View Full Version : Terror attack in London
Spectral Morn
22-03-2017, 16:17
An incident has occurred in London at the Westminster Houses of Parliament.
Multiple people seriously injured, one dead and the terrorist shot.
Ongoing incident. As police try to suss out if this is it or there is more to come. Parliament in lock down.
Started at three this afternoon :(
RobbieGong
22-03-2017, 16:27
It was only a matter of time. Hope those injured are not too bad and pull through ok. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-39355505
Spectral Morn
22-03-2017, 16:30
It was only a matter of time. Hope those injured are not too bad and pull through ok. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-39355505
The news is saying those hit by the car are all very badly hurt, one victim has died.
Sounds like a lone nutter at moment. Most of injured seem to have been hit by his car.
walpurgis
22-03-2017, 16:33
Another murderous shitbag fanatic no doubt!
They've shut 'The London Eye' leaving loads of people stranded up in the air. What the hell was the point of doing that? Some dozy plod idea I guess.
Spectral Morn
22-03-2017, 16:34
Another murderous shitbag fanatic no doubt!
They've shut 'The London Eye' leaving loads of people stranded up in the air. What the hell was the point of doing that? Some dozy plod idea I guess.
Police treating this as on going, not over.
Spectral Morn
22-03-2017, 16:42
Sounds like a lone nutter at moment. Most of injured seem to have been hit by his car.
Sounds like this individual drove the car along the pavement hitting people then across the bridge to hit more people as it ploughed into the fence at Parliament.
A lady has been pulled out of the Thames who it looks like was either thrown off the bridge by the car or jumped to avoid being hit. This gets worse as the incident is being reported and witnesses say what happened.
walpurgis
22-03-2017, 16:45
These kind of people are not acting alone. They come from within a 'community' (for want of a better word) where many around them will know full well that something is being planned, but you never hear of any suspects being turned in.
farflungstar
22-03-2017, 16:49
More sleepers awakened to justify greater restrictions on airlines.
RobbieGong
22-03-2017, 17:17
Sounds like this individual drove the car along the pavement hitting people then across the bridge to hit more people as it ploughed into the fence at Parliament.
A lady has been pulled out of the Thames who it looks like was either thrown off the bridge by the car or jumped to avoid being hit. This gets worse as the incident is being reported and witnesses say what happened.
Utter madness, no matter what your reasons are, there are zero excuses :steam: :(
Spectral Morn
22-03-2017, 17:41
Another death, the policeman who was stabbed has died :(
The Religion of Peace at work again
And still no one sees anything wrong in inviting thousands of them here.
walpurgis
22-03-2017, 19:11
I see the BT online TV guide is down. They are based 600 yards from The Palace of Westminster. I guess they evacuated.
A newspaper stated that some Muslim doctor is saying we are profiling him because he has been checked three times while getting on an airplane. The following is a letter from a pilot. This well - spoken man, who is a pilot with American Airlines, says what is in his heart, beautifully.
YOU WORRY ME!
By Captain John Maniscalco, American Airlines Pilot
I've been trying to say this since 911, but you worry me. I wish you didn't. I wish when I walked down the streets of this country that I love, that your color and culture still blended with the beautiful human landscape we enjoy in this country. But you don't blend in anymore. I notice you, and it worries me.
I notice you because I can't help it anymore. People from your homelands, professing to be Muslims, have been attacking and killing my fellow citizens and our friends for more than 20 years now.
I don't fully understand their grievances and hate, but I know that nothing can justify the inhumanity of their attacks.
On September 11, ARAB-MUSLIMS hijacked four jetliners in my country. They cut the throats of women in front of children and brutally stabbed to death others, hacking their necks, over and over, with box cutters. They took control of those planes and crashed them into buildings, killing thousands of proud fathers, loving sons, wise grandparents, elegant daughters, best friends, favorite coaches, fearless public servants, and children's mothers.
The Palestinians celebrated, the Iraqis were overjoyed as was most of the Arab world. So, I notice you now. I don't want to be worried.
I don't want to be consumed by the same rage, hate and prejudice that has destroyed the soul of these terrorists. But I need your help. As a rational American, trying to protect my country and family in an irrational and unsafe world, I must know how to tell the difference between you, and the Arab/Muslim terrorist.
How do I differentiate between the true Arab/Muslim Americans and the Arab/Muslim terrorists in our communities who are attending our schools, enjoying our parks, and living in OUR communities under the protection of OUR constitution, while they plot the next attack that will slaughter MORE of the same good neighbors and children?
The events of September 11 changed the answer.. It is not MY responsibility to determine which of you embraces our great country, with ALL of its religions, with ALL of its different citizens, with all of its faults. It is time for every Arab/Muslim in this country to determine it for me.
I want to know, I DEMAND to know and I have a right to know, whether or not you love America ..... Do you pledge allegiance to its flag? Do you proudly display it in front of your house, or on your car? Do you pray in your many daily prayers that Allah will bless this nation; that He will protect it and let it prosper? Or do you pray that Allah will destroy it in one of your Jihads? Are you thankful for the freedom that this nation affords? A freedom that was paid for by the blood of hundreds of thousands of patriots, who have through our history, given their lives for this country? Are you willing to preserve this freedom by also paying the ultimate sacrifice? Do you love America?? If this is your commitment, then I need YOU to start letting ME know about it.
Your Muslim leaders in this nation should be flooding the media at this time with hard facts on your faith, and what hard actions YOU are taking as a community and as a religion to protect the United States of America. Please, no more benign overtures of regret for the death of the innocent, because I worry about who you regard as innocent. No more benign overtures of condemnation for the unprovoked attacks, because I worry about what is unprovoked to you. I am not interested in any more sympathy; I am interested only in action. What will you do for America - our great country - at this time of continuing crisis, at this time of war?
I want to see Arab-Muslims waving the AMERICAN flag in the streets. I want to hear you chanting 'Allah Bless America'. I want to see young Arab/Muslim men enlisting in the military. I want to see a commitment of money, time and emotion to the victims of this butchering and to our returning wounded and to this nation as a whole.
The FBI has had a long list of people they've wanted to interact with regarding the threats that they believe to be ongoing. Many of these people live and socialize right now in Muslim communities. You know them. You know where they are. Give the FBI a heads up as to where they may be. Better yet, hand them over to us, NOW! But I have seen little even approaching this sort of action. Instead I have seen an already closed and secretive community close even tighter. You have disappeared from the streets. You have posted armed security guards at your facilities. You have threatened lawsuits. You have screamed for protection from reprisals.
The very few Arab/Muslim representatives, like CARE, that HAVE appeared in the media were defensive and equivocating. They seemed more concerned with making sure that the United States apologize and take responsibility for actions defending our own people. They seemed more concerned with protecting their fellow Muslims from violence directed towards them in the United States and abroad than they did with supporting our country and denouncing 'leaders' like the late Khadafi, the late Hussein, Farrakhan, and the late Arafat.
If the true teachings of Islam proclaim tolerance and peace and love for all people, then I want chapter and verse from the Koran and statements from popular Muslim leaders to back it up. What good is it if the teachings in the Koran are good, pure, and true, when your 'leaders' ARE teaching fanatical interpretations, terrorism, and intolerance? It matters little how good Islam SHOULD BE if huge numbers of the world's Muslims interpret the teachings of Mohammed incorrectly and adhere to a degenerative form of the religion. A form that has been demonstrated to us over and over again. A form whose structure is built upon a foundation of violence, death, and suicide. A form whose members are recruited from the prisons around the world.
A form whose members (some as young as five years old) are seen day after day, week in and week out, year after year, marching in the streets around the world, burning effigies of our presidents, burning the American flag, shooting weapons into the air. A form whose members convert from a peaceful religion, only to take up arms against the great United States of America, the country of their birth. A form whose rules are so twisted, that their traveling members refuse to show their faces at airport security checkpoints, in the name of Islam.
We will NEVER allow the attacks of September 11, or any others for that matter, to take away that which is so precious to us -- our rights under the greatest constitution in the world. I want to know where every Arab Muslim in this country stands and I think it is my right and the right of every true citizen of this country to DEMAND it. A right paid for by the blood of thousands of my brothers and sisters who died protecting the very constitution that is protecting you and your family.
I am pleading with you to let me know. I want you here as my brother, my neighbor, my friend, as a fellow American...... But there can be no grey areas or ambivalence regarding your allegiance, and it is up to YOU, to show ME, where YOU stand. Until then, "YOU WORRY ME!"
CANADIAN COMMENTS:
I totally agree with this sentiment. I hope you will forget all about the 'political correctness' mandate we've had rammed down our throats by so many on the left, and see if this doesn't ring true in your heart and mind. For Canada, with all the multiculturalism we've been told is so important....why should we not, as Canadians, expect that the millions of new people immigrating to our country will show their love for our country, their allegiance to our country, their willingness to obey the laws of our country, and acceptance that we are a Christian country? Just because they are able to enjoy exercising their own religion, they should NOT expect us to be ashamed of ours. They knew Canada was a Christian country when they came here. Why are we erasing Christianity because immigrants who are unwilling to adopt our way of life expect us to? There is just too much insanity in the world, and we have to start taking a stand.
I hope you will forward this, so that others will feel they are not alone if they are starting to feel the same.
BRITISH COMMENTS: At last a clear non-racist example of the concerns that the vast majority of our Nations population probably share. The pilot's letter encapsulates all that is fair and just about national pride and protection of one's national culture. I fear it may be too late here in UK, BUT we too want our country back in the form that attracted all these different cultures to come here in the first place!! In all our conversations with a wide range of friends and acquaintances we have not met one that disagrees with our own views.
