Spending Most Of The Budget On Amplification?

[Macca]

What do people think? Some say spend most on the source, others say the loudspeakers should get the most of it.

But is the amplification really the key to getting a good sound? Slowly dawning on me that this might indeed be the case.

Current system if you ignore the TT which is not my primary source, and cables, I've got 65% of the spend in the amps. Never had a better sound.

What's your percent spent on amps and what's your opinion?

[CageyH]

My primary source would probably cost slightly more than my amplification, but not much more.

[struth]

I think it depends on what your looking for. Yours is maybe not the norm. I would say speakers most. Then share out rest between source, cables and amp.
Obviously it depends on budget too, but in most folks case

Oh, and turntables are excluded

[Macca]

Agree not the norm but I've always been of the opinion it was speakers first, if using a digital source. Now reconsidering that.

[walpurgis]

The spend allocated to each part of the system should be reasonably proportionate. You don't bung a two grand MC in a PL-12D for instance (unless you are nuts :)).

This may oversimplify, but perhaps 30% on speakers, 30% on amplification and 40% on source

[Barry]

In the case of vinyl, my turntable, arm and cartridge adds up to a little more than my most expensive power amps. The CD player (bought used) was £400, and my tuner only £200; so considerably less than the amplifier. My speakers can be obtained (used) for ~ £500, but an equivalent new would cost about the same as the amplifier.

However if I were to advise anyone, I would say spend equally on the source, amplification and speakers. I'm well aware of the argument for having a good source, but all components in the audio chain are important. If you have an inferior source, then no amount of expenditure on amplification and speakers will improve matters. Likewise you won't be able to hear how good your source is if you use cheap amps and speakers.

[struth]

Agree not the norm but I've always been of the opinion it was speakers first, if using a digital source. Now reconsidering that.

My speakers although homemade and relatively cheaply still added up to a fair bit. Being homemade fullrange, like most of my sets, are not really sellable but there is a lot of cash in them, and a fair bit of me. No one wants fullrange these days, they get i guess an unfair rep. Again it does depend of musical tastes and the sound you desire, or feel you desire.
My buffer is next in cost surprisingly, then cables. Amps and cd etc lowly down list, but work well in this way. Tt and all its paraphernalia are of course more than everything combined, a couple of times probably. Looking at it that way, its a damn stupid system vinyl... lol

[Barry]

Cables are the least expensive part of my system. I prefer to make my own, and usually spend no more than £10 per interconnect.

[Macca]

If you bring vinyl into it then I agree it doesn't really work. But with digital not a problem. My current source is only 2.5% of the total budget. Okay that is the next area for upgrade, so that will change, but hopefully not by much.

[petrat]

I was once told by a dealer that I should budget about 30% of the system spend on cables, because "they can make the biggest difference". Strangely, I didn't follow his advice, or, indeed, buy anything from him.

[walpurgis]

Until recently my record playing gear added up to around £1600. But the CD front end cost £1800. Speakers are worth around £1000 and amplification would probably cost about the same to replace. (although i do have extra items of each :))

Cables? God knows, a big assortment from cheap to steep (ish).

[Jimbo]

My amps and turntable work out about the same price and both equally contribute to the systems performance.

[Yomanze]

My amp was £3,900, my speakers were £1,350 new, I got them for £650. Without a doubt the amp takes the speakers to a whole different level. They are an easy load, but highly insensitive at 84db.

[rigger67]

Assuming you're talking "RRP" when evaluating a system, then mine is source 67% (Linn), amps 25% (Tisbury and Meridian ) and speakers 8% (Rega ).

In reality, the Linn I picked up for about £320 and added the Ittok later, so let's say £650; the Meridians cost me £320, the Tiz £80; the Juras were £85 + £80 to get one fixed.
That now makes it source 54% (Linn), amps 33% (Tisbury and Meridian ) and speakers 13% (Rega ).


I would say the most drastic difference ever made to this setup was DEFINITELY the Meridians.
If I was starting over I would look for a passive pre- and two modern monoblocks before doing anything else, so yeah I agree with you Marco .. but it's taken me thirty years to shake off the old (Manticore) mantra about source first, everything else later ..

.. and I also agree with petrat about the cables.
The way I see them it's like if you have a nice road or mountain bike, say a grand or more's worth. You should spend approximately 10% of the value of the bike on the lock you use, but no more than that - cables are the same in my eyes.

[Macca]

My amp was £3,900, my speakers were £1,350 new, I got them for £650. Without a doubt the amp takes the speakers to a whole different level. They are an easy load, but highly insensitive at 84db.

LFD amps interest me. Rarely see any for sale though and out of my depth price-wise anyway.

Should point out that I am not really getting away with the cheap source, which is easily demonstrated by slotting in a fancier CD player. Still sounds better than it has any right to, though.

[jandl100]

95% of cost in the speakers
There's no need to spend more than a couple of £hundred on any other single item.
It sounds jaw-droppingly good.

-- excluding vinyl, I don't do that any more

[dimkasta]

Same here

Speakers are for me the one part that can make the biggest difference.

The speakers and their sensitivity will also dictate how much you will have to spend on amps to get a certain level of quality.

[Spectral Morn]

I am still of a view that the source is the most important part, then pre or integrated, then power amp then speakers.

Without quality to begin with nothing down the chain can make up for that lack.

[Barry]

95% of my system is "pre owned", so it is difficult for me to state exactly the proportional costs.

The TT/arm/cartridge was £2,500 but samples for sale on eBay now command £5K to £8K. The preamp and monoblock power amps were ~ £4,500, though they rarely come up on eBay. But my speakers (Quad 57s) only cost me £120, forty years ago and are the only items I will never change.

[Barry]

I am still of a view that the source is the most important part, then pre or integrated, then power amp then speakers.

Without quality to begin with nothing down the chain can make up for that lack.

I understand that Neil, but if you don't have good speakers, you won't be able to appreciate your 'quality' source.

[jandl100]

Without quality to begin with nothing down the chain can make up for that lack.

I agree with that, but I (very strongly) disagree with the implication that extra money necessarily gets you extra quality when it comes to electronics (e.g. amps and DACs).
After a couple of £hundred you are just changing the sonic flavour, imo and ime.
Sure you can get crap sound from cheap gear, but chosen wisely you can get top quality sound as well.

[Idlewithnodrive]

Speakers every time, then cart, TT, amps, DAC, CDP and just a few quid on cables, because you have to.

[Macca]

I agree with that, but I (very strongly) disagree with the implication that extra money necessarily gets you extra quality when it comes to electronics (e.g. amps and DACs).
After a couple of £hundred you are just changing the sonic flavour, imo and ime.
Sure you can get crap sound from cheap gear, but chosen wisely you can get top quality sound as well.

You mean second-hand prices?

[struth]

I wont embarrass anyone by mentioning how much my amp cost...new.:D

[hifinutt]

The spend allocated to each part of the system should be reasonably proportunate. You don't bung a two grand MC in a PL-12D for instance (unless you are nuts :)).

This may oversimplify, but perhaps 30% on speakers, 30% on amplification and 40% on source

sounds good to me .

[jandl100]

You mean second-hand prices?

No. Well, yes, but ...
My DAC cost me £75 but is available new for around £150.
Pretty much the same for my currently plumbed in amp - you can buy it new for around £180, I think. It sounds fantastic (see today's comments in my Gallery blog).

I am totally happy with them.
-- which doesn't mean I won't change them in the future. That's what I do. :)

[Joe]

What do people think? Some say spend most on the source, others say the loudspeakers should get the most of it.

But is the amplification really the key to getting a good sound? Slowly dawning on me that this might indeed be the case.

Current system if you ignore the TT which is not my primary source, and cables, I've got 65% of the spend in the amps. Never had a better sound.

What's your percent spent on amps and what's your opinion?

Hang on a sec <finds fag packet to write on back of>. OK. Upstairs system, about equal amounts on source and speakers, amps cost about the same as source and speakers combined. Downstairs system, amp takes up the vast majority of the budget, approx 65% (though this includes a DAC, and the source was bought secondhand). I've tried various cheaper amps in the downstairs system, but none of them has quite 'clicked' in the way the current one does. (All my calculations ignore cables and secondary sources).

