sibilance

[Covenant]

Of all the faults in recording and reproduction of music it is sibilance that I find the most irritating and unacceptable. Just think, when you talk to someone, there is no hissing or exaggeration of words beginning with s unless they have some kind of speech impediment. Why then is it common in so many recordings? :scratch:
I can think of many albums that have this problem but Coldplay's X & Y is a fine example. I have only played it once.
At the moment I have a pair of sibilant headphones. Its frustrating because they are very good otherwise but I can only listen for a few minutes before becoming aware of the problem, then I am not listening to the music I am listening for the sibilance.

[Themis]

:scratch: because of the graphic equalisers used while recording or mastering ? :eyebrows:

Seriously, I don't know. Probably bad mastering.

[John]

Totally agree Jerry it really winds me up too
I think its just bad mixing but do not how those producers keep getting work

[Ali Tait]

Compression?

[Covenant]

Compression?

You may be right but it seems to me that its always been a problem, before modern heavy compression became common. Is it a fault of cheaper michrophones?

[Stratmangler]

You may be right but it seems to me that its always been a problem, before modern heavy compression became common. Is it a fault of cheaper michrophones?

More likely due to poor knowledge of microphones and not employing appropriate eq correction.

Chris:)

[Themis]

I would rather say dithering problems : artifacts from 24/48 or 24/96 to 16/44.1

[REM]

I find a lot of early period Pink Floyd recording have a lot of sibilance, I used to think it was due to poor lp pressings but find it's also present on cd hence is part of the recording itself. In recent years I've come to think that it is in fact a deliberate 'artifact', exaggerated by analogue flanging, to in some way enhance the listening experience. Maybe Coldplay have picked up on this and are attempting something similar, God knows they need all the help they can get in that regard:rolleyes:

Cheers

[Covenant]

Yes, I dont miss playing the Coldplay album Ralph and I didnt buy any others!.
Pink Floyd sorted things by DSOTM, a well recorded album.

[The Grand Wazoo]

More likely due to poor knowledge of microphones and not employing appropriate eq correction.

Chris:)

I'd think Chris was closest to the mark here? I've always thought it happened at the microphone.

[Spectral Morn]

Of all the faults in recording and reproduction of music it is sibilance that I find the most irritating and unacceptable. Just think, when you talk to someone, there is no hissing or exaggeration of words beginning with s unless they have some kind of speech impediment. Why then is it common in so many recordings? :scratch:
I can think of many albums that have this problem but Coldplay's X & Y is a fine example. I have only played it once.
At the moment I have a pair of sibilant headphones. Its frustrating because they are very good otherwise but I can only listen for a few minutes before becoming aware of the problem, then I am not listening to the music I am listening for the sibilance.


I think its about selectivity of listening. I am aware of sibilance when talking to others or even in my own voice. It is obvious and part of how humans reproduce S sounds. It is probably the case that some recordings or systems will emphasise these sounds if poorly matched or suffering from issues in the treble region.

My personal bug bear is poor diction in singing, but I will concede that a system that over eggs sibilance is annoying.....digital recordings tend to imho/e have more of these issues than good analogue ones. However in saying that if some one over eggs S sounds when singing or speaking then that is a quirk of their voice and all a good/well matched system is doing is reproducing that as is. Only seeing/hearing that artist in the flesh close up and un-amplified would make it truly clear if that was the case or not.


Regards D S D L

[anthonyTD]

hi all,
i think its a mixture of things ie; bad mixing, microphones, and a limitation of headroom in the mike inputs of the mixing desk, it is very annoying, but once in a while you will come across a recording thats just sublime and you realise that the sibilance problem can be overcome, and it makes you realise just how bad those other recordings are. i was listening to stevie wonders songs in the key of life album [one of my all-time favourites] this morning and some of the tracks on there are an example of how good recordings can be!
A...

[Graeme]

Are you sure its the recording?

I used to get lots of sibilance problems but since ive had my esl63's i havent heard a trace of it. The moments in tracks that used to make me wince are lovely and clear now, although maybe still a little bright.
I think my amp may need some tweeking too.

[DSJR]

I can add a few more to the list - deaf engineers and producers, listening to LOUD monitors with horn tweets off axis, winding the HF up a bit too much to compensate.

The main problems with bad mastering is tapes intended for vinyl use with boosted upper mid, played through B&W801's of various vintages and the engineer not compensating for the non-neutral balance of the "monitors," which were, more likely than not, GIVEN in sponsorship to the studios to use for nowt..

Amazing how so many of these faults disappear when 801's or smaller siblings are used to play these discs.....

By the way, many PASSIVE speaker systems with over-simple crossovers can make things much worse, especially if a badly crossed over metal dome tweeter is used. The frequency overlap causes phase issues and there's often too much mid going into the tweeter, which it DOESN'T like one bit. Also, many bass/mid units take off at lower treble frequencies and this resonance adds to the slightly out-of-phase sssparkle going on in the tweeter...

