SLAMMM

[freem]

Is it possible to get gut wrenching slam in a small room without loose overblown bass. What are the important ingredients.

[John]

First question how smal is small
My room is 4m x 3m and I get get kick drums that kick but you really have to use the space in your room well. Also natural absorbing materials like carpets etc can help if you put big speakers in. There are few speakers that that also do not need to much backroom such as the WAD speakers. Looking at Marco Tannoys I imagine they do not need to much space behind either but they are not cheap!
However you cannot totally get away from the fact the smaller your room the harder it will be to get what you after.
Pictrures of your set up and room may help
Things to think about room layout
Good amplifier that controls bass well (basically your system)
Acoustics of the room
Speaker size

[freem]

First question how smal is small
My room is 4m x 3m and I get get kick drums that kick but you really have to use the space in your room well. Also natural absorbing materials like carpets etc can help if you put big speakers in. There are few speakers that that also do not need to much backroom such as the WAD speakers. Looking at Marco Tannoys I imagine they do not need to much space behind either but they are not cheap!
However you cannot totally get away from the fact the smaller your room the harder it will be to get what you after.
Pictrures of your set up and room may help
Things to think about room layout
Good amplifier that controls bass well (basically your system)
Acoustics of the room
Speaker size

My room is 13 feet by 10 with fitted carpet and acoustic panels. Two walls are partition, one with door and the other two are breezeblock, one with a window. I use ATC 100asl which work well in that the bass isn't overblown, but would still like more slam. Maybe 150asl's would be the answer but I am afraid of overloading the room.

[John]

Nice speakers Those should have enough SLAMM. I know to get the best out of those speakers you need good clean mains so it be worth putting in a dedicated mains spur. Try messing around with position as well. There are few here with lots more experience with these speakers like HIFI Dave and can advise better

[Primalsea]

You could always buy a sub woofer with a large phase plug and sit on it :eek:

Stay away from Prodigy tracks though or you will end up evacuating.

[freem]

Nice speakers Those should have enough SLAMM. I know to get the best out of those speakers you need good clean mains so it be worth putting in a dedicated mains spur. Try messing around with position as well. There are few here with lots more experience with these speakers like HIFI Dave and can advise better

Thanks for your replies. I do have a dedicated spur and also a Power Plant. I wonder if the partition walls are the problem.

[hifi_dave]

It's difficult to be certain with these things, you can only suck it and see. I don't think the partition walls are the problem, as my demo room is all partition walls and I get plenty of slam when the system is up to it. Actually, it's an ancient timber-framed barn with a concrete, tiled floor but the principle is similar.

I no longer have large ATC's but when I did, from the 100 active up, they all had 'slam' if not subterannean extension. What is the rest of your system ?

[Beechwoods]

You could always buy a sub woofer with a large phase plug and sit on it :eek:

What kind of plug was that again Paul? :whistle:

[freem]

It's difficult to be certain with these things, you can only suck it and see. I don't think the partition walls are the problem, as my demo room is all partition walls and I get plenty of slam when the system is up to it. Actually, it's an ancient timber-framed barn with a concrete, tiled floor but the principle is similar.

I no longer have large ATC's but when I did, from the 100 active up, they all had 'slam' if not subterannean extension. What is the rest of your system ?

McIntosh c2200 pre, Marantz SA-7Si on Vertex platforms, Technics1210 with Timestep mods, SME 309, Musicmaker3, cables Missing Link cryo.

[Primalsea]

What kind of plug was that again Paul? :whistle:

A PHASE PLUG Nick, dont you know they only have an effect on the lower end.
:)

[John]

Paul those ATC should have plenty of slam
I just wonder if one power plant is enough those Active ATC do suck up a lot of power
I am not sure if bigger ATC will solve this

[Beechwoods]

A PHASE PLUG Nick, dont you know they only have an effect on the lower end.
:)

*Cough* ;)

[DSJR]

My room is 13 feet by 10 with fitted carpet and acoustic panels. Two walls are partition, one with door and the other two are breezeblock, one with a window. I use ATC 100asl which work well in that the bass isn't overblown, but would still like more slam. Maybe 150asl's would be the answer but I am afraid of overloading the room.

As you probably know, I used ATC 100A's in a room 9' by around 12' 6" and the only reason why they didn't "SLAM" like real life was that the bass rolled away gently below 50Hz or so. Port or not, they acted like a good IB design..

