capacitor question?

[the_doc735]

capacitor question?

Can I swap a: 3.9 uf, 250v MKP (MONACOR)

For a: 5.6 uf, 1000v MKP (Mcap)

cheers!


...can't seem to post in 'technical' for some reason?

[Ali Tait]

What is it going in and what does it do?

[the_doc735]

What is it going in and what does it do?

it's going in a Cary 100t DAC, on an output board

Cheers!

[Ali Tait]

Yes should be fine.

[the_doc735]

Yes should be fine.

many thanks!
:cool:

[the_doc735]

capacitor question?

Can I swap a: 3.9 uf, 250v MKP (MONACOR)

19675

For a: 5.6 uf, 450v (Mcap)

http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/mcap_evo_oil.html

cheers!

[JimC]

Better............................

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mundorf-MCap-SUPREME-SILVER-OIL-4-7uF-Kondensator-capacitor-Silber-Ol-852663-/311351064397?hash=item487df8374d:g:dpcAAOxydgZTJXt 7

[the_doc735]

there £90 each! :eek:

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Hi Paul

As the Cary is a valve output stage, there are a few cautions changing capacitors
this is because there is lots of DC voltage typically 300v on typically the anode of the valve

You should turn the DAC off for at least 12 hours, by unplugging it, to allow voltage to dissipate and be very good at
soldering and electronics, as what you are embarking upon is not a beginners project. If you have experience
then follow safety precautions with high voltage emphasis.

You would also be invalidating your warranty

At the very least IMO write to Cary asking for their advice. If they are plugging into
what audiophiles want - they may well consider the alternative capacitor in their production.

The net effect will be to load the valve and earlier circuitry slightly differently- which may or
may not be within the valves specifications. It may for instance add small distortion
that the other capacitor did not exhibit, arising from extra current being required.
From my understanding a change to the cathode side may also become evident

Overall you can be pretty sure Cary has measured every facet to extract both the best audio
and the longest reliability. But possibly you may reap a benefit they have not discovered which
my understanding will be in the ESR rating of the capacitor being much higher.

A great read on most audio topics is here with great detail on valve stages: http://education.lenardaudio.com/

Hope this helps.

Cheers / Chris

[the_doc735]

Hi Paul

As the Cary is a valve output stage, there are a few cautions changing capacitors
this is because there is lots of DC voltage typically 300v on typically the anode of the valve

You should turn the DAC off for at least 12 hours, by unplugging it, to allow voltage to dissipate and be very good at
soldering and electronics, as what you are embarking upon is not a beginners project. If you have experience
then follow safety precautions with high voltage emphasis.

You would also be invalidating your warranty

At the very least IMO write to Cary asking for their advice. If they are plugging into
what audiophiles want - they may well consider the alternative capacitor in their production.

The net effect will be to load the valve and earlier circuitry slightly differently- which may or
may not be within the valves specifications. It may for instance add small distortion
that the other capacitor did not exhibit, arising from extra current being required.
From my understanding a change to the cathode side may also become evident

Overall you can be pretty sure Cary has measured every facet to extract both the best audio
and the longest reliability. But possibly you may reap a benefit they have not discovered which
my understanding will be in the ESR rating of the capacitor being much higher.

A great read on most audio topics is here with great detail on valve stages: http://education.lenardaudio.com/

Hope this helps.

Cheers / Chris

Thank you for your help, much appreciated!

Output capacitors will be upgraded to Oil capacitors (with larger uF as suggested by Cary themselves - better bass).

I have been soldering for about 44 years with 'parrot fashion' guidance, in computers, amps, TV's etc.

I was going to ask about polarity, there are no + - signs on the caps?

Also, how to discharge any voltage/current in the DAC, BEFORE doing anything!!

This DAC has had several output caps in its history, Panasonic, Modwright, Monacor, Dynamicap, etc. as well as several makes of valve!! LOL.

:scratch:

[JimC]

there £90 each! :eek:


;) :stalks: ;)

[sq225917]

Long leg is positive

[the_doc735]

Long leg is positive

you confirmed my suspicions, is it also slightly thicker?

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Thank you for your help, much appreciated!

Output capacitors will be upgraded to Oil capacitors (with larger uF as suggested by Cary themselves - better bass).

I have been soldering for about 44 years with 'parrot fashion' guidance, in computers, amps, TV's etc.

I was going to ask about polarity, there are no + - signs on the caps?

Also, how to discharge any voltage/current in the DAC, BEFORE doing anything!!

This DAC has had several output caps in its history, Panasonic, Modwright, Monacor, Dynamicap, etc. as well as several makes of valve!! LOL.

:scratch:

Hi Paul
Good to see 44 years behind the iron, the best capacitor for audio really is one not having polarity
as polarity infers a change of phase, I suspect the original Cary and the replacement are
non polarized as coupling audio in a Dac should not involve phase change.

To safely dissipate capacitors in a valve, I would having waited 12 hours measure with a multimeter
set for DC range the voltage existing between 0v and the anode side of the capacitor. 0v can and
does take many forms as the chassis is safety earth that sometimes is not the potential of the
0v point on the circuit board. But the chassis is a good primary spot to place the negative probe
Your probes need to be good ones with ideally 1000v insulation ( most but the very cheapest are OK )

So after 12 hours voltage should be a lot lower. Anything lower than 30v DC is not harmful to touch
so you are right to go. But lets say there is some resident voltage a bit higher.

In this case using a piece of insulated wire with a well insulated clip soldered to a 1 watt 10k resistor, that at all exposed parts
is WRAPPED 6 times IN INSULATION tape, you can carefully then have one end grounded to the chassis and carefully
use the clip to engage the valve end of the capacitor.

ALWAYS BE AWARE AND ONLY HOLD -WHERE THERE IS INSULATION - PARTICULARLY THE CLIP- observing its
insulation abilities.

A Oscilloscope probe has the right design namely a clip that extends out only when needed.
A bit of preparation work is needed to make two such clip leads insulated with resistors one at 10k and the
other at 680 ohm - but handy to have for such work.

Leaving for a minute then use a 680 ohm resistor same method. Voltage then will be
much lower after a minute- so test again with your meter ensuring voltage is below 30v DC .

AT ALL TIMES HAVE THE CARY DAC OFF

The T model has a timer circuit which is very likely to have thermistors and probably
a 555 timer circuit that already dissipate DC. But better being prepared as they may
not have for-seen customers changing capacitors.

Likewise the capacitor being placed in make sure it has no voltage - very unlikely.

Cheers / Chris

[the_doc735]

just got this:

Hello Paul.

I think you are looking at the output coupling caps.

Sure. As long as you can make them fit.

There's no real voltage there that needs that high a voltage cap. It's just what those caps come as. A Mondorf will sure improve the sound!

Technical Support available from 1-5 pm Mondays through Thursday. Closed Fridays

Dan Wemmer | Lead Technician & Technical Support

CARY AUDIO
6301 Chapel Hill Road | Raleigh, NC 27607
919-355-0010 PHONE
919-355-0013 FAX
www.caryaudio.com
[www.carydirect.com][www.carydirect.com www.carydirect.com SHOP NOW!

