View Full Version : Oil Change
Haselsh1
15-03-2017, 13:59
Look, I know that Nottingham Analogue market the stuff at around thirty quid for a few mills but thirty quid could buy me five litres of engine oil. Are Nottingham Analogue just taking the piss...? I am currently using sewing machine oil which I don't think is viscous enough. Does anyone have any thoughts...?
Look, I know that Nottingham Analogue market the stuff at around thirty quid for a few mills but thirty quid could buy me five litres of engine oil. Are Nottingham Analogue just taking the piss...? I am currently using sewing machine oil which I don't think is viscous enough. Does anyone have any thoughts...?
Yep that is taking the piss.
Try this stuff, I use it on my VPI bearing and it works very well indeed.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Origin-Turntable-Bearing-Sufficient-refills/dp/B007Y3Y0B6
I have some of the Audio Origami stuff. The kit has everything you need and enough oil for at least two changes.
blackstar
15-03-2017, 15:05
Have you spoken to NAS direct? They are not in the business of taking the piss, and are the most helpful company I have dealt with in ages. Speak to Penny and she'll no doubt sort you out at a lot cheaper than the hi-fi shops.
From reading various threads on oiling TTs, not all oil is equal. Some use sewing machine oil and others use heavier grade oils, and they do make a difference for one reason or another.
hifi_dave
15-03-2017, 15:10
Oils make a big difference to the performance of a decent turntable. The Notts turntables use a combination of different oils to get the performance the way they like it and no, it's not sewing machine oil but a lot thicker.
Have you spoken to NAS direct? They are not in the business of taking the piss, and are the most helpful company I have dealt with in ages. Speak to Penny and she'll no doubt sort you out at a lot cheaper than the hi-fi shops.
From reading various threads on oiling TTs, not all oil is equal. Some use sewing machine oil and others use heavier grade oils, and they do make a difference for one reason or another.
So £1000 per litre is reasonable for oil??
blackstar
15-03-2017, 16:07
So £1000 per litre is reasonable for oil??
No, but i am pretty sure the OP hasn't asked NAS direct, rather a hifi shop which adds a pretty sizeable mark up.
Also, I'm sure 1L of oil would last every NAS user into the year 2400.
Aethelred
15-03-2017, 17:06
I am mixing oils to have proper (according to me) viscosity. It took me some time to get proportions right. I'm using ptfe oils . The ones i was able to find at the local store were either to thick or too thin. Tw raven turntable so oil is just spread over the bearing not poured inside. Also cleaning bearing and gentle polish every oil change. Normally every 6 months. The stuff i use cost like 9 eur per can and i am using this for other issues like squicky stairs. The second one more fancy and very thin. If for turntable only i think it will last longer than expiration date :) i think with all bearings when new and tolerances are very high you shoul use thin oil later you need to provide thicker layer as bearing shaft is slightly deteriorating. As long as it sounds right i am not too crazy about it.
Haselsh1
15-03-2017, 18:07
OK guys, thank's for your input. I have changed the sewing machine oil to an expensive engine oil and things are so far much better. There is no drag with the higher viscosity, the platter settling and rotating just fine. In fact, the whole rotation of the platter just appears better and quieter. Haven't listened for any sonics yet.
Haselsh1
15-03-2017, 18:09
These days I don't hold Nottingham Analogue with the same high regard I used to when Tom Fletcher was at the helm so no, I haven't contacted N/A.
out of interest what grade oil?
Haselsh1
15-03-2017, 18:23
Jamie, it is a pretty standard 15W-40 grade of oil that is recommended for engines with average wear and tear. It apparently has quite a few additives though to cut down on further wear.
cool,i like your way of thinking :)
walpurgis
15-03-2017, 18:40
I find engine oil too thin and use EP80/90 gear oil with a drop of STP. Have done for forty years with no issues.
I find engine oil too thin and use EP80/90 gear oil with a drop of STP. Have done for forty years with no issues.
Bet that's cheaper than £1000/Ltr!:)
I find engine oil too thin and use EP80/90 gear oil with a drop of STP. Have done for forty years with no issues.
in what way do you mean too thin geoff?
walpurgis
15-03-2017, 18:59
I like an oil that has the thickness (viscosity) to keep a film all around the bearing even when the spindle is not rotating. Lets face it, unless you use oil so thick as to cause excessive drag, surely the thicker the better?
yep i take your point,i just keep thinking though that surely if an oil designed to lubricate a cars big end shells then thats gotta be more than adequate for a turntables bearing and sleeve?
Obviously, car has an oil pump that makes the oil circulate under pressure.