If only we all had the courage of our convictions to pass this on, it is a statement that should be accepted as the heart-felt feelings of someone with honest commendable national pride.
Not all Muslims are terrorists but almost all terrorists to date have been Muslims. Stand up and be counted!
Australian Comment: Best email I have had in years it needs to be in every paper every day until we get some answers. We need all be very concerned, note the pattern in Australia is the same for the other countries above. Where are the believers of Islam in our beloved country standing up and being counted in all these issues?
I have not seen one!
THIS IS TOO GOOD TO JUST READ AND DELETE! LET'S SATURATE NEW ZEALAND, AUSTRALIA, UK, EUROPE, USA, CANADA AND THE REST OF THE FREE WORLD WITH THIS ONE! SEND IT!
Spectral Morn
22-03-2017, 19:38
Channel 4 news now back tracking re who they named as the attacker :doh: Idiots.
A newspaper stated that some Muslim doctor is saying we are profiling him because he has been checked three times while getting on an airplane. The following is a letter from a pilot. This well - spoken man, who is a pilot with American Airlines, says what is in his heart, beautifully.
very true
Dubster68
22-03-2017, 21:27
Religion is the route cause in all these issues and will only get worse. The Christian religion was no better with its crusades with slaughter across the Middle East. I say ban religion and all live as one. Though this will never happen the madness will continue.
I also think the Counter Terror Department need to get a little bit more real and start knocking on doors.
Very sad
Infinitely Baffled
23-03-2017, 09:26
Though it's easy to see why the pilot (whose letter is reproduced above) is worried, it is depressing that the things he identifies, the things he wants to see, to reassure him are more flags (American), more chanting, more slogans ("I love this country") and more rampant nationalism. Flags, sects, nationalism, religions - in short the categories, subdivisions and labels that mankind seems to love to put in place between "us" and "not us" - are what got us here in the first place. They are the last thing we need to get us out of it.
This pilot has a way with flowery language, and at first glance that lends his piece an ersatz high-mindedness. But on further examination I think the message is basically just more of the same old slightly unpleasant - and potentially dangerous - stuff.
IB
Absolutely shocking, and my heart goes out to all the families who've lost their loved ones or been badly injured in this tragedy. However, do we know for certain it was a terror attack or just some loon, with a grievance against 'the system', who ran amok?
As far as I understand it, the motivation of the attacker is still in doubt, so we should consider that before labelling it as terrorism, and with it pandering to how the media are sensationalising the situation, and breeding hatred against Islam, as a result of some (as of yet) unknown agenda. We should always look beyond the obvious and consider the bigger picture.
I've been reading some of the comments over on pfm, and Jonathan Ribee makes an interesting point (click on link to read): http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showpost.php?p=3070817&postcount=65
If it wasn't a terrorist attack, and instead the above, then I feel Jon's comments below are deeply relevant, especially considering recent discussions here regarding the 'have' and 'have nots' of this world:
Also making it complex is the massive gulf between the haves and have nots in education and wealth both inside our society and between our society and other societies - which help create the conditions for these people to be radicalised.
That is *so* spot on!
The fact is, religion aside (and I agree that, when twisted and abused, it is a major contributory factor in driving terrorism), the huge social divide and grossly unjust division of wealth and opportunities in the world we live in today, is feeding political radicalism and breeding many angry people, who feel victims of the system, alienated and disenfranchised from society, and thus seek some form 'recompense', which in their distressed mental state, they are able to justify.
Now of course such sickening actions, murdering and injuring innocent people, as we saw yesterday, can never be 'justified' in any way. It's an atrocity civilised society must always fight against and try its best to prevent.
It is, however, symptomatic of what happens when huge gulfs are created in society by grossly unjust divisions of wealth, especially by successive governments (which is perhaps why in this instance Westminster was targeted), seeking at all cost to look after the 'haves', to the gross detriment of the 'have nots' - and the longer that bias prevails, things will only get worse, and unfortunately we may see more shocking events, such as we witnessed yesterday.
Therefore, if it wasn't an out-and-out terrorist attack, I think the government needs to see yesterday's tragic events as a severe wake up call, and that the alienated and downtrodden in society simply will no longer 'sit back and take it' - and that those amongst them who are sick and mentally broken will channel their anger and retaliate in the most brutal and devastating way possible.
Fundamental changes in how the system works are most certainly needed if what happened yesterday is not to occur again.
Marco.
Haselsh1
23-03-2017, 09:45
My heart and my soul goes out to those who now have to live the remainder of their lives with serious disabilities and PTSD.
Firebottle
23-03-2017, 10:16
My heart and my soul goes out to those who now have to live the remainder of their lives with serious disabilities and PTSD.
That is so tragic in the true sense of the word.
Indeed mine too. Being disabled is a real drag. Many will be afraid to go out etc and i know that is extremely dibilitating too as my son has this. I have to do most things for him and i can hardly walk.
And all for what good reason?
Spectral Morn
23-03-2017, 10:36
Absolutely shocking, and my heart goes out to all the families who've lost their loved ones or been badly injured in this tragedy. However, do we know for certain it was a terror attack or just some loon, with a grievance against 'the system', who ran amok?
As far as I understand it, the motivation of the attacker is still in doubt, so we should consider that before labelling it as terrorism, and with it pandering to how the media are sensationalising the situation, and breeding hatred against Islam, as a result of some (as of yet) unknown agenda.
I've been reading some of the comments over on pfm, and Jonathan Ribee makes an interesting point (click on link to read): http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showpost.php?p=3070817&postcount=65
If it wasn't a terrorist attack, and instead the above, then I feel Jon's comments below are deeply relevant, especially considering recent discussions here regarding the 'have' and 'have nots' of this world:
That is *so* spot on!
The fact is, religion aside (and I agree that, when twisted and abused, it is a major contributory factor in driving terrorism), the huge social divide and grossly unjust division of wealth and opportunities in the world we live in today, is feeding political radicalism and breeding many angry people, who feel victims of the system, alienated and disenfranchised from society, and thus seek some form 'recompense', which in their distressed mental state, they are able to justify.
Now of course such sickening actions, murdering and injuring innocent people, as we saw yesterday, can never be 'justified' in any way. It's an atrocity civilised society must always fight against and try its best to prevent.
It is, however, symptomatic of what happens when huge gulfs are created in society by grossly unjust divisions of wealth, especially by successive governments (which is perhaps why in this instance Westminster was targeted), seeking at all cost to look after the 'haves', to the gross detriment of the 'have nots' - and the longer that bias prevails, things will only get worse, and unfortunately we may see more shocking events, such as we witnessed yesterday.
Therefore, if it wasn't an out-and-out terrorist attack, I think the government needs to see yesterday's tragic events as a severe wake up call, and that the alienated and downtrodden in society simply will no longer 'sit back and take it' - and that those amongst them who are sick and mentally broken will channel their anger and retaliate in the most brutal and devastating way possible.
Fundamental changes in how the system works are most certainly needed if what happened yesterday is not to occur again.
Marco.
At this stage the police are still calling it a terrorist act. It has all the hallmarks of being so. However until all the info is released regarding the identity of the attacker and any accomplices - if there are any - then even though it seems to be walking like a duck, quacking like a duck I guess it would be foolish to say it is a duck until the police say its a duck.
Thing is it takes a very focused, fanatical and deluded mindset to do what was done and I don't believe that a random copy cat who was not of that mindset would do this, because few types want to die as a result of their action and these ducks don't mind, its what they want. This type of attack reflects changes in tactics as seen in Nice, Berlin, Ohio, Jerusalem, and Quebec, where folks of this mindset are using vehicles as weapons, rather than more high tech and thus traceable weapons. You can't police silent, loaner or small cells that use everyday items to kill. Complicated plots using sophisticated tactics and weapons risk being found out, whereas climbing into a car and running people down or using a knife can't be caught easily beforehand.
I guess it will either be a member of Isis or someone influence and inspired by them.
Shocking and deeply sad day but also deeply moving. Policeman Keith Palmer who tackled the attacker unarmed and paid the ultimate sacrifice. Those who stopped to help, particularly MP Tobias Ellwood and the emergency services, ambulance crew, Drs, nurses and the police are shining examples of the best of humanity not the evil perpetrated by these others who have nothing to offer, but pure evil.
RobbieGong
23-03-2017, 10:44
Absolutely shocking, and my heart goes out to all the families who've lost their loved ones or been badly injured in this tragedy. However, do we know for certain it was a terror attack or just some loon, with a grievance against 'the system', who ran amok?
As far as I understand it, the motivation of the attacker is still in doubt, so we should consider that before labelling it as terrorism, and with it pandering to how the media are sensationalising the situation, and breeding hatred against Islam, as a result of some (as of yet) unknown agenda.
I've been reading some of the comments over on pfm, and Jonathan Ribee makes an interesting point (click on link to read): http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showpost.php?p=3070817&postcount=65
If it wasn't a terrorist attack, and instead the above, then I feel Jon's comments below are deeply relevant, especially considering recent discussions here regarding the 'have' and 'have nots' of this world:
That is *so* spot on!
The fact is, religion aside (and I agree that, when twisted and abused, it is a major contributory factor in driving terrorism), the huge social divide and grossly unjust division of wealth and opportunities in the world we live in today, is feeding political radicalism and breeding many angry people, who feel victims of the system, alienated and disenfranchised from society, and thus seek some form 'recompense', which in their distressed mental state, they are able to justify.
Now of course such sickening actions, murdering and injuring innocent people, as we saw yesterday, can never be 'justified' in any way. It's an atrocity civilised society must always fight against and try its best to prevent.