[the_doc735]

Hi Paul
Good to see 44 years behind the iron, the best capacitor for audio really is one not having polarity
as polarity infers a change of phase, I suspect the original Cary and the replacement are
non polarized as coupling audio in a Dac should not involve phase change.

To safely dissipate capacitors in a valve, I would having waited 12 hours measure with a multimeter
set for DC range the voltage existing between 0v and the anode side of the capacitor. 0v can and
does take many forms as the chassis is safety earth that sometimes is not the potential of the
0v point on the circuit board. But the chassis is a good primary spot to place the negative probe
Your probes need to be good ones with ideally 1000v insulation ( most but the very cheapest are OK )

So after 12 hours voltage should be a lot lower. Anything lower than 30v DC is not harmful to touch
so you are right to go. But lets say there is some resident voltage a bit higher.

In this case using a piece of insulated wire with a well insulated clip soldered to a 1 watt 10k resistor, that at all exposed parts
is WRAPPED 6 times IN INSULATION tape, you can carefully then have one end grounded to the chassis and carefully
use the clip to engage the valve end of the capacitor.

ALWAYS BE AWARE AND ONLY HOLD -WHERE THERE IS INSULATION - PARTICULARLY THE CLIP- observing its
insulation abilities.

A Oscilloscope probe has the right design namely a clip that extends out only when needed.
A bit of preparation work is needed to make two such clip leads insulated with resistors one at 10k and the
other at 680 ohm - but handy to have for such work.

Leaving for a minute then use a 680 ohm resistor same method. Voltage then will be
much lower after a minute- so test again with your meter ensuring voltage is below 30v DC .

AT ALL TIMES HAVE THE CARY DAC OFF

The T model has a timer circuit which is very likely to have thermistors and probably
a 555 timer circuit that already dissipate DC. But better being prepared as they may
not have for-seen customers changing capacitors.

Likewise the capacitor being placed in make sure it has no voltage - very unlikely.

Cheers / Chris

Excellent advice!

Where can I buy clips, leads & resistors to withstand 1000 volts?
these any good? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MERCURY-Alligator-Crocodile-Clip-Test-Leads-Set-10-Coloured-leads/262114350951?_trksid=p2045573.c100033.m2042&_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1% 26asc%3D20131017132637%26meid%3D39a8c0b5765a433d8f ad9c914d7be4cb%26pid%3D100033%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D8%2 6sd%3D182438870594

I have 3 different multi meters, several soldering irons and a USB oscilloscope & USB microscope. static wrist straps, electronic work platform, probe type thermometer, etc. Thanks for the tips on the insulated clip leads; really neat :interesting:

[RothwellAudio]

You can eliminate all the guesswork and waiting for hours etc. - just measure the voltage with a mulimeter :eyebrows:
Of course, that may be easier said than done. If the main reservoir caps are PCB mounted it might not be so easy to get at the terminals, but the principle is sound. Don't guess - measure.

[the_doc735]

You can eliminate all the guesswork and waiting for hours etc. - just measure the voltage with a mulimeter :eyebrows:
Of course, that may be easier said than done. If the main reservoir caps are PCB mounted it might not be so easy to get at the terminals, but the principle is sound. Don't guess - measure.

oh yes, I would always measure anyway, just like my mains tester screwdriver! LOL

[the_doc735]

the problem is SIZE the current monacors are 17mm dia. X 31mm long (quite small). Whereas things like the Audyn 4.7uF 600Vdc Tri-Reference Capacitor are 40mm (diameter) x 60mm (length); somewhat of a disparity in SIZE!! for example. I can't seem to find any posh caps that small. in effect they are twice the width and length in general. Does anyone know of something that will fit the space? :scratch:

19808
19811

Possibly this one: https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/mkp080-56uf-250v-mcap-polypropylene-capacitor-p-8505.html

[the_doc735]

Better............................

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mundorf-MCap-SUPREME-SILVER-OIL-4-7uF-Kondensator-capacitor-Silber-Ol-852663-/311351064397?hash=item487df8374d:g:dpcAAOxydgZTJXt 7

Anyway, aside from price, I think it's too big: SKU: SUPS0-230: Body dimensions: 46mm (diameter) x 71mm (length)
...the current ones are only Ø 17 mm x 31 mm long, and that is just about max'd out in the allocated space on the board!

19809
19810

[the_doc735]

I think the only way to fit bigger caps would be to use long leadouts and sit the big caps on top of the other components?
Would that be a bad idea?
:scratch:

19833 :eek::stalks::mental:

[the_doc735]

is there any reason why I can't chassis mount large caps in brackets, like the attached example picture?

19861

[RothwellAudio]

Capacitors - and any other component - should be held in place securely. Having big/heavy capacitors in brackets is a lot better than having them just shoved in somewhere and hoping for the best, but I wouldn't be particularly happy about having them located remotely from their place in the circuit and then long leads making the connections. I don't like the idea of the large loop area and the possibility of instability arising from inductive coupling or some other mysterious mechanism.
What is it you're trying to achieve?
BTW, are you aware of Cyril Bateman's research on capacitors?

[the_doc735]

Capacitors - and any other component - should be held in place securely. Having big/heavy capacitors in brackets is a lot better than having them just shoved in somewhere and hoping for the best, but I wouldn't be particularly happy about having them located remotely from their place in the circuit and then long leads making the connections. I don't like the idea of the large loop area and the possibility of instability arising from inductive coupling or some other mysterious mechanism.
What is it you're trying to achieve?
BTW, are you aware of Cyril Bateman's research on capacitors?

thanx for the advice. What is it I'm trying to achieve? ...someone has put very cheap Monacor caps in the Cary 100t DAC (a dollar each! $) and I want to replace them with high quality caps because 'the cary' is a quality piece of kit; the only trouble is, all the quality caps seem massive and double the size of what is in there at the moment! The monacors are: Ø 17 mm x L 31 mm. Previous to this someone else had fitted Dynamicaps that were: Ø 25 mm x L 39 mm, but I'm uncertain how these fitted in the available space? It seems it may have been originally supplied with OEM/trade Panasonc caps that were replaced with some kind of ModWright caps (early on!)?

I have found these 'budget' caps that would fit the space allocated:


JEL-075 - 4.7uF 100V Jensen Axial Electrolytic Capacitor
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/jel075-47uf-100v-jensen-axial-electrolytic-capacitor-p-9208.html


001-0431: 3.9uF 400Vdc Jantzen Standard Z-Cap
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/001-0431-3-9uF-400v-jantzen-standard-z-cap.html


(MKP-060) - 3.9uF 250V Mundorf MCap MKP Capacitor
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/mkp060-39uf-250v-mcap-polypropylene-capacitor-p-8503.html


(KPQS/3.9/250) - AUDYN CAP MKP QS 3.90 MF / 400 VDC / 250 VAC 5% AXIAL capacitor
https://www.intertechnik.com/Shop/Cross-over-parts/Capacitors/Audyn-Cap-QS4/_-KPQS39400_1768,en,7476,46758

...indeed there doesn't seem to be any high end quality caps that are small enough to fit in that space! Non of these are reviewed as being anything other than 'ordinary' (not extraordinary!). Do you know of any small very high quality caps?

