Advise please: phono stage?

[Colinijohnson]

Please offer me some advise- I recently had my sme 3009 arm re-wired & serviced by SME, and fitted a nagoaka 150 cartridge. I also bought a project s preamp, which has had probably 20 hours use now. Rest of system = chord cables, Cyrus 7 amp & martin Logan motion 15 speakers.
When I stream music via my dragonfly, the music sounds great - but via the new vinyl set up, vocals and treble appear very dull. Bass and lower end soundstage is great - but I suspect the phono stage is letting me down - or am I missing a trick here? Could someone please recommend me a phono amp that would be appropriate for my level of system or advise what might be the issue?
I usually play 70's/80's rock
Thanks
Colin


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[willbewill]

Have you double checked your setup especially SRA/VTA (Stylus Rake Angle/Vertical Tracking Angle) and VTF (vertical Tracking Force). Nagaokas, in my experience, tend to like the upper end of the scale which, in this case I think is 2gms. Also do you know the capacitance of your cable and phono stage - they might be loading the cart wrong.

[struth]

If set up is ok then either the phono stage or cart may not be right. Cables too could have an effect. Its all very difficult to say from a distance, if you dont have replacements to try.
I,d be inclined to re try the setting up and as said go close to top weight specified. Making sure with a bubble that headshell is right and cart is at right angle. Getting any of those wrong can have odd effects. Also see if you can borrow a phono stage.. maybe have a local bake off or go to one and take your stage.

[Stryder5]

It would help to know which turntable and what cartridge/phono stage you had before to compare it to?

VTA and VTF as above.

At 20 hrs you are probably not near to run in time probably?

[willbewill]

Regarding the capacitance, I think your phono stage allows you to change it so...start with it set to 100pF (which I suspect it is now?) and then move up the settings, it should get brighter with each change eventually creeping to harshness, select the best setting to your ears.

Also I assume MM is selected and not MC?

Is Load impedance set for 47k Ohms?

You might also want to play with the gain settings.

[Arkless Electronics]

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?49403-Arkless-640P-MC-MM-phono-loan-list

In a completely different class to any other budget phono stage (google it for reviews to back up this statement) and all are welcome to try it at home.

[Colinijohnson]

Regarding the capacitance, I think your phono stage allows you to change it so...start with it set to 100pF (which I suspect it is now?) and then move up the settings, it should get brighter with each change eventually creeping to harshness, select the best setting to your ears.

Also I assume MM is selected and not MC?

Is Load impedance set for 47k Ohms?

You might also want to play with the gain settings.



https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170309/9cb1315a0657b228ae7d11cfc5175f53.jpg

Hi - I've attached a pic hopefully of the settings- I paid the guys in O'Brien Hi Fi to fit the cartridge, so hopefully they set it up ok!?


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[Colinijohnson]

It would help to know which turntable and what cartridge/phono stage you had before to compare it to?

VTA and VTF as above.

At 20 hrs you are probably not near to run in time probably?

I hadn't used the deck for years, so I can only compare with streaming lossless files -


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[WAD62]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170309/9cb1315a0657b228ae7d11cfc5175f53.jpg

Hi - I've attached a pic hopefully of the settings- I paid the guys in O'Brien Hi Fi to fit the cartridge, so hopefully they set it up ok!?


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I have a Tube Box S, and I couldn't be happier with it...

What type of cartridge is yours MM or MC, or high output MC?

I just set mine to the default example provided in the manual for my type of cartridge which is a high output MC?

Dip switch 1 turned on would suggest your cartridge is a low output MC

[willbewill]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170309/9cb1315a0657b228ae7d11cfc5175f53.jpg

Hi - I've attached a pic hopefully of the settings- I paid the guys in O'Brien Hi Fi to fit the cartridge, so hopefully they set it up ok!?


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I'm assuming the lower DIP switch is the one to set...if so then gain is set to 43dB, impedance to 47k ohm, and capacitance to 100pF. The capacitance would be worth trying - initially just change switch number 7 to UP instead of DOWN (remember to switch phono stage off before adjusting).

[Colinijohnson]

I'm assuming the lower DIP switch is the one to set...if so then gain is set to 43dB, impedance to 47k ohm, and capacitance to 100pF. The capacitance would be worth trying - initially just change switch number 7 to UP instead of DOWN (remember to switch phono stage off before adjusting).

Thanks - should I try switching the no7 switch on both panel of switches?


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[Colinijohnson]

I have a Tube Box S, and I couldn't be happier with it...

What type of cartridge is yours MM or MC, or high output MC?

I just set mine to the default example provided in the manual for my type of cartridge which is a high output MC?

Dip switch 1 turned on would suggest your cartridge is a low output MC

It's a nagoaka 150 mm - the Hifi shop set up the Pre amp....


