SSD vs. HDD for Music Storage ?

[Adrian Ho]

This may have already been addressed somewhere in Digital Expressions, and if it has, apologies ...

As a newbie to TAoS, and having read Welder's Ripping Guide with enthusiasm, and then Marco's Analog Dinosaur's write-up on using a Raspberry Pi 2 and a IQ-Audio DAC, I began thinking about whether I might go down the same digital path.

SO QUESTION #1: What about storage for all the FLAC files I have? I know SSD costs more than traditional HDD, but other than that, are there any specific benefits that one medium has over the other? (At present I have them all stored on a networked Western Digital drive - and I've seen Rothchild's BEWARE notice regarding Seagate's NAS, meaning WD must do the same DNS request thing.)

AND QUESTION #2 (somewhat related): Is there a downside (besides relatively limited storage capacity) to simply using an android tablet (like my Samsung Galaxy Tab S2) to store and play music out of the 3.5mm headphone jack into the RCA audio inputs on my pre-amp? (I believe the Tab S2 comes with a built-in DAC.)

Hope #2 doesn't horrify any readers! Ha, ha.

[terrys99]

Go with hdd .
Ssd costs loads more,

I use wd enterprise drives for storage, these are heavy duty, for servers ect, fail rates are very low. Last for yrs. I think they claim so many million hrs ect.
Ssd are more expensive, fast , but only have so many write read cycles before cells start to show errors.

Go with hhd.

I have 2 ssd drives that are 3 yrs old and have errors appearing.

[Qwin]

SSD are faster, you will get quicker boot up times for instance.

SSD are completely silent as they have no moving parts.
HDD have a spinning disc and vary from almost silent to quite noisy depending on make/model.
So it largely depends on your kits location/listening position and the trade off with SSD having a higher price. 500Gb or below and the SSD are reasonable, they get expensive above this. (Roughly £120 per Tb).
Watch out for drives claiming SSD when they are a hybrid of both, the spin speed gives this away in the spec.

[realysm42]

Ssds have come a long way; really, don't worry about how many write cycles they have... new ones have been stress tested and will last FAR longer than a music storage solution (or pretty much any other domestic use will place on them) will ever need.

Ps. Ssds not having moving parts will definitely reduce 'noise'. I used an external hdd to back up music once. It was next to a speaker cable, every time it span (aka was used) my right speaker picked this noise up and crackled so alarmingly that i turned the amp off for the duration of the task.

So what? Well, i can't comment on the impact to sq, especially on a networked solution, but it can't help. Did the same with an ssd (yes same cables etc) and no noise.

Don't let reliability or noise sway your decisions, as they're either the same or better. Plus no moving parts, reduced vulnerability to shock impact, lower power needs, FAR superior speed are plusses. Jus' saying.

[Clive]

My new music player has a 1TB SSD. SSD makes sense for any system drive and given that it cost me just £150 extra to go from a small SSD system drive to a 1TB SSD which easily now contains the system and all my digital music - it was a no brainer. I've had enough HDDs fail on me to believe that reliability of the latest SSDs won't any worse and could be better. If I search for a track, the result is instant. My PC is fanless too so a spinning disk would be an anachronism.

However, you won't go far wrong with either option (HDD or SSD).

[Adrian Ho]

Thank you all for your input. Good to see contrasting views. Storage here in HK is fairly cheap so I will go explore options at lunch today.

Surprisingly, no one has yet responded to my Question #2. I suppose what I suggested might be too shocking to consider! :lol:

[ReggieB]

Q2: The quality of the DAC and audio output stages in tablets isn't very good. 3.5mm out to pre-amp will work, but you'll hear a definite improvement by putting a decent DAC between the two. The issue then becomes what outputs the tablet provides? USB, optical, bluetooth, AirPlay?