Of course, there are very many tweets that are just plain incompetent. That awful Scan Squeak thingy used by Naim and Rega for all eternety has a bad resonance at 8 - 9 KHz, easily measured, which gives a chrome plated effect to strings and brass. Even the Spendor version, damped on the coils with ferro-fluid and padded on the front plate, exhibited this to a small degree. Even the modded Vifa dome used in the 1990's ATC's I used, sold and owned was ragged, although active use helped...

Lastly, the sibilant frequencies can be just where not-well-sorted solid state amps (or worn-out valve ones) will distort with odd order and TID nasties, making things worse..

There, I think we've covered it all, but many domestic speakers really do make it tons worse - get a listen to some Harbeths for proof of a brilliantly designed passive speaker range with detail aplenty and no loss of inner detail (I'd also mention ADM9.1's as a good reasonably priced small active, as this sibilance thing is something they wanted to address at the playback end, but I'd probably be lynched..:))

[Themis]

I'd also mention ADM9.1's as a good reasonably priced small active,
I've always wonder one thing:
How can some place solid state bits on special stands (with cones, isolation platforms etc) while others put all this in a speaker (and yet have nice results).
It's a mystery to me...:scratch:

[leo]

Certainly a lot of poor recording about but the HF distortion found in a lot of hifi gear does not help , some gear tends to exaggerate it further

[anthonyTD]

Certainly a lot of poor recording about but the HF distortion found in a lot of hifi gear does not help , some gear tends to exaggerate it further
i second that leo,
for instance a lot of dome tweeters are dreadfull, so much so that i cannot listen to most of the ones i have come into contact with over the years.
also frequency and headroom limitations in preamplifiers and source equipment agrevate the situation too.
A...

[Ali Tait]

Agreed.With a few exceptions,I find cone speakers in general pretty poor compared to my statics.

[DSJR]

I've always wonder one thing:
How can some place solid state bits on special stands (with cones, isolation platforms etc) while others put all this in a speaker (and yet have nice results).
It's a mystery to me...:scratch:

I was going to say that the tweaky ones who prat about with cones, stands etc are deluding themselves, but then many valve amps seem sensitive to it..

I don't think a modern, properly designed amp from ANY manufacturer should be microphonic and well designed cables certainly aren't IMO, except to OCD sufferers..... Putting amps inside a speaker shouldn't make any difference (the ATC amp packs are in internal enclosures anyway, the walls of which add to cabinet rigidity anyway) and to be fair the ADM9 series have the output devices bolted onto the back plate which is sturdy and shouldn't vibrate in any case (the DAC board is suspended I think)

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/adm9b.jpg

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/adm9d.jpg

I think the pics above came from the original Wigwam thread - they're not mine...

[MartinT]

I think poor microphones and eq are largely at fault, as well as poor microphone technique by the performers (i.e. singing too close to models not designed for that level of acoustic input).

Speaking of Coldplay's X&Y album, that is my all-time example of truly shitty recorded quality, it has so many problems I don't really know where to begin. How it could have been released in that state I don't know, but it is virtually unlistenable on my system where other CDs sound superb. The engineer should be taken outside and shot.

[Ali Tait]

Interesting you say that Dave.I've always found valve amps LESS sensitive to what they're sitting on.

[DSJR]

Maybe I had the wrong valve amps :D I'm sure you're right though and perhaps it's certain low level valves that are microphonic.....

The Croft OTL I had for a very few months ('cos of blowing fuses) just sat on the floor on a Target wooden board aiding ventilation and same for the AVI amps I had, which seemed immune to anything done with them.....

I must admit to having the Quads side by side on a thick and cheap (in a sale) chopping block, as I can carry them easier that way :).

[Clive]

I've been hyper-sensitive to unnatural sibilance in the past. I'm much happier now. A lot was to do with how my system handled sibilance. Sibilance is a naturally occurring thing but when it bugs you it's tough to ignore. Don't try to tune out all sibilance, you'll kill the sound. I do find CD more prone to sibilance, also solidstate but fundamentally if your amp and speakers highlight sibilance they are not performing well. Sibilance I have now is natural and I'm fine with it.

[Alex_UK]

engineer should be taken outside and shot.

Quickly followed by Chris Martin, IMO, but I digress...

I noticed sibilance more when I upgraded to my Caiman DAC, but that was I feel because I was getting closer to the recording. Since then (August) I have observed that when I have encountered it, it is usually one of two types of recording (but not always) - 70s recordings on CD not remastered, and smaller recording studios (i.e. the artist's own, or a small independent). I draw the conclusion that with the former it was because the master was eq'd for vinyl/cassette, or in the latter, because the quality of the microphones or technique are not up to scratch. Just my half-arsed assumption, really.

[John]

It was passionate dislike of Siblance that was a lot of the intial driving force for improving my system
For the last few years been pretty happy with how it all sounds

[anthonyTD]

of course some of it could all be down to our ears!
seriously though, when our high frequency response perception starts to drop, we may find sibilance more of a problem, just like bandwidth limiting preamps and source equipment! i have a couple of older gentlemen customers [in their 80] who cannot stand listening to digital recorded music, hence prefer to listen to records.:)
A...

