Logic Tempo/Datum Turntable query

[minnie0093]

My separate music system, currently MF A3.5 CD (impulse buy, and well pleased), Trends 10.1 t-amp, Royd A7 speakers (bought from new approx 1982). I have ordered a NVA pre/power amp which should arrive next week.

I also have the said turntable, complete with AT95 cartridge, which has lay unused for a number of years, I do have a large collection of vinyl and want to enjoy it all again.

Whatever I do I will have to purchase a suitable phono stage, do I go NVA, Cambridge or ???.

Options
1. Stick turntable in and give it a go. What should I check so I do not do any damage to bearings etc?

2. Sell turntable and buy Project, Rega or ?

I am leaning towards Option 1 as from what I can remember the Logic sounded pretty good, that was through Naim amps and SBL's, I do have a history of Linn/Naim flat earth tendencies but do not want to go to those lengths again.

I am going to keep the Royd's at least until the turntable is sorted and see how it sounds, but any suggestions accepted.

Any help most appreciated.

S

[pure sound]

I'd recommend the Cambridge phono stage & possibly later a more civilised sounding cartridge. The turntable and arm were pretty good iirc.

[Marco]

Hi Susan,

A warm welcome to you our second (as far as I know!) lady member :)

In my opinion you have a very good turntable, which with a few judicious tweaks, will be better than any Project or Rega. Modern T/Ts, certainly in the budget to mid sector of the market, just aren't as well engineered as classic decks like your Logic, and solid engineering is a very important part of turntable design.

So I would stick with what you've got as you have a good foundation there already, and then look to get the most out of it. This discussion on Audiogon should give you some pointers:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1083813501&openflup&5&4#5

Since you've ordered NVA amps, which I'm sure will be excellent, my advice would be to go for the matching phono stage as it will have been designed with the amps in mind and therefore both should form a synergistic partnership. If you fancy something different then there are a number of excellent phono stages on the market, not least the one Guy (Puresound) has in his avatar!

I agree with him that the AT cartridge is the weakest link in your system so I would advise on an upgrade in that area as a priority. If you give me an idea of your budget I would be happy to offer you some appropriate recommendations.

Marco.

[Nick]

Hi Susan,

Welcome to the forum :)

I can at least comment on 50% of your question. Way back in the day my first really serious little turntable was a Systemdek and to avoid the ubiquitous Linn Basik (yuck) I invested in the Logic Datum arm. It was a great little arm pretty rugged and also good sounding. I went through a fair range of various cartridges on it and it never missed a beat. I'd keep it and give it a go if I was you.

I even kept it for a while on my next turntable, a lovely Pink Triangle, until I was lured to the darkside with a Voyd Ref/Helius Cyalene/Audionote IO :)

The Logic deck, if memory serves me correctly, was well rated against others in it's day with some touting it as one of the best.

Cheers

Nick

[Lily Munster]

Hi Susan,
nice to have another girl around so welcome to the forum :)

Lily.

[minnie0093]

Lily

Thanks for the welcome.

I have been doing some reading which suggests that the Denon DL110 may be a suitable choice as a cartridge.

I will need some aids in setting up/aligning whatever choice I go for, any suggestions?

I chose the NVA amps partly because they do not have any dealers and partly through research and I nearly bought some many moons ago.

Lily, you must have some tales of going into a dealer and being so patronised!

I will let you know how things go.

[Lily Munster]

Hi Susan,
Yes a hairy man called Ken Kessler was being rather patronising to women during a talk at a hi-fi show in London where I was with my husband, he obviously thought he was safe in a room full of men, and when he saw little me near the front row I just glared at him and he stuttered and quickly changed the subject!!

Lily.

[Filterlab]

Yes a hairy man called Ken Kessler was being rather patronising to women....

That doesn't surprise me at all. I went to the Scottish hi-fi show last year with a woman (Sam) who was seriously into hi-fi and had a lot of knowledge and a fine fine system. I could almost feel the 'what are you doing here?' aura floating in the air, that was until she asked some very intelligent questions and also undertook the most ballsy blind listening test I've ever seen. :)

Top girl, knocked them for six. :lol:

It's a shame in this day and age that sexism exists in a hobby that's open to everyone, shame on you Mr Kessler. I'll be writing to Hi-Fi Choice magazine this weekend to report your comments.

[Marco]

Hi Susan,

Sorry for the delayed reply!


I have been doing some reading which suggests that the Denon DL110 may be a suitable choice as a cartridge.


Yes the DL-110 is an excellent cartridge, and like all Denons superb value for money. However it's a high output MC - is there any reason for you needing to go down that route, for example, is the phono stage you're going to get MM only?