[struth]

the dac will make a big difference. taking it off a hard drive to a dac is best option. there are plenty smaller ones if you dont want a full form one. The m6 from smsl is very good and quite small..you could have the stuff stored on a tablet and take it off wirelessly via a chromecast. it has a dac in it and has an optical out too. Great solution but will need a player on tablet that casts

[Adrian Ho]

Q2: The quality of the DAC and audio output stages in tablets isn't very good. 3.5mm out to pre-amp will work, but you'll hear a definite improvement by putting a decent DAC between the two. The issue then becomes what outputs the tablet provides? USB, optical, bluetooth, AirPlay?

Output besides 3.5mm? Only Micro USB 2.0, but it seems I can get a third party LAN adapter. And it has Bluetooth, but that would mean loss in hi-fi quality, no?

[struth]

Output besides 3.5mm? Only Micro USB 2.0, but it seems I can get a third party LAN adapter. And it has Bluetooth, but that would mean loss in hi-fi quality, no?

Bluetooth is mp3. Afaik. Wifi is ok tho.

Some info on using chromecast here which is 44/16 streamer wireless

http://www.guidingtech.com/37079/stream-music-chromecast/

[WAD62]

SO QUESTION #1: What about storage for all the FLAC files I have? I know SSD costs more than traditional HDD, but other than that, are there any specific benefits that one medium has over the other? (At present I have them all stored on a networked Western Digital drive - and I've seen Rothchild's BEWARE notice regarding Seagate's NAS, meaning WD must do the same DNS request thing.)

AND QUESTION #2 (somewhat related): Is there a downside (besides relatively limited storage capacity) to simply using an android tablet (like my Samsung Galaxy Tab S2) to store and play music out of the 3.5mm headphone jack into the RCA audio inputs on my pre-amp? (I believe the Tab S2 comes with a built-in DAC.)

Hope #2 doesn't horrify any readers! Ha, ha.

Hi Adrian

1. If it's not going to be directly connected to your DAC, eg a NAS (QNAP etc., avoid that Seagate device!), and outside of your listening area go with regular HDDs.

2. I'd avoid the headphone output ;) however I can stream FLAC from both my Samsung S4, and Note 8 (both have 128GB SDs), via an OTG USB cable, into numerous USB DACs, there's a thread somewhere on one of the Android forum listing compatible devices...I use an iFi Nano, but I only use this setup on holiday etc., and the iFi's on board battery takes a load off the phone/tablet.

The main downside to 2 is the OTG cable prevents you from charging, and USB host is quite battery intensive, there are some OTG cables that offer charging adapters but I don't think one can do both simultaneously...

However if you're at all computer literate at all I'd recommend going the pi route, I've got 2 up and running as players (IQaudio/pi2/piCorePlayer, Audiophonics/pi2/piCorePlayer), and only last night built a new LMS server with a pi3/piCoreplayer referencing my QNAP NAS Flac library.

I'm currently running LMS on my QNAP NAS, however the new pi3 allows me to run the latest version of LMS, and secondly fully indexes 30K FLAC tracks in 35mins, about 15mins quicker than the old QNAP. So I will be turning off the old version of LMS shortly...:eyebrows:

[Sherwood]

I cannot see the advantage of SSD over HDD especially given the price. The data transfer speed of HDD is more than adequate for FLAC, WAV or even HD files. What is more, having recently moved from PiCore Player to Volumio, I find the latter has the option to buffer files before playback with various buffer sizes selectable. Buy a second HDD with the money saved as a mirror of the one you are using as whatever drive you use it will fail at some point!

Geoff

[Adrian Ho]

Thanks very much, Will.

The pi3 route is enticing. BUT, have you and others pursued it for the novelty and cost/benefit factors, or does a pi3 coupled with the other IQ/CorePlayer/Audiophonics devices you list actually produce a higher quality audio than say store bought devices as are available from BlueSound (NAD) or Linn (i.e., is the pi3 route technically equal or even superior)? I'm reasonably computer literate and don't mind tinkering, but just buying a streamer from a reputable brand seems such an easy turnkey solution.