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[willbewill]

Thanks - should I try switching the no7 switch on both panel of switches?


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The bottom one, and looking at it again, man those switches are like optical illusions, yours is currently set for 40 dB gain, 47k ohm impedance, and 200pF.

First thing I would try is to move switch 7 down which will give 100pF.

MM cartridges can be very sensitive to capacitance ;)

[Colinijohnson]

Thank you - I'll try that when I get back - Colin


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[Colinijohnson]

Just to confirm - sorry, do I try switching both "no 7" switches down? I presumed the panels are for left & right channels.


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[struth]

You should do both sides the same, yes.

[struth]

According to that pic you have 40 db set at moment

[Colinijohnson]

Thank you - so I've just got to try switching no 7 down


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[struth]

In that pic it should go to left. Just one value on the other 2 off or to right. Same with resistance. 47k on other two off. Left is on and right is off

[Colinijohnson]

Thanks


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[Stryder5]

Try these settings 1 on, 2 off, 3 off= 43 db gain

4,5 and 6 off = 47k

7 on 8 off = 200pf

If you want it brighter 7 off 8 on = 320pf

Upper and lower switches should be identical.

[willbewill]

You should do both sides the same, yes.

Ah right it's dual mono, brain really not in gear today - I blame the raging laryngitis

[walpurgis]

I blame the raging laryngitis

Ooh. Nasty!

[WAD62]

It's a nagoaka 150 mm - the Hifi shop set up the Pre amp....


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From the manual for MM you should have 5 & 8 on, the rest off...and yes both channels ;)

EDIT; Oops I'm talking boll*cks, your dip switch configuration is different to the tube box's, for MM it recommends 1, 3, and 7 set to on...as per your original photo

[Colinijohnson]

Looks like I'm getting some good advice. Various web posting confirm my nagoaka cart should be set at 100pf - otherwise it can really effect the sound.I asked the Hifi store to set up for me & they just kept the Ortofon settings... I'm going to dig out my Hi Fi news test record and check everything all the set up now.


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[Colinijohnson]

I've tried fiddling with no avail - just not happy with the muffled sound. Hopefully I'd be happier with a better Pre Amp. Can someone please recommend one to suit up to £250. Thanks


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[willbewill]

What you need is somebody nearby with another cartridge and phono stage so you can get to the route of the problem. As it seems you got at least some of it from a dealer then why not go back to them with your problem. Was it a new cartridge?

[martian sunrise]

Where in south London Colin?

[Colinijohnson]

I'm in Coulsdon near Croydon. I bought all the kit from O'Brien's in Rayners Park, but visits are by appointment only, and they were closed all of January. I think they specialise in high end installs not me


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[Colinijohnson]

I spent just short of £2k inc speakers, sme rewire, cartridge, speaker cable & Pre amp


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[willbewill]

I'd give them a call and a chance to put things right for you, I know if I were the dealer that's what I would want, rather than having an unhappy customer telling other potential punters.

[Bigman80]

I spent just short of £2k inc speakers, sme rewire, cartridge, speaker cable & Pre amp


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😯

Wow. Defo give them a call. See if anyone in London on the forum can let you have a listen to their gear at your place.

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[Arkless Electronics]

I've tried fiddling with no avail - just not happy with the muffled sound. Hopefully I'd be happier with a better Pre Amp. Can someone please recommend one to suit up to £250. Thanks


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Already have but once again.... http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?49403-Arkless-640P-MC-MM-phono-loan-list It's the best budget phono stage in the world by some margin. Please google reviews.

[Colinijohnson]

Interesting thanks - I'm "watching" a couple of suitable Cambridge on eBay ... hope to be in touch later


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[Reffc]

This sounds like a capacitance load issue to me. Nagaoka work best with as small a load capacitance as possible, preferably close to nothing bar the cable capacitance, so 100pF.

At 300pF, all other things considered (such as the self inductance of the cartridge and its resonant point), you'd be (example case), creating a spike at HF in resonance for no good reason and it would cause a steep roll off with increased capacitance (as capacitance is increased, it lowers the point of roll-off, quite contrary to what a previous poster said).

You have to consider and include the cable (including tonearm) cable capacitance in all of this, and for a normal 1.2m IC length, plus the tonearm section, it would be reasonable to assume that you have close to 150pF already without adding anything else, so try the set up again but with zero added capacitance...it's simply not needed.

If you don't know the capacitance of your cable, but can supply the length plus the geometry (ie is it a coax and if so what diameter/or what distance between inner conductor and shield) than I can work out the capacitance for you.

Hope this helps.

