Radio aeriel questions

[The Vinyl Adventure]

I gotta get Roy (we give him work at the shop so he does cheap work for us aeriel man) out to sort out my tv aeriel so while he is here I want him to fix me up some sort of radio one too I'm currently using a sansui 317 (as pointed out to me by chris (tgw) on eBay a month back) I have wired it in to the amp but not even plugged an indoor aeriel yet. Now I'm wondering, based on the forthcoming demise of fm, what the best type of aeriel to get is?
Now I currently also get a sound, that to me, is better than any dab I have heard from my humax freesat box.
So do I get a fm aeriel and just accept that it is going to be pointless in a few years and then rely on freesat for my radio listening? or do I get (if there is such a thing) an aeriel that will work for both fm and dab in the hope that dab gets better when they switch off fm?
I'm sure Roy will have his recomendation but I'm interested in what you learned folks take on the matter is?
Maybe I have only heard shit dab radios, and that's why my freesat box kills them?

[Ali Tait]

We just use the Sky box for tv now,so I replaced the loft-mounted TV aerial with an FM one from Maplins for the Accuphase.About 15 quid,and does the job nicely.

[DSJR]

In the early days, DAB could sound stunningly good on radio 3, but the data stream of 192Kb/S mas only marginal if the source material had any distortion, as the compression system had difficulty differentiating between music and distortion (256 was much better apparently but not taken up). These days, DAB is really the new Medium Wave and should be regarded as such..

Regarding FM, has it really been set in stone that it's giong to end? How many new cars have DAB radios fitted? I know there are many good aerial makers out there and your fitter will know what's best for your locale I reckon.

I do have a very soft spot for Ron Smith's aerials. I'm not saying you should be a Naim sheep and buy a huge Galaxie (deliberate spelling), but Ron knows his stuff (ex radar engineer post WW2) and even his humbler models are better than many others. I used an Orion 8 with no difficulties 35 miles from the transmitters.

Hope this helps a bit..

[The Grand Wazoo]

I'd agree with Dave's assessment Hamish. Actually, a 3 or 4 element aerial on your TV mast shouldn't add much at all to the bill for your TV aerial.

I was expecting to have an FM aerial fitted months ago, but it didn't happen till New Year's Eve. I didn't want to spend too much as this is only a rented place. The guy fitting it for me was also doing some TV aerial work and we tried a lot of options for feeds to several tuners. Of course, I paid for his time as well as the kit we ended up using & he was here for the best part of the whole working day - it came to £230, which I thought was pretty good really. It'd take a bloody sight more than £230 to get me on the roof in that weather just once, never mind the number of times he went up!

One thing that was quite interesting was that when we were trying to feed my Accuphase tuner & my Yamaha reciever, we tried comparing a 3-element device feeding the Accuphase, & an omni feeding the Yamaha. Then we tried splitting the feed from the 3-element. The result of the test was that the split feed still gave bags more gain to both of them than the omni was giving the Yamaha.

We tried larger arrays as well, but the benefits to be had were minimal compared to the cost.

[Ali Tait]

The Accuphase worked fine with the tv aerial,but the FM one did pull in more stations and gave better signal readings.It is quite a sensitive beast though.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

So in simple terms
don't worry about fm's demise, it might not happen thatsoon anyway and get Roy to fit a 3 element radio aeriel on the tv aeriel mast? I'm actually on the side of a hill and from the roof of the house I'm probably 10-15 miles from the transmitter in Malvern! To be fair with a decent scope you could probably see the bloody thing!

[The Vinyl Adventure]

... Well maybe not... But you get my point, there is nothing between th roof of my house and the transmitter...

[SteveW]

Still no regrets here from getting hold of a Galaxie whilst I still could.. made a big difference after two roof mounted, (an omni circular thing and a 4 element). Not only that, but the galaxi is in the loft and still pulling in 50-60db compared with 23db for the other two.

I have the contact details somewhere..

[The Grand Wazoo]

All things being equal, I'd go for a bigger array, but in this situation I'm getting full deflection on my Accuphase strength meter & the Yamaha is reading 80dB's

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/4711/signalstrength.jpg

[Spectral Morn]

There was an article in a recent Hi-Fi world that suggests a growing rebellion among Fm broadcasters about the switch to BAD (DAB)- (not the BBC of course) so I for one do not worry, now, as much as I was.

Get a good signal into it Hamish and enjoy. Best thing I ever did was fit a good aerial into the loft...well worth it for all my tuners.


Regards D S D L

[SteveW]

Curses Batman...full deflection and 80 db's.

Damn..

[The Grand Wazoo]

......and all that without sliding down anyone's pole!!