Dan wemmer of 'CARY' said:
"sure! ...any of these should be OK as long as they fit the allocated space, there's no real voltage issue there (20 volts max.) that needs that high a voltage cap to be installed, it's just what those caps come as in manufacture, 100volt caps would easily suffice the purpose in this case!"

So that's it: I would like to fit very high quality caps.

[RothwellAudio]

Higher voltage caps will usually be bigger than lower voltage ones. A 400V cap where only 20V is required is bound to take up more space than a 20V cap.
Polypropylene caps are probably best, or polystyrene. Polystyrene only come in small values, so they won't be much use. That means looking for polypropylenes at a high enough voltage for the job.
You could use these:
https://www.rapidonline.com/jb-capacitors-4-7uf-5-250v-axial-metallized-polypropylene-film-capacitor-08-1312
but they're higher voltage than you need and may still be too big.
This is the full range with size info:
https://www.rapidonline.com/pdf/552455_v1.pdf

An alternative approach would be to use smaller caps of a lower voltage and parallel up enough to give you the capacitance you require.
A third option would be use an electrolytic. This would horrify most audiophiles, but the trick is to use a lot more capacitance than you think you need - and I mean a lot. Instead of 4.7uF use more like 470uF, or more if the cap will fit in the space. Also, use a non-polarised (or maybe called a bipolar) electrolytic if you can find one.

[Firebottle]

+1 for the JB capacitors for good performance at the price.

For a quality capacitor try Mundorf ZN, such as https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/zn100040-47uf-100v-polypropylene-capacitor-p-1144.html

The size chart is here, though may be too big still :https://hfc-fs.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/mundorf_2011_zn_ps_0.pdf

:)

[the_doc735]

Capacitors - and any other component - should be held in place securely. Having big/heavy capacitors in brackets is a lot better than having them just shoved in somewhere and hoping for the best, but I wouldn't be particularly happy about having them located remotely from their place in the circuit and then long leads making the connections. I don't like the idea of the large loop area and the possibility of instability arising from inductive coupling or some other mysterious mechanism.
What is it you're trying to achieve?
BTW, are you aware of Cyril Bateman's research on capacitors?

I hear what you all say! i.e. 'loops', noise etc.

So, how about a bracket running above the output board? Roughly 20-25mm above the existing circuit board; then 'perch' the bigger caps on top of the bracket (bar) over the original cap locations on the output board?

This could conceivably mean that the flying leads WOULD NOT NEED TO BE EXTENDED, they may be long enough in stock form to reach the output board without any extensions at all!! In addition, the flying leads could also be INSULATED/shielded from EMI/RFI!

see illustration: please forgive inadequate photo editing - LOL!

1987019871

[the_doc735]

An alternative approach would be to use smaller caps of a lower voltage and parallel up enough to give you the capacitance you require.
A third option would be use an electrolytic. This would horrify most audiophiles, but the trick is to use a lot more capacitance than you think you need - and I mean a lot. Instead of 4.7uF use more like 470uF, or more if the cap will fit in the space.

so this is wrong then:

https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/jel075-47uf-100v-jensen-axial-electrolytic-capacitor-p-9208.html

[the_doc735]

+1 for the JB capacitors for good performance at the price.

For a quality capacitor try Mundorf ZN, such as https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/zn100040-47uf-100v-polypropylene-capacitor-p-1144.html

The size chart is here, though may be too big still :https://hfc-fs.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/mundorf_2011_zn_ps_0.pdf

:)

many thanks for your suggestions which I shall certainly consider :champagne:

[the_doc735]

Just to make things a bit clearer:

1) I bought a secondhand Cary 100t DAC
2) Someone had downgraded the Output Buffer Caps. (monacor)
3) Cary told me to return the DAC to original spec OR ABOVE!
4) I decided to upgrade to a higher level than original spec.
5) I would like cap. suggestions from A.O.S. members?
6) Cary said I should keep the Uf to around 4.
7) Cary said the voltage should be above 20, 100 being ample.
8) the current cap size is: Ø 17 mm x L 31 mm.
9) A past cap fitment had been as large as: Ø 25 mm x L 39 mm (very tight).

:scratch:

[RothwellAudio]

so this is wrong then:

https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/jel075-47uf-100v-jensen-axial-electrolytic-capacitor-p-9208.html

If I was to use an electrolytic I'd want it to be a lot bigger than that. A 25V, 1000uF electrolytic would be much cheaper and a lot better.
Cary may say "stick to 4uF", but there's no reason why you shouldn't go bigger.
BTW, what makes you think the Monacors are no good? And what was "the original spec"?
TBH I wouldn't worry about it. Just leave the Monacors in there unless there's a definite problem.

BTW, what's wrong with the cap I suggested in post #25? Is it not expensive enough? If so, I'll buy a couple, "re-brand" them and sell them to you at £32 each if you like. :lol:

[the_doc735]

If I was to use an electrolytic I'd want it to be a lot bigger than that. A 25V, 1000uF electrolytic would be much cheaper and a lot better.

OK thanks!


Cary may say "stick to 4uF", but there's no reason why you shouldn't go bigger.

OK.


BTW, what makes you think the Monacors are no good? And what was "the original spec"?

Cary advised against sticking with the Monacor's. They didn't send me a spec. sheet. They have stopped answering my emails now.


TBH I wouldn't worry about it. Just leave the Monacor's in there unless there's a definite problem.

Cary said: use Clarity Cap, Auricap, Mondorf, V-Cap, Audio Note, Audyn, Jantzen for high quality purposes and purity of signal.


BTW, what's wrong with the cap I suggested in post #25? Is it not expensive enough? If so, I'll buy a couple, "re-brand" them and sell them to you at £32 each if you like. :lol:

http://www.monacor.co.uk/categories/film-capacitors/vnr/111560/

LOL! ~ yes they are expensive enough! It's not expense but quality I seek. Cary said the JB's quality will not be premium? The best quality for the least cost is always a priority to me. I am not going to pay the ridiculous prices for silver/gold caps, I think £20-£30 per caps is plenty, after that you would be faced with very big diminishing returns (a lot less bang for the buck!) quality differences being negligible and minute?

************************************************** ************************************************

Hello,
"You are looking at the output coupling caps. Sure, you can fit 4,7Uf. As long as you can make them fit. There's no real voltage there that needs a high voltage cap. It's just what those caps come as (250V). A 100V cap would be more than sufficient. I don't know exactly but there is probably only 20 volts or so. You need to keep it right around 4uf. As you go smaller, you lose bass response but I'm sure 3.7 would be fine. The Monacor looks like a very cheap quality cap! Looks much like a Solen/JB, I wouldn't waste my time with those. You could always return the DAC to its original spec.? A Mondorf will sure improve the sound! Maybe something more like a Clarity Cap, Auricap, Mondorf, V-Cap, Audio Note, Audyn, Jantzen for high quality purposes and purity of signal. Be aware though, Size will limit your choice."

Technical Support available from 1-5 pm Mondays through Thursday. Closed Fridays

Dan Wemmer | Lead Technician & Technical Support
CARY AUDIO
6301 Chapel Hill Road | Raleigh, NC 27607

919-355-0010 PHONE
919-355-0013 FAX

www.caryaudio.com

[www.carydirect.com][www.carydirect.com www.carydirect.com SHOP NOW!