[RothwellAudio]

At 300pF, all other things considered (such as the self inductance of the cartridge and its resonant point), you'd be (example case), creating a spike at HF in resonance for no good reason and it would cause a steep roll off with increased capacitance (as capacitance is increased, it lowers the point of roll-off, quite contrary to what a previous poster said).
To be fair to the previous poster he didn't mention lowering or raising the roll-off point, just said something about a brighter sound. Yes, more capacitance does give you more of a roll-off at the top end of the audio spectrum but the increased spike is usually in the "brightness" area of the spectrum and so gives the impression of more top end even though there's actually less.
Anyway, the OP's phonostage has switchable capacitance so it's an easy job to play around with the capacitance load and find out if that's the issue.

[Reffc]

To be fair to the previous poster he didn't mention lowering or raising the roll-off point, just said something about a brighter sound. Yes, more capacitance does give you more of a roll-off at the top end of the audio spectrum but the increased spike is usually in the "brightness" area of the spectrum and so gives the impression of more top end even though there's actually less.
Anyway, the OP's phonostage has switchable capacitance so it's an easy job to play around with the capacitance load and find out if that's the issue.

Fair points Andrew, and no offence meant to the previous poster. With the Nag carts that I use (currently the MP-500 but I have had the 150 here too), increased capacitance does tend to make them sound quite muffled which is why I raised the capacitance issue. The other one very sensitive to this that I've used in the past was the Shure M97x. Hope the OP gets it all sorted anyway.

[Colinijohnson]

Thanks for that, I tried reducing the capacity on the phono amp last night - if anything it sounded less "bright". I,m now suspecting the deck set up is not right and will go as far as checking the actual tracking force weight is ok & it tracks ok on my test record, but would rather leave adjustment to an expert if I can find one. Otherwise I'll buy a better phono amp.
I bought 0.5m chord phono cables & the thorens deck has standard sme cable- although I had the actual phono plugs changed for new gold plated ones as they looked tarnished.
Thanks, Colin


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[Bigman80]

Can someone go round and help this man out ? Gotta be a cockerney on here somewhere !!!!

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[Colinijohnson]

Well if there is anyone - £50 plus tea or coffee in Coulsdon on offer to correct or check deck set up!


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[RothwellAudio]

With the Nag carts that I use (currently the MP-500 but I have had the 150 here too), increased capacitance does tend to make them sound quite muffled which is why I raised the capacitance issue.

Fair enough - I must admit that I don't have much experience of Nagaoka cartridges. Sounds like capacitance could be the issue.

[Stryder5]

Thanks for that, I tried reducing the capacity on the phono amp last night - if anything it sounded less "bright". I,m now suspecting the deck set up is not right and will go as far as checking the actual tracking force weight is ok & it tracks ok on my test record, but would rather leave adjustment to an expert if I can find one. Otherwise I'll buy a better phono amp.
I bought 0.5m chord phono cables & the thorens deck has standard sme cable- although I had the actual phono plugs changed for new gold plated ones as they looked tarnished.
Thanks, Colin


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I rather suspect it's not the phono amp you have issues with, it could be the arm setup, or perhaps the cable plugs that you had replaced have issues.

Probably a glaring one though unusual, a duff cartridge ?

[Stryder5]

Can someone go round and help this man out ? Gotta be a cockerney on here somewhere !!!!

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I think you may have offended any Cockney's on here.......lol

[Colinijohnson]

I think you're right - if anyone knows an expert around the Croydon area I could visit. I'd be grateful, so if the cartridge is duff - I could return with confidence? Thanks


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[Stryder5]

I think you're right - if anyone knows an expert around the Croydon area I could visit. I'd be grateful, so if the cartridge is duff - I could return with confidence? Thanks


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If the cartridge is not good defo returnable.

[struth]

Thanks for that, I tried reducing the capacity on the phono amp last night - if anything it sounded less "bright". I,m now suspecting the deck set up is not right and will go as far as checking the actual tracking force weight is ok & it tracks ok on my test record, but would rather leave adjustment to an expert if I can find one. Otherwise I'll buy a better phono amp.
I bought 0.5m chord phono cables & the thorens deck has standard sme cable- although I had the actual phono plugs changed for new gold plated ones as they looked tarnished.
Thanks, Colin


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Standard sme cable and plugs are pretty decent. The plugs to usually look passed it but are fine. I still use mine as is. If you have rca cables elsewhere you could swap out the chord stuff as a trial. Not a lot to go wrong with deck as such..well you,d probably notice if there were.
Cart wrongly wired. Cart set up Head-shell and cart itself, plus phono stage are other potential culprits. Pity your at other side of country. Bound to find someone around your area. If not take it to the shop, or another shop.

[walpurgis]

It's nice of you to offer payment for assistance Colin. But in the spirit of the forum, we'd expect anybody willing to help to do it free, barring perhaps just a small remuneration to cover out of pocket costs like fuel or postage, etc. Unless of course, you engage the services of a trade member.