[DSJR]

Absolutely correct A... Even Ash agrees with you (what IS the world coming to? :D)

I reckon I'm blessed to own such a well mannered CD player and now have a good phono stage to really enjoy records too. Best of both really...:)

[Themis]

I never thought of the sibilance problem through this angle...
In this case, perhaps educating owns ears could fix it ? I wonder.

[REM]

Just played 'Herb Alpert presents: Sergoi Mendes & Brasil '66', now if you really want to hear proper sibilance you've really got to hear this:lol:.

(Maybe should have posted this in the 'Skeleton' thread)

Cheers

[technobear]

Repeat after me: One inch dome tweeters are the work of the devil :steam:

The problem can be reduced by the use of a tweeter damping resistor.

Oft times though it is the recording. I find Madonna CDs particularly bad for sibilance - not that I own any of course :o

[Ali Tait]

Maybe I had the wrong valve amps :D I'm sure you're right though and perhaps it's certain low level valves that are microphonic.....

The Croft OTL I had for a very few months ('cos of blowing fuses) just sat on the floor on a Target wooden board aiding ventilation and same for the AVI amps I had, which seemed immune to anything done with them.....

I must admit to having the Quads side by side on a thick and cheap (in a sale) chopping block, as I can carry them easier that way :).

Definately.With the Liang,you could use the metal 6ca7 as a direct replacement for the Chinese input valve.These are cheap as chips,you could get a pair of '40's nos for about a fiver,so I had a good few pairs.Some of these were so microphonic you could hear yourself walking towards the cd player!

[captain]

Whenever I see a thread on sibilance I have always looked with hope for some answers. This is something that has plagued my system with a proportion of my CD/files getting a good dose of it and becoming very distracting to listen to for long periods. This must have been happing for around 4 years and all of my purchases since have been to try and combat this. I used to be into headphone set ups for many years as I was working in restaurants and listened at unsociable hours, with these set up’s I never had a problem. Then about 6 years ago I went down the speaker road as I got out of the cooking trade. My first set up was mid-fi with a Benchmark DAC-1 a 300B amp and some DIY speakers which to my ears were not sibilant at all. Then as the bug hit I started to throw a lot more money at my set up which included up grading components with better circuits and parts my Croft amps for example. The problem started when I sent my pre amp to Glenn for upgrading when I put it back in my system things were OK for a few weeks and then I started hearing sibilance on quite of few of my CD’s that had not been there before. This started really getting to me and sent the pre back to Croft and got it put back to how it was before, when I put it back in my system the sibilance was still there. This really through me but to cut a long story I ended up going to see Amar with my speakers and amps and we set up on the farm were I had a listen to some of the Croft kit. What it seemed to boil down to were the speakers even though previously I had not heard it. The conclusion I also came to at the time was that I started to get into this listing to the kit and not the music syndrome as I had now put in a lot of money and changes into my set up and wanted to hear them (I still think this plays a big part now). Now the years of kit changing and tweaking too much to go into, but basically I was looking for kit that was not so revealing or strident. I think the biggest problem through once you start hearing sibilance you pick up on it very quickly your hearing sort of homes in on it. The best way to describe it is like a ticking clock in a room when you are finding it hard to sleep, once you focus in on it that’s it, block it out as hard as you try it comes a ticking back. I found when I brought new kit may be for a day or so it would be alright then the ticking started again the sibilance was back. I have read on other forums a few people saying the same thing once you hear it you always seem to hear it a statement I did not like reading.

Obviously as this thread mentions the 2 biggest camps on sibilance is it is on the recording or it is the system set up. Up until recently I had to believe it was the recording as if not I would have wasted thousands of the hard owned pounds on a system that in all honesty I was not really that happy with. Seems I was sort of suffering for the hobby my system was so good that it revealed warts and all on every recording including all the bad recording engineers who do not know what they are doing. Do not get me wrong I understand some people do like a system to sound like this and they enjoy it. I even know a dealer whose prime market is CDP and DAC modifications but he sells only one turntable the reason being to him is that it sounds like a good revealing CD player. Just a couple of weeks back though I brought the Helios X5000 from Andr’e as I wanted to start streaming wireless, I have to say this is one of the best sounding transports I have heard it is pretty incredible a real head turner. There was still sibilance but it was not to bad and I could have lived with it the problem was that the Helios is a bit buggy and clunky. The positive thing about it thought was that it made me take streaming a bit more seriously and ended up buying an older Bolder enthusiast digital only modified Squeezebox 3. When I put that in my system Eureka no sibilance well a bit of a natural one but nothing distracting I can now listen to any albums (even Bon Iver For Emma) for hour’s with enjoyment it has really changed the way I feel about my set up and music.

I think at the end of the day there is no answer were sibilance is, yes I do think it is on the recording and yes I also think it is the system nether is wrong nether is right. You just need to get your own balance and maybe waste a loud of money in the mean time. I do think we all hear differently and for different things a lot of people bang on about bass but I have never really given it a thought ( I may do now though), and have always been happy with this aspect of my set up. I think to me unlike a thread on this forum “Fidelity to what? Or what are we tying to achieve with all our expensive gear?” it has been for me in the last few years more what are you trying not to achieve out of your expensive gear...................