It is, however, symptomatic of what happens when huge gulfs are created in society by grossly unjust divisions of wealth, especially by successive governments (which is perhaps why in this instance Westminster was targeted), seeking at all cost to look after the 'haves', to the gross detriment of the 'have nots' - and the longer that bias prevails, things will only get worse, and unfortunately we may see more shocking events, such as we witnessed yesterday.
Therefore, if it wasn't an out-and-out terrorist attack, I think the government needs to see yesterday's tragic events as a severe wake up call, and that the alienated and downtrodden in society simply will no longer 'sit back and take it' - and that those amongst them who are sick and mentally broken will channel their anger and retaliate in the most brutal and devastating way possible.
Fundamental changes in how the system works are most certainly needed if what happened yesterday is not to occur again.
Marco.
Agree Marco, a sober and conscious express.
Truth is our politicians and so called world leaders have created / caused the current global state that we have today.
They have neglected the people, the youths and so on, leaving many vulnerable and more open to other 'alternatives', other 'ways' and things.
The anger and disillusionment many feel everywhere in these times only adds to it.
Unfortunately they've also caused a great huge divide amongst people that wasnt there to the extent before and we need to be very careful of that.
We have so called educated, intellects in high places clearly feeding their egos and very dodgy agendas but not really taking care of people and the day to day fundamentals that matter to them, that which creates a thriving balanced society, hope, a future.
Politicians being told to make hard and extreme cuts all over the place 'to save money' yeah right !
Either way, I will not carry hate in my heart or purpose ill against my fellow brothers or sisters, no - I wont ever let the system do that to me.
It's like focusing on the disease, blaming the disease rather than recognising it's cause is the problem.
People think it's a battle of flesh and blood but it's root is way deeper than that https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+6%3A12&version=KJV
Spectral Morn
23-03-2017, 10:48
Agree Marco, a sober and conscious express.
Truth is our politicians and so called world leaders have created / caused the current global state that we have today.
They have neglected the people, the youths and so on, leaving many vulnerable and more open to other 'alternatives', other 'ways' and things.
The anger and disillusionment many feel everywhere in these times only adds to it.
Unfortunately they've also caused a great huge divide amongst people that wasnt there to the extent before and we need to be very careful of that.
We have so called educated, intellects in high places clearly feeding their egos and very dodgy agendas but not really taking care of people and the day to day fundamentals that matter to them, that which creates a thriving balanced society, hope, a future.
Politicians being told to make hard and extreme cuts all over the place 'to save money' yeah right !
Either way, I will not carry hate in my heart or purpose ill against my fellow brothers or sisters, no - I wont ever let the system do that to me.
It's like focusing on the disease, blaming the disease rather than recognising it's cause is the problem.
People think it's a battle of flesh and blood but it's root is way deeper than that https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+6%3A12&version=KJV
Agreed
He was British born apparently
He was British born apparently
That does away with much of the "send them all back to where they came from" sillyness that I've been reading (not here). But doesn't stop the "we need to ban Islam in the UK, take our country back" chatter. No easy solution, of course. We need to target the radicalisers, come down harder on anyone even suspected of preaching hate and violence, monitor people leaving the country to visit such preachers and stop them coming back. Monitor traffic to those websites and have an internet ban for those frequenting radicalising sites (though I'm mostly against increased web surveillance in general). Flag waving jingoistic reactions about targeting whole religious groups for blame/removal of basic rights is just nonsense, in my opinion.
At this stage the police are still calling it a terrorist act. It has all the hallmarks of being so. However until all the info is released regarding the identity of the attacker and any accomplices - if there are any - then even though it seems to be walking like a duck, quacking like a duck I guess it would be foolish to say it is a duck until the police say its a duck.
Indeed, simply because the police and/or media say something is true, doesn't necessarily make it so. We must remember that they are part of our (largely corrupt) system, and with it, have its best interests at heart, and so things will be twisted to suit an agenda.
Therefore, whilst I'm still confident that this was a genuine terror attack, we must guard against being brainwashed by what the system (controlled by the government and media) wants us to believe! ;)
The BBC's broadcasts are often the worst examples of perpetrating propaganda, simply because they are owned and run by members of the elite/establishment, whose greed for wealth and power is at the heart of world conflict.
Marco.
The problem with the view that this is basically about global inequalities and injustices is that you don't get "international terrorism" from the poorest in the world. When was the last time you had a Christian suicide bomber from a poverty stricken shanty town in Mumbai or Cape Town? The media shies away from calling this what it is, Islamic terrorism, and I can sort of see why, but it is ultimately unhelpful. Important to remember who funds this terrorism, but that's a very deep rabbit hole to venture down!
When was the last time you had a Christian suicide bomber from a poverty stricken shanty town in Mumbai or Cape Town?
About 20 years ago, except they came from much closer to home, just across the Irish Sea. If the current madness of our political isolation continues, they'll be back very soon.
About 20 years ago, except they came from much closer to home, just across the Irish Sea. If the current madness of our political isolation continues, they'll be back very soon.
They were not suicide bombers though. In fact when a hard line was finally taken and the army just started shooting the wankers on sight they lost all their taste for it.
Spectral Morn
23-03-2017, 12:42
About 20 years ago, except they came from much closer to home, just across the Irish Sea. If the current madness of our political isolation continues, they'll be back very soon.
There have never been deliberate Irish suicide bombers, nor was the motivation religious, it was based on territory, socialism and seeking to remove an occupying force. The religious aspect of the Irish problem is a red herring, and mentioning it with respect shows a lack of knowledge about the subject.
Anyway this isn't about Ireland, but about what happened in London yesterday.
Arkless Electronics
23-03-2017, 13:56
A newspaper stated that some Muslim doctor is saying we are profiling him because he has been checked three times while getting on an airplane. The following is a letter from a pilot. This well - spoken man, who is a pilot with American Airlines, says what is in his heart, beautifully.
YOU WORRY ME!
By Captain John Maniscalco, American Airlines Pilot
I've been trying to say this since 911, but you worry me. I wish you didn't. I wish when I walked down the streets of this country that I love, that your color and culture still blended with the beautiful human landscape we enjoy in this country. But you don't blend in anymore. I notice you, and it worries me.
I notice you because I can't help it anymore. People from your homelands, professing to be Muslims, have been attacking and killing my fellow citizens and our friends for more than 20 years now.
I don't fully understand their grievances and hate, but I know that nothing can justify the inhumanity of their attacks.
On September 11, ARAB-MUSLIMS hijacked four jetliners in my country. They cut the throats of women in front of children and brutally stabbed to death others, hacking their necks, over and over, with box cutters. They took control of those planes and crashed them into buildings, killing thousands of proud fathers, loving sons, wise grandparents, elegant daughters, best friends, favorite coaches, fearless public servants, and children's mothers.
The Palestinians celebrated, the Iraqis were overjoyed as was most of the Arab world. So, I notice you now. I don't want to be worried.
I don't want to be consumed by the same rage, hate and prejudice that has destroyed the soul of these terrorists. But I need your help. As a rational American, trying to protect my country and family in an irrational and unsafe world, I must know how to tell the difference between you, and the Arab/Muslim terrorist.
How do I differentiate between the true Arab/Muslim Americans and the Arab/Muslim terrorists in our communities who are attending our schools, enjoying our parks, and living in OUR communities under the protection of OUR constitution, while they plot the next attack that will slaughter MORE of the same good neighbors and children?
The events of September 11 changed the answer.. It is not MY responsibility to determine which of you embraces our great country, with ALL of its religions, with ALL of its different citizens, with all of its faults. It is time for every Arab/Muslim in this country to determine it for me.
I want to know, I DEMAND to know and I have a right to know, whether or not you love America ..... Do you pledge allegiance to its flag? Do you proudly display it in front of your house, or on your car? Do you pray in your many daily prayers that Allah will bless this nation; that He will protect it and let it prosper? Or do you pray that Allah will destroy it in one of your Jihads? Are you thankful for the freedom that this nation affords? A freedom that was paid for by the blood of hundreds of thousands of patriots, who have through our history, given their lives for this country? Are you willing to preserve this freedom by also paying the ultimate sacrifice? Do you love America?? If this is your commitment, then I need YOU to start letting ME know about it.
Your Muslim leaders in this nation should be flooding the media at this time with hard facts on your faith, and what hard actions YOU are taking as a community and as a religion to protect the United States of America. Please, no more benign overtures of regret for the death of the innocent, because I worry about who you regard as innocent. No more benign overtures of condemnation for the unprovoked attacks, because I worry about what is unprovoked to you. I am not interested in any more sympathy; I am interested only in action. What will you do for America - our great country - at this time of continuing crisis, at this time of war?
I want to see Arab-Muslims waving the AMERICAN flag in the streets. I want to hear you chanting 'Allah Bless America'. I want to see young Arab/Muslim men enlisting in the military. I want to see a commitment of money, time and emotion to the victims of this butchering and to our returning wounded and to this nation as a whole.
The FBI has had a long list of people they've wanted to interact with regarding the threats that they believe to be ongoing. Many of these people live and socialize right now in Muslim communities. You know them. You know where they are. Give the FBI a heads up as to where they may be. Better yet, hand them over to us, NOW! But I have seen little even approaching this sort of action. Instead I have seen an already closed and secretive community close even tighter. You have disappeared from the streets. You have posted armed security guards at your facilities. You have threatened lawsuits. You have screamed for protection from reprisals.
The very few Arab/Muslim representatives, like CARE, that HAVE appeared in the media were defensive and equivocating. They seemed more concerned with making sure that the United States apologize and take responsibility for actions defending our own people. They seemed more concerned with protecting their fellow Muslims from violence directed towards them in the United States and abroad than they did with supporting our country and denouncing 'leaders' like the late Khadafi, the late Hussein, Farrakhan, and the late Arafat.