[Stryder5]

Take it all to O'Briens and ask them to test it for you, they did some of the work so should be happy to confirm all is ok or not.

Maybe a pain, but we are all pissing in the wind trying to diagnose from a distance.

[Colinijohnson]

For those of you still with me - thanks for the input. Tonight I dug out my Hi Sound test record.... points to poor fitting of the arm & or cart since obriens removed & sent back to SME. For those familiar ... on the test for tracking & bias (side 1, test2 b&c)... I was hearing "warble" from the left speaker. Esp on track c. Same on side 2 test 3...worse on test 6. I tweaked the bias to no avail and pressure is set to max anyway.
I'm just technical to set up the arm myself & reluctant to return to dealer as I've lost faith tbh. If anyone knows someone, or a local dealer who is recommended - please advise.


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[Colinijohnson]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170310/ecd71bab889f94bd350139b079c08e6d.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170310/944eb34f3c3cb676a9d4777fd4273af0.jpg


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[Truckletheuncivil]

I would take it back. You've already paid and everybody goofs occasionally (even if they won't admit to it). You won't lose anything and if they can't get it right you should ask for a refund as they haven't done what you paid them to do. Good luck whatever you decide.

[Stryder5]

For those of you still with me - thanks for the input. Tonight I dug out my Hi Sound test record.... points to poor fitting of the arm & or cart since obriens removed & sent back to SME. For those familiar ... on the test for tracking & bias (side 1, test2 b&c)... I was hearing "warble" from the left speaker. Esp on track c. Same on side 2 test 3...worse on test 6. I tweaked the bias to no avail and pressure is set to max anyway.
I'm just technical to set up the arm myself & reluctant to return to dealer as I've lost faith tbh. If anyone knows someone, or a local dealer who is recommended - please advise.


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I know I'm not being really helpful, but your arm/cartridge alignment has not been done correctly, in my opinion.

[struth]

its not set up right, For a start, youve not used the rider weight to put the weight on the stylus. the rider arm has also not been set up for cartridgeweight, antiskate etc. You need to find the setup instructions for the sme. also if you are putting more than 1.5 gm on the stylus, which you will likely be, then you have to set up the floating arm then add a gram from the back weight. then add a gram from rider. the rider arm will have to be moved out in the steps to marks provided the the weight applied in right place.

I will have a look see if I can find them

[struth]

instructions model 3009 series ii improved - The Analog Dept.

type that in to search bar and download the pdf file. it will give you an idea as to how the arm sets up

[Colinijohnson]

Thanks struth - it seems incredible the dealer would pass this off. I won't bore the post with the history - but I won't be going back there!


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[Bigman80]

Thanks struth - it seems incredible the dealer would pass this off. I won't bore the post with the history - but I won't be going back there!


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I cant believe anyone would be offended by "cockerney" !! They think were all backwards from north of Milton Keynes [emoji23]

Anyway, lets try this another way, if you can get to Wolverhampton with your TT ill set it up correctly for you. Its 1.48hrs on the train and that £50 would cover your fare here and back. Ill make you a cuppa too. Nothing worse than spending money on good gear and you cant get it to work. Been there.

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[Colinijohnson]

Ahh thanks for that - I might be in touch ..... I've been reading up... I have the 3009 s2. The rider weight looks ok, tho other versions have an additional weight... my cart is supposed to track at 1-8gms ideally, and the max allowable is 1-5gms ?! - there may be a sme fix for this... but the dealer should have been aware...oh and the bias weight cord was not attached properly...oops


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[Colinijohnson]

.....and when lowering the arm.... it veers to the left!


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[Bigman80]

Lowers down to the left of center or does the whole arm.move to the left ? Like its drifting

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[Colinijohnson]

Yes - drifting ... it just came back from sme re wire & service


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[Colinijohnson]

Dealer stuck arm & new cartridge on


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[Bigman80]

Drifting usually means theres not enough weight on the headshell end or your rewire is too tight and is causing resistance inside the arm. Or, the wire used to rewire is too stiff and is causing resistance.



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[Colinijohnson]

I'd like to think sme do a proper job for the £400 or so I paid & hope it's the amount of tracking pressure at issue


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[Reffc]

.....and when lowering the arm.... it veers to the left!


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Bias settings sound a bit high. This can cause the arm to drift on queuing.

[alphaGT]

Just think, once you get it all set you'll be an expert! A good education is always expensive. Just write it off as a learning experience.


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[Ari]

.....and when lowering the arm.... it veers to the left!
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Do you have a level ? To check that the turntable itself is level ?

Also , it appears that your arm is a SME S2 Improved , I can't tell if it has fixed or removable headshell , but in my mind the cartridge is entirely the wrong choice for the arm .

Nagaoka MP150 is very low dynamic compliance cartridge that likes a high effective mass tonearm .