If you're going for an NVA stage to match your amps I would get Richard to design one with an active MC stage and use it with a low output MC cartridge such as the Denon DL-103 or, say, an Audio Technica OC-9 or an Ortofon Salsa, or one of the entry level Dynavectors, depending on the type of sound you prefer. High output MCs in my opinion are compromised and lack the 'magic' and finesse, and certainly the 'sweetness' of quality low output designs. It's up to you, though, and I can advise further if you wish :)


I will need some aids in setting up/aligning whatever choice I go for, any suggestions?


There are a number of alignment protractors on the market. Clearaudio make a good one, as do Russ Andrews and numerous other manufacturers, and there's the Dr Feickert, which is an altogether more elaborate and expensive affair, but if it's ultimate accuracy you're after then there is no finer tool for the job. With regard to any other aspect of cartridge setting up I will be happy to assist if necessary when you've chosen the cartridge you want - indeed if bought new from a dealer ask him to set it up for you and earn his money! ;)


I chose the NVA amps partly because they do not have any dealers and partly through research and I nearly bought some many moons ago.


Nice one. They are undoubtedly fine amps and have somewhat of a cult following. A few of the guys here use them, although I have no direct experience of them myself.

I hope this helps, and if you have any other queries don't hesitate to ask.

Marco.

[minnie0093]

Thanks Marco

I have managed to pick up a Cambridge 640p phono stage to use for the time being. I will keep on the lookout for a NVA unit as well.

I have already ordered the DL-110 and a Van den Hul alignment gauge. Just heard DL110 is out of stock, so will explore your alternatives, I lean to Rock based music but also anything except modern R&B and 'pop'!

Hopefully everything will arrive this week and I can spend some time getting things together.

I will report back when I have things together and have had the chance of an extended play.

S

[Marco]

Hi Susan,

That's excellent.

Before I make some appropriate recommendations, what's your budget - up to the level of the DL-110 or can you go a bit more than that?

And also, what type of sound do you like? I won't ask in terms of 'musicality' because that's hard to define with someone I don't know, but in terms of tonality do you prefer cartridges with generally a 'warmer', 'weightier' or 'brighter', 'lighter' tonal balance?

Also, where did you try ordering your cartridge from?

Cheers,
Marco.

[minnie0093]

Thanks for your advice/suggestions.

£100ish.

What are the musical characteristics of the cartridges you have suggested?

I think that I want something as 'neutral' as possible or adds as little of its own character.

Hifix is the only place I have tried so far.

S

[Marco]

Susan, in that case I think you should stick to the DL-110. It's ideal for your needs and will work really well with the 640p.

Try and order one here:

http://www.harrowaudiohifi.co.uk/viewitem.asp?MyID=&StockCode=h91de100

Marco.

[minnie0093]

Marco

Thanks once again.

I will phone tomorrow and see if I can get one.

I will post and let you know how things go, my amps should arrive tomorrow so I have some tidying up to do.

I will take some photos as well.

S

[Marco]

Sounds good. I look forward to seeing the pics :)

You do know that you can order one via the website? I've dealt with Harrow before - generally everything they show is in stock and they despatch your order next day by First Class post. They're very quick and efficient.

If in the unlikely event they're also out of stock of the DL-110, try here:

https://shop.mantra-audio.co.uk/acatalog/Denon_Cartridges.html

They're also excellent to deal with.

Marco.

[minnie0093]

Ordered online from Harrow Audio.

Confirmation e-mail received, so all appendages crossed!

thanks

S

[Marco]

Nice one, Susan. You'll have it before the weekend :)

Let us know how you get on with the 110 and if you need any advice on setting it up.

Marco.

[Marco]

Hi Susan,

Did you get your DL-110? You've gone very quiet. Perhaps you're too busy listening to music... :)

Marco.

[minnie0093]

Sorry Marco

Yes been entranced!

110 arrived, set up reasonably easily, found the original alignment tool supplied with the arm, actually an 'S' type (if that makes any difference).

Been working my way through my vinyl with the odd CD as well. Fantastic, Outstanding, I can not attempt to quantify the improvements but it is magical, I will take some photos as soon as.

Got itchy fingers though, something Richard suggested (sort of!), bought a pair of Castle Durham speakers that can be bi-amped, so have also bought another power amp from NVA (and cables).

My hands were shaking setting up the Denon, how do you go on when you have something costing 25x more?

The Castles are a stop gap for the time being, I shall keep my eyes and ears open for alternatives, if anyone has any possible suggestions!! Once that is sorted I think I shall sit back and enjoy for some time.

Once again, many thanks.

[Marco]

Hi Susan,

You're welcome. I'm glad the Denon has worked out well. Enjoy the music, and I look forward to seeing some photos in due course :smoking:

Marco.

[minnie0093]

Marco

Bought a pair of Leema Xeros. WOW!!!

They are tiny but sound fantastic and I know will get better when run in. They can also be bi-amped, additional power amp will not arrive until end of next week but it sounds so good now that I do not mind the wait.

I have also ordered a pair of super dreadnoughts which also will not arrive until next week so they are plonked on some sound orgish stands.

I have taken some photos see below.