[the_doc735]

...what baffles me is why a previous owner would remove £40 dynamicaps and replace them with £2 monacors? :mental:

[Firebottle]

Maybe he had fairy dust in his ears when someone said do(n't) fit Monacors :eyebrows:

It does seem somewhat crackers.

[RothwellAudio]

...what baffles me is why a previous owner would remove £40 dynamicaps and replace them with £2 monacors? :mental:

Maybe he wanted to use the expensive caps in something else.

How does anyone know the difference between a good cap and bad one when browsing catalogues? In the absence of any other knowledge they simply assume that more expensive equals better. Maybe I'm a cynical old git (actually, there's no maybe about it) but I suspect there are those who prey on the fact and put the price up just to look better than the competition.

Anyway, a brief summary of low distortion capacitor types as I understand them:
Best ones are certain types of ceramics, but they're only available in low values. Equally good are polystyrene, but they're only available in low values too. Next best are polypropylene, which a lot of "audiophile" caps are. However, polypropylenes are also made in vast quantities and sold to a variety of industrial users at much lower prices than their audiophile counterparts. As far as I know, they're just as good - just not labelled "audiophile".
Probably the most common type of capacitor is polyester. They're ok, but not as good as polypropylene.
However, distortion in capacitors is a function of how much voltage is across them. Having a larger value of cap than you need to get a 20Hz LF cut-off puts a lot less voltage across the cap and reduces distortion, hence a larger value of a low grade capacitor can give better results than a smaller value of a high grade capacitor. The problem comes when you're using the cap to filter in the midrange (as opposed to simply DC blocking, as in the case with the Cary), in which case there is a significant signal voltage across the cap and you should use the best type you can.

[the_doc735]

Maybe he wanted to use the expensive caps in something else.

How does anyone know the difference between a good cap and bad one when browsing catalogues? In the absence of any other knowledge they simply assume that more expensive equals better. Maybe I'm a cynical old git (actually, there's no maybe about it) but I suspect there are those who prey on the fact and put the price up just to look better than the competition.

Anyway, a brief summary of low distortion capacitor types as I understand them:
Best ones are certain types of ceramics, but they're only available in low values. Equally good are polystyrene, but they're only available in low values too. Next best are polypropylene, which a lot of "audiophile" caps are. However, polypropylenes are also made in vast quantities and sold to a variety of industrial users at much lower prices than their audiophile counterparts. As far as I know, they're just as good - just not labelled "audiophile".
Probably the most common type of capacitor is polyester. They're ok, but not as good as polypropylene.
However, distortion in capacitors is a function of how much voltage is across them. Having a larger value of cap than you need to get a 20Hz LF cut-off puts a lot less voltage across the cap and reduces distortion, hence a larger value of a low grade capacitor can give better results than a smaller value of a high grade capacitor. The problem comes when you're using the cap to filter in the midrange (as opposed to simply DC blocking, as in the case with the Cary), in which case there is a significant signal voltage across the cap and you should use the best type you can.

yes I want to filter in midrange, its all bass and treble at the moment even though I have excellent equipment. Rather than talk about better or higher quality because I think that they must all be pretty good anyway, lets talk about midrange, warm, mellow, rich tone regardless of cost, but still subject to size limitations. I definitely don't assume that higher price is better because different reviewers rate the same cap as low, medium, high quality, they all contradict each others opinion! All I know is that I'm not happy with the current tonal range when swapping the m-dac for the Cary, even though I do prefer the cary it lacks midrange with my speakers and amp. The cary brings more out of the amp, the amp was being limited by the m-dac and is a lot fuller now with the cary DAC! Although I don't fully understand your aversion to boutique caps? Surely higher quality components lead to a more engaging and sophisticated overall sound?

[RothwellAudio]

yes I want to filter in midrange, its all bass and treble at the moment...

Although I don't fully understand your aversion to boutique caps? Surely higher quality components lead to a more engaging and sophisticated overall sound?
The capacitors in the Cary are DC blocking capacitors which are intended to pass all audio frequencies - they aren't doing any midrange filtering. The filters I was referring to are things like RIAA filters and mixing desk tone controls where the capacitor forms part of a network with an LF or HF cut-off in the audio band.
You may perceive what you're hearing as "all bass and treble" but I doubt very much that the frequency response measurements would show any appreciable dip in the midrange. I doubt that any capacitor substitution would make a difference to the frequency response, in which case what you're hearing is some other effect. I'm not sure what brand or type of capacitor would have more midrange, so I would suggest that you start your experiments by obtaining a range of cheap capacitors and seeing what difference there is between them. If you find no noticeable difference at least you will know that the issue lies elsewhere. If you do hear differences you may get some idea of what types sounds best or learn something else from the exercise.

I have no aversion to high quality components at all. However, I don't believe that audio is the only branch of electronics that has a requirement for high quality components. There are many high quality components made for general industrial consumption which are ideal for audio and don't cost a small fortune because they're not labelled "audiophile". It's a question of identifying them.

BTW, you might find this interesting:
http://conradhoffman.com/cap_measurements_100606.html

[the_doc735]

The capacitors in the Cary are DC blocking capacitors which are intended to pass all audio frequencies - they aren't doing any midrange filtering. The filters I was referring to are things like RIAA filters and mixing desk tone controls where the capacitor forms part of a network with an LF or HF cut-off in the audio band.
You may perceive what you're hearing as "all bass and treble" but I doubt very much that the frequency response measurements would show any appreciable dip in the midrange. I doubt that any capacitor substitution would make a difference to the frequency response, in which case what you're hearing is some other effect. I'm not sure what brand or type of capacitor would have more midrange, so I would suggest that you start your experiments by obtaining a range of cheap capacitors and seeing what difference there is between them. If you find no noticeable difference at least you will know that the issue lies elsewhere. If you do hear differences you may get some idea of what types sounds best or learn something else from the exercise.

I have no aversion to high quality components at all. However, I don't believe that audio is the only branch of electronics that has a requirement for high quality components. There are many high quality components made for general industrial consumption which are ideal for audio and don't cost a small fortune because they're not labelled "audiophile". It's a question of identifying them.

BTW, you might find this interesting:
http://conradhoffman.com/cap_measurements_100606.html

Your comments are "food for thought" and I accept what you say. The report you linked has put little question marks in my mind too; it looks as though large capacitors with long flying leads is a bad idea and actually small capacitors with the leads as short as possible to keep stray interference to a minimum is the order of the day! It also suggests that more expensive is not necessarily 'better' which I totally agree with anyway! (on paper at least). If you look at what appears to be an original picture, those red output caps actually fit inside the demarcated area on the PCB and the report you linked seems to suggest that there are indeed good reasons for this; i.e. cary didn't just mark that area out for fun or to look good/cool, it has a purpose. The Aura-T is very expensive @ 3uf (the biggest) £995 each! Whereas the panasonic ...well ...you could probably get a 1000 for that price, but on paper it looks just as good! But I'm not interested in the maths and physics, what matters is the actual sound to the ear! I think getting a bunch of cheap caps is a sensible idea and just 'listening' to the results for myself. Just cramming the largest possible thing in the space is not good engineering!!