SME S2 Improved with fixed headshell has effective mass of 6,5 grams :- would like cartridge with dynamic compliance between 20 and 31 ( x10-6 cm/Dyne )

SME S2 Improved with removable headshell has effective mass of 9 grams ( assuming original SME headshell is fitted ) :- would like cartridge with dynamic compliance between 18 and 25 ( x10-6 cm/Dyne )

https://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge_resonance_evaluator.php

Here is a list of moving magnet cartridges that may be better suited to your arm :

https://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge_database.php?m=any&sort=2&t=mm&Search=Search&mod=&ovlo=&ovhi=&sty=&stid=&dclo=20&dchi=25&can=&masslo=&masshi=&notes=&prlo=&prhi=&page=0

From looking at the list it appears that the easiest option will be the Ortofon 2M's ( red to black , depending on budget ) .

Also , I don't know about the Project phonostage , for the money I would go for a Vista Audio phonostage , looks like crap , sounds like heaven .

http://www.vista-audio.com/products/phono-1mkII/index.htm

[Colinijohnson]

Err yes, kept from the days of my pl12d - yes learning experience!


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[Reffc]

Crikey chaps, lets pull on the reins a bit shall we?!


Nr 1. None of us actually know for sure what the problem is. We're just guessing for now until it is confirmed;

Nr2. There is nothing inherently wrong between the match of the MP-150 and the SME arm. Dynamic compliance is 6 x 10-6cm/dyne (static is 18 x 10 -6 cm/dyne)but this is at 100 Hz. I have measured the dynamic compliance to be closer to around 10 to 11, which puts this as a medium compliance cartridge suitable for medium mass arms or light mass with a little headshell mass added for best tracking performance, if needed. It is close enough not to worry about the match...at this stage.

All that is known is that a) it sounds muffled, and b) it moves to the outside of the LP (presumably when being queued?).

Causes for a) are most likely either too much capacitance on the loading or a damaged generator. The causes for b) are either the TT isn't level or bias and/or VTF are out.

Until someone can check this for Colin, there's little point in further speculation as it isn't really helping him.

Is there anyone in Colin's neck of the woods from AoS that could do this for him?

[struth]

If you look at supplied picture Paul you can see the problem with arm. It's not in any way been set up. Until that is fixed then we shall get nowhere fast.
There is no reason the cart should not sound great on an sme 3009. It's one of the best arms at that price point. I'm using one and mine looks a lot different to his picture


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[Bigman80]

Crikey chaps, lets pull on the reins a bit shall we?!


Nr 1. None of us actually know for sure what the problem is. We're just guessing for now until it is confirmed;

Nr2. There is nothing inherently wrong between the match of the MP-150 and the SME arm. Dynamic compliance is 6 x 10-6cm/dyne (static is 18 x 10 -6 cm/dyne)but this is at 100 Hz. I have measured the dynamic compliance to be closer to around 10 to 11, which puts this as a medium compliance cartridge suitable for medium mass arms or light mass with a little headshell mass added for best tracking performance, if needed. It is close enough not to worry about the match...at this stage.

All that is known is that a) it sounds muffled, and b) it moves to the outside of the LP (presumably when being queued?).

Causes for a) are most likely either too much capacitance on the loading or a damaged generator. The causes for b) are either the TT isn't level or bias and/or VTF are out.

Until someone can check this for Colin, there's little point in further speculation as it isn't really helping him.

Is there anyone in Colin's neck of the woods from AoS that could do this for him?
I agree

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[Colinijohnson]

Do you have a level ? To check that the turntable itself is level ?

Also , it appears that your arm is a SME S2 Improved , I can't tell if it has fixed or removable headshell , but in my mind the cartridge is entirely the wrong choice for the arm .

Nagaoka MP150 is very low dynamic compliance cartridge that likes a high effective mass tonearm .


SME S2 Improved with fixed headshell has effective mass of 6,5 grams :- would like cartridge with dynamic compliance between 20 and 31 ( x10-6 cm/Dyne )

SME S2 Improved with removable headshell has effective mass of 9 grams ( assuming original SME headshell is fitted ) :- would like cartridge with dynamic compliance between 18 and 25 ( x10-6 cm/Dyne )

https://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge_resonance_evaluator.php

Here is a list of moving magnet cartridges that may be better suited to your arm :

https://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge_database.php?m=any&sort=2&t=mm&Search=Search&mod=&ovlo=&ovhi=&sty=&stid=&dclo=20&dchi=25&can=&masslo=&masshi=&notes=&prlo=&prhi=&page=0

From looking at the list it appears that the easiest option will be the Ortofon 2M's ( red to black , depending on budget ) .