The iFi Nano looks pretty cool for use on the go, as you suggest! And I already have the OTG USB cable.

[WAD62]

Thanks very much, Will.

The pi3 route is enticing. BUT, have you and others pursued it for the novelty and cost/benefit factors, or does a pi3 coupled with the other IQ/CorePlayer/Audiophonics devices you list actually produce a higher quality audio than say store bought devices as are available from BlueSound (NAD) or Linn (i.e., is the pi3 route technically equal or even superior)? I'm reasonably computer literate and don't mind tinkering, but just buying a streamer from a reputable brand seems such an easy turnkey solution.

The iFi Nano looks pretty cool for use on the go, as you suggest! And I already have the OTG USB cable.

The piDAC HATs (Iqaudio, and audiophonics) are great, and I use them in my secondary systems, for SQ/Cost, small form, and you'd have to spend a lot to better them even in your main system...however I've been playing around with a pi2/digi+ pro in my main system for ultimate SQ and posted this on another forum yesterday...it's superb in absolute SQ, regardless of cost ;)

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?p=3060727#post3060727

If I didn't already have the Touch and the associated iFi USB gubbins I'd go with the pi/digi+ pro, and spend the savings on other areas of my system...both allow the MDAC to work at it's best

The other key to this is piCorePlayer software, it's rock solid, supported, with a global user base and form support on the squeezebox forums, along with all of the other LMS/squeezebox variants...

pi3/piCorePlayer/LMS/HiFiBerry Digi+ Pro with connected HD as all in one server player...

19667

...subsequently rebuilt as pi/piCorePlayer/HiFiBerry Digi+ in head to head with SBTouch...:eyebrows:

19668

[Adrian Ho]

The piDAC HATs (Iqaudio, and audiophonics) are great, and I use them in my secondary systems, for SQ/Cost, small form, and you'd have to spend a lot to better them even in your main system...however I've been playing around with a pi2/digi+ pro in my main system for ultimate SQ and posted this on another forum yesterday...it's superb in absolute SQ, regardless of cost ;)

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?p=3060727#post3060727

If I didn't already have the Touch and the associated iFi USB gubbins I'd go with the pi/digi+ pro, and spend the savings on other areas of my system...both allow the MDAC to work at it's best

The other key to this is piCorePlayer software, it's rock solid, supported, with a global user base and form support on the squeezebox forums, along with all of the other LMS/squeezebox variants...

pi3/piCorePlayer/LMS/HiFiBerry Digi+ Pro with connected HD as all in one server player...

19667

...subsequently rebuilt as pi/piCorePlayer/HiFiBerry Digi+ in head to head with SBTouch...:eyebrows:

19668

Thanks again, Will. It seems the more I learn the more complex the decision becomes! Ha, ha.

I went and looked at the iFi Nano line yesterday. Very petite and clearly that's a selling point here in crowded (space-challenged) Hong Kong.

In the building next door were two high-end audio shops selling DACs in the USD5-20K range, though one proprietor, and extremely amiable fellow named Ernest, showed me a Stello DA100 from Korea for about USD750, which he said is unusually good value for its 'low' cost. (I have yet to compare its specs to the iFi Nano line-up.) He later played me some vinyl using VTL Siegried tube amps and Rockport speakers that produced an acoustic experience for me that was frankly mind-blowing. (Since the speakers cost USD27,000 a pair I guess that's to be expected. I didn't dare ask about the amps.) He's featured in this article half-way down: http://www.theaudiobeat.com/visits/asia_2.htm and has gotten me thinking about tube amplification.

Ernest uses a streaming software called JRiver in his studio, and said it's the best on the market. Do you know it?

[alphaGT]

I'm not up to date on the latest streaming, but digital storage was an expertise of mine in a previous life. I don't know what the dependability of the SSD drives is compared to HHD, but it's far faster. However, if you are storing data on a hard drive I don't think lack of speed will be a problem.