[the_doc735]

BTW, what's wrong with the JB cap I suggested in post #25? :lol:

3.3 is lacks bass.
there is no 3,9 or 4uf https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/jb-capacitors.html
4,7 might fit, length OK, DIA 19mm might 'shoe horn'? ~ "BUT!"

"Some "audiophile" capacitors tend to be larger and stray capacitance to surrounding objects like ground planes and chassis can become a concern!".

[the_doc735]

+1 for the JB capacitors for good performance at the price.

For a quality capacitor try Mundorf ZN, such as https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/zn100040-47uf-100v-polypropylene-capacitor-p-1144.html

The size chart is here, though may be too big still :https://hfc-fs.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/mundorf_2011_zn_ps_0.pdf

:)

...Yes they are a bit too big, but not by much
"Some "audiophile" capacitors tend to be larger and stray capacitance to surrounding objects like ground planes and chassis can become a concern!".
http://conradhoffman.com/cap_measurements_100606.html

"Dielectric absorption is possibly more disturbing. There is remarkably little published on the matter. It was a significant issue with early analog computers and some related books covered it. There was also a good paper by Bob Pease, published by National Semiconductor, that may be the best write up to date. I'll speculate that high dielectric absorption is not always serious, since silver-mica capacitors suffer from an excessive amount of it, yet can produce very good sounding RIAA networks. In later measurements of residual distortion, high dielectric absorption doesn't produce high residuals, but I'll still remain suspicious of it until it's proven harmless.

DC leakage measurements should have no effect on anything, as resistance should be very high in any signal capacitor. They do indicate one interesting thing about capacitor construction. With higher dielectric constant materials, less surface area is required and leakage can be almost unmeasurably low. Lower dielectric constant materials like Teflon, in spite of its basic high resistivity, may require so much surface area that leakage, possibly from the slightest contamination or impurity, can increase. DC leakage is probably a good quality control measurement, but not relevant to sound. Note that lower voltage rated caps were measured at 50 VDC instead of 100 VDC.

Film capacitors generally have excellent high frequency capabilities but this is often compromised by large size and long lead lengths. You'll notice that the small radial Panasonic capacitor has a much higher self resonance (9.7 MHz) than the Audience capacitor (4.5 MHz). This isn't due to any failing of the high end Teflon cap, merely the fact that it has several inches of lead length and couldn't be connected near the body. The Panasonic cap has a fraction of an inch of lead length, and the body is smaller. If you need high frequency performance, possibly not for sound, but to maintain stability with high bandwidth semiconductors, keep size and lead length to an absolute minimum. For bypass duty, surface mount will beat leaded every time.

An often neglected parameter is how much capacitance a device presents to nearby objects. A physically large capacitor will have a significant capacitance between it's outer electrode and surrounding parts. There may be undesired coupling to a ground plane. Less appreciated is that the capacitor may not be surrounded with the same wonderful dielectric it was built with. It may well be wrapped with polyester, regardless of what the dielectric is. Thus, the quality of the unwanted capacitance may be poor. It would take a better setup (strict shielded 3-terminal connections to an enclosed measurement chamber) to get a reliable DF number for these low values, so that was ignored on this go around".

[RothwellAudio]

I know you said you weren't interested in maths and physics but here's another page which you might find useful
http://www.keith-snook.info/capacitor-soakage.html
It has links to other articles about capacitors too.

However, there's a danger of over-thinking all this - it's only a couple of capacitors after all. Get some cheap polyesters, some electrolytics (make sure you get the polarity right) and whatever else you can find that doesn't cost much and will fit and try them out. You'll probably learn more than you would would from a thousand posts on forums.

[the_doc735]

You could use these:
https://www.rapidonline.com/jb-capacitors-4-7uf-5-250v-axial-metallized-polypropylene-film-capacitor-08-1312
but they're higher voltage than you need and may still be too big.
This is the full range with size info:
https://www.rapidonline.com/pdf/552455_v1.pdf

In my post #39 I said there was no 3,9/4,0Uf 'JFX' Caps. THIS WAS MY ERROR AND i APOLOGIZE - SORRY!
This is because I was looking at HI-FI COLLECTIVE, NOT RAPIDONLINE, RAPID DO HAVE THE 3,9 / 4,0 Uf, whereas HI-FI Collective DO NOT!

Firebottle seconded your recommendation of the'JFX' quality for good value. Looks impressive on paper too!

Going on the size of the Monacor, these 'JFX' should just about fit the diameter. Length OK.

These are my next move, I think; from 'RAPID'. Thanx for putting me on to these caps! Get them ordered and see what happens OK?

However the JB JFX is marked DOWN on the http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

What would be your thoughts on the 'humble' report?

Actually, the (MKP-060) - 3.9uF 250V Mundorf MCap MKP is about the same price and gets similar reviews and ratings, so why shouldn't I try that? (it's also the same size to fit the space available).

[the_doc735]

...just got an interesting email from dan wemmer of Cary.

He states that the sheer quality of large caps with longer flying leads will circumvent any effects of the report: http://conradhoffman.com/cap_measurements_100606.html i.e. not only overcome the effects of leakage/interference from stray capacitance but improve the overall performance to boot?

your thoughts?

************************************************** ************************************
Hi,

No. That will work. The only degradation may be the extra lead length but the better caps will make up for that.

Technical Support available from 1-5 pm Mondays through Thursday. Closed Fridays
Dan Wemmer | Lead Technician & Technical Support
CARY AUDIO
6301 Chapel Hill Road | Raleigh, NC 27607
919-355-0010 PHONE
919-355-0013 FAX
www.caryaudio.com
[www.carydirect.com][www.carydirect.com www.carydirect.com SHOP NOW!

19902
19903

[RothwellAudio]

If long leads or something else causes instability and produces oscillation or some over weird effect (which is unlikely, imo, though not impossible), having a posh capacitor will not make up for it.

Is it possible you're over thinking this? I haven't seen a circuit diagram for this DAC but I don't think the caps in question are in a feedback loop or anywhere else that might be susceptible to instability. Just bung something else in there and see what happens.

[the_doc735]

If long leads or something else causes instability and produces oscillation or some over weird effect (which is unlikely, imo, though not impossible), having a posh capacitor will not make up for it.

Is it possible you're over thinking this? I haven't seen a circuit diagram for this DAC but I don't think the caps in question are in a feedback loop or anywhere else that might be susceptible to instability. Just bung something else in there and see what happens.

I am grateful for your time and trouble and I have taken note of the A.O.S. advice in this thread and links too! Basically keep it in the allotted space, keep the flying leads short and don't bother with 'boutique' caps. This all makes sense to me and appears to be good solid and sensible advice! However, there are always 2 sides to a discussion and both Nick Lucas of HiFi Collective and Dan Wemmer of Cary have said: "The only degradation may be the extra lead length but the better caps will make up for that, customers who have bought larger caps for the quality have not reported any such issues". That's a dilemma and I guess it's up to me to decide which way to go, I have collected the evidence from both camps and will probably try both concepts to establish what I personally prefer.