Also , I don't know about the Project phonostage , for the money I would go for a Vista Audio phonostage , looks like crap , sounds like heaven .

http://www.vista-audio.com/products/phono-1mkII/index.htm

Thanks for that



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[Ari]

Thanks for that
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It is good to learn about the resonance evaluators , dynamic compliance etc. , I've come to realize that almost any arm can sound amazing , provided it is matched with the right cart . I hope I made it understandable , I have a tendency to get terribly technical . ;)

And here's a link to cartridge alignment protractors , I recommend the Stevenson alignment protractor . Print it out , mount on the turntable , loosen those little acorn nuts a little ( don't undo them completely ) and move the arm backwards and forward till it aligns at both points . I still believe the MP150 is the wrong cartridge for the arm .

https://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge-alignment-protractors.shtml

For starters , move the piece of gut ( fishline ) attached to the bias counterweight inwards completely ( the opposite end to what is indicated on your photos ) .

[RothwellAudio]

Doesn't the anti-skate bias have to pull the arm out from the centre to counteract the skating force? Of course, there is no skating force until the stylus touches the record, so the arm should drift outwards as it descends.

[Ari]

Doesn't the anti-skate bias have to pull the arm out from the centre to counteract the skating force? Of course, there is no skating force until the stylus touches the record, so the arm should drift outwards as it descends.

Hi Andrew - yes , the anti-skate force will pull the arm away from the centre of the record whilst lowering the arm . I also recognize , though , that in this case the anti-skate is set waaay too high .

I own ~10 SME3009 arms and a 3012 ranging from early to S2 to S2 improved . I'm quite taken , when it comes to the SME3009 , and quite adept at setting them up .

[Colinijohnson]

Just a wee update - I bought some scales, the cartridge was tracking at 1-5g, so after altering to 1-8g, things improved a lot. Today I dropped the deck off at Retro Tech Audio in Caterham. These guys service Thorens decks, so they'll check alignment etc for me. Anyone had experience of them? I also acquired a Cambridge Audio pre amp & sent it off to Arkless for the upgrade. I'm looking forward to the results and will post some feedback. Thanks all for your help. Next project will be to upgrade my Cyrus 7 amp. I'm not sure whether to do this via Cyrus to an 8, and get the power supply or try something different. Any thoughts anyone? Or should I start a new thread? [emoji3]Colin


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[Ari]

Just a wee update - I bought some scales, the cartridge was tracking at 1-5g, so after altering to 1-8g, things improved a lot. Today I dropped the deck off at Retro Tech Audio in Caterham. These guys service Thorens decks, so they'll check alignment etc for me. Anyone had experience of them? I also acquired a Cambridge Audio pre amp & sent it off to Arkless for the upgrade. I'm looking forward to the results and will post some feedback. Thanks all for your help. Next project will be to upgrade my Cyrus 7 amp. I'm not sure whether to do this via Cyrus to an 8, and get the power supply or try something different. Any thoughts anyone? Or should I start a new thread? [emoji3]Colin


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The Motion 15 has a sensitivity 92 dB @ 2.83 volts/meter @ 5 Ohms . Pretty efficient for a bookshelve speaker , and I'd say efficient enough to be driven by a ~ 20-30 wpc valve amplifier . Something like a Mullard 5 20 or a Quad II . Nothing like the magic of valves IMHO . What's your budget for an amp ? I see the Cyrus 7 has pre-outs , so you could use that as a pre-amp with a valve power-amp .

If you'd like to stay with solid state power , and have loads of power , the Nord amplifiers look fantastic : http://www.iqspeakers.co.uk/hypex-amps

[Colinijohnson]

Thanks for that - I think a 2nd hand power amp is the way to go. My budget is 300-500 . I've had the deck & arm set up properly with great results and an arkless Pre amp is on its way to me. Can't wait! Any suggestions on power amps would be welcome using my Cyrus 7 as a Pre. (I play largely rock & pop)
Thanks to all for your advice. Colin


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[walpurgis]

Any suggestions on power amps would be welcome using my Cyrus 7 as a Pre. (I play largely rock & pop)
Thanks to all for your advice. Colin

The natural choice would be a Cyrus power amp. But a Quad might be good, maybe a 606 Mk.2? It's a good amp with plenty of power.

Specs here:

http://i65.tinypic.com/2nv4gnn.png

[Ari]

Hey Colin

I was just wondering about how it's going with your system , checked my email , lo and behold ! :)

I can't wait to hear of your impression of your modded phono-stage when you get it , and properly setup arm .

Here is a link to Cyrus power amplifiers for sale in the UK on fleabay : http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1311.R11.TR12.TRC2.A0.H1.Xc yrus.TRS0&_nkw=cyrus+power+amplifier&_sacat=0

If you get a power amp closely matching the specs of your Cyrus 7 you could try bi-amping the Motion 15's , using the amplifiers in your Cyrus 7 and the separate power amp .