If the true teachings of Islam proclaim tolerance and peace and love for all people, then I want chapter and verse from the Koran and statements from popular Muslim leaders to back it up. What good is it if the teachings in the Koran are good, pure, and true, when your 'leaders' ARE teaching fanatical interpretations, terrorism, and intolerance? It matters little how good Islam SHOULD BE if huge numbers of the world's Muslims interpret the teachings of Mohammed incorrectly and adhere to a degenerative form of the religion. A form that has been demonstrated to us over and over again. A form whose structure is built upon a foundation of violence, death, and suicide. A form whose members are recruited from the prisons around the world.
A form whose members (some as young as five years old) are seen day after day, week in and week out, year after year, marching in the streets around the world, burning effigies of our presidents, burning the American flag, shooting weapons into the air. A form whose members convert from a peaceful religion, only to take up arms against the great United States of America, the country of their birth. A form whose rules are so twisted, that their traveling members refuse to show their faces at airport security checkpoints, in the name of Islam.
We will NEVER allow the attacks of September 11, or any others for that matter, to take away that which is so precious to us -- our rights under the greatest constitution in the world. I want to know where every Arab Muslim in this country stands and I think it is my right and the right of every true citizen of this country to DEMAND it. A right paid for by the blood of thousands of my brothers and sisters who died protecting the very constitution that is protecting you and your family.
I am pleading with you to let me know. I want you here as my brother, my neighbor, my friend, as a fellow American...... But there can be no grey areas or ambivalence regarding your allegiance, and it is up to YOU, to show ME, where YOU stand. Until then, "YOU WORRY ME!"
CANADIAN COMMENTS:
I totally agree with this sentiment. I hope you will forget all about the 'political correctness' mandate we've had rammed down our throats by so many on the left, and see if this doesn't ring true in your heart and mind. For Canada, with all the multiculturalism we've been told is so important....why should we not, as Canadians, expect that the millions of new people immigrating to our country will show their love for our country, their allegiance to our country, their willingness to obey the laws of our country, and acceptance that we are a Christian country? Just because they are able to enjoy exercising their own religion, they should NOT expect us to be ashamed of ours. They knew Canada was a Christian country when they came here. Why are we erasing Christianity because immigrants who are unwilling to adopt our way of life expect us to? There is just too much insanity in the world, and we have to start taking a stand.
I hope you will forward this, so that others will feel they are not alone if they are starting to feel the same.
BRITISH COMMENTS: At last a clear non-racist example of the concerns that the vast majority of our Nations population probably share. The pilot's letter encapsulates all that is fair and just about national pride and protection of one's national culture. I fear it may be too late here in UK, BUT we too want our country back in the form that attracted all these different cultures to come here in the first place!! In all our conversations with a wide range of friends and acquaintances we have not met one that disagrees with our own views.
If only we all had the courage of our convictions to pass this on, it is a statement that should be accepted as the heart-felt feelings of someone with honest commendable national pride.
Not all Muslims are terrorists but almost all terrorists to date have been Muslims. Stand up and be counted!
Australian Comment: Best email I have had in years it needs to be in every paper every day until we get some answers. We need all be very concerned, note the pattern in Australia is the same for the other countries above. Where are the believers of Islam in our beloved country standing up and being counted in all these issues?
I have not seen one!
THIS IS TOO GOOD TO JUST READ AND DELETE! LET'S SATURATE NEW ZEALAND, AUSTRALIA, UK, EUROPE, USA, CANADA AND THE REST OF THE FREE WORLD WITH THIS ONE! SEND IT!
I utterly condemn the above. It should be deleted. This is basically incitement of racial/religious hatred and even adds the squalor of patriotism and nationalism to the incendiary mix. It is exactly the mantra of sub human scum like Trump and Farage and the rest of the far right. It is precisely this sort of xenophobia that leads to "brave" white blokes spitting on a lone Muslim women who's just sitting on a bus minding her own business etc.
All religion is evil, even Buddhists have been involved in massacres in recent years. Ban the lot I say, but if not then lets not single out members of one religion for hatred. For every one extremist there are millions of law abiding Muslims just going about their lives.
I don't see calls to ban/deport/vilify Catholics after a tiny proportion of them committed murders in the name of the IRA... or are they OK 'cos they're white, speak English and are culturally a part of something some would class as "us" rather than "them"?
People of evil intent have used the "god told me to do it" excuse for centuries and with many different brands of god and no doubt so long as people are of such medieval mind set as to believe in sky wizards of various forms it will continue unfortunately.
"An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind" Gandhi.
farflungstar
23-03-2017, 14:21
I utterly condemn the above. It should be deleted. This is basically incitement of racial/religious hatred and even adds the squalor of patriotism and nationalism to the incendiary mix. It is exactly the mantra of sub human scum like Trump and Farage and the rest of the far right. It is precisely this sort of xenophobia that leads to "brave" white blokes spitting on a lone Muslim women who's just sitting on a bus minding her own business etc.
All religion is evil, even Buddhists have been involved in massacres in recent years. Ban the lot I say, but if not then lets not single out members of one religion for hatred. For every one extremist there are millions of law abiding Muslims just going about their lives.
I don't see calls to ban/deport/vilify Catholics after a tiny proportion of them committed murders in the name of the IRA... or are they OK 'cos they're white, speak English and are culturally a part of something some would class as "us" rather than "them"?
People of evil intent have used the "god told me to do it" excuse for centuries and with many different brands of god and no doubt so long as people are of such medieval mind set as to believe in sky wizards of various forms it will continue unfortunately.
"An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind" Gandhi.
+1
All religion is evil.
/\ This +1
farflungstar
23-03-2017, 14:47
I condemn without question any form of violence against man or animal. BUT we must remember that in the eyes of these people WE are the terrorists - we bomb them, murder their mothers and sons - and that a tiny proportion of them 'fight back' is pretty normal in that context. (We're doing it in Yemen right now).
What we are seeing is a direct result of our own foreign policy/lies and immorality.
Religion (ridiculous) isn't the reason.... Power based in the West and it's political agenda is the reason.
Here's a little truth as an example..
Libya. I have relatives there. Gaddafi was the darling of the US for a long time. In Libya electricity was free. Every person had a home. Gaddafi refused to house his own father until every other citizen had a home. Water was free. Petrol was 10 cents a gallon. Women could go to university. It was packed with British and Americans (even when in the press sanctions were put on the country and all business denied). It was sitting on trillions of dollars worth of oil.
And then CIA operatives (filmed) suddenly began training 'rebels' in the farce that was the Arab spring. Gaddafi had fallen from favour and had to go. And so he did.
And within 2 fucking days there was a World Bank on the main Street in Tripoli. And suddenly everyone had to pay for everything.
How are my relatives living now...
In their cellars. Living in fear of the Islamist fanatics that now rule because of the vacuum of power. They are in a living hell that the press don't speak about.
Regime change at the whim of American/British/Bankers/politicians. With zero regard for the lives of others because they're brown and far away. History repeating... And our arms industries laughing all the way to the bank.
Terrorism is wrong. Period. But what we face is nothing compared to the daily toll of death, rape and fear in those countries we have meddled in. Nothing.
Yes they are evil - but they are not alone - it's time we in the West looked in the mirror....
Firebottle
23-03-2017, 15:41
I'm sad to say that what you say is true. It's not so much religion it's power. It's not so much power it's who has control of the oil.
:(
Arkless Electronics
23-03-2017, 15:50
I condemn without question any form of violence against man or animal. BUT we must remember that in the eyes of these people WE are the terrorists - we bomb them, murder their mothers and sons - and that a tiny proportion of them 'fight back' is pretty normal in that context. (We're doing it in Yemen right now).
What we are seeing is a direct result of our own foreign policy/lies and immorality.
Religion (ridiculous) isn't the reason.... Power based in the West and it's political agenda is the reason.
Here's a little truth as an example..
Libya. I have relatives there. Gaddafi was the darling of the US for a long time. In Libya electricity was free. Every person had a home. Gaddafi refused to house his own father until every other citizen had a home. Water was free. Petrol was 10 cents a gallon. Women could go to university. It was packed with British and Americans (even when in the press sanctions were put on the country and all business denied). It was sitting on trillions of dollars worth of oil.
And then CIA operatives (filmed) suddenly began training 'rebels' in the farce that was the Arab spring. Gaddafi had fallen from favour and had to go. And so he did.
And within 2 fucking days there was a World Bank on the main Street in Tripoli. And suddenly everyone had to pay for everything.
How are my relatives living now...
In their cellars. Living in fear of the Islamist fanatics that now rule because of the vacuum of power. They are in a living hell that the press don't speak about.
Regime change at the whim of American/British/Bankers/politicians. With zero regard for the lives of others because they're brown and far away. History repeating... And our arms industries laughing all the way to the bank.
Terrorism is wrong. Period. But what we face is nothing compared to the daily toll of death, rape and fear in those countries we have meddled in. Nothing.
Yes they are evil - but they are not alone - it's time we in the West looked in the mirror....
+1 well said.
Number of people killed in the UK by Islamist terrorists since records began? 65
Number of civilians in Islamic countries killed by the West in our illegal wars for oil? Apparently not important enough to count... but certainly in the hundreds of thousands. Now we're reaping the whirlwind.
The evil which is the western industrial-military-capitalist complex is probably the greatest evil the world has ever seen, rivalled only by Nazi Germany (Stalin's Russia and Mao's China didn't really export the evil that befell their own people).