Choosing the right grade and quality of oil for a turntable bearing could be tricky. Then think about the anti-soot additives etc. and you may be better of getting the (most likely) single grade oil specified for the job.
Gearbox oil does sound like a much better proposition.
walpurgis
15-03-2017, 19:20
I have no figures, but as big ends have a far greater surface area to a TT main bearing, I'd not be surprised if the loading per area is not very different, although the forces in a TT bearing can be angular to the axis.
Obviously, car has an oil pump that makes the oil circulate under pressure.
it has to because the oil sits in the sump,oil does not defy gravity:D
Not all the oil sits in the sump. The galleries etc. are normally still relatively full.
It won't climb up your bearing either.
The point is that engine oil works best in a pressurised environment, which your bearing isn't.
Rothchild
15-03-2017, 20:00
Typically I can't find it now, but there is a thread 'out there, on't internet' where OP catalogues all the turntables and oils they use (+ often in relation to which engine/gearbox oil will work as per that supplied in the deck originally) I'll keep looking.
walpurgis
15-03-2017, 20:00
The point is that engine oil works best in a pressurised environment, which your bearing isn't.
It is to an extent. There is no bearing that runs exactly concentrically, meaning that small localised 'waves' of pressure will be created in the lubricant as parts rotate.
Stryder5
15-03-2017, 20:08
Not all the oil sits in the sump. The galleries etc. are normally still relatively full.
It won't climb up your bearing either.
The point is that engine oil works best in a pressurised environment, which your bearing isn't.
Is there no pressure in a turntable bearing?
The oil in a combustion engine has multiple functions, lubrication, cooling and as cushioning film against the hammering effect of the explosions in the combustion chamber that is transferred by accompanying metal components. Not a complete list of functions by any means, but it will do for now.
To say engine oil works best in it's designed environment may be true, but that doesn't proclude other uses.
this is what i do when i find myself thinking too much about my turntable and shall i use 3 in 1 or shall i use ep80 or what about that oil thats £20 for 3 cc's???????
take a step back and repeat after me......its only a bloody record player!!!!
:lol:
walpurgis
15-03-2017, 20:20
i wonder what an engineer would suggest ?
Thought I had. I worked in various forms of engineering all my life.
When will we get to the viscosity of multigrade oils at room temperature bit.... :scratch:
walpurgis
15-03-2017, 21:23
When will we get to the viscosity of multigrade oils at room temperature bit.... :scratch:
You could go into ageing characteristics and oxidation effects too while you're at it.
Not to forget the anti-foaming...
What oil do you use in yours then ?
I have some of the Audio Origami stuff. The kit has everything you need and enough oil for at least two changes.
Audio Origami PTFE booster. They do a thick versions as well. Details on the AO website
Cycleallday
16-03-2017, 08:45
Oil threads always seem to generate loads of comments and most seem to be around engine or gearbox oils - probably as they are cheap and readily available.
Most oil companies have identified the many uses to which oil is put and have a solution for it without any further mixing work by ourselves and they don't cost £1000's per litre like the small files supplied by HiFi dealers.
However, don't forget such dealers don't sell a great deal of oil and need a profit from it. Most of us think nothing about spending £100's on bits of goo and cheap (to make) metal spikes for our systems so why moan about a much smaller amount for oil which is much more critical to our expensive decks.
However, for the more frugal amongst us why not consider the actual design and use to which the oil is put. I think Cagey may have mentioned the word 'spindle' in an earlier post and that possibly gives a clue to the oil type needed. Engineering shops have many machines with revolving spindles and the oil companies have many grades which are a better bet than motor oils. Try looking at something like Mobil Velocite oil probably No6 ? - I have a feeling it is a common oil found in small files which are sold for a lot of money. The main thing is to ensure the additives do not affect the plastic bits (Peek, etc) found in some bearings. The spindle oil is also cheap to but and not difficult to find.
Mel
Haselsh1
16-03-2017, 12:44
Given the UK retail markup of halving it and adding VAT, your five mills of oil is actually worth less than fifteen quid plus a little bit of VAT. Now I don't know about you but even fifteen quid is shite steep for five mills of mineral oil. Had it been highly expensive synthetic oil we would be nearer the mark. I used to pay out a bloody fortune for synthetic oil for my Ducati's but I as sure as hell am not doing it for a bloody turntable. As the man has already stated, it's only a bloody turntable and a secondhand one at that...!
blackstar
16-03-2017, 13:12
Given the UK retail markup of halving it and adding VAT, your five mills of oil is actually worth less than fifteen quid plus a little bit of VAT. Now I don't know about you but even fifteen quid is shite steep for five mills of mineral oil. Had it been highly expensive synthetic oil we would be nearer the mark. I used to pay out a bloody fortune for synthetic oil for my Ducati's but I as sure as hell am not doing it for a bloody turntable. As the man has already stated, it's only a bloody turntable and a secondhand one at that...!