Meridian power : http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Meridian-Two-Channel-Power-Amplifier-Class-AA-High-Speed-Power-Hi-Fi-Seperates-/262928664827?hash=item3d37c508fb:g:M6kAAOSwuLZY6Nc M Quick ! Bid on this now - 1 day left .

Cambridge Audio : http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Cambridge-Audio-Azur-651W-Power-Amplifier-Silver-New-/311830864159?hash=item489a91611f:g:ZXUAAOSw5cNYXUU O

Linn LK140 : http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Linn-LK140-power-amplifier-excellent-condition-Krescendo-HiFi-/142345639001?hash=item2124761459:g:RcQAAOSwTM5YyAr X

Quad Pre Amp and 2x Quad 306 : http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Quad-Pre-Amp-and-2x-Quad-306-200w-30-day-guarantee-/222468856079?hash=item33cc2d590f:g:i-sAAOSwr~lYrwUc

Roksan Kandy KMA 2/3 Power Amplifier Mk III : http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Roksan-Kandy-KMA-2-3-Power-Amplifier-Mk-III-What-HiFi-Award-Winning-Power-Amp-/262906878168?hash=item3d367898d8:g:mfkAAOSwCU1Y1SH N

CONRAD JOHNSON SONOGRAPHE SA 150 POWER AMP : http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CONRAD-JOHNSON-SONOGRAPHE-SA-150-POWER-AMP-/282420046246?hash=item41c18be9a6:g:DOUAAOSwdGFYsqP 0

Naim NAP-150 : http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Naim-NAP-150-Stereo-Power-Amplifier-Black-Customer-Trade-In-N-1017-/252784179826?hash=item3adb1c7a72:g:1f8AAOSw4CFYrxH h

The Meridian , Conrad Johnson and NAP-150 would be first on my list , closely followed by the Linn . Perhaps other members could voice their opinions .

[Colinijohnson]

Thanks - funds limited , but tempted to bid on the Meridan!


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[Ari]

Here the only info I can find on the Meridian : http://www.meridian-audio.info/show.php?compid=185

It looks like it uses switch-mode PSU's - interesting .

Look what someones selling on this forum , a bit more cash , yummy yum yum :) :http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?50866-FS-Tsakiridis-Aeolos-Super-Plus-KT120-valve-integrated-amplifier

[walpurgis]

Look what someones selling on this forum , a bit more cash , yummy yum yum :) :http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?50866-FS-Tsakiridis-Aeolos-Super-Plus-KT120-valve-integrated-amplifier

Yes. If you have the budget, that should be really nice. Pretty powerful for a valve amp too.

[Colinijohnson]

Hi Jez - finally finished my decorating and got things going. Well now the deck is set up properly and with your Pre amp it's a complete revelation ! It's as if I've benefited from an ear syringe and well everything is so defined and musical now. Big thank you to Arkless and all the help - love it hearing my collection as if it was for the first time:)


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[Ari]

Good to hear that your rig is up and running . Amazing what proper setup can do combined with good equipment . Enjoy !

[Arkless Electronics]

Hi Jez - finally finished my decorating and got things going. Well now the deck is set up properly and with your Pre amp it's a complete revelation ! It's as if I've benefited from an ear syringe and well everything is so defined and musical now. Big thank you to Arkless and all the help - love it hearing my collection as if it was for the first time:)


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I'm glad you like it so much Colin! If anyone else wants to try an Arkless 640P see here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?49403-Arkless-640P-MC-MM-phono-loan-list/page11
As it says you'll need to act now....

[Colinijohnson]

I bought that Meridan you mentioned Ari for £250 on eBay today. I'll post results. Looking forward to this - a "blind punt" I think. But so was the Arkless Pre amp which I'm very pleased with. Anyone experience of the Meridan ?
This week I had installed a huge fm aerial on the roof - problem is that I should have purchased a directional aerial, not an omni directional one.
I'm not impressed with my Cyrus 7 tuner - good strength stations lacked soundstage presence. Anyway, new aerial on its way and I bought a rotel bx950 tuner for no money on eBay & will try that too.


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[Colinijohnson]

Hey Colin

I was just wondering about how it's going with your system , checked my email , lo and behold ! :)

I can't wait to hear of your impression of your modded phono-stage when you get it , and properly setup arm .

Here is a link to Cyrus power amplifiers for sale in the UK on fleabay : http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1311.R11.TR12.TRC2.A0.H1.Xc yrus.TRS0&_nkw=cyrus+power+amplifier&_sacat=0

If you get a power amp closely matching the specs of your Cyrus 7 you could try bi-amping the Motion 15's , using the amplifiers in your Cyrus 7 and the separate power amp .