Many thanks for your help and advice.

Susan

http://img1.PutPic.com/images/thumb/5/14317533828.jpg (http://www.PutPic.com/image/11878/4403679) http://img1.PutPic.com/images/thumb/5/14317534099.jpg (http://www.PutPic.com/image/11879/4403679) http://img1.PutPic.com/images/thumb/5/14317534149.jpg (http://www.PutPic.com/image/11880/4403679) http://img1.PutPic.com/images/thumb/5/14317534392.jpg (http://www.PutPic.com/image/11881/4403679)

[Marco]

Hi Susan,

Glad you're enjoying the Leemas and the DL-110. You seem to have got it going along nicely. No problem with the advice - that's what we're here for :)

Enjoy your tunes!

Marco.

[Filterlab]

Leema are really making a name for themselves these days, particularly with their new CD players.

Glad you like the Zeros Susan. Next thing to add is a Tri-Vista 21 DAC - really perks up the A3.5CD. ;)

[minnie0093]

I have a 'Citypulse 7.2' DAC in a box somewhere.

Any point in giving that a try?

[Filterlab]

I have a 'Citypulse 7.2' DAC in a box somewhere.

Any point in giving that a try?

Yeah! I've never heard of it but you just never know, it could make all the difference. The weakest point on the A3.5 is the clock so it may make all the difference.

It never hurts to experiment, unless you're in prison and your cellmate is named 'Olaf the Cucumber'. :(

[Filterlab]

Actually, I've just looked up the Citypulse 7.2, seems like a nice DAC. Definitely give it a whirl and post your results!

Information on the Citypulse 7.2 (http://www.audio-magus.com/PhotoGallery.asp?ProductCode=cpda72xv2)

[minnie0093]

Will give it a try.

Will have to get a new optical link as gave my spare to next doors lad for his ps3!

Been having a mooch around the various topics on here, glad to note a number of fellow 'Cat Appreciation Society' members. I share a house with my sister and we provide accommodation to a total of 7 rescue cats. Will post some pics, 1 of them (Yes you Minnie!) has taken to sleeping on my turntable cover!

S

[Marco]

Yeah, Susan. Cats are cool. We have three rescue cats, one of which, 'Jet' is lying beside me as I type this :)

Let's see some pics of your moggies!

Marco.

[Filterlab]

Will give it a try.

Will have to get a new optical link as gave my spare to next doors lad for his ps3!

You could always use a spare interconnect and connect the DAC via coaxial.

Should work ok with a normal interconnect, even better with a digital interconnect. :)

[minnie0093]

Found the DAC.

The NVA power amps also arrived this week so spent most of this afternoon wiring thing together.

First impressions, through the CD, are more of everything, in a very good enjoyable way.

I will try out some vinyl next.

Pictures will be posted shortly of cats and hi-fi.

Susan

[Rare Bird]

http://img1.PutPic.com/images/thumb/5/14317534392.jpg (http://www.PutPic.com/image/11881/4403679)

Hi Susan
Only just noticed this. I'm puzzled by your topic opener as that doesnt look like a Logic 'Tempo'! It is a 'Datum II' arm tho

[pure sound]

Indeed early Tempo's had a glass platter. The 2 motor Gemini had a black moulded 1" thick platter and I'm wondering if they also used that on later Tempo's (Tempi?)

[Rare Bird]

Indeed early Tempo's had a glass platter. The 2 motor Gemini had a black moulded 1" thick platter and I'm wondering if they also used that on later Tempo's (Tempi?)

What puzzled me Guy, i can't even see the alloy Armboard dish!!. the 'C1' also had that platter aswell as the 'Gemini' but the 'C1' was more like a rega plinth..Looks like the twin motor 'Gemini' to me..

'Tempo' below

[pure sound]

If it is a Gemini its a rare beast.

Any chance of more pics of the deck & perhaps one with the platter removed?

[Rare Bird]

If it is a Gemini its a rare beast.

Any chance of more pics of the deck & perhaps one with the platter removed?

what of the 'Gemini' (I think) of susans or the 'Tempo' above of mine Guy?

I had a 'Gemini' last year with 'Datum S' can tell you the 'Gemini' had two airpax motors one at the front, one at the back. the platter has it's sub platter all moulded in one.. simular to the Logic 'C1'...

[pure sound]

I was close(ish) to the Gemini as it came about (doing the Voyd at the same time) so am quite familiar with what it involved. There were issues with using those airpax motors and particularly with putting one near to the arc the cartridge travelled through.

The pictured deck has its speed controls over to the left. All the Tempos had controls centre right so I don't think it is a Tempo. I only vaguely remember the C1 but would be surprised if it had electronic speed control.

I'd like to see the plinth & motor(s) under the platter. That platter was a neat thing. I wonder what became of the tooling for it.

Logic were struggling by the time they launched the Gemini (85/86) I don't think they realised the potential of the design fully.