[dimkasta]

I agree with that, but I (very strongly) disagree with the implication that extra money necessarily gets you extra quality when it comes to electronics (e.g. amps and DACs).
After a couple of £hundred you are just changing the sonic flavour, imo and ime.
Sure you can get crap sound from cheap gear, but chosen wisely you can get top quality sound as well.

I agree that price does not necessarily mean quality. There are many overpriced pieces of crap out there.

But I do not know where to start disagreeing with the 200-pound claim. And note that I am deep into DIY and modding.

[nthall]

I always leaned towards throwing the money at the speakers and building around them over time. Once you figure out their strengths and weaknesses it's easier to pick components to compliment them.

I had $30 outdoor speakers wired up to a Class A 100 watt amp on the front porch of my old place. They sounded really good for a few days until the voice coils cooked off. That gave me second thoughts about the amount of difference good amplification can impose onto the worst speakers available. I had them wired with lamp cord too.

I guess I don't really have an answer. I think you can get there either way.

Sent from my Z981 using Tapatalk

[jandl100]

But I do not know where to start disagreeing with the 200-pound claim. And note that I am deep into DIY and modding.

You could just say that you think I am totally wrong! :)

But I have owned (and often loved) multi-£k electronics. They can sound fantastic. But so can cheap gear at around the £100-£200 level. I know, because I have some.
Amps can be tricky, but with an easy speaker load you don't need a biggun' imo.
- even if you do need a biggun' - several of us a year or so back here on AOS picked up a used APart Champ One 300wpc power amp for £200. That, as they say, will do nicely. There are many others, vintage and not so vintage.

Speakers first, every time, and substantially so, if budget is not unlimited and you want to maximise sound/£.

[paulf-2007]

Turntable, arm and cart cost the most, followed by speakers. Amp cost a third of the cost of the room treatment at £69, I snagged a bargain there as there is another for sale now at the dizzy price £169. Out of all this the room treatment is the most important spend and anyone ignoring this is in denial.

[Marco]

I agree with that, but I (very strongly) disagree with the implication that extra money necessarily gets you extra quality when it comes to electronics (e.g. amps and DACs).


You're forgetting one thing... If valve amps are in the equation. SS and digital are ok for 'budget SPPV', but you simply *cannot* get a top-notch valve amp for a couple of hundred quid, unless you've lucked upon one in a skip! ;)

I'll comment properly on this thread later.

Marco.

[jandl100]

You're forgetting one thing... If valve amps are in the equation. SS is ok for 'budgest SPPV', but you simply *cannot* get a top-notch valve amp for a few hundred quid, unless you've lucked upon one in a skip! ;)


Yes, valve amps had just occurred to me.
You usually do have to sling a disproportionate amount of £ to get enough iron into the boat anchor. :D

But there are exceptions, and once again speaker load is important.
My leetle Yarland FV-34Ciii integrated el84 amp slung out about 12wpc max. No, it probably couldn't flex the walls with your Tannoys. But for what I wanted it sounded very fine indeed. It cost me £100 on eBay.

Taking a look at this system pic of mine from some time last year, I think ....

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/DSCF6717_zpsja3y37an.jpg (http://s262.photobucket.com/user/jandl100/media/DSCF6717_zpsja3y37an.jpg.html)

Interesting!
We have an original Inca Tech Claymore (£150), the Yarland (£100), my lovely Lowther Club Jazz valve amp (£300), the APart Champ One (£200).
All of them provided excellent sound.
For what I want, spending thousands more would get you different, not better, imho and ime.

[Marco]

Yup, with valve amps, it's all about the amount of iron (used in the traffos) - and *that* costs!

Sure, you did (silly) well with the Yarland, but that was a fortuitous second-hand buy on ebay. Of course there are lots of such bargains, if you look hard enough, but some folks will always want to buy new and have some sort of guarantee and back-up service from a manufacturer or dealer.

All that, of course costs money, and outside of the second-hand arena, has to be factored into the equation when evaluating how much to spend on any single part of a system :)

The other thing that always amuses me about these threads is how almost everyone only focuses on the cost of the boxes and speakers, with no consideration towards 'set-up ancillaries', such as mains-related items, separate spurs, regen units, decent mains blocks, proper equipment supports/isolation devices, cables, etc - all of which, IME, are vital in order to get the BEST possible sound from your gear.

If you truly want to build a top-notch system, then you have to consider *more* than simply the equipment itself and speakers. Optimising the performance of what you've got, and how it's all connected together, is very important to the end results achieved.

Marco.

[Frazeur1]

This is a fun post, and probably for me, not one that is answered very easily. I think probably most of us have enjoyed systems that were either front end loaded, or back end loaded, and maybe even fat in the middle. I certainly know I have experienced all three, and have from a musical enjoyment perspective, loved them all to some degree or another.

I think too, it all depends on which mantra we tend to ascribe to, my early days of hifi and assembling gear, came from the source-first approach, so needless to say, that is where my priorities were, and hence, usually more money tied up there. During that time though, most others were of the back end, spend your money on speakers, and take care of the rest in amp and source. We all have certain philosophies that work for each of us, and maybe we have even changed those thoughts as time has gone on. There aren't any right ways wrong-although there will always be those that will tell us so!

Most of us do not just buy a system and live with it for the rest of our years, we try this piece or that, shuttling in or out over time, and usually things get a bit out of whack. I tend to try these days to look at balance more than anything. Even that is a mixed bag. I also agree with Marcos statement above, that we do need to consider everything in the chain, all those things that can contribute to a better system, isolation devices, separate power sources, room tuning, all of it.

In the end though, this all should be fun and not be painful to figure out-although at times it is just that. Enjoying the music, that is what I try to make it about more so than anything, and really, that should be easy!

[struth]

Yup, with valve amps, it's all about the amount of iron (used in the traffos) - and *that* costs!

Sure, you did (silly) well with the Yarland, but that was a second-hand buy on ebay. Of course there are lots of such bargains, if you look hard enough, but some folks will always want to buy new and have some sort of guarantee and back-up service from a manufacturer or dealer.

All that, of course costs and, outside of the second-hand arena, has to be factored into the equation when evaluating how much to spend on any single part of a system :)

The other thing that always amuses me about these threads is how almost everyone only focuses on the cost of the boxes and speakers, with no consideration towards 'set-up ancillaries', such as mains-related items, separate spurs, regen units, decent mains blocks, proper equipment supports/isolation devices, cables, etc - all of which, IME, are vital in order to get the BEST possible sound from your gear.

If you truly want to build a top-notch system, then you have to consider *more* than simply the equipment itself and speakers. Optimising the performance of what you've got, and how it's all connected together, is very important to the end results achieved.

Marco.

I added the mains stuff to my cables bill lol. As i say cables etc are possibly as high as speakers for me. The rest takes care of its self. Im on a budget so try to get right what i see as the things that control the ultimate effect. All cables mains etc and the speakers, which will define what amps etc you can get away with. My amp with inefficient hard to drive speakers may well sound shit lol

[Macca]

The other thing that always amuses me about these threads is how almost everyone only focuses on the cost of the boxes and speakers, with no consideration towards 'set-up ancillaries', such as mains-related items, separate spurs, regen units, decent mains blocks, proper equipment supports/isolation devices, cables, etc - all of which, IME, are vital in order to get the BEST possible sound from your gear.

.

I did say originally to forget the ancillaries or it gets too complicated. In any case the price of those things should only be a fraction of what is spend on the boxes or something is seriously out of whack. I don't have any of those things you listed except cables, and you can't really get away without using cables.

[Marco]

I did say originally to forget the ancillaries or it gets too complicated.


Indeed, but I was just making a general (and I think worthwhile) point :)

In my opinion, anyone serious about owing a top-notch system has to give due consideration [that's due consideration, not necessarily obsessive attention] to optimising equipment set-up, and the ancillaries which help achieve that.

