passive pre-amp

[shire]

I have been following with interest the discussions/arguments regarding the merits of passive pre-amps.
SO decided to give it a go to see/hear for myself.
I have a pair of Quad 99 monoblocks which were meant to be sold eventually, thes seemed a fair start.
I did not want to spend lots of cash on the project as the results could potentially be poor.
I looked at offerings from Tisbury, NVA, but settled for the Baldwin P3S (all around £100/130 price range)
Following advise about short connection cables I connected my Marantz 6006 and my Ariston RD 11 Turntable through an Angle Audio reference 2 phono stage.
Was a little worried about my Quad Z2 speakers as they are not the most sensitive units
First up Cd (Raising Sand, Robert Plant/Allison klauss) well well, no noticeable loss of VOLUME, (quarter turn on control) bass or treble, and easily the equal of my Croft integrated
Next the same music on LP, control to 12 o clock for same volume, but sound very very good.
Just one thing of note, he music was fine ,but vocals a little recessed needed to widen speaker position and remove toe in, cured but cannot explain why?
Maybe I was just lucky with the available equipment to hand, and the Quad amps having ample power, but the set up will remain till I have tried other styles of music.

[Macca]

You'll only have a problem with volume if the power amps are very insensitive. If not all you are doing with an active pre is adding more gain you don't need then attenuating it again. Depends on what active pre-amp you were using before, but unless it was a very good one there should be a notable step up in quality of sound, particularly with digital.

Problems I have encountered with some passives are a lack of impact on what should be hard transients, like snares, making them sound too soft; and a perceived lack of bass. The passive may be more sensitive to the interconnects used than an active, too. Keep us posted on how you get on.

[shire]

Thanks for that, I too have a Firebottle MM , I will give it a go with that.
I had previously used the Quad 99 pre, with the Mono's
Just trying to simplify system get rid of multiple power leads, interconnects etc.

[Macca]

Not having to find somewhere to plug it in is one of the unsung advantages of a passive pre ;)

I did a search for the Baldwin passive but the only thing it threw up was this thread.

[shire]

Not having to find somewhere to plug it in is one of the unsung advantages of a passive pre ;)

I did a search for the Baldwin passive but the only thing it threw up was this thread.


http://www.reelaudio.co.uk/PreAmpSetup.shtml

eBay item number:332152789278
http://i824.photobucket.com/albums/zz165/shire1shire/002.jpg (http://s824.photobucket.com/user/shire1shire/media/002.jpg.html)

[Spectral Morn]

There can also be tonal aberrations, thinness in the mid and some leanness and forwardness as a result of the loss in the mid-range.

Everything in a passive pre including system must be matched carefully, everything balanced all the compromises and technical aspects complimentary to each other. So speakers easy to drive and or power amp easily able to drive them with excess power and drive available. The power amp and passive must be technically a good match and all the cabling not change those parameters either by being too long or being an odd spec that changes the compatibility.

Frankly I have yet (please take note of that) to hear a passive pre that didn't cause some issues and as such I prefer currently active pre amps.

Careful matching is the name of the game.

[Macca]

Whereas I have only encountered one instance of passive incompatibility with a power amp despite trying more than a dozen, of many different topologies, valve and solid state. All passives are not equal, though, which may have some bearing on it. Nevertheless I still maintain that using a high-quality passive pre is the most cost-effective way to increase significantly the sound quality of a system, particularly with digital sources.

[rigger67]

I'm stunned by my Tisbury.

I can't imagine ever going back to an active pre- or an integrated ...

[pgarrish]

For me the main thing is short interconnects. Ideally 1m total from source to power amp.

Then you absolutely need sensitive power amps. Old valve amps seem to be ideally suited needing ~1/2V for full output.

And don't worry if you have the dial well over half way for normal listening,

[RothwellAudio]

For me the main thing is short interconnects. Ideally 1m total from source to power amp.

Then you absolutely need sensitive power amps. Old valve amps seem to be ideally suited needing ~1/2V for full output.

And don't worry if you have the dial well over half way for normal listening,

I think people tend to be over-cautious where interconnect length is concerned. Of course, it depends on the impedance of the passive pre, but you can usually get away with more than 1m of interconnects if you need to.
Yes, you're absolutely correct that people shouldn't worry about having the dial over half way for normal listening. Some people get unduly nervous about seeing the volume control set so high, but it's not really a problem at all.

[pgarrish]

I have about 1.5m of cabling and it works fine but shorter is definitely better in my experience. Certainly more than 3m starts to have a detrimental effect in my system

[Macca]

I think people tend to be over-cautious where interconnect length is concerned. Of course, it depends on the impedance of the passive pre, but you can usually get away with more than 1m of interconnects if you need to.
Yes, you're absolutely correct that people shouldn't worry about having the dial over half way for normal listening. Some people get unduly nervous about seeing the volume control set so high, but it's not really a problem at all.