Meridian power : http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Meridian-Two-Channel-Power-Amplifier-Class-AA-High-Speed-Power-Hi-Fi-Seperates-/262928664827?hash=item3d37c508fb:g:M6kAAOSwuLZY6Nc M Quick ! Bid on this now - 1 day left .

Cambridge Audio : http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Cambridge-Audio-Azur-651W-Power-Amplifier-Silver-New-/311830864159?hash=item489a91611f:g:ZXUAAOSw5cNYXUU O

Linn LK140 : http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Linn-LK140-power-amplifier-excellent-condition-Krescendo-HiFi-/142345639001?hash=item2124761459:g:RcQAAOSwTM5YyAr X

Quad Pre Amp and 2x Quad 306 : http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Quad-Pre-Amp-and-2x-Quad-306-200w-30-day-guarantee-/222468856079?hash=item33cc2d590f:g:i-sAAOSwr~lYrwUc

Roksan Kandy KMA 2/3 Power Amplifier Mk III : http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Roksan-Kandy-KMA-2-3-Power-Amplifier-Mk-III-What-HiFi-Award-Winning-Power-Amp-/262906878168?hash=item3d367898d8:g:mfkAAOSwCU1Y1SH N

CONRAD JOHNSON SONOGRAPHE SA 150 POWER AMP : http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CONRAD-JOHNSON-SONOGRAPHE-SA-150-POWER-AMP-/282420046246?hash=item41c18be9a6:g:DOUAAOSwdGFYsqP 0

Naim NAP-150 : http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Naim-NAP-150-Stereo-Power-Amplifier-Black-Customer-Trade-In-N-1017-/252784179826?hash=item3adb1c7a72:g:1f8AAOSw4CFYrxH h

The Meridian , Conrad Johnson and NAP-150 would be first on my list , closely followed by the Linn . Perhaps other members could voice their opinions .

I bought that Meridan you mentioned Ari for £250 on eBay today. I'll post results. Looking forward to this - a "blind punt" I think. But so was the Arkless Pre amp which I'm very pleased with. Anyone experience of the Meridan ?
This week I had installed a huge fm aerial on the roof - problem is that I should have purchased a directional aerial, not an omni directional one.
I'm not impressed with my Cyrus 7 tuner - good strength stations lacked soundstage presence. Anyway, new aerial on its way and I bought a rotel bx950 tuner for no money on eBay & will try that too.


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[Ari]

Wow ! I can't wait to hear your impressions Colin - it should be fantastic . Most audio equipment I've ever purchased has been 2nd hand apart from a Cambridge Audio 651C that I purchased recently and a Creek Audio phonostage that I purchased a couple of years ago . The Meridian should be excellent .

[Colinijohnson]

Wow ! I can't wait to hear your impressions Colin - it should be fantastic . Most audio equipment I've ever purchased has been 2nd hand apart from a Cambridge Audio 651C that I purchased recently and a Creek Audio phonostage that I purchased a couple of years ago . The Meridian should be excellent .

Hi Ari - bought the Meridan - works ok, BUT was worse than my Cyrus 7 Pre.I called JS Audio who being an ex Musical Fidelity chap -services amps. He quoted me £300 - saying the 1986 model would be "ok" after the service, but I'd be better off spending £ on a newer amp such as a musical fidelity a3. So Now flogging the Meridan & a a3cr with JS upgrades is on its way! (eBay £400). Joys of trial & error - but more optimistic with the a3.


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[Ari]

Hi Ari - bought the Meridan - works ok, BUT was worse than my Cyrus 7 Pre.I called JS Audio who being an ex Musical Fidelity chap -services amps. He quoted me £300 - saying the 1986 model would be "ok" after the service, but I'd be better off spending £ on a newer amp such as a musical fidelity a3. So Now flogging the Meridan & a a3cr with JS upgrades is on its way! (eBay £400). Joys of trial & error - but more optimistic with the a3.


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Hey Colin - I'm sorry the Meridian wasn't up to scratch , let's hope that the Musical Fidelity A3 is the right one . Did the seller allow you to return the Meridian ?

The 3A certainly looks good .

http://www.piyanaswebboard.com/hosting/image-3AB9_50AEECAE.jpg


https://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NDAwWDEwMDA=/z/jDkAAOSwzJ5XWHEr/$_86.JPG

[Colinijohnson]

No chance - eBay. A3 arrived today. Ive also acquired a Meridan 561 Pre processor too with the intention of adding a sub.
Record deck is now sounding great - although the difference I quality in records seems to pose me more questions!


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[Ari]

No chance - eBay. A3 arrived today. Ive also acquired a Meridan 561 Pre processor too with the intention of adding a sub.
Record deck is now sounding great - although the difference I quality in records seems to pose me more questions!


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Ask away , let's hear what you're experiencing . Holding thumbs that the MF A3 is gooooood !