You do own a proper equipment rack, don't forget, and that'll be doing a better job of optimising the sound of the components installed on it, than if they were simply sat on the floor or on a sideboard...

Read the tagline introducing 'The Artist's Palette' section of the forum, and also the posts touching on this subject, from Steve Toy (and me) in 'Our Ethos', which define both what AoS is about and the importance we (on AoS) attach to optimising system set-up, via judicious use of the necessary ancillaries.

I can assure you that a MAJOR part of why my system sounds so good is precisely because of the work I've done/money I've spent on the above areas, especially in relation to the mains!

We've discussed this before, but I *promise* that if I pop down with a few 'toys', and you let me loose on your system for a couple of hours, I'll leave with you never having heard your system sound so good, and the bulk of what I'll do will cost nothing.

Now that you're pretty satisfied with your systen, since the arrival of the Krell, it might be time to put the icing on the cake! ;)

Marco.

[nthall]

The iron in the valve amps isn't worth wasting on a 10 watt SE amp in my opinion. You can get a lot more out of them by going push pull class AB and save a fortune on cables and run pretty much any speakers you want.

I don't understand the mains regen need either. Everytime I have had AC noise it has been my fault, and a simple fix.

[CageyH]

The Marco's "toy" challenge....
The mind boggles. :eyebrows:

It would be interesting to hear Macca's opinion of the impact on his system of your chosen toys.

[Macca]

Indeed, but I was just making a general (and I think worthwhile) point :)

In my opinion, anyone serious about owing a top-notch system has to give due consideration [that's due consideration, not necessarily obsessive attention] to optimising equipment set-up, and the ancillaries which help achieve that.

You do own a proper equipment rack, don't forget, and that'll be doing a better job of optimising the sound of the components installed on it, than if they were simply sat on the floor or on a sideboard...

Read the tagline introducing 'The Artist's Palette' section of the forum, and also the posts touching on this subject, from Steve Toy (and me) in 'Our Ethos', which define both what AoS is about and the importance we attach to optimising system set-up, via judicious use of the necessary ancillaries. I can assure you that a MAJOR part of why my system sounds so good is precisely because of the work I've done/money I've spent on the above areas, especially in relation to the mains.

We've discussed this before, but I *promise* that if I pop down with a few 'toys', and you let me loose on your system for a couple of hours, I'll leave with you never having heard your system sound so good, and the bulk of what I'll do will cost nothing.

Now that you're pretty satisfied with your systen, since the arrival of the Krell, it might be time to put the icing on the cake! ;)

Marco.

Yes, you should pop over for a listen, you would be surprised how things have come on. I'm sceptical about some of your suggested tweaks but the proof is in the listening.

Does strike me that we have had some amazingly good sounds at NEBO and MiBO just set up in a pub, no dedicated spurs, no regen, everything running off a bog standard B&Q extension lead.

That's not to say that it couldn't be better with those things but it would seem that they are certainly not make or break as far as getting good sound is concerned.

[paulf-2007]

Just thinking I've gone from valve amps being the most expensive part of the set up to Sony solid state being the cheapest. Take the turntable, arm and cart out and the speakers are the most expensive and the rest combined add up to £400 ish.
Oh and nobody commented on my previous post on room treatment.......in denial.

[nthall]

Just thinking I've gone from valve amps being the most expensive part of the set up to Sony solid state being the cheapest. Take the turntable, arm and cart out and the speakers are the most expensive and the rest combined add up to £400 ish.
Oh and nobody commented on my previous post on room treatment.......in denial.
The cheaper mine gets the more I seem to enjoy it. I use shelves of LPs for room treatment and it helps. My speakers are by far the most expensive out of pocket component in the current mix. I've picked up most of my stuff broken, or traded stuff that wasn't really valuable to me for something that was.

I primarily run solid state now, but I still have a couple pairs of monoblocks in the rotation. It's all for sale though. I'm not emotional about any of it. Selling it gives me some extra cash to build something new and try it out.

My Grandpa's records are the only audio related stuff that would break my heart to lose.

[Marco]

I also agree with Marcos statement above, that we do need to consider everything in the chain, all those things that can contribute to a better system, isolation devices, separate power sources, room tuning, all of it.


For me it's fundamental, especially room tuning, if the room you're using isn't the best. At the end of the day, if speaker/room interaction is poor, you've got HEE-HAW chance of making a good sound, regardless of what kit you use! :nono:

Also, getting back to Macca's opening post and the main theme of this thread, for me (and many years of experience backs this up), if possible amps and speakers should be bought together, and thus considered as a pairing, with their requisite electrical parameters (and sonic signatures) designed to compliment one another. It's one of the reasons why the active approach can work so well.

For me, buying amps and speakers as a complimentary pairing is unquestionably the route to achieving the best possible sound, at what is the heart of the system - and the way to get it RIGHT in that area, sooner rather than later, without years of pissing about never being happy with the sound you've been getting....

So my answer to the thread's opening question is no, generally not, although by doing so you might luck upon something that just works with your existing speakers, as Martin did. Instead, however, try to balance the cost more throughout the system and not concentrate almost solely on the boxes and speakers used.

With the exception of the RPi (and even that had to be modded with Z-Foil resistors and a quality linear PSU before I was satisfied with it), I've never been enamoured with the sound of budget digital sources, as I can usually always hear their sonic limitations, especially through a revealing pair of high-quality speakers! ;)

Marco.

[Beobloke]

Most of the budget on amplification? No way - they all sound the same, you know.

;):D

[Macca]

Oh and nobody commented on my previous post on room treatment.......in denial.

Not every room is going to need specialist treatment. Never felt the need in my room but it is large enough that bass nodes are not an issue, there are two large couches to pad it down plus thick carpet and rugs and a whole ton of clutter.

I have thought about adding some specialist bits just out of interest, maybe some absorption on the ceiling, but again I don't think it is a make or break element. None of the issues I have ever had relating to sound quality or presentation were anything to do with the room.

[Infinitely Baffled]

In the end though, this all should be fun and not be painful to figure out-although at times it is just that. Enjoying the music, that is what I try to make it about more so than anything, and really, that should be easy!

What good sense!

Unfortunately, when you have an interest in the playback equipment as well as the music, it can be really difficult trying to maintain a sensible balance between the two. I'll hold my hand up and admit that I have to struggle sometimes to keep what I consider to be a suitable perspective. I can get very carried away with enthusiasm for the kit, even to the extent that I find it is the equipment, and not me, that is "choosing" the music I listen to. So I might find myself thinking "I fancy listening to some Miles Davis", but find myself putting on some Kenny Wheeler because it's more "hi-fi" and will show off the treasured aspects of my system's playback performance better. So I kick back and luxuriate in just how the loudspeakers are doing this, or the amplifier is doing that. I'm listening to capacitors and resistors for heaven's sake, not music! It's not the way it was meant to be.

Who has seen the film "The Shawshank Redemption"? Well, everybody obviously! I often find myself thinking of that heart-bursting moment when Tim Robbins succeeds in getting some ropey old wind-up gramophone connected up to the prison PA system and sets Mozart playing across the dusty yard and through the halls of the prison. The standard of "hi-fi" reproduction was abysmal, the sound crackly and distorted, but nevertheless you feel as if you have never heard anything more moving or beautiful or hopeful. That's what listening to music should be like. The emotional bang you get from it should be completely independent of the technical perfection of the playback. Unfortunately I sometimes worry that I am letting the tail wag the dog when I start to obsess over my system.

Sound familiar, anyone ...?
IB

[Marco]

Yes, you should pop over for a listen, you would be surprised how things have come on. I'm sceptical about some of your suggested tweaks but the proof is in the listening.


We'll defo sort something out then after my new kitchen has been done. Honestly, I don't harp on about the benefits of this stuff for the sake of it! ;)


Does strike me that we have had some amazingly good sounds at NEBO and MiBO just set up in a pub, no dedicated spurs, no regen, everything running off a bog standard B&Q extension lead.