[Primalsea]

I have has success in simple dipoles made from a wooden baton with lengths of copper pipe strapped to it. A FM dipole should be mounted vertically and each copper pipe should be the length of that of a simple extendable antenna found on portable FM radios. A DAB antenna should be mounted horizontally and the pipes should be roughly 2.5 feet. I just stuck mine in the lost and got decent results and I live in a totally crap area of any kind of reception TV, FM and DAB.

Dipoles are not the best but the do work well and cost almost nothing to make if you have a baton and bits of pipe laying around. I just searched on google and found the calculations for the lengths of pipe needed.

It may not be your sort of thing to muck around with bits of pipe but I thought I would mention it.

[Rare Bird]

All things being equal, I'd go for a bigger array, but in this situation I'm getting full deflection on my Accuphase strength meter & the Yamaha is reading 80dB's

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/4711/signalstrength.jpg

Chris
Did they make that Yammi CR1020 in black? i ask cos my old Yammi CT7000 tuner was black, that was one sexy momma, one of my foolish moves selling it.

[The Grand Wazoo]

I don't think so Andre. The two had almost the same period of production, both finishing in '79. I think the black finish on the tuner was only introduced in '79, maybe '78. I never heard of a black 1020 though.

And yes, you're right. You never should have sold a thing like that!

[Mike Reed]

HAMISH,

Possibly a good idea to find out your nearest transmitter; even its output level if you can. If you're close (within ten miles, say) and don't have high ground or other nasties in the way, you'll probably get away with a 4 or 6 element common or garden array.

I endorse comments about Ron Smith's aerials:- I had a Galaxie 23 on a 12 foot pole 50 feet above the pavement in Ramsgate for my Naim 101 and 01.

Currently I enjoy better reception here in Norwich on a nondesript 6 element pointing to the transmitter mast some 9 miles distant.

It really depends on your location/area/reception potential, but if you're gonna put one in the loft, you'll need a much more sensitive (and costly) one.

I don't know of a tuner less sensitive than an 01, so you shouldn't need to go over the top with Accuphase or any other Japanese (or other) tuner. Get CT100 equivalent coax (it IS better by far from the usual screened crap) and take it straight from aerial to tuner: no breaks or splitting..

I could live without any source except radio, and it has ever been thus since the sixties and the John Peel programme.

[Spectral Morn]

HAMISH,

Possibly a good idea to find out your nearest transmitter; even its output level if you can. If you're close (within ten miles, say) and don't have high ground or other nasties in the way, you'll probably get away with a 4 or 6 element common or garden array.

I endorse comments about Ron Smith's aerials:- I had a Galaxie 23 on a 12 foot pole 50 feet above the pavement in Ramsgate for my Naim 101 and 01.

Currently I enjoy better reception here in Norwich on a nondesript 6 element pointing to the transmitter mast some 9 miles distant.

It really depends on your location/area/reception potential, but if you're gonna put one in the loft, you'll need a much more sensitive (and costly) one.

I don't know of a tuner less sensitive than an 01, so you shouldn't need to go over the top with Accuphase or any other Japanese (or other) tuner. Get CT100 equivalent coax (it IS better by far from the usual screened crap) and take it straight from aerial to tuner: no breaks or splitting..

I could live without any source except radio, and it has ever been thus since the sixties and the John Peel programme.

Hi Mike from where ? I want to rewire my aerial set up soon too.

Anyone know where you can get an FM aerial switcher...not a splitter but a no loss (if such a thing exists ) switcher.


Regards D S D L

[The Grand Wazoo]

Hi Mike from where ? I want to rewire my aerial set up soon too.

Anyone know where you can get an FM aerial switcher...not a splitter but a no loss (if such a thing exists ) switcher.


Regards D S D L

Neil,
A lot of years ago, I built a switching unit for aerials - I took lots of advice from people who knew better than me but, I'm ashamed to say, I can't remember a single word of it. I still own the unit and when it turns up, it's yours. However, don't hold your breath as my possessions are spread across 2 counties!! If someone else comes up with an alternative in the meantime then grab it.
Cheers

[Spectral Morn]

Neil,
A lot of years ago, I built a switching unit for aerials - I took lots of advice from people who knew better than me but, I'm ashamed to say, I can't remember a single word of it. I still own the unit and when it turns up, it's yours. However, don't hold your breath as my possessions are spread across 2 counties!! If someone else comes up with an alternative in the meantime then grab it.
Cheers


Hi Chris

Very kind offer.....Daleks can hold there breath for quite awhile ;):lol::lol::lol:.