[the_doc735]

If long leads or something else causes instability and produces oscillation or some over weird effect, I don't think the caps in question are in a feedback loop or anywhere else that might be susceptible to instability.

Can't I just use EMI/RFI Shielding Tape on the flying leads?

[walpurgis]

Can't I just use EMI/RFI Shielding Tape on the flying leads?

Would you earth the shielding or not?

[RothwellAudio]

... don't bother with 'boutique' caps.
I have collected the evidence from both camps and will probably try both concepts to establish what I personally prefer.

Sorry if you thought I was telling you not to bother with "boutique" capacitors - that isn't exactly what I meant. What I meant was don't make the mistake of assuming there's a nice linear relationship between price and quality. Pay twice as much and get twice the performance? I doubt it. Pay £900 and hundreds of times the performance? Rather less likely.

No, I don't think you have collected any real or serious evidence. You have collected opinions. I've given you mine and you have heard others. At some point you'll have to stop soliciting opinions and do some soldering. Or just leave it as it is.

[the_doc735]

Would you earth the shielding or not?

Hi, yes ground at one end. Is that correct?

[the_doc735]

Sorry if you thought I was telling you not to bother with "boutique" capacitors - that isn't exactly what I meant. What I meant was don't make the mistake of assuming there's a nice linear relationship between price and quality. Pay twice as much and get twice the performance? I doubt it. Pay £900 and hundreds of times the performance? Rather less likely.

No, I don't think you have collected any real or serious evidence. You have collected opinions. I've given you mine and you have heard others. At some point you'll have to stop soliciting opinions and do some soldering. Or just leave it as it is.

OK opinions, not evidence. Do you think the humble report is worthless and why? http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

[walpurgis]

Hi, yes ground at one end. Is that correct?

That's probably what I'd do. But I'd try it unearthed as well to see if there'd be any discernible difference.

[the_doc735]

That's probably what I'd do. But I'd try it unearthed as well to see if there'd be any discernible difference.

All this opens another 'can of worms': can shielding tape be used without grounding? (anyone). I've only seen grounding on braided earth wire, not tape?

[the_doc735]

...interesting that the best JB JSX caps finish in price is were the Mundorf Mcap MKP starts and goes on to hundreds per cap. Does this show the Mundorf superiority, or are mundorf purely praying on the naive hobbyists?

[walpurgis]

All this opens another 'can of worms': can shielding tape be used without grounding? (anyone). I've only seen grounding on braided earth wire, not tape?

I can't see why it would make any difference. You could earth either.

Should I choose to do this, I personally would put thin teflon sleeving on the capacitor wires and then screen with copper foil or braid. At least that can have wires soldered to it for earthing connections.

Desoldering braid is thin, made of copper and often tubular. I have some that would be ideal as a narrow screening braid.

[RothwellAudio]

OK opinions, not evidence. Do you think the humble report is worthless and why? http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html
No, I don't think it's worthless but it is just more subjective evaluation and probably won't help you unless you are prepared to use something based on a subjective opinion you have read on a website.


That's probably what I'd do. But I'd try it unearthed as well to see if there'd be any discernible difference.
How can a screen work if it isn't earthed?


All this opens another 'can of worms': can shielding tape be used without grounding? (anyone). I've only seen grounding on braided earth wire, not tape?
Same question - how can a screen work if it isn't earthed?


I can't see why it would make any difference. You could earth either.

Should I choose to do this, I personally would put thin teflon sleeving on the capacitor wires and then screen with copper foil or braid. At least that can have wires soldered to it for earthing connections.

Desoldering braid is thin, made of copper and often tubular. I have some that would be ideal as a narrow screening braid.
One possible source of braided copper for shielding is to use the braided screen from co-ax cable. It's possible to remove the outer insulation (though you might be better off not removing it) and pull out the center conductor if the cable isn't very long. Some cable is easier to work with than others.

However, all this talk of messing about with screening mesh etc. is probably getting way off what is actually required and over-complicating something that should be very simple.

[the_doc735]

No, I don't think it's worthless but it is just more subjective evaluation and probably won't help you unless you are prepared to use something based on a subjective opinion you have read on a website.
How can a screen work if it isn't earthed?
Same question - how can a screen work if it isn't earthed?
One possible source of braided copper for shielding is to use the braided screen from co-ax cable. It's possible to remove the outer insulation (though you might be better off not removing it) and pull out the center conductor if the cable isn't very long. Some cable is easier to work with than others.
However, all this talk of messing about with screening mesh etc. is probably getting way off what is actually required and over-complicating something that should be very simple.

Clearly you are something of a guru on the Audio front! My mind is beginning to boggle at all the aspects to take into consideration. My secondhand DAC has clearly had several previous owners who have all swapped out parts: e.g.

1) Input power wiring upgraded to cast copper silver plated with Teflon dielectric.
2) Power board dc filter now a Mundorf Supreme (Panasonic removed).
3) Both transformers placed on Neoprene sheets to remove casework resonance.
4) DC filter cap from power board to output board now a Multicap.
5) Dac board supported with a military foam (as used to remove noise in tanks) to prevent vibration.
6) Output capacitors now TRT Dynamicap 5uf (up from the 3,7uF after direct discussions with Cary Audio). Improves bass response (Panasonics removed).
7) Output bypass caps now Rel-Cap TRT Teflon (were Wima originally I think).
8) Output tubes now NOS Mullard 6922 Pearl Cryo Gold Grade Plus (matched and balanced) – costly upgrade.
9) Herbies tube dampeners.

************************************************** ************************************************** ***************************

1) Internal power cable to the mains board has been upgraded to cast stranded copper with PTFE insulation.
2) Earth cable upgraded to solid core copper PTFE insulated.
3) Transformers dampened with Dynamat Extreme.
4) DC filter cap upgraded from the cheapo Panasonic type to Mundorf Supreme,
5) Power cable from the power board to the output board upgraded to solid core copper PTFE wrapped.
6) Dac board support with an acoustic type from used in military tanks. Same foam used as support stilts for the power and output board.
7) Signal wires from the dac board to output board upgraded to pure cast solid silver, PTFE wrapped and shielded cable.
8) On the output board, 10 electrolytic caps have been upgraded from Panasonic to Elna Silmic.
9) The Wima bypass caps were removed and upgraded to RelCap polystyrene caps.
10) Output capacitors were upgraded from Panasonic types to Modwright Oil capacitors (larger uF as suggested by Cary themselves - better bass!).
11) AMR fuse upgrade.
12) Output tubes upgraded to Reflector Military types with Herbie dampeners.

So, I was wondering if you could possibly 'give it the once over' and see if it is optimal in its current state OR if there are any 'improvements' that can be made that would give more "middle, richer, deeper, 3D, spatial detail"; 'enhancements', OR find that it is already at its optimal specification?

You are clearly an expert in these matters and I would appreciate your hands on help to 'ring every last drop out of this design'. (?)

[RothwellAudio]

Clearly you are something of a guru on the Audio front!

You are clearly an expert in these matters and I would appreciate your hands on help to 'ring every last drop out of this design'. (?)