You could say it's only a bike.
Yep but it's under a damn site more stress than a piddley bear bearing is it not?
blackstar
16-03-2017, 13:27
So motor oil must be brilliant in a TT then? It's a little more complicated than that.
Haselsh1
16-03-2017, 13:35
You could say it's only a bike.
You could indeed but thirteen grands worth of bike does not tally the same as one grands worth of turntable.
Haselsh1
16-03-2017, 13:36
So motor oil must be brilliant in a TT then? It's a little more complicated than that.
I agree, motor oil is pure overkill in a turntable.
Haselsh1
16-03-2017, 13:38
Yep but it's under a damn site more stress than a piddley bear bearing is it not?
Ducati engines rev to around seven and a half thousand rpm. Slightly different to your average turntable no doubt ;)
blackstar
16-03-2017, 14:01
Well, one oil must promote minimal to no drag and remove any opportunity for metal on metal contact - especially in soft metals - and the other must retain it's cooling and lubricating properties over a wide spectrum of temperatures and pressures, taking into account movement and expansion/contraction of multiple moving parts. Putting the wrong oil in one can be as potentially damaging as the other; the value of the bike is neither here nor there.
Not sure why you are getting so excited about the whole thing....the function of oil in one is totally different to the other. Use the right oil or the wrong oil and either win or lose....it's only a grands worth of turntable after all.
Look, I know that Nottingham Analogue market the stuff at around thirty quid for a few mills but thirty quid could buy me five litres of engine oil. Are Nottingham Analogue just taking the piss...? I am currently using sewing machine oil which I don't think is viscous enough. Does anyone have any thoughts...?
Had a thought Shaun. Ask them exactly what the oil is? After all you would not bung oil in your car or gearbox without knowing what it was.:)
You may find that they do not want to divulge the details.
Origin Live would not tell me what the oil was they were selling.
Haselsh1
16-03-2017, 15:41
So, back to the original point. For what these turntable manufacturers are charging us, are they taking the piss...? I get the impression they are and I also get the impression that not a massive amount of thought and laboratory work has gone into the formulation.
blackstar
16-03-2017, 16:14
Had a thought Shaun. Ask them exactly what the oil is? After all you would not bung oil in your car or gearbox without knowing what it was.:)
I totally agree. You might be surprised; they might just say...
Worth a try....? You might find they don't know what it is either which would be more worrying!
I have a bottle of the Original Nottingham Analouge oil which came with my Interspace if you would like to try it? It's going to last me years anyway so I'm more than happy to send it to you so you can test against the other oils?
Send me a PM of your address and I'll pop it in the post tomorrow afternoon.
Haselsh1
16-03-2017, 16:46
Nathan, you have a PM
Haselsh1
16-03-2017, 16:47
Worth a try....? You might find they don't know what it is either which would be more worrying!
;)
hifi_dave
16-03-2017, 17:26
Many, many years ago, I spent the best part of a day with Tom Fletcher (The Nottingham Analogue designer) trying various oils and combinations of oils in Nottingham Analogue turntables. This was a right PITA as the bearings needed to be sucked dry and wiped out before a different oil could be poured in. As anyone who owns a Notts TT will confirm, the platter takes anything up to 30 minutes to sink back down once separated from the bearing, so it's a time consuming job. The oil favoured by all listeners was the one used and supplied from then on by Nottingham Analogue but I have no idea of the composition.
what do you make of this?
my pioneer has a sticker that says,use no more than 3 drops of oil.
there is a small hole next to the spindle in the housing,the oil is suposed to then flow through the housing down the spindle and lube the shaft and then the ball bearing at the bottom.
going by the makers instructions there's very little oil needed on my turntable??
Just been reading an article by a well known US Audiophile and he uses this oil on his turntable. Its called Anderol 465
https://www.amazon.com/Anderol-Synthetic-Bearing-Blowers-Motors/dp/B06WP3VDCD
Haselsh1
28-03-2017, 12:29
Hmmm... 20 USD for 1.7 US ounces. I rest my case.
It's £100 for 5 litres in the UK.
Do you need 5 litres?
You can use it in your mower as well! :lol:
I use engine oil in my mower. It's a 430cc V-twin producing a whopping 15HP @ 3,600 rpm. Anderol 465 is totally inappropriate. ;)
I use engine oil in my mower. It's a 430cc V-twin producing a whopping 15HP @ 3,600 rpm. Anderol 465 is totally inappropriate. ;)
Your probably right Kev, might not be heavy enough for engine but great for cables , bearings etc,
Your probably right Kev, might not be heavy enough for engine but great for cables , bearings etc,
? Did you mean Bowden cables or electrical cables?