I appreciate the SL 100A's have a substantially different port tuning involving a 90 degree gutter-pipe or similar, so you may have a little more extension with a reduction in the slight tubbiness the previous 50A's and 100A's could exhibit in a smaller room.

If you can get round the "audiophoolery," try an equaliser with a gentle boost below 60Hz. I had a cheapo JVC 10 band one which was "donated" in a house move, but this did a fantastic job of giving you that kick-drum push in the stomach and in my setup with AVI preamp (eq in the tape circuit) I barely heard the equaliser's insertion (a touch leaner when set flat but very small nonetheless). A Linnie friend who visited nearly had apoplexy when he saw the equaliser though.

All this happened after a 1994 King Crimson gig at the RAH, their flown PA sounding incredible without deafening. the track I used was "Thrak" IIRC.

The above works great on CD and other digital sources, but could severely upset many LP sources. the ATC's are filtered below 20Hz IIRC but even then...

In a room your size, the 150A's may be too much overkill, but Ashley demo'd some 200A's at the time (two 12" bass drivers) and although the bass *response* was much the same as the 100A's, the extra sensitivity caused by two bass units and the separate amp pack which offered yet more power than the built in one gave dynamics with quality that I've not heard before or since from speakers able to be used domestically (although some huge Cerwin Vega's with two 15" bass drivers were fun as I recall). The 200A's and even more so the 300A's are just in a different ballpark in terms of low-colouration dynamics from any domestic system (apart from other "really big monitor" systems used domestically), even if they may just lack that crystaline delicacy that SET style setups give.

[edit] - Doesn't/didn't someone on here have the huge DMT style Tannoys with two 15" drivers (I should Coco ?)? I believe he uses/used a big MC2 pro amp to very good effect.. Hope I have this correct, although it could have been on 'Wigwam..

I don't know if ATC still have their dem room, as they're now a smaller concern from their mid 1990's heyday, but if they have (or Bob Polley allows home dems as Ashley did so graciously) then explain your "problem" and see if they can dem the 200A's to you. I understand that one or two longer established dealers may have 150A's on dem (Cornflake W1 and one in Scotland I think), but I understand there are a few ATC dealers with little to no stock selling online, so you may have to phone Bob to find out..

Good luck.

[freem]

As you probably know, I used ATC 100A's in a room 9' by around 12' 6" and the only reason why they didn't "SLAM" like real life was that the bass rolled away gently below 50Hz or so. Port or not, they acted like a good IB design..

I appreciate the SL 100A's have a substantially different port tuning involving a 90 degree gutter-pipe or similar, so you may have a little more extension with a reduction in the slight tubbiness the previous 50A's and 100A's could exhibit in a smaller room.

If you can get round the "audiophoolery," try an equaliser with a gentle boost below 60Hz. I had a cheapo JVC 10 band one which was "donated" in a house move, but this did a fantastic job of giving you that kick-drum push in the stomach and in my setup with AVI preamp (eq in the tape circuit) I barely heard the equaliser's insertion (a touch leaner when set flat but very small nonetheless). A Linnie friend who visited nearly had apoplexy when he saw the equaliser though.

All this happened after a 1994 King Crimson gig at the RAH, their flown PA sounding incredible without deafening. the track I used was "Thrak" IIRC.

The above works great on CD and other digital sources, but could severely upset many LP sources. the ATC's are filtered below 20Hz IIRC but even then...

In a room your size, the 150A's may be too much overkill, but Ashley demo'd some 200A's at the time (two 12" bass drivers) and although the bass *response* was much the same as the 100A's, the extra sensitivity caused by two bass units and the separate amp pack which offered yet more power than the built in one gave dynamics with quality that I've not heard before or since from speakers able to be used domestically (although some huge Cerwin Vega's with two 15" bass drivers were fun as I recall). The 200A's and even more so the 300A's are just in a different ballpark in terms of low-colouration dynamics from any domestic system (apart from other "really big monitor" systems used domestically), even if they may just lack that crystaline delicacy that SET style setups give.

[edit] - Doesn't/didn't someone on here have the huge DMT style Tannoys with two 15" drivers (I should Coco ?)? I believe he uses/used a big MC2 pro amp to very good effect.. Hope I have this correct, although it could have been on 'Wigwam..

I don't know if ATC still have their dem room, as they're now a smaller concern from their mid 1990's heyday, but if they have (or Bob Polley allows home dems as Ashley did so graciously) then explain your "problem" and see if they can dem the 200A's to you. I understand that one or two longer established dealers may have 150A's on dem (Cornflake W1 and one in Scotland I think), but I understand there are a few ATC dealers with little to no stock selling online, so you may have to phone Bob to find out..