The tuner write up is getting very close at hand now...I have been taking a lot of photos recently, internals etc and the final line up is settled. Last few bits coming this week (please God they survive/arrive in one piece)....and I have managed to get hold of a Sansui...though sadly not a 710 or 717.

I see this as a project that will probably continue, as items come my way, but I can say now, that I will have about 20 tuners for review and comparison initially.

Big task but one I am looking forward to getting started within the next week or so. So the Japanese Are Coming is now the Japanese Are Here.


Regards D S D L

[The Grand Wazoo]

Get CT100 equivalent coax (it IS better by far from the usual screened crap) and take it straight from aerial to tuner: no breaks or splitting..


Mike,
CT100 is okay, but it has a couple of disadvantages:

It's prone to damaging kinks because of the air spacing in the inner dielectric. Go one better & get some WF100 - it has a foam inner which tends to keep the cable shape a bit better.
The other thing about CT100 is that, for outdoor applications, if there's a breach in the outer insulation layer, the air spacing (if damaged) can fill with water.


http://www.glodark.co.uk/TVimages/cut_cables.jpg

Top Left - Foam dielectric
All others - Air-spaced dielectric

[The Grand Wazoo]

.................but I can say now, that I will have about 20 tuners for review and comparison initially.


Blimey, mate - you sure you can handle it!?!?!?!?

[Spectral Morn]

Mike,
CT100 is okay, but it has a couple of disadvantages:

It's prone to damaging kinks because of the air spacing in the inner dielectric. Go one better & get some WF100 - it has a foam inner which tends to keep the cable shape a bit better.
The other thing about CT100 is that, for outdoor applications, if there's a breach in the outer insulation layer, the air spacing (if damaged) can fill with water.


http://www.glodark.co.uk/TVimages/cut_cables.jpg

Top Left - Foam dielectric
All others - Air-spaced dielectric

Hi Chris

Where would you get WF100 co-ax?

Regards D S D L

[Spectral Morn]

Blimey, mate - you sure you can handle it!?!?!?!?

Oh yes.....it has become both a passion and obsession...first a few, but now thanks to loaners and other sources a flood.

First write up will be entitled.... THE SCHOOL OF 74. 4 classics Tuners from 1974.

There will be a Kenwood comparison...does the 5020 and 3050 sound the same...and so on.

Regards D S D L

[The Grand Wazoo]

Where would you get WF100 co-ax?

Neil - it's everywhere!!

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/High-Performance-CT100---WF100-Coax-Cable-Sky-Ntl-20m_W0QQitemZ250548485710QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxq2009 1215?IMSfp=TL091215155001r15264

http://www.satcure.co.uk/accs/page8.htm

http://www.cyberselect.co.uk/range/1619

http://www.cld-dist.co.uk/shop/cable/coax/CACWF100.html

http://www.cdtronix.com/coax-cable/sold-per-reel/cat_100.html

[The Grand Wazoo]

Those are the first few from a quick Googling. I used to get a silver plated copper WF100 from Maplin - I don't know if they still do it.......

[Rare Bird]

I don't think so Andre. The two had almost the same period of production, both finishing in '79. I think the black finish on the tuner was only introduced in '79, maybe '78. I never heard of a black 1020 though.

And yes, you're right. You never should have sold a thing like that!

I'll have to investigate this more, i'm positive the CR1020 & CT7000 were discontinued at the same time..I bought that CT7000 around 1986 from a mates dad, he had a full Yamaha rig all black he was selling off..I gave him 150 earth pounds for it back then, he always boasted to me it was the greatest tuner ever built & ever would be, a very bold statement, one i couldnt argue with, but 25 years or so on, he's not far off wrong, a better sounding tuner that say Quad 'FM4',Sugden 'T48', Onix 'BWD1'/'SOAP', Naim 'NAT01'/'NAPST',etc that i heard through the years . No idea what a CT7000 would fetch nowaday especially a black one, maybe 500+

[Spectral Morn]

Neil - it's everywhere!!

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/High-Performance-CT100---WF100-Coax-Cable-Sky-Ntl-20m_W0QQitemZ250548485710QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxq2009 1215?IMSfp=TL091215155001r15264

http://www.satcure.co.uk/accs/page8.htm

http://www.cyberselect.co.uk/range/1619

http://www.cld-dist.co.uk/shop/cable/coax/CACWF100.html

http://www.cdtronix.com/coax-cable/sold-per-reel/cat_100.html

Hi Chris

Thanks, I need about 30 ms and there is a listing for that length....excellent.