That's not to say that it couldn't be better with those things but it would seem that they are certainly not make or break as far as getting good sound is concerned.

Good point, but what you should also take into consideration is that at these events so much is going on, different kit being changed in and out, people talking, etc, that there isn't really enough time to concentrate properly and analyse the sound you're hearing.

Also, I don't know about you, but for me these events are much more about meeting folk and having a laugh and a good time, than critically assessing the systems demonstrated, in the way you'd do if it were your own equipment at home.

You can bet your boots that if you had to live with almost any of the systems demonstrated at NEBO/MiBO, for a length of time at home, their faults would become rather more apparent than they do when you're at the events themselves.... And some of those faults I know from experience could be remedied by the sorts of things I've mentioned.

Marco.

[Jimbo]

For me it's fundamental, especially room tuning, if the room you're using isn't the best. At the end of the day, if speaker/room interaction is poor, you've got HEE-HAW chance of making a good sound, regardless of what kit you use! :nono:

Also, getting back to Macca's opening post and the main theme of this thread, for me (and many years of experience backs this up), if possible amps and speakers should be bought together, and thus considered as a pairing, with their requisite electrical parameters (and sonic signatures) designed to compliment each other.

For me, that is unquestionably the route to achieving the best possible sound, at what is the heart of the system, and the way to get it RIGHT, in that area, sooner rather than later, without years of pissing about never being happy with the sound you've been getting from amps and speakers....

So my answer to the thread's opening question is no, generally not, although by doing so you might luck upon something that just works with your existing speakers, as Martin has done. Instead, try to balance the cost more throughout the system and not concentrate almost solely on the boxes and speakers used.

With the exception of the RPi (and even that had to be modded with Z-Foil resistors and a quality linear PSU before I was satisfied with it), I've never been enamoured with the sound of budget digital sources, as I can usually always hear their sonic limitations, especially through a revealing pair of high-quality speakers! ;)

Marco.

80-90% of what you hear comes via the room reflection so your room has a massive effect.

[Marco]

Oh and nobody commented on my previous post on room treatment.......in denial.

Ahem, I did! ;)

Marco.

[struth]

What good sense!

Unfortunately, when you have an interest in the playback equipment as well as the music, it can be really difficult trying to maintain a sensible balance between the two. I'll hold my hand up and admit that I have to struggle sometimes to keep what I consider to be a suitable perspective. I can get very carried away with enthusiasm for the kit, even to the extent that I find it is the equipment, and not me, that is "choosing" the music I listen to. So I might find myself thinking "I fancy listening to some Miles Davis", but find myself putting on some Kenny Wheeler because it's more "hi-fi" and will show off the treasured aspects of my system's playback performance better. So I kick back and luxuriate in just how the loudspeakers are doing this, or the amplifier is doing that. I'm listening to capacitors and resistors for heaven's sake, not music! It's not the way it was meant to be.

Who has seen the film "The Shawshank Redemption"? Well, everybody obviously! I often find myself thinking of that heart-bursting moment when Tim Robbins succeeds in getting some ropey old wind-up gramophone connected up to the prison PA system and sets Mozart playing across the dusty yard and through the halls of the prison. The standard of "hi-fi" reproduction was abysmal, the sound crackly and distorted, but nevertheless you feel as if you have never heard anything more moving or beautiful or hopeful. That's what listening to music should be like. The emotional bang you get from it should be completely independent of the technical perfection of the playback. Unfortunately I sometimes worry that I am letting the tail wag the dog when I start to obsess over my system.

Sound familiar, anyone ...?
IB

Used to be but not now. Just play tunes i like and try new to me stuff on spotify. Its only mp3 but can sound very good on headphones. I reserve my critical listening to the occasions i have the big rig on, and even then i try not to...not always successfully i will admit

[Barry]

What an excellent post Gary. You've got it spot on!

It's far to easy to get carried away with upgrades and tweeks, and loose sight of the fact that it is all only a means to an end. I recently spent about £600 to have a dedicate ring main installed for my audio system. I can't say it has had any effect on the overall sound, but it means the cable routing is minimised and is much tidier. So that on its own gives me peace of mind.

In that respect, it might be useful to ask how much you have spent on 'software' and how much on the 'hardware'.

[Barry]

80-90% of what you hear comes via the room reflection so your room has a massive effect.

I don't think it's as high as that.

[Marco]

The cheaper mine gets the more I seem to enjoy it.

Perhaps that's just because your expectations of it are less? It's human nature: the better/more expensive something is, the more you expect from it.

That's undoubtedly why, IMO, many of us have such 'wonderful memories' of sounds/musical experiences we heard from very modest systems when we were young, simply because we weren't applying the same degree of scrutiny to the sound as we would now, using our current systems.

Marco.

[Macca]

What good sense!

. So I might find myself thinking "I fancy listening to some Miles Davis", but find myself putting on some Kenny Wheeler because it's more "hi-fi" and will show off the treasured aspects of my system's playback performance better. So I kick back and luxuriate in just how the loudspeakers are doing this, or the amplifier is doing that. I'm listening to capacitors and resistors for heaven's sake, not music! It's not the way it was meant to be.

IB

yes, I used to do this and it used to irritate me but I sort of blamed the recordings. Then I had a friend come round to play a copy of the album his band had just recorded. After a listen his comment was: 'It sounds very different to how it sounds in the studio.'

That was when I decided I should be taking things a bit more seriously. There is nothing of that old system left in my current one and 'dodgy' recordings are no longer an issue.

[nthall]

Perhaps that's just because your expectations of it are less? It's human nature: the better/more expensive something is, the more you expect from it.

That's undoubtedly why, IMO, many of us have such 'wonderful memories' of sounds/musical experiences we heard from very modest systems when we were young, simply because we weren't applying the same degree of scrutiny to the sound as we would now with our current systems.

Marco.
The price absolutely effects my expectations of a pice of gear. I've been disappointed by the difference another 10k adds to the mix every time. I got to the point where I resent it. It's more exciting for me to find an inexpensive or free tweak that improves the sound to my ears. I've been repairing the stuff most of my life. I've had enough gear opened up to learn what causes the difference in tone between them. The components generally aren't worth the premium, custom transformers being the exception because you can't buy them.

I don't think there is a perfect setup that works for every type of music either. If my musical tastes weren't as neurotic as they are I would probably be more inclined to unload all of the gear I have and sink all of the cash into a world class system to play my two favorite albums on.

[nthall]

I don't think it's as high as that.
It could be if the listening room was built like a prison cell.

[DSJR]

What do people think? Some say spend most on the source, others say the loudspeakers should get the most of it.

But is the amplification really the key to getting a good sound? Slowly dawning on me that this might indeed be the case.

Current system if you ignore the TT which is not my primary source, and cables, I've got 65% of the spend in the amps. Never had a better sound.

What's your percent spent on amps and what's your opinion?

You have speakers that NEED what your power amp can give into awkward loads. My speakers don't need this, so I can get away with less 'exalted power supply' power amps and still get a good enough sound of great musical and atmospheric qualities here. Nick (Lurcher) has explained to me how costs escalate when transformers get rather large, cases get seriously heavy duty to accommodate them and dissipate the output stage heat and this is before the circuit itself is taken into consideration.

Modern speakers seem to be lower impedances than they were. A spec of 8 ohms is an average and can mean (if reviews are read) dips in the midrange to 4 ohms, where all the energy is. Other speakers can be over-damped, requiring seemingly hundreds of watts to wake them up in my experience. GOOD watts can be expensive, sadly, but there are enough cheaper powerful amps for most people I believe.

[Macca]

You have speakers that NEED what your power amp can give into awkward loads. My speakers don't need this, so I can get away with less 'exalted power supply' power amps and still get a good enough sound of great musical and atmospheric qualities here..

Actually my speakers claim to be an easy load and use simple crossovers. Not taken them apart to verify this but the amp never lights up or even gets warm.

