Why are CDs digitized from master tapes?

[magiccarpetride]

It seems that majority/most people, given a chance. tend to prefer the sound of LPs to the way CDs and digital files sound. Still, a lot of people are not prepared to make the plunge into the vinyl world, for a number of valid reasons (cost, inconvenience, etc.)

On the other hand, there are a lot of claims that if one were to record a good LP playing on a good turntable, and then turn that recording into a good old 16 bit/44.1 kHz FLAC or AIFF or WAV file (the so-called Red Book format), all the charming qualities of the vinyl playback would be impeccably preserved for posterity. The argument furthermore goes that the reason people don't seem to prefer the CD sound is because CDs tend to present more faithfully the actual sound of the original master tape. When master tape gets converted to an LP, the turntable playback adds all kinds of sexy coloration etc., rendering that playback more seductive to human ears. All that charm is gone when converting the master tape to CDs, because CDs are 'perfect sound forever'. Well, it turns out human ears do not really dig that kind of perfection.

If that's the case, why don't music industry switch to the so-called 'needle drop' production? Meaning, when planning to reissue a classic album, why don't they digitize it by playing the good LP copy on a top flight turntable, and then encode it into the Red Book digital format, and then cut the CDs?

[topoxforddoc]

Alex,

I have 15 IPS 2 track "master" tapes for number of albums inc Sgt Pepper's, Ziggy and Kind of Blue. LP is not as good as the original tape, as it has to be compressed (RIAA) to allow the amplitude of the music in the grooves to fit onto the 12 inch disc. Also, records are played at constant angular velocity (i.e. 33.3 or 45 rpm), which means that the length of grove tracked in one second is much shorter at the inner grooves than at the outer grooves. On the contrary, tape goes across the heads at a constant linear velocity, and the end of the album sounds just as good as the beginning.

If you make a straight unity gain copy of the tape onto CD, the CD also sounds great. The problem is that some engineers will alter the sound, when mastering for digital to take into account the fact that most people listen to music on their phones. The ambient noise level on a train or bus is significant, and so the quiet bits are amplified to make them louder. This reduces the dynamic range of the music, as you can't increaser the signal on the truly loud bits on a digital recording system. Hence a normal digital file or CD can sound compressed.

Charlie

[magiccarpetride]

Alex,

I have 15 IPS 2 track "master" tapes for number of albums inc Sgt Pepper's, Ziggy and Kind of Blue. LP is not as good as the original tape, as it has to be compressed (RIAA) to allow the amplitude of the music in the grooves to fit onto the 12 inch disc. Also, records are played at constant angular velocity (i.e. 33.3 or 45 rpm), which means that the length of grove tracked in one second is much shorter at the inner grooves than at the outer grooves. On the contrary, tape goes across the heads at a constant linear velocity, and the end of the album sounds just as good as the beginning.

If you make a straight unity gain copy of the tape onto CD, the CD also sounds great. The problem is that some engineers will alter the sound, when mastering for digital to take into account the fact that most people listen to music on their phones. The ambient noise level on a train or bus is significant, and so the quiet bits are amplified to make them louder. This reduces the dynamic range of the music, as you can't increaser the signal on the truly loud bits on a digital recording system. Hence a normal digital file or CD can sound compressed.

Charlie

Thanks Charlie. That's good to know. I've never had a chance to listen to original master tapes, so I'm going by the second hand info. There are people who claim that CDs sound closer to the original master tapes than LPs do. Weird to learn that, especially in the light of your description here.

[topoxforddoc]

Thanks Charlie. That's good to know. I've never had a chance to listen to original master tapes, so I'm going by the second hand info. There are people who claim that CDs sound closer to the original master tapes than LPs do. Weird to learn that, especially in the light of your description here.

Some CDs sound excellent and some less so. Same can be said for LPs. It all depends on the mastering engineer, be it a digital file or cutting a lacquer.

[magiccarpetride]

Some CDs sound excellent and some less so. Same can be said for LPs. It all depends on the mastering engineer, be it a digital file or cutting a lacquer.

Totally. I've had my share of unlistenable LPs and unlistenable CDs.

[Macca]

Are you suggesting that there might be a market for vinyl LPs copied onto CD?

Otherwise I don't understand the point of the question. If your master is on tape how can you make a CD (or a vinyl LP for that matter) without 'digitising' it at some point?

[magiccarpetride]

Are you suggesting that there might be a market for vinyl LPs copied onto CD?

Otherwise I don't understand the point of the question. If your master is on tape how can you make a CD (or a vinyl LP for that matter) without 'digitising' it at some point?

There are people who claim to be able to digitize the actual sound of a good turntable playback. The claim is that if you do a 'needle drop' using high quality analog-to-digital chain, once you burn the digital file to CD, no one can detect any difference between the CD playback and the original LP playback.

Assuming that this is true, there could be a market for people who prefer to hear an album the way it sounds on a good turntable, as opposed to the way it may sound on their CD player/digital transport. And because they most likely don't have the money/nerves required to set up a good analog system, they'd gladly buy the CD that gives them an illusion as if they're listening to the five figure analog rig.

[Macca]

So that's a yes to my first question then. Not sure what the situation is in Canada but in UK you couldn't do it legally.