It's also immensely insidious in its control of all media and brainwashing of "Joe Public". Even after destroying whole industries and communities and after exporting "our" jobs to China, Taiwan etc, wherever they can feed their greed for money, "they" are still respected by "Mondeo Man" and have even managed to turn his hatred towards anyone seen as "others", "outsiders" whilst seemingly escaping all blame themselves!
"Bloody foreigners/immigrants coming over 'ere taking our jobs"... The "bloody foreigners" are victims just the same as we are and victims of the same master criminal, Mammon. In Poland, Lithuania, Hungary etc etc mines, steel works and ship yards have also been shut down leaving people having to travel further, ie to here, to have any chance of a job.
The evil bastards responsible for all this are the ones swanning about the Med on £200,000,000 yachts, who "buy" governments and control the propaganda spewed forth by the press and the TV... They are the bosses of hedge funds, CEO's of global corporations, people like Murdoch and Trump.. FFS Trump even bought his way to being the so called president of the worlds richest and most powerful country! And yet due to their propaganda Joe Public hates/blames the Polish plumber who is in the same boat as he is!
Bigman80
23-03-2017, 16:01
I utterly condemn the above. It should be deleted. This is basically incitement of racial/religious hatred and even adds the squalor of patriotism and nationalism to the incendiary mix. It is exactly the mantra of sub human scum like Trump and Farage and the rest of the far right. It is precisely this sort of xenophobia that leads to "brave" white blokes spitting on a lone Muslim women who's just sitting on a bus minding her own business etc.
All religion is evil, even Buddhists have been involved in massacres in recent years. Ban the lot I say, but if not then lets not single out members of one religion for hatred. For every one extremist there are millions of law abiding Muslims just going about their lives.
I don't see calls to ban/deport/vilify Catholics after a tiny proportion of them committed murders in the name of the IRA... or are they OK 'cos they're white, speak English and are culturally a part of something some would class as "us" rather than "them"?
People of evil intent have used the "god told me to do it" excuse for centuries and with many different brands of god and no doubt so long as people are of such medieval mind set as to believe in sky wizards of various forms it will continue unfortunately.
"An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind" Gandhi.
By banning all religions you are essentially becoming the problem youre fighting against.
We should never have been in Iraq. Simple. It's not our place to intervene in the affairs of other countries. The world Police (USA) Led us down a the garden path. Removing Saddam Hussein caused the uprising to ISIS etc.
Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk
Haselsh1
23-03-2017, 16:33
"As you sow so shall you reap"
@farflungstar
Great post. True facts. Gadaffi was about to sell oil in Euros rather than $US and was trying to launch a new pan-African gold-backed currency. He basically signed his own death warrant.
Yeah, as regards the last few replies I don't think its quite as simple as blaming the west s foreign policy for everything ! After all intervention in Bosnia was generally considered to have
saved many, many muslim lives, though this seems to have been forgotten these days. Correct me if i m wrong though as I possibly know more about hi fi than current affairs !!
farflungstar
23-03-2017, 18:32
The British government tried it's hardest not to intervene in the Bosnia crisis but had to bow to pressure because it was on our doorstep. It was an internal conflict not caused by US or UK foreign policy. The middle East like Africa is a different story...
Spectral Morn
23-03-2017, 19:07
Awful lot of one dimensional opinion/thinking here, but carnal minds, can't and won't grasp the deeper factors at play, because like fancy fuses and cables making a difference they won't/can't accept the spiritual aspect which is the foundation upon which all of this is stacked.
I don't want to get into a flame war about this so I won't comment further, because I know only too well how this will develop, or should that be degenerate.
farflungstar
23-03-2017, 21:07
It is a complete lack of spirituality, consciousness that permits the actions of dark forces. I have a much deeper understanding of what's at play in the world than politics or elitist agendas - they are merely the manifestation of what inhabits the void and vacuum our lack of spirituality creates. But... That's not HiFi.
RobbieGong
24-03-2017, 00:10
Awful lot of one dimensional opinion/thinking here, but carnal minds, can't and won't grasp the deeper factors at play, because like fancy fuses and cables making a difference they won't/can't accept the spiritual aspect which is the foundation upon which all of this is stacked.
I don't want to get into a flame war about this so I won't comment further, because I know only too well how this will develop, or should that be degenerate.
+1
RobbieGong
24-03-2017, 00:11
It is a complete lack of spirituality, consciousness that permits the actions of dark forces. I have a much deeper understanding of what's at play in the world than politics or elitist agendas - they are merely the manifestation of what inhabits the void and vacuum our lack of spirituality creates. But... That's not HiFi.
+1
Infinitely Baffled
24-03-2017, 00:25
... but carnal minds, can't and won't grasp the deeper factors at play, because like fancy fuses and cables making a difference they won't/can't accept the spiritual aspect which is the foundation upon which all of this is stacked.
I have a mind which struggles to grasp what the words "spiritual aspect" mean. I suspect they refer to man's apparent need to invent a mystical "higher level" to explain away things (feelings, aspirations and such) that might otherwise be hard to understand. Inventing other people or forces or worlds outside those which are visible, measurable and demonstrable - ie. the ones we actually live in and with - is at best unhelpful and at worst catastophically destructive. This is because people are then unable to resist banding together with others who share the same concept of what that higher level or "spirituality" is like (usually in strident opposition to others whose concept is different). "Spirituality" to me simply means an unwillingness to deal with things as they are.
IB
RobbieGong
24-03-2017, 01:01
I have a mind which struggles to grasp what the words "spiritual aspect" mean. I suspect they refer to man's apparent need to invent a mystical "higher level" to explain away things (feelings, aspirations and such) that might otherwise be hard to understand. Inventing other people or forces or worlds outside those which are visible, measurable and demonstrable - ie. the ones we actually live in and with - is at best unhelpful and at worst catastophically destructive. This is because people are then unable to resist banding together with others who share the same concept of what that higher level or "spirituality" is like (usually in strident opposition to others whose concept is different). "Spirituality" to me simply means an unwillingness to deal with things as they are.
IB
Gary, there is tangible and intangible, same way you have a body, bones, teeth, hair etc (tangible) and there exists the intangible, ( emotions, thoughts... ) which are most certainly not seen but can anyone tell you they do not exist - no because they do.
The spiritual some of us here refer exists but it is intangible, you cant see it nor touch it, some can feel it, sense it, perceive it, as it is very real.
And to break it down further, in this case we are referring to the subject matter root cause coming out of evil which is the source of spiritual darkness.
The seen of us is the physical realm, the unseen but which absolutely exists is of the spiritual realm, as I say, unseen but very real.
Spiritual warfare exists, unseen but very real, a battle in the spiritual realms between good and evil
It influences the physical (man) by way of the mind, thoughts, emotions (intangible but real)
The results of it's manifestation are seen in the physical (here and now in this physical realm / existence earth.
In this case we see the manifestation of spiritual darkness which has influenced, motivated and deceived the mind to purpose evil, death, through the trickle down of greed, power, ulterior agenda and so on.
Yesterdays events were the tail end of something that started way higher up where powers and principalities reside and make decisions, not driven or influenced by the spirit of God, love.....
but the spirit of greed, vanity, power, dominion, which is evil and very real
It's not about man's apparent need to invent a mystical "higher level" to explain away things
It's about understanding what is going on, in the root and source sense and not the leaf and branches sense which is he/she done it, they are bad, it's religion blah blah sense which completely misses it
We have to really understand and know what life is about and what those who really run this world are about, what their agenda is, what influences them,
what they believe and so on as that will reveal much about the way of things and this world we live in - trust me on that
Arkless Electronics
24-03-2017, 02:02
I have a mind which struggles to grasp what the words "spiritual aspect" mean. I suspect they refer to man's apparent need to invent a mystical "higher level" to explain away things (feelings, aspirations and such) that might otherwise be hard to understand. Inventing other people or forces or worlds outside those which are visible, measurable and demonstrable - ie. the ones we actually live in and with - is at best unhelpful and at worst catastophically destructive. This is because people are then unable to resist banding together with others who share the same concept of what that higher level or "spirituality" is like (usually in strident opposition to others whose concept is different). "Spirituality" to me simply means an unwillingness to deal with things as they are.
IB
Well said!
Those keen to take the simplistic and tidy view that all the world's problems are the result of religion might wish to consider the fact that the mass-murderers of the 20th century were atheists to a man.
Guys,
I'm not happy with the narrow-minded, anti-religion direction this discussion is taking. The selfish lack of consideration for the beliefs and feelings of others here different from you is not very enamouring, to say the least.
Please remember that there are many of us here, including myself as a practising Catholic, who are Christians, have faith in God and are caring people who manage to lead decent, law-abiding lives, and as such find some of the recent anti-religion sentiments expressed, intolerant, vulgar and deeply insulting.
Therefore, for the remainder of this discussion, please refrain from making any further remarks of that nature. From now on, any found will be removed without further warning, and those guilty will receive a week's holiday.
When discussing highly emotive topics such as this, close to everyone's hearts, *think* about how what you're about to type will be taken by others here with different beliefs, instead of selfishly channelling your (justified anger) indirectly at them and/or their faith, instead of at those who deserve it.
Now, let's get back to discussing the thread topic, minus the above!
Marco.
I condemn without question any form of violence against man or animal. BUT we must remember that in the eyes of these people WE are the terrorists - we bomb them, murder their mothers and sons - and that a tiny proportion of them 'fight back' is pretty normal in that context. (We're doing it in Yemen right now).
What we are seeing is a direct result of our own foreign policy/lies and immorality.
Religion (ridiculous) isn't the reason.... Power based in the West and it's political agenda is the reason.
Here's a little truth as an example..