But a fool proof solution is a RAID storage device. I've seen some WiFi solutions advertised by Western Digital, for a few hundred, surprisingly affordable compared to what it cost 25 years ago. But it's just a large box, with 3 hard drives in it. And it stores data spread across all three drives, so, it's a 3 Terabyte storage device. And it used RAID technology to spread the data across these drives, using a check bit, so that if any one Drive crashes, the data can be recreated using the other two. Very ingenious actually, but it's just about fool proof, unless you beat it with a sledge hammer. If security is important, this is the way to go. And 3 Terabytes sounds like a lot of space, but the one Terabyte drive on my notebook filled up faster than I thought it would. You can store all of your music on it, full sized lossless data, and back up your computers, etc, you can even set up automatic backups of your computer devices. So when a crash does happen, you can recover 100%. Losing your family photos and music files can be a traumatic event.

Others here may be more versed in how you play music from a server, but I'm sure I've read that some of these streaming devices are designed to work with an external server. Once it's set up. It sets out of the way and you never think about it, works in the background, and you won't fill it up too soon.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[alphaGT]

https://www.wdc.com/products/external-storage/my-book-duo.html

Check this out, $250 US


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[WAD62]

Ernest uses a streaming software called JRiver in his studio, and said it's the best on the market. Do you know it?

All depends what 'best' means, I know there are keen users on this forum, but I think they're more PC/Mac based, it's also more of a multi-media solution than LMS etc.

If you're considering using a pi I'd strongly recommend piCorePlayer as the 'best', as it only executes from memory it will survive no end of power outages without corrupting the SD card...however as you say there are many alternative solutions out there.

I'm particularly keen on the open source nature of LMS, when Logitech dropped Squeezebox a lot of users were nervous about the future, now a whole community has grown up supporting multiple offerings, with future support...the pi now fills in the hardware gap :)

I suppose the other consideration is do you actually need multi room? I lived in Hong Kong in the nineties, and 1 system was ample the size of flat I had then...;)

[Adrian Ho]

All depends what 'best' means, I know there are keen users on this forum, but I think they're more PC/Mac based, it's also more of a multi-media solution than LMS etc.

If you're considering using a pi I'd strongly recommend piCorePlayer as the 'best', as it only executes from memory it will survive no end of power outages without corrupting the SD card...however as you say there are many alternative solutions out there.

I'm particularly keen on the open source nature of LMS, when Logitech dropped Squeezebox a lot of users were nervous about the future, now a whole community has grown up supporting multiple offerings, with future support...the pi now fills in the hardware gap :)

I suppose the other consideration is do you actually need multi room? I lived in Hong Kong in the nineties, and 1 system was ample the size of flat I had then...;)

Hi Will, sorry for being quiet. Have been on the road (trying to escape the small flats here in HK, lol!)

Yes, the music will be for one room only. I did make it to a few hi-fi stores to continue my education and have found some reasonably priced DACs that seem to do the job (the Luxman DA250 might be the winner). Have also researched all the RAID storage devices and know what I'll go for. What I need to figure out now is whether I actually need a Raspberry Pi (or a computer) as it seems I can control everything from a tablet. I sense your Pi set-up is more ably suited to a multi-room speaker environment?

[WAD62]

Hi Will, sorry for being quiet. Have been on the road (trying to escape the small flats here in HK, lol!)

Yes, the music will be for one room only. I did make it to a few hi-fi stores to continue my education and have found some reasonably priced DACs that seem to do the job (the Luxman DA250 might be the winner). Have also researched all the RAID storage devices and know what I'll go for. What I need to figure out now is whether I actually need a Raspberry Pi (or a computer) as it seems I can control everything from a tablet. I sense your Pi set-up is more ably suited to a multi-room speaker environment?

Hi Adrian, I'd recommend a separate DAC for your main (or only ;) ) system too! I use an upgraded MDAC in mine, which also gives you the flexibility of using it for other digital sources...