Good luck.

Would this be the same as using the tone control on my preamp.

[DSJR]

Not really, as most bass contols start working too high in frequency (below 600Hz usually). You need to keep the blass flat to well below 100Hz and only boost below 30 - 40Hz.

You could always buy a decent sub (the AVI one is cheap enough) and drive it from (hopefully) a second set of variable outputs on your preamp so the volume of both sub and speakers goes up and down together. if the rolloff on the sub is set low to 40hz or lower), then it'll have no affect at all on the ATC bass "proper" but will just add that extra "kick" to the very lowest frequencies as re-inforcement.

Stud walls are great for filtering out bass and this may be one reason why some larger US made speakers take off in the bass when used over here in the UK (I understand many US homes are timber frame with stud walls which absorb bass well.. We often use concrete boxes or springy suspended floors and ceilings....

[Themis]

I don't know about AVIs but a lot of subs have RCA and high level inputs/outputs, so they are easy to integrate.

Btw, Dave, the main page of AVI has a very funny article (of PPonk from Computer Asylum)... I think provocation is leading them to discredit. So many inaccurate opinions presented as facts on the main page is a pity. :(

[DSJR]

How do you know these opinions are innacurate???

P Ponk is known to us........

[Themis]

How do you know these opinions are innacurate??
How do I know that 256bps is distinguishable from lossless ? Are you kidding ? :scratch:
And how do I know that "this is good news for Steve Jobs who will rule the world" ? :lol:
Geez, Dave, I've been into Internet from its birth (it's my job, nothing to be proud about) and know a bit about streaming, believe me. But what do you want me to do about phrases mixing up 'little discs in lonely rooms" and "320bps experimental radios in Hungary" ? Am I supposed to laugh or cry that someone just discovered that MP4 is much better than MP3 (AAC is almost ten years old, btw) ?

Cheers :cool:

[Rare Bird]

Geez, Dave, I've been into Internet from its birth (it's my job, nothing to be proud about) and know a bit about streaming, believe me.



I know that's why i constantly pester yer :lolsign:

[DSJR]

How do I know that 256bps is distinguishable from lossless ? Are you kidding ? :scratch:
And how do I know that "this is good news for Steve Jobs who will rule the world" ? :lol:
Geez, Dave, I've been into Internet from its birth (it's my job, nothing to be proud about) and know a bit about streaming, believe me. But what do you want me to do about phrases mixing up 'little discs in lonely rooms" and "320bps experimental radios in Hungary" ? Am I supposed to laugh or cry that someone just discovered that MP4 is much better than MP3 (AAC is almost ten years old, btw) ?

Cheers :cool:

OK, I take it that you've actually compared 256Kbps with lossless without knowing which was which? I can play you a rather good remix of a favourite track that is a 128Kbs stream off a very carefully re-mastered CASSETTE that sat in a studio unloved for thirty years... Once re-bodged into a CD, the results are very good indeed and the only way I can tell its humble origins is the rolloff above 15KHz when viewed on a Wave editor...

Look, I don't wish to buy any more low bitrate downloads than I have to and, to be fair, I've found FLACS of the "CD Deleted" albums I most need, but to challenge those AVI comments is amusing to me when so many people on here love the 10% plus distortion at end of vinyl side, together with the bandwidth limiting and low S/N ratio of typical LP records made "commercially" by the major record companies... Doesn't stop me enjoying the music though, but it's still there..

:peace:

[Themis]

OK, I take it that you've actually compared 256Kbps with lossless without knowing which was which?
You mean if I don't know the original ? Certainly. It won't happen though on my favorite records. ;)
Your cassete deserved perhaps a 1000kbps conversion, no ?

Dave, I'm not saying that 128kbps is not "good" or not "good enough" (whatever this may mean) but saying (not you) that it is indistinguishable from lossless... this is not a fact. It's a wish. ;)

And what about all the rest of the article ? :scratch:

[DSJR]

Like I said, Radio 3 at 192Kbs can sound extremely impressive as long as it's a live feed or an impeccable source. Where 192 falls down is in the reproduction of some presenter's voices and in reproduction of compressed and distorted sources. 256Kbs was thought much better and more forgiving, so why they settled on a more compromised stream I don't know, let alone reducing it even further to 128Kbs..

I haven't listened to streaming radio from eastern Europe, but am I right in saying that they've adopted a superior DAB streaming system (DAB+ ?)