You're very kind but I don't make any claims to be a guru or expert on anything.
Yes, it sounds like your DAC has had plenty of modifications carried out, most of which seem to be swapping capacitors for more expensive capacitors or wires for more expensive wires. Maybe one more capacitor swap will rescue it from being "all bass and treble" but I honestly don't know what capacitors to recommend that would do that.

[sq225917]

I'd suggest an output buffer stage that is load tolerant would be a start. Swapping caps is just a band aid for the technically insufficient.

[Arkless Electronics]

I'd suggest an output buffer stage that is load tolerant would be a start. Swapping caps is just a band aid for the technically insufficient.

;)

[the_doc735]

You're very kind but I don't make any claims to be a guru or expert on anything.
Yes, it sounds like your DAC has had plenty of modifications carried out, most of which seem to be swapping capacitors for more expensive capacitors or wires for more expensive wires. Maybe one more capacitor swap will rescue it from being "all bass and treble" but I honestly don't know what capacitors to recommend that would do that.

Thanks Andrew, no harm in asking - right? Thanks for being honest with me: "I honestly don't know". I like it when people are straight with me, no bullshit! :cool::cool:

[the_doc735]

I'd suggest an output buffer stage that is load tolerant would be a start. Swapping caps is just a band aid for the technically insufficient.

It has output buffer caps already but I don't know if they are load tolerant?

[the_doc735]

;)

It has output buffer caps already but I don't know if they are load tolerant?

[the_doc735]

This is what cary say about Buffering:

The audio output section, responsible for providing the actual musical signals, is based on proven Cary Audio designs for the best sound quality. The DAC-100 audio output uses high speed monolith buffers operated with non-global feedback to ensure optimum sound quality. The DAC-100t audio section consists of two (2) 6922 tubes operated in a non-global feedback configuration. In both cases, the audio section is fed with its own discreet low noise power supply.
Once the digital bitstream is managed it is sent to the digital to analog conversion section, comprised of two (2) ESS Sabre ES9023 24/192 DAC chipsets. These circuits accurately recreate the analog musical signals and send them to the buffered solid state (DAC-100) or vacuum tube (DAC-100t) analog output stages, and then out to the gold-plated RCA or XLR balanced outputs. All of these processes are designed to have no compromises in sound quality, and provide the very best musical reproduction in its price class.
The DAC-100 and DAC-100t provides a buffered hi-performance line level audio section in either solid-state (DAC-100) or tube (DAC-100t). The DAC-100 uses four high speed monolithic non-feedback buffers and the DAC-100t uses two (2) 6922 premium tubes in non-feedback buffer. You can choose either RCA or balanced XLR via the jacks on the rear panel. Using shielded, high-quality interconnect cable is important to reduce the possibility of hum or interference.
Some settings may need to be adjusted depending on many factors. A common one is adjusting the buffering for playback. Many times, setting the buffer to on or max can result in better performance. If you hear a ticking or missing parts of the music, you may have to select a feature of your media player to flush the device buffer on startup and so on.

BASIC SPECIFICATIONS
.................................................. .................................................. ............................................
USB Processor XMOS Asynchronous processing
.................................................. .................................................. ............................................
SP/DIF Input Receiver Wolfson model #WM8805
.................................................. .................................................. ............................................
Digital to Analog Converters 2 X ESS Sabre ES9023
.................................................. .................................................. ............................................
Digital Inputs 5 selectable inputs – (2) coaxial (gold plated), (2) Toslink, (1) USB
.................................................. .................................................. ............................................
Analog Output RCA analog output (gold plated)
XLR Balanced
.................................................. .................................................. ............................................
Input Sample Rates Accepted* 44.1kHz, 48kHz, 88.2 kHz, 96kHz, 176.4kHz, 192kHz
.................................................. .................................................. ............................................
Bit Depths Accepted 16 - 24 bit, LPCM 2-ch audio stream
.................................................. .................................................. ............................................
Power Transformer Toroidal transformer (Digital Supply)
Toroidal transformer (Analog Supply)
.................................................. .................................................. ............................................
Dynamic Range 112dB
.................................................. .................................................. ............................................
Signal to Noise Ratio 109dB
.................................................. .................................................. ............................................
Noise and Hum -101 dB below rated output
.................................................. .................................................. ............................................
Audio Output Level 2.0V RMS
.................................................. .................................................. ............................................
Frequency Response 20Hz – 22kHz
.................................................. .................................................. ............................................
AC Power Requirements 120 VAC @ 50/60 Hz
240 VAC @ 50/60 Hz
.................................................. .................................................. ............................................
Tube Compliment 2 – 6922 tubes
(DAC-100t)
.................................................. .................................................. ............................................
Dimensions 15.5” L X 17.25” W X 3.5” H
.................................................. .................................................. ............................................
Weight 21 lbs.
.................................................. .................................................. ............................................

[the_doc735]

One possible source of braided copper for shielding is to use the braided screen from co-ax cable. It's possible to remove the outer insulation (though you might be better off not removing it) and pull out the center conductor if the cable isn't very long. Some cable is easier to work with than others.

...would the braided screen need to be grounded/earthed?

I've not seen any caps earthed this way on thousands of photos! Only basic short circuit screening.

[the_doc735]

I can't see why it would make any difference. You could earth either.

Should I choose to do this, I personally would put thin teflon sleeving on the capacitor wires and then screen with copper foil or braid. At least that can have wires soldered to it for earthing connections.

Desoldering braid is thin, made of copper and often tubular. I have some that would be ideal as a narrow screening braid.


...do you have a pic please?
cheers!

[Arkless Electronics]

It has output buffer caps already but I don't know if they are load tolerant?

I couldn't possibly comment..... well I could... but don't these days:D

[anthonyTD]

Ohh go on, you know you want to!:eek::D
I couldn't possibly comment..... well I could... but don't these days:D

[Arkless Electronics]

Ohh go on, you know you want to!:eek::D

Careful now! Down with this sort of thing!

[the_doc735]

I couldn't possibly comment..... well I could... but don't these days:D

:doh::scratch::mental: :confused:

...thanks for your help!

[the_doc735]

Ohh go on, you know you want to!:eek::D

yes, go on, go on, go on, go on ;)

[the_doc735]

Careful now! Down with this sort of thing!

:rfl::rfl::rfl:

[the_doc735]

I'd suggest an output buffer stage that is load tolerant would be a start. Swapping caps is just a band aid for the technically insufficient.

hi,

how do you know it doesn't already have an output buffer stage that is load tolerant? cheers!

[Jimbo]

Capacitor review. This guy is dedicated!
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

[the_doc735]

Capacitor review. This guy is dedicated!
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

yes, he certainly is :reel:

[Firebottle]

According to the Cary data the output impedance is only 8 ohms, that is very low for a triode buffer so I am a little suspicious.

As the DAC offers XLR balanced as well as RCA outputs I suspect the output is from a solid state buffer.
Either way if the 8 ohm output impedance is to be believed then you should have no problem with any load.

Also as stated by Cary you only need low voltage capacitors, the supply voltage on the 6922 valves is only 24V according to the data.

:)

[the_doc735]

According to the Cary data the output impedance is only 8 ohms, that is very low for a triode buffer so I am a little suspicious.

As the DAC offers XLR balanced as well as RCA outputs I suspect the output is from a solid state buffer.
Either way if the 8 ohm output impedance is to be believed then you should have no problem with any load.