People are used to amps where full output is only half way round the dial and at a quarter the way round it is too loud for any normal room and speakers. Deliberate of course so rubes are fooled into thinking the amp must be really powerful and have loads in reserve.

[RothwellAudio]

People are used to amps where full output is only half way round the dial and at a quarter the way round it is too loud for any normal room and speakers. Deliberate of course so rubes are fooled into thinking the amp must be really powerful and have loads in reserve.

You're absolutely correct. However, I can't complain about it - I've sold literally thousands of pairs of attenuators to people with systems like you describe :D

[Macca]

Yes, I have a set of them myself left over from when I used active pre-amps :) CD player always too much output, or so I thought in my naivety. Get rid of the pointless extra gain stage, problem solved and you can hear what the player is actually doing without all the glare you thought was just the crapness of 'digital'.

[Dauntless]

Get yourself a Schiit Freya and you can have passive, JFet buffer or Tube Gain all in the same box with full remote control.
https://schiit.eu.com/preamps/Schiit-Freya
You can then see which suits your system the best. In my system active tube is best because I use insensitive power amps. My Monarchy Audio SM70Pro needs 1 volt input for full output and my SDS470C class D needs 2 volts. The JFET buffer sounds very good with the Monarchy's and some might prefer this to the active stage.

[Arkless Electronics]

I think people tend to be over-cautious where interconnect length is concerned. Of course, it depends on the impedance of the passive pre, but you can usually get away with more than 1m of interconnects if you need to.
Yes, you're absolutely correct that people shouldn't worry about having the dial over half way for normal listening. Some people get unduly nervous about seeing the volume control set so high, but it's not really a problem at all.

Indeed all sorts of strange ideas abound! A customer just a few days ago wanted the output of a pre increasing as he thought the main amp was "being worked harder" by having the volume control at a higher setting!

Generally 4M or so of coax is fine with a 50K pot or attenuator and even 10M would be fine with a 10K pot

[walpurgis]

I just bought one of these for a giggle. Passive pre-amp with tone controls. I think I can just about stretch to the expense.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/291568723378?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Apparently there is a significant insertion loss and it may well sound awful. Just a bit of fun! :D

[shire]

Get yourself a Schiit Freya and you can have passive, JFet buffer or Tube Gain all in the same box with full remote control.
https://schiit.eu.com/preamps/Schiit-Freya
You can then see which suits your system the best. In my system active tube is best because I use insensitive power amps. My Monarchy Audio SM70Pro needs 1 volt input for full output and my SDS470C class D needs 2 volts. The JFET buffer sounds very good with the Monarchy's and some might prefer this to the active stage.


looks good, but at £700 is a considered purchase, but seems reasonable for what it appears to offer

[Dauntless]

looks good, but at £700 is a considered purchase, but seems reasonable for what it appears to offer

There's also the Saga at much less. It deos without balanced and tube gain but still has remote control. Never used one myself but it had a very positive review in this month's HIFI World. https://schiit.eu.com/preamps/Schiit-Freya

[Dauntless]

There's also the Saga at much less. It deos without balanced and tube gain but still has remote control. Never used one myself but it had a very positive review in this month's HIFI World. https://schiit.eu.com/preamps/Schiit-Freya

Oh schiit!! Try this link:) https://schiit.eu.com/preamps/Saga

[shire]

Oh schiit!! Try this link:) https://schiit.eu.com/preamps/Saga

looks a fair price for the facilities offered, but would like to be rid of as many power supplies as possible, I accept that maybe when I have tried the full passive route, a compromise may be called for,in which case the unit you recomend may be the answer.
cheers for link

[RothwellAudio]

A customer just a few days ago wanted the output of a pre increasing as he thought the main amp was "being worked harder" by having the volume control at a higher setting!

Yep, I've heard that one a few times :scratch:

[shire]

Well Well,spend a weekend with the passive set up, and have to say IMPRESSIVE. From CD, sound as good as i've heard,whatever genre from RyCooder, John Hiat, to guitars from Chet Atkins/Les Paul, totaly silent no background smear and no sibilance. Deep wide soundstage;

From LP, with both the Angle Audio and Firebottle phono stages,the sound was a little disappointing, instruments fine , sharp and clear, but voices a little recessed, a bit like being out of phase or mono.
I eventually sorted this by moving the speakers 3 feet further apart, and everything opened up, like a totally different system, I have never heard Primal scream(screamadelica) sound so good, totally filled the room.
tested treble with Tull, Songs from the wood, superb.
Anyway a convert to Passive, it stays as is