[Barry]

To answer my last question, I have done a quick tally on expenditure:

source (vinyl playback, CD player(s), reel-to-reel tape machine, cassette player and tuner(s)): ~ £10K
electronics (amplification: preamps, headamps, SUTs, phonostages and power amps): ~ £9.5K
speakers: £200

(I should add there is enough equipment for at least two systems)

Yet the value of the software is ~ £12K, split roughly equally between vinyl and CDs (although my own expenditure was probably only about a third of that sum).

Clearly I've got it all about face! :eek:

[Marco]

The price absolutely effects my expectations of a pice of gear. I've been disappointed by the difference another 10k adds to the mix every time. I got to the point where I resent it.


Yes, but my point was that perhaps the reason why the cheaper your system gets, the more you're happier with it, is simply because you expect less from it, rather than you having achieved something remarkable simply because you've spent less?

For me, it's not a question of how much is spent in pounds and pence (dollars and cents) on a system, but how much is spent *wisely*, with a view of getting maximum 'bang for your buck', rather than paying simply for the ownership of a 'desirable badge' and being influenced by its 'prestige value'.

Therefore, how good your system is at MAKING MUSIC, is much more important than who produces the boxes making the music, as it were.


It's more exciting for me to find an inexpensive or free tweak that improves the sound to my ears. I've been repairing the stuff most of my life. I've had enough gear opened up to learn what causes the difference in tone between them. The components generally aren't worth the premium, custom transformers being the exception because you can't buy them.


Definitely - free tweaks are always the best! :)

Also, when you experience what, say, upgrading some capacitors in speaker crossovers can do, or coupling caps in a valve amp, for often not more than a few pounds, the sonic effect of which can be considerably greater than many box upgrades, often costing THOUSANDS of pounds from commercial manufacturers, it's a real eye-opener providing veritable proof that money is always spent best where it matters most, 'under the hood'! ;)


I don't think there is a perfect setup that works for every type of music either. If my musical tastes weren't as neurotic as they are I would probably be more inclined to unload all of the gear I have and sink all of the cash into a world class system to play my two favorite albums on.

I know what you mean, and would agree, especially with more obscure stuff such as ambient or 'dance music' (garage, acid house, etc) and various other types of electronic music, which for me does require a certain type of system to get the most from it.

*However*, I also firmly believe that a genuinely good system should be able to handle ANY kind of music, and reproduce it to a high standard, maybe not perfectly (a dedicated system, as discussed above would be optimal), but it should not 'fall apart' with any musical genre - and undoubtedly too many hugely expensive systems I've heard [mainly at shows] do precisely that!! :rolleyes:

Marco.

[struth]

Sometimes its the expectation bias that is the problem. Folk think this HAS TO SOUND BETTER coz ive just spent xxx on it, whereas often it sounds better when you save xxx

[Macca]

To answer my last question, I have done a quick tally on expenditure:

source (vinyl playback, CD player(s), reel-to-reel tape machine, cassette player and tuner(s)): ~ £10K
electronics (amplification: preamps, headamps, SUTs, phonostages and power amps): ~ £9.5K
speakers: £200

(I should add there is enough equipment for at least two systems)

Yet the value of the software is ~ £12K, split roughly equally between vinyl and CDs (although my own expenditure was probably only about a third of that sum).

Clearly I've got it all about face! :eek:

I think you need to allow for inflation Barry. Your ESL may have been £200 in 1968 (or whenever) but £200 in 1968 is a years wages in today's money.

[nthall]

Yes, but my point was that perhaps the reason why the cheaper your system gets, the more you're happier with it, is simply because you expect less from it, rather than you having achieved something remarkable simply because you've spent less?

For me, it's not a question of how much is spent in pounds and pence (dollars and cents) on a system, but how much is spent *wisely*, with a view of getting maximum 'bang for your buck', rather than paying simply for the ownership of a 'desirable badge' and being influenced by its 'prestige value'.

Therefore, how good your system is at MAKING MUSIC, is much more important than who produces the boxes making the music, as it were.



Definitely - free tweaks are always the best! :)

Also, when you experience what, say, upgrading some capacitors in speaker crossovers can do, or coupling caps in a valve amp, for often not more than a few pounds, the sonic effect of which can be considerably greater than many box upgrades, often costing THOUSANDS of pounds from commercial manufacturers, it's a real eye-opener providing veritable proof that money is always spent best where it matters most, 'under the hood'! ;)



I know what you mean, and would agree, especially with more obscure stuff such as ambient or 'dance music' (garage, acid house, etc) and various other types of electronic music, which for me does require a certain type of system to get the most from it.

*However*, I also firmly believe that any genuinely good system should be able to handle ANY kind of music and reproduce it to a high standard, maybe not perfectly (a dedicated system, as discussed above would be optimal), but it should not 'fall apart' with any musical genre - and undoubtedly too many hugely expensive systems I've heard [mainly at shows] do precisely that!! :rolleyes:

Marco.
I understood your point and completely agree with it. I think my lowered expectations allow me to enjoy finding pieces that exceed them. I don't think I've hit the pinnacle of sound reproduction by any means. I do think I have a setup that outperforms it's pricetag by tenfold.

I spend more time repairing other people's gear than my own, so I have plenty of opportunities to listen to some of the best stuff around. I don't get blown away by it very often when I test it out. It does happen occasionally.

[walpurgis]

£200 in 1968 is a years wages in today's money.

I don't think so.

[Marco]

I understood your point and completely agree with it. I think my lowered expectations allow me to enjoy finding pieces that exceed them. I don't think I've hit the pinnacle of sound reproduction by any means. I do think I have a setup that outperforms it's pricetag by tenfold.

I spend more time repairing other people's gear than my own, so I have plenty of opportunities to listen to some of the best stuff around. I don't get blown away by it very often when I test it out. It does happen occasionally.

No problem, I understand that and agree. I also get the 'downgrade in price, to upgrade in sound quality' thing.

For example, in my 'sillier days', I used to use £800 mains leads and interconnects from the likes of Transparent Audio and Siltech. These days, I mostly use (hardwired) DIY solid-core mains leads, and interconnects found in recording studios, albeit fitted with 'posh plugs', as I can hear the difference they make - and my system sounds MUCH better for it!

:exactly:

Marco.

[Barry]

I don't think so.

According the the Bank of England website, the £120 I spent on my Quad ESLs in 1974, would be £314 today. So about 1% of a typical annual salary.

[hifi_dave]

Probably doesn't account for the rise in the prices of Hi-Fi. The Quad ESL 2812 is now £6500.

[struth]

Average wage in 74 was £38. For most it was a lot less so miñimum 10 weeks wages. Probably more in real terms. Wages up north were in real terms a lot less than South. Remember taking der out on strike for several weeks for a decent wage... we got it too...

[paulf-2007]

Not every room is going to need specialist treatment. Never felt the need in my room but it is large enough that bass nodes are not an issue, there are two large couches to pad it down plus thick carpet and rugs and a whole ton of clutter.

I have thought about adding some specialist bits just out of interest, maybe some absorption on the ceiling, but again I don't think it is a make or break element. None of the issues I have ever had relating to sound quality or presentation were anything to do with the room.its not just about bass, higher frequencies bounce around and meet your ears at different times, I don't need to tell you that of course. When I built my room albeit very small I could have been content with it but planned to treat it anyway. When I did the difference was astounding. If you've never felt the need all well and good but I'd bet it would be even better with treatment, especially first reflection on the ceiling.

[paulf-2007]

According the the Bank of England website, the £120 I spent on my Quad ESLs in 1974, would be £314 today. So about 1% of a typical annual salary.i wonder if they have their figures right. I finished my apprenticeship in 1974, I may be wrong but I seem to remember a skilled turner was on £1/hour. Going by the Bank of England a skilled man wouldn't make minimum wage now.

[paulf-2007]

Probably doesn't account for the rise in the prices of Hi-Fi. The Quad ESL 2812 is now £6500.
Obviously not, it's supply and demand and idiot audiophools.

[paulf-2007]

interconnects found in recording studios, albeit fitted with 'posh plugs', as I can hear the difference they make - and my system sounds MUCH better for it!