Libya. I have relatives there. Gaddafi was the darling of the US for a long time. In Libya electricity was free. Every person had a home. Gaddafi refused to house his own father until every other citizen had a home. Water was free. Petrol was 10 cents a gallon. Women could go to university. It was packed with British and Americans (even when in the press sanctions were put on the country and all business denied). It was sitting on trillions of dollars worth of oil.
And then CIA operatives (filmed) suddenly began training 'rebels' in the farce that was the Arab spring. Gaddafi had fallen from favour and had to go. And so he did.
And within 2 fucking days there was a World Bank on the main Street in Tripoli. And suddenly everyone had to pay for everything.
How are my relatives living now...
In their cellars. Living in fear of the Islamist fanatics that now rule because of the vacuum of power. They are in a living hell that the press don't speak about.
Regime change at the whim of American/British/Bankers/politicians. With zero regard for the lives of others because they're brown and far away. History repeating... And our arms industries laughing all the way to the bank.
Terrorism is wrong. Period. But what we face is nothing compared to the daily toll of death, rape and fear in those countries we have meddled in. Nothing.
Yes they are evil - but they are not alone - it's time we in the West looked in the mirror....
Great post, Adrian - and *so* spot on, in terms of the reality of the situation! :clap:
Marco.
farflungstar
24-03-2017, 08:54
Spirituality is not religion. Nor is it a means to explain anything away. Spirituality is the opposite of man made religion. For me it is the understanding that I am an expression of the universe and that I am connected to everything and everyone within it. But that is a very simplistic explanation.
I ve chatted with q a few Libyans. Oddly there are q a few here in Malaysian unis.
Most of the people loved Gadaffi
As the post above he was good to his people.
But his proposal that oil be traded in something other than USD was his downfall.
Hilary got him, killed like a rat in a hole
Infinitely Baffled
24-03-2017, 09:28
Gary, there is tangible and intangible, same way you have a body, bones, teeth, hair etc (tangible) and there exists the intangible, ( emotions, thoughts... ) which are most certainly not seen but can anyone tell you they do not exist - no because they do.
The spiritual some of us here refer exists but it is intangible, you cant see it nor touch it, some can feel it, sense it, perceive it, as it is very real.
And to break it down further, in this case we are referring to the subject matter root cause coming out of evil which is the source of spiritual darkness.
The seen of us is the physical realm, the unseen but which absolutely exists is of the spiritual realm, as I say, unseen but very real.
Spiritual warfare exists, unseen but very real, a battle in the spiritual realms between good and evil
It influences the physical (man) by way of the mind, thoughts, emotions (intangible but real)
The results of it's manifestation are seen in the physical (here and now in this physical realm / existence earth.
In this case we see the manifestation of spiritual darkness which has influenced, motivated and deceived the mind to purpose evil, death, through the trickle down of greed, power, ulterior agenda and so on.
Yesterdays events were the tail end of something that started way higher up where powers and principalities reside and make decisions, not driven or influenced by the spirit of God, love.....
but the spirit of greed, vanity, power, dominion, which is evil and very real
It's not about man's apparent need to invent a mystical "higher level" to explain away things
It's about understanding what is going on, in the root and source sense and not the leaf and branches sense which is he/she done it, they are bad, it's religion blah blah sense which completely misses it
We have to really understand and know what life is about and what those who really run this world are about, what their agenda is, what influences them,
what they believe and so on as that will reveal much about the way of things and this world we live in - trust me on that
That's really hard for me to get to grips with, Robert! I understand the individual words and I can follow the sentence construction. But somehow, by the time I get to the end of the paragraph, the sense has eluded me. I suppose it just doesn't fit with my scheme of how I look at and understand the world. It's like trying to force square shaped ideas through round holes (or choose any other shape you like - no value judgement intended). It just won't go through.
And on top of that, I don't enjoy debates which have the object of knocking-down somebody else's belief system. Faced with someone, such as you, whom I take to be thoroughly decent and wanting desperately to show that the world can be a better place, it gives me no pleasure to have to say "no it can't (at least, not through the agency of a higher force)". I'm afraid that for me there are atoms, there is electricity, chemicals and magnetism(*). And that's your lot. That's what accounts for the existence of everything - including emotions, thoughts, ambitions, jealousies, the lot! In my view there is not a parallel, but undiscovered, set of materials which goes to make up the "spiritual" world. There is no "spirit". When we die, we are gone. There isn't a shadow or a whiff of us remaining. Only an imprint of us in other folks' memories (which consists of atoms electricity, chemicals, magnetism etc).
This may sound bleak to you, Robert, but it's really not. I am very content with these beliefs. The sooner you stop the contortions of trying to work out what the "meaning" of life is, what the grand scheme is behind it all, why the external powers of "good" and "evil" can't just be friends, the sooner you release yourself from the agony of not understanding anything. Doesn't mean you don't care, and it doesn't absolve you of the responsibility to be the best person you can be. It just means you can address the world around you as it is, without looking for added layers of invisible magic.
Anyway, we are probably in danger of pissing-off a whole lot of people who were under the impression that this is a hi-fi forum. Though maybe not; maybe there is a read-across to the world of hi-fi. Is there maybe a comparison to be made between folks who believe there is flesh and spirit, with hi-fi enthusiasts who believe their sound reproduction equipment contains not just electrical components, but also an invisible sprinking of magic "voicing" dust that makes their components sound different to other similar ones?;)
IB
(*) Forgive the outrageously simplified description of what makes up the physical world. This is someone who didn't even manage to take separate physics and chemistry "O" Levels - I had to take them as a combined subject! No bad thing, though, I could use the time saved for extra logic lessons! (not really)
Infinitely Baffled
24-03-2017, 09:45
Guys,
I'm not happy with the narrow-minded, anti-religion direction this discussion is taking. The selfish lack of consideration for the beliefs and feelings of others here different from you is not very enamouring, to say the least.
Please remember that there are many of us here, including myself as a practising Catholic, who are Christians, have faith in God and are caring people who manage to lead decent, law-abiding lives, and as such find some of the recent anti-religion sentiments expressed, intolerant, vulgar and deeply insulting.
Therefore, please refrain from making any further condescending remarks of that nature, for the remainder of this discussion. From now on, any found will be removed without further warning, and those guilty will receive a week's holiday.
When discussing highly emotive topics such as this, close to everyone's hearts, *think* about how what you're about to type will be taken by others here with different beliefs, instead of selfishly channelling your (justified anger) indirectly at them and/or their faith, instead of at those who deserve it.
Now, let's get back to discussing the thread topic, minus the above!
Marco.
Marco, my post #56 took me so long to type that I was busy at it whilst your embargo above was published. So I hope you will not take it as a deliberate flouting of your rules. Furthermore I hope you don't find my post inherently offensive in the way you have described ("intolerant", "vulgar", "condescending", "offensive"), since it is expressed soberly and in a perfectly moderate fashion.
May I ask, though, why religion is often treated (by the religious) as a "no-go" area? It's ring-fenced, with a big "hands off" sign in front of it. It's an opinion, the same as any other. It should be subject to respectful debate and thoughtful exchange of ideas like any other. Why is it specially protected from harm? Why don't the religious embrace the opportunity to discuss it with folks who don't share their view? (And by the way, saying "because lots of people are practising Christians, and it might offend them" is not an adequate explanation).
With respect (yes, really)
IB
RobbieGong
24-03-2017, 09:45
Totally understand and respect your view Gary. I also appreciate that you have a heart not to want to P people off rather express how you see it, which I totally get and respect :)
farflungstar
24-03-2017, 09:54
That's really hard for me to get to grips with, Robert! I understand the individual words and I can follow the sentence construction. But somehow, by the time I get to the end of the paragraph, the sense has eluded me. I suppose it just doesn't fit with my scheme of how I look at and understand the world. It's like trying to force square shaped ideas through round holes (or choose any other shape you like - no value judgement intended). It just won't go through.
And on top of that, I don't enjoy debates which have the object of knocking-down somebody else's belief system. Faced with someone, such as you, whom I take to be thoroughly decent and wanting desperately to show that the world can be a better place, it gives me no pleasure to have to say "no it can't (at least, not through the agency of a higher force)". I'm afraid that for me there are atoms, there is electricity, chemicals and magnetism(*). And that's your lot. That's what accounts for the existence of everything - including emotions, thoughts, ambitions, jealousies, the lot! In my view there is not a parallel, but undiscovered, set of materials which goes to make up the "spiritual" world. There is no "spirit". When we die, we are gone. There isn't a shadow or a whiff of us remaining. Only an imprint of us in other folks' memories (which consists of atoms electricity, chemicals, magnetism etc).
This may sound bleak to you, Robert, but it's really not. I am very content with these beliefs. The sooner you stop the contortions of trying to work out what the "meaning" of life is, what's the grand scheme is behind it all, why the external powers of "good" and "evil" can't just be friends, the sooner you release yourself from the agony of not understanding anything. Doesn't mean you don't care, and it doesn't absolve you of the responsibility to be the best person you can be. It just means you can address the world around you as it is, without looking for added layers of invisible magic.
Anyway, we are probably in danger of pissing-off a whole lot of people who were under the impression that this is a hi-fi forum. Though maybe not; maybe there is a read-across to the world of hi-fi. Is there maybe a comparison to be made between folks who believe there is flesh and spirit, with hi-fi enthusiasts who believe their sound reproduction equipment contains not just electrical components, but also an invisible sprinking of magic "voicing" dust that makes their components sound different to other similar ones?;)
IB
(*) Forgive the outrageously simplified description of what makes up the physical world. This is someone who didn't even manage to take separate physics and chemistry "O" Levels - I had to take them as a combined subject! No bad thing, though, I could use the time saved for extra logic lessons! (not really)
Im anti religion - but it's the summary observation that we are nothing more than atoms that leads to people treating each other like atoms and what we saw yesterday.