I'd better back off before I cause myself some bother :D

[Themis]

Like I said, Radio 3 at 192Kbs can sound extremely impressive as long as it's a live feed or an impeccable source. Where 192 falls down is in the reproduction of some presenter's voices and in reproduction of compressed and distorted sources. 256Kbs was thought much better and more forgiving, so why they settled on a more compromised stream I don't know, let alone reducing it even further to 128Kbs..
For a radio it's ok. I listen to greek radios at... 48kbps without bother so... ;)
But I wouldn't want my digital library to get to 256kbps... why should I ?
Low-Fi is not a crime, mind you. I'm aware that not everybody is into this hobby.

Tell me Dave, as you seem to know better AVI : are they slowly getting specialized into lowfi systems ? Is it deliberate or a -kind of- reaction to hifi ?
And who is this pponk, anyway ?


I haven't listened to streaming radio from eastern Europe, but am I right in saying that they've adopted a superior DAB streaming system (DAB+ ?)


I'd better back off before I cause myself some bother :D
:lolsign: I had forgotten about this DAB debate here ! :D

[DSJR]

As I said before, AVI are convinced they are getting a better sound and performance from ADM9.1's with or without sub than they've ever achieved before, mainly because of the active nature of the speakers with the amps designed explicitly to ONLY drive the load they're given, rather than the usual overkill situation with conventional amps driving (or not) a huge variety of passive speakers out there in the marketplace.

The Trio speakers may have a bigger sound, but according to AVI, the passive crossover gets in the way and causes phase and overlap distortions lacking in the ADM9.1's. At present, they don't feel an active three way would sell, although Ash commented on HDD (IIRC) that the Chinese may be interested. A big three way active from AVI would be very interesting and rather more up our streets I think...

Going active *can* get over so many problems in passive systems, but you have to take a holistic attitude if you want to do it properly, as Meridian have done for some time (yes, and ATC too - especially ATC with their quirky three way models' demands...)

So there you go. I haven't heard ADM9.1's despite them being an excellent replacement to my ATC 20ASL Pro's which cost nearly four times as much (total engineering battleship overkill by comparison).

If I was going to criticise one thing about the ADM9.1's (unheard), it's that the balance is biased lean, rather than "BBC Warm," which would allow lower listening levels in line with our ear's response and sensitivity issues. BBC legacy speakers take this into account, so even with my 36 year old BC2's, I can listen at low levels and still "get" everything. The little active ATC's I had until recently needed to be pushed hard to get any bass weight (even with the control turned up a couple of notches) and the balance was still "monitor relentless" at high levels, especially when compared to the tiny, exquisite Harbeth HLP3-ESR driven by the Croft series 7 at HiFi dave's...

PP? Try

http://grumpyoldarts.com

[Steve Toy]

If you want decent bass slam in a small room you need to look further back in the chain than the amps, speakers and room interaction. You'll need a top-notch DAC playing either lossless files into high bit-rates, a well-engineered CD transport to feed the DAC or a decent well-enginered turntable into a top-notch pre all well isolated and fed by clean mains with optimised PSUs feeding every active component before you even reach the power amp/speaker stage.

[Mr. C]

Arh Steve, you remeber a little 'skin bashing session' a wee while back then?

[MartinT]

It seems to me that SLAMM is a function of your system's capabilities and your room in pretty much equal measure.

Your equipment must be tight and extended in the bass, not something that all equipment can handle and not apparent in many non-extended systems. Here a good power supply is essential (I use a Powerplant), power amplifier with enough headroom and damping factor to do the job and speakers capable of going down to air-movement frequencies without loss of level (mine measure flat down to 25Hz). It is vital that the amp can control the bass driver(s) otherwise you'll get floppy overblown lower frequencies and you are more likely to load the room up prematurely.

The room itself needs treatment - all rooms do. I'm using four TubeTraps, a SubTrap (although I don't use a sub any more) and three PicturePanels as well as quite a lot of soft furnishings. All of this should 'suck up' the area between 20-80Hz or so and tighten up bass so that individual notes can be easily distinguished.

The result is that, up to the point where I can load up even my room, bass frequencies are deep and individual, air is moved to an alarming degree but kick drums and such make a visceral impact without the whole thing sounding soggy. It isn't easy to achieve and I've failed with previous systems and rooms. My current setup is the best I've achieved so far.

[Snoopdog]

I agree with Martin, having enjoyed last Sunday afternoon at his abode, listening to some music containing low frequencies which left me with a nose bleed and ruptured spleen!;)