:exactly:

Marco.now you're scaring me

[nthall]

No problem, I understand that and agree. I also get the 'downgrade in price, to upgrade in sound quality' thing.

For example, in my 'sillier days', I used to use £800 mains leads and interconnects from the likes of Transparent Audio and Siltech. These days, I mostly use (hardwired) DIY solid-core mains leads, and interconnects found in recording studios, albeit fitted with 'posh plugs', as I can hear the difference they make - and my system sounds MUCH better for it!

:exactly:

Marco.
I think most of the reason mains cables aren't effective for me is caused by the differences in our mains systems. All of our large appliances run on 240, and everything else is 120. Most of the noise is isolated from the outlet the stereo is plugged into already.

I would not call the ends on my interconnects posh, but they aren't the cheapest ones I could find either. They do make a difference.



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[Macca]

I don't think so.

Okay true, according to the BOE it would be £6280.09

Expensive speakers the ESL

[Macca]

its not just about bass, higher frequencies bounce around and meet your ears at different times, I don't need to tell you that of course. When I built my room albeit very small I could have been content with it but planned to treat it anyway. When I did the difference was astounding. If you've never felt the need all well and good but I'd bet it would be even better with treatment, especially first reflection on the ceiling.

Totally agree. For it to be worthwhile the system itself needs to be already properly sorted though. It won't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, was the point I was making. Ceiling is where I would/will start.

[Macca]

I think most of the reason mains cables aren't effective for me is caused by the differences in our mains systems. All of our large appliances run on 240, and everything else is 120. Most of the noise is isolated from the outlet the stereo is plugged into already.


Why have so many U.S enthusiasts spent crazy money on mains cables then?

Don't get me wrong I am sceptical about mains cables too, my own admittedly limited experiments have yielded no benefit but I have not fully written it off as a factor.

[icehockeyboy]

I don't think it's as high as that.

Fwiw, Dr Amar Bose claimed that at a concert, 89.9% of sound was reflected, and 10.1 % directional.

[Barry]

i wonder if they have their figures right. I finished my apprenticeship in 1974, I may be wrong but I seem to remember a skilled turner was on £1/hour. Going by the Bank of England a skilled man wouldn't make minimum wage now.

Oops - my mistake! I didn't use their on-line calculator correctly.

£120 in 1974 is, according to the Bank of England, equivalent to £1,148 today. So about 4% of a typical salary today.

Another inflation calculator returned a value of £1,310.

[nthall]

Why have so many U.S enthusiasts spent crazy money on mains cables then?

Don't get me wrong I am sceptical about mains cables too, my own admittedly limited experiments have yielded no benefit but I have not fully written it off as a factor.
I fell for it, and I didn't notice a difference when it was gone. I can't explain what anyone else hears. Maybe it's my ears, or their imagination, but I've dismissed it as one of my needs.

If it helps someone else enjoy the music enough to justify the cost. More power to them.

[Yomanze]

Fwiw, Dr Amar Bose claimed that at a concert, 89.9% of sound was reflected, and 10.1 % directional.

And herein lies the issue with the thinking of Bose 'direct/reflecting' speakers, concert halls sound awesome, loads of reverb, the room designed to make sound, whilst our living rooms, box angles & small space have a very different impact.

...maybe it's why they sounded better in huge rooms.

[Yomanze]

95% of cost in the speakers
There's no need to spend more than a couple of £hundred on any other single item.
It sounds jaw-droppingly good.

-- excluding vinyl, I don't do that any more

From what I've seen from the Philips Black Tulip series they are seem to be an 'understated statement' i.e. they look very nicely designed inside, bit plain outside, & a step above from their usual ranges. Have you had any other amps around the price of these that you've preferred? Seems to me that you've found some great gear full stop rather than price dictating it.:D .

[Macca]

And herein lies the issue with the thinking of Bose 'direct/reflecting' speakers, concert halls sound awesome, loads of reverb, the room designed to make sound, whilst our living rooms, box angles & small space have a very different impact.

...maybe it's why they sounded better in huge rooms.

There is also the point that in a concert hall they are making the recording, in the home we are playing back the recording, not creating our own live performance in a different venue.

[paulf-2007]

Oops - my mistake! I didn't use their on-line calculator correctly.

£120 in 1974 is, according to the Bank of England, equivalent to £1,148 today. So about 4% of a typical salary today.

Another inflation calculator returned a value of £1,310.haha, I didn't want to doubt those clever banking people but it didn't sound right to me.

[Joe]

In that respect, it might be useful to ask how much you have spent on 'software' and how much on the 'hardware'.

Right, back to the fag packet. All costings are approximate and assume £10 per disc; ie ignoring variations such as valuable/collectable items and stuff bought for £1 in a charity shop, we get about £40,000 on software (1,000 LPs and 3,000 CDs) and £20,000 on hardware (over two systems). That's a lot of money, but spread over 35 years, it's still a lot of money.

[nthall]

Out of pocket I probably only have around 5k in what's currently set up in hardware. Everything I own combined I have no idea.

I don't even want to know what the value of the software is. I could probably buy a private island. It would take years to unload it all.

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[Barry]

Right, back to the fag packet. All costings are approximate and assume £10 per disc; ie ignoring variations such as valuable/collectable items and stuff bought for £1 in a charity shop, we get about £40,000 on software (1,000 LPs and 3,000 CDs) and £20,000 on hardware (over two systems). That's a lot of money, but spread over 35 years, it's still a lot of money.

I used an average of £7.50 per disc. Also I underestimated the size of my collection. With the revised figures both the software and hardware (spread over two systems, with plenty of redundancy) each cost ~ £20K. A little better, but you have the healthier (and more sensible) software/hardware expenditure ratio. :)

[walpurgis]

At a rough estimate. I have around £10k (that I spent) in Hi-Fi. Mind you that includes loads of component parts and currently unused gear.

Gawd knows what the record and CD collection is worth. What with Pink Floyd and Moody Blues etc., albums going for hundreds. And I have most of the later sixties and earlier seventies classic (not classical :)) stuff on original release albums. Probably enough to retire on.................Hmm. Hang on. I am retired! :D

[Macca]

I used an average of £7.50 per disc. Also I underestimated the size of my collection. With the revised figures both the software and hardware (spread over two systems, with plenty of redundancy) each cost ~ £20K. A little better, but you have the healthier (and more sensible) software/hardware expenditure ratio. :)

There's only so many records you can listen to in a lifetime, and streaming arguably makes it irrelevant anyway. Anyone can have access to tens of thousands of albums for a monthly subscription.
They may be emotional and financial assets, and there will always be some music that is not available on line, otherwise the purely practical advantages of owning a vast record collection are diminishing fast.

[Truckletheuncivil]

There's only so many records you can listen to in a lifetime, and streaming arguably makes it irrelevant anyway. Anyone can have access to tens of thousands of albums for a monthly subscription.
They may be emotional and financial assets, and there will always be some music that is not available on line, otherwise the purely practical advantages of owning a vast record collection are diminishing fast.

Some practical advantages will always be there. It means I can go out to buy records, it drives the wife nuts cos she. can't clean it and it looks better than a raspberry pi!

[Macca]

Some practical advantages will always be there. It means I can go out to buy records, it drives the wife nuts cos she. can't clean it and it looks better than a raspberry pi!

Yes, all those things are true ;)

[nthall]

I don't look at the records as assets. It is 30 years of my life setting on the shelves that I can grab and play anytime I want. I probably would have never discovered some of my favorite bands if I hadn't snagged every box of albums I saw for sale at garage sales. I stopped looking up the values. It always made me mad when I realized I was playing a $150 album.

The gear turned into an asset. I always enjoyed fixing the stuff, but I couldn't give most of it away a five years ago. Most of my friends have pretty nice vintage setups made from stuff I picked up at junk shops and garage sales. Now I'm making a decent second income from it. I'm not really attached to any of it.

I am attached to the records, and I'll probably never make it through them all a second time, but I listen to them all at least once.

Having it all on my phone wouldn't be the same.