Also as stated by Cary you only need low voltage capacitors, the supply voltage on the 6922 valves is only 24V according to the data.

:)

yes, I only need low voltage caps but Cary also said there's no issue with using 100, 250, 400, 630, 800, volt caps as long as it's above the rated "24v +" it should be fine. Can you recommend any 25v-100v caps that are of a quality that befits the Cary 100t DAC? Highly reputable etc? The jantzen z-cap superior has very good reviews everywhere and only around £15 each (3,9 Uf) "BUT!" they are big and 800v!!

[Firebottle]

I cannot find any quality polypropylene capacitors rated at less than 250V :doh:

[the_doc735]

I cannot find any quality polypropylene capacitors rated at less than 250V :doh:

Yep! ~ that's my point!

the current ones are 250v and the previous ones were 310v (afaik)

Cheers! :)

[the_doc735]

interesting opinion here:

http://aeaaudio.com/audiophile-quality-capacitors-going-beyond-the-simple-re-cap/

[the_doc735]

"Is it possible that at one end (polyester) we get the phrase, "hard and gritty", and at the other end (polypropylene) we get, "sucks the life out of the music"? Perhaps somewhere in the middle (Teflon?) lies just the right amount of "edge"? The engineer in me wants to reject all of this because the residuals are so small, but when you have a huge amount of anecdotal evidence, it's wise to at least speculate. I believe this would also be consistent with the almost universal high end rejection of amplifiers having near zero harmonic output, though admittedly the ability of people to distinguish different amplifiers in double blind testing has been shown nearly impossible".

Conrad R. Hoffman

[the_doc735]

You're very kind but I don't make any claims to be a guru or expert on anything.
Yes, it sounds like your DAC has had plenty of modifications carried out, most of which seem to be swapping capacitors for more expensive capacitors or wires for more expensive wires. Maybe one more capacitor swap will rescue it from being "all bass and treble" but I honestly don't know what capacitors to recommend that would do that.

Taken your advice in the end and ordered some JB-JSX 4,7Uf - 250v polypropylene; ±5%; Ø18.5x26mm; -55÷85°C; ...from T.M.E. http://www.tme.eu/gb/details/jsx-4.7u_250/audio-polypropylene-capacitors/jb-capacitors/jsx-47u250-5/

ordered some JB-JSX 4,7Uf - 250v polypropylene; ±5%; Ø18.5x26mm; -55÷85°C; ...from T.M.E.
Just 'Google' jb jsx capacitor review! "best bang for the buck?"

[the_doc735]

If caps are too large to mount horizontally is it OK to mount them vertically ?

[the_doc735]

nice paper here:

http://www.maxpierson.me/2009/03/17/rant-audio-capacitors-are-bogus/

[struth]

If caps are too large to mount horizontally is it OK to mount them vertically ?

If they fit, yes, although put a sleeve on the long bare wire

[the_doc735]

If they fit, yes, although put a sleeve on the long bare wire

:youtheman:

[the_doc735]

surely, this shielding can be done to reduce inductance? (with a further piece running across the 4 caps to ground, [with conductive adhesive] )?

19946
19947

[Jimbo]

Just had some polypropylene caps replaced in the equalisation circuitry of my phono stage and I listened quite carefully as they ran in and there was a significant change.

Listening from fresh I found them a bit thin but as the hours went by they developed a much fuller bass and the top end became more detailed and clean. After about 50 hours they seem to have stopped changing and the sound is now very good indeed with excellent depth and width to the sound stage and detail in the sound stage I had never heard before. I would not have thought changing caps could make so much difference.:scratch:

[Firebottle]

Polyprops are what you need for best, take my word for it :)

Onwards and upwards, it just gets better ;)

[the_doc735]

Just had some polypropylene caps replaced in the equalisation circuitry of my phono stage and I listened quite carefully as they ran in and there was a significant change.

Listening from fresh I found them a bit thin but as the hours went by they developed a much fuller bass and the top end became more detailed and clean. After about 50 hours they seem to have stopped changing and the sound is now very good indeed with excellent depth and width to the sound stage and detail in the sound stage I had never heard before. I would not have thought changing caps could make so much difference.:scratch:

Hi, what have you got now and what were they before please?

[the_doc735]

Polyprops are what you need for best, take my word for it :)

Onwards and upwards, it just gets better ;)

I agree, any preferences in 'brand/price? OR is it all about: internet 'papers', forum opinion, any other source of evidence, size, capacitance, voltage, Tan Delta (DF), Q Value (resonance), ESR, reactance, ripple, impedance, longevity, leakage etc? (i.e. the important parameters!)

[RothwellAudio]

Polyprops are what you need for best, take my word for it :)


I think he already has polypropylene caps in there
http://www.wilmslow-audio.co.uk/39-fd-monacor-mkp-capacitor-1122-p.asp

However, if I understand this thread correctly the OP seems to have decided they're no good because they're too cheap.

[the_doc735]

I think he already has polypropylene caps in there
http://www.wilmslow-audio.co.uk/39-fd-monacor-mkp-capacitor-1122-p.asp

However, if I understand this thread correctly the OP seems to have decided they're no good because they're too cheap.

No, I can't find any useful data about them, unlike others (elna, black gate, nichicon, solen, wima, vishay, panasonic etc.) that have been endorsed somewhere, also Cary themselves recommended that I 'roll them out', it was they who said that they look cheap and nasty. Like you I believe things like Mundorf are superior! Would you use Monacor or Mundorf and why? I believe you have already intimated your personal preference in an earlier post? I.M.O. I do believe there are better quality products out there!

[the_doc735]

JB - JSX data

19964

19971

http://www.jbcapacitors.com/pdf/JSX-Superior-Metallized-Polypropylene-Film-Capacitors-Axial-Test-Reviews.pdf

[the_doc735]

replacing-passive-components-to-improve-sound-quality

https://www.bext.com/replacing-passive-components-to-improve-sound-quality/

[fatmarley]

replacing-passive-components-to-improve-sound-quality

https://www.bext.com/replacing-passive-components-to-improve-sound-quality/

I don't fully agree with that.

Replacing electrolytics with polyprops doesn't always improve the sound and can quite often do the reverse.

The guy said to avoid Tantalum capacitors but I've tried just about everything In the feedback loop of my Onix OA21 amp and Tantalums sound better than anything (low leakage types sound best to my ears).

Look Inside a lot of high-end amps and you'll often see they are full of electrolytic capacitors without a single large value polyprop In sight.

[the_doc735]

I don't fully agree with that.

Replacing electrolytics with polyprops doesn't always improve the sound and can quite often do the reverse.

The guy said to avoid Tantalum capacitors but I've tried just about everything In the feedback loop of my Onix OA21 amp and Tantalums sound better than anything (low leakage types sound best to my ears).

Look Inside a lot of high-end amps and you'll often see they are full of electrolytic capacitors without a single large value polyprop In sight.

Hi Matt!

..yes, its funny, the more I read on the internet the more I realise its a 50/50% 'split' of opinion for and against all kinds of 'mods', for everything that is suggested there is always someone will a counter argument in disagreement - LOL :lol: