive mains plug so people can't change that? Though of course they could always spend hundreds on fancy fuses. :D
"A fool and his money are easily parted" :D
as is an intelligent one if you get mugged
It's a bit of an academic issue if one has to be 'begged' to build such equipment. It may as well feature its own internal generator as none will ever be built.
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Irrespective, captive mains leads are a right PITA!
RothwellAudio
12-07-2017, 14:39
...after all, how could 1m of fancy cable make a difference in the many Kilometres of cable leading up to my house?
I've heard this argument many times, but it seems illogical to me. If the audiofool (your expression) mains cable is filtering out noise, why would its short length compared to the distance back to the power station be relevant? Seems about as logical an argument as saying a roof slate only 2mm thick can't keep you dry because the rain has already travelled a mile before it reaches it. Eh? :scratch:
Of course, that's assuming that blocking RF is what the cable's benefit is based on. If the claim is that the audiofool cable has less resistance than ordinary cables then your argument about the miles of wiring preceding it -and therefore in series with it - does make sense.
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Irrespective, captive mains leads are a right PITA!
If you use 8 powered components to play a record they are. That must have got out of hand a while back.
But it is true that roof coverings don't make a difference, as long as they are fit for purpose.
I don't think I mentioned RF screening? If that was the only difference, then maybe I should try screening a standard cable. I also did not imply that they filtered out noise. I would love to know how they create the difference I perceive, but I am blissfully ignorant and have let my ears lead me astray.
I never thought that cables could make a difference, until I tried a few different ones.
If you use 8 powered components to play a record they are. That must have got out of hand a while back.
Nah, it's fine........
(There's only seven powered components - one needs two mains leads)
Arkless Electronics
12-07-2017, 15:28
It's a bit of an academic issue if one has to be 'begged' to build such equipment. It may as well feature its own internal generator as none will ever be built.
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Irrespective, captive mains leads are a right PITA!
A very silly reply Mark. People would indeed have to "beg" me to make Paradise clones, which is of course what you are referring to, as I have designs of my own. I did write a bit of a rant about the industry at this point and why I haven't really done much about it but I won't bother....deleted.
Making the cut-out for an IEC mains socket with combined fuse and on-off switch takes over an hour in labour when doing things by hand as I do... It's a right PITA!
RothwellAudio
12-07-2017, 15:39
Making the cut-out for an IEC mains socket with combined fuse and on-off switch takes over an hour in labour when doing things by hand as I do... It's a right PITA!
Here's a punch for IEC sockets without fuse and switch http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/punch-die-combinations/0543614/
They've gone up in price since I bought mine!
RothwellAudio
12-07-2017, 15:43
But it is true that roof coverings don't make a difference, as long as they are fit for purpose.
I don't think I mentioned RF screening? If that was the only difference, then maybe I should try screening a standard cable. I also did not imply that they filtered out noise. I would love to know how they create the difference I perceive, but I am blissfully ignorant and have let my ears lead me astray.
I never thought that cables could make a difference, until I tried a few different ones.
No, you didn't mention RF screening, and neither did I. I mentioned RF filtering, which is something else. Shielding a mains cable wouldn't filter out any RF that it was carrying, only prevent it from picking up more.
RothwellAudio
12-07-2017, 15:45
I forgot to mention that it has "internal filtering inside the plug and IEC".
This would be where I got the idea of RF filtering from.
No, you didn't mention RF screening, and neither did I. I mentioned RF filtering, which is something else. Shielding a mains cable wouldn't filter out any RF that it was carrying, only prevent it from picking up more.
True - to help remove any cable-borne RF, the use of extenal ferrite camps might be beneficial. They're inexpensive and can be removed if ineffective. Just some experimentation is needed as to where on the mains cable they are fitted. Usually nearest the mains plug is best, but not always.
This would be where I got the idea of RF filtering from.
A good point, well presented.
I expect that the "filters" are just ferrite rings.
This thread has just reminded me that the BBC used to use thick mic. cable for feeding mains into amplifiers, I remember baulking at it, but great care was taken with insulation of the screen from the rest.
This thread has just reminded me that the BBC used to use thick mic. cable for feeding mains into amplifiers, I remember baulking at it, but great care was taken with insulation of the screen from the rest.
In the past I have used 'heavy duty' two-core screened cable for mains cables, but these days I prefer not to rely on the screening alone for the earth continuity conductor, and so now use three-core screened cable with the screening connected to the third core at the mains plug.
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