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[nthall]

I lost nearly 10 Terabytes of FLAC files last year because I formatted the wrong drives too. It was my mistake, but I can't destroy the records upgrading Windows.

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[Paul-H]

In my case the single most expensive item was the speakers, but that is only because they are new but cost around £500

The rest of my system is from the 70's & 80's and difficult to value now

Turntable cost under £200 but the current version costs over £2k, just fitted a new MC cartridge which cost almost as much as the TT cost me

Amp cost around £200 but again if bought today would cost around a grand. CD player was quite cheap when new at around £50 but still sounds very good, but I guess would cost new today around £150 although there is little choice for dedicated CD players these days without going higher end.

Interconnects are all home made using good quality components. Personally I suspect cables are not such an issue once you get above a certain level of quality and an area where most Audiophools waist their hard earned. Although obviously no one who has spent a grand on cables will admit to that will they 😎

Paul

[petrat]

The cost of getting more-than-adequate sound quality has never been cheaper, has it? Follow Gerry's advice, stick to digital media, and only subscribe to music services, and you're looking at most a thousand quid in hardware (secondhand and/or Chinese), followed by a few tens of pounds per month. I wish I was starting for the first time now, I'd have saved a fortune! Actually, not having a house full of records has increasing practical attractions tbh, speaking as someone who has moved house six times in the last 25 years :mental: The next (final!?) move will inevitably be a serious down-sizing, so I may well have no choice.

As to 'value' ... imo, it's all ultimately worthless. The only people who value the kit and the old LPs and CDs are people (overwhelmingly, men!) who are my age or older, and as I plan to outlive you all, there probably won't be a market for my estate ... just the local dump. As far as I can see, it's an expense, not an investment, from a long-term financial point of view ... but, for me, it is worth it in terms of giving me pleasure every day and keeping me (sort of) sane.

[jandl100]

From what I've seen from the Philips Black Tulip series they are seem to be an 'understated statement' i.e. they look very nicely designed inside, bit plain outside, & a step above from their usual ranges. Have you had any other amps around the price of these that you've preferred? Seems to me that you've found some great gear full stop rather than price dictating it.:D .

Yes, that is exactly my point, most succinctly put.
It is "great gear full stop rather than price dictating it".
I could (and have) spent thousands on well thought of gear and got inferior sound.

As for comparing hardware and software costs .... that's not really relevant to many people these days what with internet streaming providing an inconceivably large music catalogue at £10-20 a month. ;)

[nthall]

The cost of getting more-than-adequate sound quality has never been cheaper, has it? Follow Gerry's advice, stick to digital media, and only subscribe to music services, and you're looking at most a thousand quid in hardware (secondhand and/or Chinese), followed by a few tens of pounds per month. I wish I was starting for the first time now, I'd have saved a fortune! Actually, not having a house full of records has increasing practical attractions tbh, speaking as someone who has moved house six times in the last 25 years :mental: The next (final!?) move will inevitably be a serious down-sizing, so I may well have no choice.

As to 'value' ... imo, it's all ultimately worthless. The only people who value the kit and the old LPs and CDs are people (overwhelmingly, men!) who are my age or older, and as I plan to outlive you all, there probably won't be a market for my estate ... just the local dump. As far as I can see, it's an expense, not an investment, from a long-term financial point of view ... but, for me, it is worth it in terms of giving me pleasure every day and keeping me (sort of) sane.
I've got my 2 1/2 year old nephew started. I built him a portable from an old Dual table, and gave him a bunch of 45s. He loves it.

I've already got all of the albums. Moving them isn't fun.

[Marco]

Hi Peter,


The cost of getting more-than-adequate sound quality has never been cheaper, has it? Follow Gerry's advice, stick to digital media, and only subscribe to music services, and you're looking at most a thousand quid in hardware (secondhand and/or Chinese), followed by a few tens of pounds per month.


Fair enough, but you're forgetting how much he's spent on speakers! :eek:;)

And whilst there's nothing wrong with Jerry's approach, some folk still like to 'own', or at least be in overall charge of, the music they listen to - and I'm talking about streaming.

Doing your own downloads/rips, and storing them on hard drives, makes just as much sense (and I'd argue more) as subscribing to Spotify, or whatever, because at least you're selecting only exactly the music YOU want to listen to, can access it any time, and at the end of the day you 'own' the files.

I currently have two hard drives, in total housing 5TB worth of music (around 80,000 albums), and am adding to it all the time. More music than I could ever realistically listen to - and that's not including the 2500 CDs and 3000 records I have! And in 5, 10, 20 years time, I'll still have access to all those files, from my own server, without having to rely on outside sources, costing me zilch too, other than when I have to buy another hard drive.


I wish I was starting for the first time now, I'd have saved a fortune! Actually, not having a house full of records has increasing practical attractions tbh, speaking as someone who has moved house six times in the last 25 years. The next (final!?) move will inevitably be a serious down-sizing, so I may well have no choice.


Lol - why the heck are you moving so often? Avoiding the authorities? Haha... That would do my bloody head in! :mental:

Anyway, I don't regret spending tens of thousands of pounds on records (as I have quite a few rarities and loads of audiophile pressings at sometimes £30 a pop and more), as I get a huge amount of enjoyment from playing them - and will do until the day I die. Don't care what happens to them after that! ;)


As to 'value' ... imo, it's all ultimately worthless. The only people who value the kit and the old LPs and CDs are people (overwhelmingly, men!) who are my age or older, and as I plan to outlive you all, there probably won't be a market for my estate...

Ha - love it! Thing is though, there is undoubtedly an intrinsic value to VGC/mint condition records, and if I sold my collection now, I'd be confident of getting more for it than from selling my system, which cost me a fair bit, too! :D

Marco.

[nthall]

Hi Peter,



Fair enough, but you're forgetting how much he's spent on speakers! :eek:;)

And whilst there's nothing wrong with Jerry's approach, some folk still like to 'own', or at least be in overall charge of, the music they listen to - and I'm talking about streaming.

Doing your own downloads/rips, and storing them on hard drives, makes just as much sense (and I'd argue more) as subscribing to Spotify, or whatever, because at least you're selecting only exactly the music YOU want to listen to, can access it any time, and at the end of the day you 'own' the files.

I currently have two hard drives, in total housing 5TB worth of music (around 80,000 albums), and am adding to it all the time. More music than I could ever realistically listen to - and that's not including the 2500 CDs and 3000 records I have! And in 5, 10, 20 years time, I'll still have access to all those files, from my own server, without having to rely on outside sources, costing me zilch too, other than when I have to buy another hard drive.



Lol - why the heck are you moving so often? That would do my bloody head in! :mental:

Anyway, I don't regret spending tens of thousands of pounds on records (as I have quite a few rarities and loads of audiophile pressings at sometimes £30 a pop and more), as I get a huge amount of enjoyment from playing them - and will do until the day I die. Don't care what happens to them after that! ;)



Ha - love it! Thing is though, there is undoubtedly an intrinsic value to VGC/mint condition records, and if I sold my collection now I'd be confident in getting more for it than I would selling my system, which cost me a fair bit, too! :D

Marco.
I have one album that's worth more than my whole system. It was my Grandpa's so I can't force myself to sell it. It's a one off of a live Hank Williams set recorded at a local radio station. I don't know how he got it. It's a 12" cut at 78 rpm.

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[petrat]

Lol - why the heck are you moving so often? Avoiding the authorities? Haha... That would do my bloody head in! :mental:


We get hounded out by the locals. She's a witch, you know ...

http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff384/petrat56/I_Married_a_Witch_wallpaper_by_VampireMage_zpsbybn nfzi.jpg (http://s1233.photobucket.com/user/petrat56/media/I_Married_a_Witch_wallpaper_by_VampireMage_zpsbybn nfzi.jpg.html)

[Marco]

Now you're being too cryptic... Just say what happened :)

Marco.

[Macca]

Lots of people move with work man, it isn't that unusual especially these days.

I moved ten times between 1987 and 1998, although in my case it was just because I'm dodgy.