? Did you mean Bowden cables or electrical cables?
I had to look that up Barry, Bowden cables.
ive just bought this to try http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/172593797962?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Van-Den-Hul-Special-Turntable-Spindle-Oil-/172239899085?hash=item281a4c49cd:g:3SQAAOSwvg9XXpm b
and its got marbles in it!!
Hey,
I have an Interspace in moth balls that I used happily for many years in the 90s and 00s.
I plan to boot it up again tomorrow when some VDC arrives for the rest of my system.
Anyway, back in the 90s I called Tom Fletcher and he sent me free of charge some of his oil which TBH I didn't like the sound of. It seemed to make the TT sound very thin.
Steve at Audio Consultants in Camden who was a huge supplier and fan of NA TT turned me onto Loctite Superlube which he used in the Hyperspace TT he sold. Its a PTFE based oil with quite a thick viscosity but my god did it sound good. It gave the sounds so much body and depth compared to the NA oil.
Here's an Amazon link but I recently bought some far cheaper on ebay.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Loctite-2105021-Super-Precision-Oiler/dp/B014JIP5YE
And yes £30 for splash of oil is a joke!
blackstar
04-05-2017, 18:23
http://cpc.farnell.com/loctite/2105021/super-lube-precision-oiler/dp/SASLPO
£8 odd for a few changes seems good
Minstrel SE
11-05-2017, 14:09
Yes the market for specialist oils does seem very cheeky in some areas and thats putting it mildly.
I know oil is vital but the specification bores me. I future I just want 5ml or 10ml of the oil the manufacturer uses at a reasonable price.
It was a bit of a challenge sorting oil to replace Dual Renotac 342. I ended up with a Mannol Chainsaw oil because it needed some surface coating abilities in a sleeve bearing. £5 for 1 litre so Ive got loads of the stuff
Ive tried sewing machine oil and my dads specialist oil collection. I tried oil marketed for Rega turntables. Ive never seen a spindle spin so fast in a bath of sewing machine oil (holding the bearing housing and subpatter in my hand) but its not the right oil for most applications and certainly not a sleeve bearing with no ballbearing base.
My eyes glaze over at talk of 10w 30 etc. In future its something I want the bearing manufacturer to have specified for me
Obviously one day I would like a Sondek style bearing or magnetic float bearing when my lottery comes up
Hi when i was a GYRO owner there were endless discussions on the Michell forums regarding oil, bot the general consensus, and also the one i found best, was Automatic transmission fluid. But as I seem to remember the bearing spindle on the Gyro had a spiral groove which returned/circulated the oil to the top.
Does the Systemdek have similar i have heard?
Another Goose chase? Over the decades I've fitted a few 'different' oil types to my pore long suffering Thorens spindle bearing well.
All predicated by some Audio Guru (Goof.. by my current estimations;_0 From Phils' tenacious oil (hypoid oil sans the hypoid/supher) Atf ,
Synths and Dino oils and of course sewing machine oil.
All with NO audible differences.. period
Honestly the only differences found were in the duration of retained 'spin' in the platter when powered down.
It varied by ~20 seconds betwixt the Molasses(phils') and the watery Sewing machine stuff.
Never has my platter rotated for the full 90 seconds that ALL internet babbles suggested a healthy one should.
I've had this TT from new consequently knowing it's entire history in detail.
Misdirection? Komplete BS? who knows. Only observable fact is; it ain't true.
Often depressing to realise just how gullible we can be.
I've looked into oil for turntables a great deal and the requirements are fundamentally different than lubrication for combustion engines (for example). My conclusion is that viscosity (a very rarely considered property by TT oil providers) is the primary factor of relevance - the more viscous the better before tearing or delamination occurs*.
The amount of time a platter will spin when unpowered is entirely irrelevant and is no guide whatsoever as to the value of an oil for a TT.
* This depends on the diameter of the bearing, the tolerance gap between shaft and journal, the finish of shaft and journal and, partially, the inner design of the journal.
Agree entirely on Spool down time as silly.
Merely saying that it seems a Major tennant of Thorens TT Open Mouth sites.
Did find that the Phils' Tenacious Oil ( ~100? w) was of some drag on the platter.
Not much but decidedly noticeable in spool up and down times.
Hopefully it caused no harm as I had it in use for ~15 years.
IF an aficionado of High viscosity /cling like glue to surfaces lube ..then Mechanics' Assembly Lube oil might be of interest
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