Spirituality and humanity walk hand in glove. An atom has neither. We are all the same - we have the same parents, whether black, white or yellow we are brothers and sisters. Religion is about division, as are politics - divide and conquer. In a united world the powerful would fall. Industries would collapse. Look back into history... And see the future...
walpurgis
24-03-2017, 09:58
Spirituality and humanity walk hand in glove. An atom has neither. We are all the same - we have the same parents, whether black, white or yellow we are brothers and sisters.
Nope. I tried, honestly. But really can't figure this out at all.
farflungstar
24-03-2017, 10:05
Nope. I tried, honestly. But really can't figure this out at all.
You cannot understand that you are a member of the same species wth the same ancestral parents as someone in Africa or Iran? Or that humanity is understanding this and treating one another as your brother or sister?
Marco, my post #56 took me so long to type that I was busy at it whilst your embargo above was published. So I hope you will not take it as a deliberate flouting of your rules. Furthermore I hope you don't find my post inherently offensive in the way you have described ("intolerant", "vulgar", "condescending", "offensive"), since it is expressed soberly and in a perfectly moderate fashion.
May I ask, though, why religion is often treated (by the religious) as a "no-go" area? It's ring-fenced, with a big "hands off" sign in front of it. It's an opinion, the same as any other. It should be subject to respectful debate and thoughtful exchange of ideas like any other. Why is it specially protected from harm? Why don't the religious embrace the opportunity to discuss it with folks who don't share their view? (And by the way, saying "because lots of people are practising Christians, and it might offend them" is not an adequate explanation).
With respect (yes, really)
IB
Hi Gary,
I have no problem whatsoever with your last (well-written and expressed post), so you can relax, as that is not what I was referring to.
It was blanket, ill-considered and divisive remarks made earlier, such as "all religion is evil", and it being +1'd by folk, which I have a major problem with, as remarks such as that qualify for everything I described it as earlier, and we will not tolerate such comments being made, for reasons outlined.
So carry on, as I'm enjoying reading your (perfectly reasonable) points of view! :cool:
Marco.
walpurgis
24-03-2017, 10:11
You cannot understand that you are a member of the same species wth the same ancestral parents as someone in Africa or Iran? Or that humanity is understanding this and treating one another as your brother or sister?
The "spirituality" and " atom" references baffled me.
I have no problems with spirituality. Non whatsoever, and am inclined to believe you make your own spirit as you trudge through life. It will be this that meets you when you die. Religion has not really done anyone harm, it has been peoples lack of spirituality that has, in name of religion, or whatever you decided to use as motivation for your deeds.
We are atoms, but very special ones, if we want to be.
Infinitely Baffled
24-03-2017, 10:13
Spirituality and humanity walk hand in glove. An atom has neither. We are all the same - we have the same parents, whether black, white or yellow we are brothers and sisters. Religion is about division, as are politics - divide and conquer. In a united world the powerful would fall. Industries would collapse. Look back into history... And see the future...
I don't disagree with what you say, Adrian. The point I was trying to make is that "spirituality", when the word is used as a expression of the values and requirements of an external, all-knowing, all-good being, doesn't mean anything to me since I haven't worked-out how to believe in the existence of such a being. However, you appear to be using the word in a man-made sense - implying perhaps a desire to behave towards mankind in a fair, decent and kind way. I agree with that aspiration completely, but for me that falls into the category of emotions and ambitions I mentioned in my earlier post, which are simply the product of chemicals, electricity and magnetism. These are human constructs and belong in the physical world. My concern is to exclude the influence of mysticism.
By the way, I'm not sure we want power to crumble and industries to collapse, do we? We just want the right sort of both.
IB
Religion is about division...
Not when used *properly*, instead of being twisted to suit an agenda, it isn't. I've lived all of my adult life as a devoted, practicing Catholic, and I can assure you that religion, as practiced within my circles, is about anything BUT that! ;)
Marco.
Totally understand and respect your view Gary. I also appreciate that you have a heart not to want to P people off rather express how you see it, which I totally get and respect :)
Yes, indeed - and *that* is essentially what I was getting at earlier. In discussions such as this, you need to show due consideration for others here whom you might be deeply insulting, and very personally too, when going 'off on a rant' about religion, however justified or not it may seem!
So, *think* about what you've typed first, and whether that's the likely effect your comments will have, before hitting the send button.... ;)
Marco.
farflungstar
24-03-2017, 10:24
I'm bowing out if this as it's quickly becoming about religion, a misogynistic construct of control and the most lucrative business in the world. The Vatican Bank, The private Vatican army.... As mentioned earlier, we are not allowed to question why people choose to believe in fantasy, and it's their right to do so. I have no problem with that - but any religion that puts itself above another is devisive, any religion that forbids contraception to millions of Africans who will thereby contract HIV on the basis of a myth is, in my opinion, culpable of genocide.
farflungstar
24-03-2017, 10:26
Oops. I've probably just pissed someone off - but isn't that the basis of freedom of speech?
It's obviously your carefully considered POV, Adrian, not said out of malice against anyone here.
However, let's not centre the discussion around religion, which when practiced humanely can [and indeed does] do a lot of good, but rather (if necessary) the abuse of religion, and the twisting of it to suit one's own selfish ends, with often devastating results.
There is a difference, you know, and good and evil do exist in ALL things! ;)
The problem is MAN misusing religion, not RELIGION misusing man.
Marco.
anthonyTD
24-03-2017, 10:55
I often wonder how many God fearing [choose your prefrence] so-called good people in this world would continue to be good, if it was proven to them without a shadow of a doubt, that no matter how you conduct yourself, as a human, nothing bad is going to come of you' when your time on this world is up!
I have always been of the belief, if someone is genuinely good, they will be good' no matter what their belief system is.:)
A...
farflungstar
24-03-2017, 11:01
I agree Marco. But my point is simple - the only thing which divides us naturally is geography and tradition based on that geography. Anything else that defines separate groups such as religion is by nature divisive.
The little girl playing amongst the bombs in Syria is as much my sister as is my sister living in Cardiff - ideology shouldn't be a part of that - it's basic humanity.
I remember sitting in church at one of my grandparents funerals a very long time ago. The words the priest spoke... Only through me (JC) will you find a place in my father's house.... Really pissed me off and at the end of the service I asked him... Why should I speak to the monkey (JC) when I can speak directly with the organ grinder (God)? Where will my Muslim relatives go after death? He stuck to his mantra. I couldnt speak to God direct and my relatives were going to hell... Divisive.
Anyway - I'll shut up. In the school I own there is only 1 banned topic - religion - because it causes real animosity between people to the point of near violence - divisive.
Yes, but it doesn't *have* to be like that. It's how we as (fallible) human beings interpret and apply religion in our lives that ultimately makes it divisive (and violent) or not.
It is not innately *automatically* so.
Marco.
farflungstar
24-03-2017, 11:40
There's more of the divine in an ancient oak than in any church. And ultimately love can only be interpreted one way - it's when you begin to apply rules and conditions to it that it corrupts.
This assumption that people are preoccupied with the meaning of their existence is tosh - the majority of people are too wrapped up in the misery of their lives or daily struggle for survival - but religion says don't worry... Suffer now, it's good to suffer, pay us 10% of your money and we guarantee an eternity in paradise. Even HiFi hasn't come up with such snake oil!
Lol... Ok, I think you've said your piece on that matter now. Self-righteous anger is never an attractive trait! :nono:
Marco.
farflungstar
24-03-2017, 11:48
Yes I'll take your hint and shut up.
Yes, but it doesn't *have* to be like that. It's how we as (fallible) human beings interpret and apply religion in our lives that ultimately makes it divisive (and violent) or not.
Apart from the bit about Prods burning in Hell for eternity, obvs*. Have to have some standards.
*From my fading recollection of Catholic doctrine, I think Muslims should be OK, though they might have to settle for Limbo (righteous heathens and all that).
Apart from the bit about Prods burning in Hell for eternity..
You must've attended too many Celtic vs. Rangers games! ;)
Seriously though, I'd perish the thought if our priest (or indeed any of the parishioners) would ever utter such a thing during any mass I went to.....
Marco.
You must've attended too many Celtic vs. Rangers games! ;)
Seriously though, I'd perish the thought if our priest (or indeed any of the parishioners) would ever utter such a thing during mass.....
Marco.
No doubt it's gone all namby-pamby now. Back when I was a lad, we used to pray for the conversion of the Jews on Good Friday.
walpurgis
24-03-2017, 20:59
No doubt it's gone all namby-pamby now. Back when I was a lad, we used to pray for the conversion of the Jews on Good Friday.
Well you may have. I didn't go to church.
Well you may have. I didn't go to church.
Me neither. Once I was old enough to get a say, which was quite young, I ended my trips to churches bar the odd funeral
walpurgis
24-03-2017, 23:08
It's been kicking off in France now. Gunfire and casualties at Lille. Started about an hour ago.
The enemy within strikes again!
Ninanina
25-03-2017, 21:18
The enemy within strikes again!
I think that's where our dangers are arising from...
Ninanina
25-03-2017, 23:26
Maybe Trump is also correct in trying to have a 'travel ban' on certain countries... ;)
Light Dependant Resistor
26-03-2017, 06:06
Maybe Trump is also correct in trying to have a 'travel ban' on certain countries... ;)
Hi Bev
No, because Trump is failing to abide by .... the American Constitution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Constitution
which he swore to abide by.