[Paul-H]

I know when CD's Hit the mass market in the 80's there was such a rush to release their back catalogues on CD than many hit the market that where little more than direct from LP to CD copy, needle drop, pop and clicks all included for free. It was not what CD sound was supposed to be, it was sold as free from all those annoying clicks and pops we all look for nowadays ;)

Paul

[Haselsh1]

Mmmm... I have a place in my sound system for both analogue and digital (compact disc) and I also own some albums on both formats because I never quite know how the mood is going to get me. I don't really have a preference for one over the other because I constantly cannot make up my mind so prefer to have both options. I do however find that compact disc sounds a lot cleaner and sharper than vinyl in my system but that vinyl sounds a bit more realistic in my room. Fortunately, I do not really have to choose one over the other. I like it just the way it is but if the record industry started producing CD's mastered from vinyl I would be highly pissed off.

[Macca]

I know when CD's Hit the mass market in the 80's there was such a rush to release their back catalogues on CD than many hit the market that where little more than direct from LP to CD copy, needle drop, pop and clicks all included for free. It was not what CD sound was supposed to be, it was sold as free from all those annoying clicks and pops we all look for nowadays ;)

Paul

That has to be an urban myth. No major label released a CD that was copied from a vinyl record. Have you got any specific examples?

[walpurgis]

That has to be an urban myth. No major label released a CD that was copied from a vinyl record. Have you got any specific examples?

I reckon too. Sounds unlikely.

[magiccarpetride]

Mmmm... I have a place in my sound system for both analogue and digital (compact disc) and I also own some albums on both formats because I never quite know how the mood is going to get me. I don't really have a preference for one over the other because I constantly cannot make up my mind so prefer to have both options. I do however find that compact disc sounds a lot cleaner and sharper than vinyl in my system but that vinyl sounds a bit more realistic in my room. Fortunately, I do not really have to choose one over the other. I like it just the way it is but if the record industry started producing CD's mastered from vinyl I would be highly pissed off.

Why would that piss you off? The situation is not necessarily either/or. The 'needle drop' could be offered as yet another format. Sort of like "also available as a high resolution download, and also as a needle drop download". So you get to pick and choose your favourite format. What's wrong with that?

[magiccarpetride]

That has to be an urban myth. No major label released a CD that was copied from a vinyl record. Have you got any specific examples?

Ryan Adams has released a 'needle drop' download in addition to the regular digitized master tape (i.e. CD). Sounds pretty mainstream to me.

In the more of a 'grey market' arena, I remember receiving a John McLaughlin "Devotion" CD back in the late '90s from a publishing house that wanted me to review the CD on my blog. It was very obvious that the CD was cut from a 'needle drop' source, and from a shockingly bad LP -- lots of pops and clicks etc. Still, it sounded pretty decent. (I may still have that CD lying somewhere in my basement)

[magiccarpetride]

So that's a yes to my first question then. Not sure what the situation is in Canada but in UK you couldn't do it legally.

You couldn't do that legally in any developed country, unless you own the publishing rights of the material you plan to distribute.

[Macca]

Ryan Adams has released a 'needle drop' download in addition to the regular digitized master tape (i.e. CD). Sounds pretty mainstream to me.

)

That's a bit different to suggesting that some early CD releases were needle drops, though. it was a flagship new format - in 1983 discs cost £12 which is about £30 in today's money. If any of them had just been copied off the vinyl I think we would have heard about it.

[Paul-H]

That has to be an urban myth. No major label released a CD that was copied from a vinyl record. Have you got any specific examples?

No urban myth as I personally owned a couple of them, no longer own them though, and my memory is too shot to remember the names, but they did exist I can assure you of that.

Paul

[magiccarpetride]

That has to be an urban myth. No major label released a CD that was copied from a vinyl record. Have you got any specific examples?

http://www.stockfisch-records.de/pages_art/sf12_dmmcd_e.html

[Macca]

http://www.stockfisch-records.de/pages_art/sf12_dmmcd_e.html

That's recent though, Paul was talking about the early days of CD unless I'm mistaken. I've read that a lot of the early releases were not processed in any way, they just dug the master tape out, started it running into the ADC and went for ciggy and a cup of tea so any blemishes the tape had picked up were faithfully transferred. I've got an Issac Hayes CD that has a couple of drop outs on it (not the band).

Maybe someone else recalls the vinyl transfers and what albums they were?

[Haselsh1]

Why would that piss you off? The situation is not necessarily either/or. The 'needle drop' could be offered as yet another format. Sort of like "also available as a high resolution download, and also as a needle drop download". So you get to pick and choose your favourite format. What's wrong with that?

That has to be extremely unlikely.

[Haselsh1]

Yeah, I own a CD of Peter and the Wolf featuring Brian Eno and it has been taken from vinyl.

[paulf-2007]

Alex,

I have 15 IPS 2 track "master" tapes for number of albums inc Sgt Pepper's, Ziggy and Kind of Blue. LP is not as good as the original tape, as it has to be compressed (RIAA) to allow the amplitude of the music in the grooves to fit onto the 12 inch disc. Also, records are played at constant angular velocity (i.e. 33.3 or 45 rpm), which means that the length of grove tracked in one second is much shorter at the inner grooves than at the outer grooves. On the contrary, tape goes across the heads at a constant linear velocity, and the end of the album sounds just as good as the beginning.

If you make a straight unity gain copy of the tape onto CD, the CD also sounds great. The problem is that some engineers will alter the sound, when mastering for digital to take into account the fact that most people listen to music on their phones. The ambient noise level on a train or bus is significant, and so the quiet bits are amplified to make them louder. This reduces the dynamic range of the music, as you can't increaser the signal on the truly loud bits on a digital recording system. Hence a normal digital file or CD can sound compressed.

Charlienail head, end of thread, poetry.