Regards D S D L

[Rare Bird]

Those are the first few from a quick Googling. I used to get a silver plated copper WF100 from Maplin - I don't know if they still do it.......

http://www.russandrews.com/product.asp?lookup=1&region=UK&currency=GBP&pf_id=2711&customer_id=PAA0437013110605JYHBUEFBWCFCBYUO

[Spectral Morn]

Those are the first few from a quick Googling. I used to get a silver plated copper WF100 from Maplin - I don't know if they still do it.......

I can check that out too as there is one just down the road from me.

I want a clean unbroken cable from the aerial in the loft to the living room where I can wire a switcher to be able to divert signal between tuners.

Does silver plating make a difference ?


Regards D S D L

[The Grand Wazoo]

I'd say he was pretty close to the bone there. It'd certainly urinate all over those you mention. There are a few that you could niggle about being better, but that would only be down to a matter of taste - they'd come from Trio/Kenwood, Sansui & Accuphase.


i'm positive the CR1020 & CT7000 were discontinued at the same time
Well I thought so..............

[Spectral Morn]

http://www.russandrews.com/product.asp?lookup=1&region=UK&currency=GBP&pf_id=2711&customer_id=PAA0437013110605JYHBUEFBWCFCBYUO

Thanks Andre.....but I can't afford £300 for the length I need.


Regards D S D L

[The Grand Wazoo]

Does silver plating make a difference ?


Well, I thought it did, but when I got the Accuphase I had the feeling it sent it over the top on the brightness front. I think they changed the outer insulating material into something a lot softer than was previously used & therefore perhaps less suitable for outdoor use.

[Rare Bird]

Thanks Andre.....but I can't afford £300 for the length I need.


Regards D S D L

Yeh just notice 30 mtr..:doh:

[Spectral Morn]

Well, I thought it did, but when I got the Accuphase I had the feeling it sent it over the top on the brightness front. I think they changed the outer insulating material into something a lot softer than was previously used & therefore perhaps less suitable for outdoor use.

Theres a write up in that.... "Do co-ax cable materials affect changes in sound when used with FM tuners ?"


Regards D S D L

[The Grand Wazoo]

The Kimber stuff is quite good, but very stiff, & it's like a magnet to vandals & burglars with that yellow outer. The colour just screams - "I'm special".

[Spectral Morn]

Yeh just notice 30 mtr..:doh:

I am sure its great cable, heard a lot about it over the years for TV aerial use, but I could never justify the expense...when I could afford it, and sadly now I can't....no job as such...so I will have to look for a cheaper option.


Regards D S D L

[Spectral Morn]

The Kimber stuff is quite good, but very stiff, & it's like a magnet to vandals & burglars with that yellow outer.

If I could afford it, it would be going down an internal wall from the loft...under a floor and down the living room wall around the room under the carpet..so unseen...but I agree if it were outside :doh:.....it would no doubt risk being nicked.


Regards D S D L

[The Grand Wazoo]

Well I always thought the cable would bring attention to the fact that you must have something a bit tasty connected to it & bring about a break-in.

[Mike Reed]

NEIL,

Not sure why you want a 'switcher', unless it's to A-B tuners or whatever. When I had different tuners (receivers or whatever) in different rooms I had an amplifier to avoid any losses. Even that was a bit frowned on at th time; okay for TV, but corrupting radio signals........well!!!

CHRIS

I didn't know about the foam co-ax, and take your point. Haven't had any problems with three separate installations with CT100, though. Actually, I've a 30m ish roll in my porch waiting for this crappy weather to clear; friend had a 100m drum he bought cheaply.

I've got one or two old BBC transmitter info. books. I know they're for TV, but do show you where the transmitter masts are. Presumably one can still get them from the BBC, where I got mine.

[Spectral Morn]

NEIL,

Not sure why you want a 'switcher', unless it's to A-B tuners or whatever. When I had different tuners (receivers or whatever) in different rooms I had an amplifier to avoid any losses. Even that was a bit frowned on at th time; okay for TV, but corrupting radio signals........well!!!

CHRIS

I didn't know about the foam co-ax, and take your point. Haven't had any problems with three separate installations with CT100, though. Actually, I've a 30m ish roll in my porch waiting for this crappy weather to clear; friend had a 100m drum he bought cheaply.

I've got one or two old BBC transmitter info. books. I know they're for TV, but do show you where the transmitter masts are. Presumably one can still get them from the BBC, where I got mine.

Thats exactly what I want it for....splitters create loss a switcher should allow two or more tuners to be hooked up at the same time with signal routed to which ever one I want..with no losses.


Regards D S D L

[DSJR]

try this -

http://www.diodecomms.co.uk/index.php?cPath=58&osCsid=de6a46a5d305e8f8f1b376b1ba50408d

Low loss over HUNDREDS of metres and should make a good interconnect as its bigger brother does...