"The First Amendment prohibits Congress from obstructing the exercise of certain individual freedoms: freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly, and right to petition. Its Free Exercise Clause guarantees a person's right to hold whatever religious beliefs he or she wants, and to freely exercise that belief, and its Establishment Clause prevents the federal government from creating an official national church or favoring one set of religious beliefs over another. The amendment guarantees an individual's right to express and to be exposed to a wide range of opinions and views. It was intended to ensure a free exchange of ideas even if the ideas are unpopular. It also guarantees an individual's right to physically gather with a group of people to picket or protest; or associate with others in groups for economic, political or religious purposes. Additionally, it guarantees an individual's right to petition the government for a redress of grievances."
The ACLU https://www.aclu.org/ thankfully is active, as is the American justice system reminding Trump of the Constitution at every turn he makes, when he should have
read and know what the Constitution means. If Trump continues not abiding by the Constitution, his time as President is fast coming to an end, and it was silly putting him there
in the first place. His agenda this coming week is to try to balance tax cuts against massive military spending against Obama Care remaining ( thank goodness for that ).
it does not add up. So he will be back to square one, but still apparently blind to the Constitution.
He should take a week off read the Constitution cover to cover and start abiding by it, as until he does so, he is just wasting everyone's time and looking sillier every day.
Maybe Trump is also correct in trying to have a 'travel ban' on certain countries... ;)
The words 'Trump' and 'correct' don't go well together.
I've just 'trumped' [curry blowback from last night], and I dedicate this morning's (rather pungent) gaseous emission to Donald. Enjoy! :cool:
Marco.
I think that's where our dangers are arising from...
I'd say it's more to do with US and UK governments, and the elite, fucking with things they shouldn't be fucking with ;)
Marco.
Have to say I wince every time someone says 'Well these things wouldn't happen if the UK and the USA hadn't blah blah blah.'
There is no possible justification for driving cars into groups of schoolchildren. Absolutely none. These perpetrators are mad dogs and there is only one thing you can do with a mad dog.
There is no possible justification for driving cars into groups of schoolchildren. Absolutely none.
Of course there isn't, and no-one is disputing that. However, just like anything else in life, good or evil, there's a reason why it happens!
Marco.
Yes. Nutters who have been egged on by other nutters. I don't see that it helps anyone by trying to find logical reasons because there aren't any. Saying that they are the result of our foreign policy is essentially saying we are to blame, and therefore justifying their actions.
I've no problem with people being opposed to Western policy in the middle-east or anywhere else, I don't agree with it myself, but it cannot be used as a justification for this sort of thing, anymore than the IRA could justify killing women and children with their bombs by citing something King Billy did several centuries ago. That shit has to be called for what it is.
Yes. Nutters who have been egged on by other nutters.
Indeed, and also US and UK governments (together with the elite), seeking to obtain more power, wealth and control, starting pointless wars (by breading hatred), and generally meddling in things that they shouldn't be, in order to further fill their coffers and become even more powerful....
We could argue all day about this (and TBH, it's way too nice outside to be sitting on a computer arguing about fooking politics), so best just to 'agree to disagree' and go away and do something more productive instead.
I know am! :cool:
Marco.
Indeed, and also US and UK governments (together with the elite), seeking to obtain more power, wealth and control, starting pointless wars (by breading hatred), and generally meddling in things that they shouldn't be, in order to further fill their coffers and become even more powerful....
I'd say it's (at least) as much a result of misplaced good intentions (and we all know what they pave the road to) as wealth, greed and stuff like that.
Remember General Manuel 'He may be a son of a bitch but he's our son of a bitch' Noriega?
Gadaffi was also our son of a bitch, likewise, Saddam in Iraq and Assad in Syria. When they stop being our son of a bitch they just become a son of a bitch and then the writing is on the wall for them. At the top level it is just the same as mobs and gangsters. You step out of line you get whacked. Same thing was going on in Roman times and it has never changed. You play at the top level you have to be a pragmatist above all else. Ugly but true.
I'd say it's (at least) as much a result of misplaced good intentions (and we all know what they pave the road to) as wealth, greed and stuff like that.
Some of that too, yes, from those who aren't as corrupt or power-hungry.
Let's not forget, however, that wars make money, for those in the best positions to gain from it, and that money equals power, and power gives control, which then allows you to start the whole nasty process again, to achieve the same ends - and that's essentially the root of this particular evil.
Right, see you crazy kids later. I'm off outside now in lovely sunshine, getting the barbecue ready for lunch! :cool:
Marco.
walpurgis
26-03-2017, 10:39
These perpetrators are mad dogs and there is only one thing you can do with a mad dog.
I agree.
Light Dependant Resistor
26-03-2017, 10:51
I've just 'trumped' [curry blowback from last night], and I dedicate this morning's (rather pungent) gaseous emission to Donald. Enjoy! :cool:
Marco.
Maybe bottle that for the next occasion that comes along, like his resignation :lol:
Spectral Morn
26-03-2017, 11:00
Yes. Nutters who have been egged on by other nutters. I don't see that it helps anyone by trying to find logical reasons because there aren't any. Saying that they are the result of our foreign policy is essentially saying we are to blame, and therefore justifying their actions.
I've no problem with people being opposed to Western policy in the middle-east or anywhere else, I don't agree with it myself, but it cannot be used as a justification for this sort of thing, anymore than the IRA could justify killing women and children with their bombs by citing something King Billy did several centuries ago. That shit has to be called for what it is.
WHAT, are you talking about. That comment seriously shows just how completely ignorant you are of the troubles.
The Irish Republican Army had no interest in King William of Orange. Their beef was that their land - as they see it - is occupied by a foreign army and government the British army and government. Their land, split in twain by Irish Loyalists who are deluded British lovers, brown noses as they call them. They want Britain out, British army out and the island reunited. Back in the 60s and 70s they then also wanted a socialist Ireland. Not sure if modern Sinn Fein and Nationalism is still socialist and Marxist.
It is the Northern Irish loyalists who celebrate King William of Orange and the battle of the Boyne river on the 12th of July each year. The IRA have no interest in King Billy :doh: The irony of this is that the Pope financed this expedition by William. Rabid Protestant loyalists don't like that bit of fact being mentioned, as it damages their anti Catholic mind set, the very thing they celibate was paid for by the Vatican.
Anyway folks if you are going to comment about Ireland get your facts right.... please.
WHAT, are you talking about. That comment seriously shows just how completely ignorant you are of the troubles.
The Irish Republican Army had no interest in King William of Orange. Their beef was that their land - as they see it - is occupied by a foreign army and government the British army and government. Their land, split in twain by Irish Loyalists who are deluded British lovers, brown noses as they call them. They want Britain out, British army out and the island reunited. Back in the 60s and 70s they then also wanted a socialist Ireland. Not sure if modern Sinn Fein and Nationalism is still socialist and Marxist.
It is the Northern Irish loyalists who celebrate King William of Orange and the battle of the Boyne river on the 12th of July each year. The IRA have no interest in King Billy :doh: The irony of this is that the Pope financed this expedition by William. Rabid Protestant loyalists don't like that bit of fact being mentioned, as it damages their anti Catholic mind set, the very thing they celibate was paid for by the Vatican.
Anyway folks if you are going to comment about Ireland get your facts right.... please.
The IRA and their protestant opposite numbers are just gangsters like the mafia, only they use the 'nationalism' thing to recruit wide eyed teenagers. NI was not 'occupied by a foreign army', the army were sent in to stop the mob wars in 1969.
I did not say that the IRA celebrate William of Orange, being of Irish Catholic heritage I am well aware of the history. My point was that the events of his reign are still used as an example of 'English oppression' hundreds of years later when the situation is entirely different.
Spectral Morn
26-03-2017, 11:39
The IRA and their protestant opposite numbers are just gangsters like the mafia, only they use the 'nationalism' thing to recruit wide eyed teenagers. NI was not 'occupied by a foreign army', the army were sent in to stop the mob wars in 1969.
I did not say that the IRA celebrate William of Orange, being of Irish Catholic heritage I am well aware of the history. My point was that the events of his reign are still used as an example of 'English oppression' hundreds of years later when the situation is entirely different.
Seriously Martin you haven't a clue what you are talking about, in all my many years living here I have never heard an IRA man/woman or Sinn Fein member mention William of Orange, plenty of loyalist protestants have, but not nationalists. William of Orange was a Dutch invader who took the English throne, mostly without firing a shot, a successful Dutch invasion of England. Yes its about protestant superiority over Catholics, but nothing to do with British oppression in Ireland, that is a totally different thing.
I am no apologist for any violence but I can understand what fuelled the Civil rights marches and it was Bloody Sunday that was the single biggest IRA recruiter, British troops running rampant murdering civilians. Sure they were just scum paddies what does it matter ? Each one of those murderers should be tried and the keys thrown away, one of the darkest days in British army history, and the major event that gave the IRA and other Nationalists the fuel to run their campaigns - hatred of Britain, British governments and the security forces.
Its fair comment that most modern paramilitaries on both sides are gangsters but back in the 60s and before, nope their view is they are/were freedom fighters (or community protectors if protestant) and the British ruling classes most certainly oppressed the indigenous people here, both protestant and catholic, as they did in Scotland and Wales.
And regarding the London attack politics does not fuel that sort of thing but Wahabiest theology which comes from Saudi Arabia. Maybe its time the UK stopped supporting Saudi Arabia.
I am pulling out of this now before I say something I might regret saying.
Bigman80
26-03-2017, 12:05
I don't like this thread.
Why not delete the whole thing and be done with it. Opinions on the IRA, religion, terrorism and all other matters are largely sectional, uninformed and cause division. This is an audio forum, let's get back to that rather than this shit.
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