[struth]

parents did that for a while. 5 moves in 6 years I think, then never again. Last move i did I said never again.

[Macca]

Can't move again now, got too much stuff.

Used to be just the hi fi, records and tapes, and half a dozen bin bags of clothes and books. Could be packed and gone in an hour.

[Marco]

Lots of people move with work man, it isn't that unusual especially these days.

I moved ten times between 1987 and 1998, although in my case it was just because I'm dodgy.

Haha... Guess I'm out of touch in that area. Only moved house three times in my life, and that was more than enough!

Can't stand the stress and upheaval... Once married, my parents lived in the same house (the only one I remember) for 40 years, where I was with them until I was 25. Two moves after that (all within Glasgow) took me to Wrexham.

I like having stability and as much of a stress-free life as possible :)

Marco.

[jandl100]

I used to move every few years just because I liked the change.
Got bored after a while with the same place.
-- also moving "up market" as our financial position improved.

Settled now, though - haven't moved for about 14 years, although we did start looking about 4 or 5 years ago but couldn't find anything better (more suitable) even for a lot more money, so we went and bought an extra place of the same type but in a different area!

[paulf-2007]

While we're drifting off topic I have to say I've been fortunate to have always been able to buy another house before selling the first and move in at my leisure. Still have two houses now but selling the one in France this year.

[Marco]

Nice one. I think it helps when you're choosing to go where YOU want to go (for positive reasons), rather than being forced to move somewhere, perhaps worse or not necessarily better, for work reasons or such like.

Never had to do that, fortunately. Also, I've never rented anywhere. I've always had a mortgage (until it was paid off), and so owned the property I lived in, which as long as you like where you are, I think encourages you more to lay down some roots and to stay put :)

Marco.

[Dynamics]

Most of my budget is definetly on the amplification. I think if you have speakers you are happy with and you can get more out of them by amp upgrades, amps often tend to take up most of the budget and I think should. On the other hand if speakers don't benefit from much much better amps, there is no point spending the cash. I'd then change the speakers, assuming you are on an upgrade path of course. Often with speakers it's just getting the sound you want and once you've got it and are happy you don't tend to change that sound. I found there isn't much better for me than my type of floorstanders and the make, so I've just kept with the same type of small compact big sounding floorstander. Also suits environment too.
The idea of having say double or treble the value on a CD player Or streaming sources, seems not wise for me, as the money on the source could have more than easily have been used on the amps or better speakers for better sound quality, assuming again sound quality is the main aim.
It's interesting that in the us I've noticed some audiophiles seem to spend loads on speakers but little on amplification. One person I was chatting with had £8k speakers driven by £1500 amps,,which is clearly a serious mis match.

[Macca]

.
It's interesting that in the us I've noticed some audiophiles seem to spend loads on speakers but little on amplification. One person I was chatting with had £8k speakers driven by £1500 amps,,which is clearly a serious mis match.

Depends on how good the amps are. I mean how much does it really cost to build an optimal solid state power amp? If you leave out marketing, R&D, wages distributor mark up, dealer mark up, blingy case, shipping and just cost it as parts? Would £1500 do it? Can't say I have any idea, just asking the question.

[Dynamics]

but that's the point isn't it. It probably doesn't cost much to build the amp for its cost of materials alone and relatively speaking but when you factor in marketing, design of circuits, design staff and production staff costs, premises, rates, vehicles and insurance, etc, it's not hard to imagine a £1500 amp is not going to cut it against say £5k amps. It's just market economics. Also bear in mind for an audiophile brand that tries to make a better sound than mass market produced hi fi, which is more function over sound, so its market is so very much smaller. So this reduces economies of scale and puts cost of production up higher.
It's what annoys me somewhat because if people really enjoyed audiophile sound on mass, and a manufacturer like Sony therefore had the market inclination to produce audiophile quality hi fi,,up there with the naims, cyrus etc, how good would it sound with the resource they have. There just isn't the market against mid range and cheaper systems.

[alphaGT]

I have always tried to spread my money around, spending equal amounts on each part. My first high end system I had a budget of $1,000 a year. I had a mid fi system and just replaced each piece over a 5 year period. And had a fairly nice setup, Adcom electronics with Vandersteen 2C speakers. The speakers went a bit over, but fairly even.

But, after all these years, I will say that a great amp can make a fairly regular speaker sound good, more so than a mediocre amp can make great speakers sound good. The amp is the heart of the system and gives the system its character, its overall tone. I swapped speakers on that Adcom several times, and while one speaker may have had more bass, or brighter highs, the overall sound of the system stayed the same. I'm not sure what percentage my present amp has of the overall cost, but it's just a bit over the cost of the speakers. Synergy is the key, while cost is easy to quantify, it really isn't a measure of quality or value.


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[struth]

I have always tried to spread my money around, spending equal amounts on each part. My first high end system I had a budget of $1,000 a year. I had a mid fi system and just replaced each piece over a 5 year period. And had a fairly nice setup, Adcom electronics with Vandersteen 2C speakers. The speakers went a bit over, but fairly even.

But, after all these years, I will say that a great amp can make a fairly regular speaker sound good, more so than a mediocre amp can make great speakers sound good. The amp is the heart of the system and gives the system its character, its overall tone. I swapped speakers on that Adcom several times, and while one speaker may have had more bass, or brighter highs, the overall sound of the system stayed the same. I'm not sure what percentage my present amp has of the overall cost, but it's just a bit over the cost of the speakers. Synergy is the key, while cost is easy to quantify, it really isn't a measure of quality or value.


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Could be right, i dont know ..ive always fancied a low power class a in my system ..not valve but ss. Just to see if it does improve things. They are hard to comeby though

[alphaGT]

Pure Class A has become a rare animal. Now days with everyone trying to go "Green", even some called Class A are really some kind of floating bias amp. You just about have to shop for old amps to get a low wattage Class A. Modern true Class A amps are ultra expensive. Worth shopping for! Keep an eye out, one has to turn up eventually.


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[Arkless Electronics]

Could be right, i dont know ..ive always fancied a low power class a in my system ..not valve but ss. Just to see if it does improve things. They are hard to comeby though

I'm designing one presently;)

[struth]

Cant afford your prices mate.. im poor.

[walpurgis]

Could be right, i dont know ..ive always fancied a low power class a in my system ..not valve but ss. Just to see if it does improve things. They are hard to comeby though

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Douk-Audio-HD1969-Pure-Class-A-Desktop-Stereo-Amplifier-HiFi-Headphone-amp-NEW-/281945517138?hash=item41a5432c52

[nthall]

Could be right, i dont know ..ive always fancied a low power class a in my system ..not valve but ss. Just to see if it does improve things. They are hard to comeby though
The Pass kits can be inexpensive to build. Surplus parts, and the patience to test and match Chinese components saves a lot. Most of them are 25 watts.

The real Aleph 2s are the best solid state amps I've ever heard. Knockoffs come pretty close.

[struth]

The Pass kits can be inexpensive to build. Surplus parts, and the patience to test and match Chinese components saves a lot. Most of them are 25 watts.

The real Aleph 2s are the best solid state amps I've ever heard. Knockoffs come pretty close.

Cheers.. im not into building now.. cant see well, or sit long enough to do a job now. Passed it full stop mate!

[struth]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Douk-Audio-HD1969-Pure-Class-A-Desktop-Stereo-Amplifier-HiFi-Headphone-amp-NEW-/281945517138?hash=item41a5432c52

Ive had that on my radar for some months. Cant decide if its a fire hazard or worth a punt lol

[nthall]

Ive had that on my radar for some months. Cant decide if its a fire hazard or worth a punt lol
The Douk stuff has been pretty good from my experience. The case and heatsink is worth the price. I don't know how they build stuff that cheap.

[walpurgis]

The Douk stuff has been pretty good from my experience. The case and heatsink is worth the price. I don't know how they build stuff that cheap.

I've had a few Douk bits and been satisfied with them. Still got a little Class D (might be Tripath) amp I'm sure was from there. Works really well.

[struth]

Will consider it once i get a chair sorted out...if ever lol