If you already have a laptop that might be a good starting point, you could always try a Pi later on...:)

Are you intending to rip your CDs? You'll need a laptop for that at least...

[Adrian Ho]

Hi Adrian, I'd recommend a separate DAC for your main (or only ;) ) system too! I use an upgraded MDAC in mine, which also gives you the flexibility of using it for other digital sources...

If you already have a laptop that might be a good starting point, you could always try a Pi later on...:)

Are you intending to rip your CDs? You'll need a laptop for that at least...

Hi Will, already went through the lonnnng pain of ripping over a 1000 CDs. Whew. Used a Mac Mini for that at home, with an external CD reader and hard disk, and used my PC at work, but with an internal CD reader and an external hard disk. I will transfer all the files in due course to the RAID I purchase.

I have been in and out of so many Hi-Fi stores over the past month and most of them are clearly more keen on doing business (that is, after all, why they exist!) than objectively informing me about what I should or should not consider. Only a couple of guys have come across as genuinely interested and even their input has varied.

What might be helpful for me is a schematic showing the whole picture. Have you come across one? For instance, are you saying I need the laptop as that is what will control the NAS via the router? And how does one connect a DAC to the router? I haven't seen an ethernet jack on the DACs I've been looking at, only USB plugs.

BTW, have been toying with selling my Magnum Audio system (much as I respect Colin Wonfor) and buying something like the Luxman L-590AX Mark II (Pure Class A). (Any idea how one goes about finding how much an old amplifier is worth?) Even found some fetching English speakers to replace my aging Celestions. Have you listened to the Spendor A6Rs? Very nice. But I have to admit I also liked the Wharfedale Jade 5s as they provided a little more oomph. Ah, sooo many choices! :eyebrows:

[Colin Wonfor]

Hi Adrian,

The Magnum selling second hand is very rare so pricing maybe hard, now days it is the mucked about Pre that should be changed this version is to be honest not my work it was bodged by another and not I.
The A100 may also have been played with by another so open lid and post pics please.
The originals were IMO amazing and so cheap I wonder how Tony Relph made a living from it.
The original A100 also had H-Pak FETS now very rare but the good news is I have made a PCB which allow TO-247AC to be used.
So Photos please.

[Adrian Ho]

Hi Adrian,

The Magnum selling second hand is very rare so pricing maybe hard, now days it is the mucked about Pre that should be changed this version is to be honest not my work it was bodged by another and not I.
The A100 may also have been played with by another so open lid and post pics please.
The originals were IMO amazing and so cheap I wonder how Tony Relph made a living from it.
The original A100 also had H-Pak FETS now very rare but the good news is I have made a PCB which allow TO-247AC to be used.
So Photos please.

Yessir! Will go out and buy a set of Allen wrenches now, Colin. Photos on the way shortly (I hope). Thank you, Adrian

[Adrian Ho]

What pray tell do the contents reveal? Would you like to see the insides of the Pre-Amp? Or the Power Supply?

[struth]

Adrian, your trying to show pics from dropbox. They wont work as dropbox is not a host site. You need an account with a hosting company like imageshack etc....or you could put them in with a mobile device using tapatalk.

[Adrian Ho]

Adrian, your trying to show pics from dropbox. They wont work as dropbox is not a host site. You need an account with a hosting company like imageshack etc....or you could put them in with a mobile device using tapatalk.

Thank you, Grant. Was wondering why I was having trouble. :doh: Funny thing was the first couple of tries I saw no images in my reply, but at least for me in #24 above I still can see what I uploaded.

In any case, here I try again using imageshack (and as I say above, pray tell what the contents reveal, Colin or others...):

http://imageshack.com/a/img922/8650/CNmgYL.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img923/6870/pe8QR3.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img923/1640/dWQuTk.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img924/696/S0CYAO.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img924/8908/EiESbh.jpg

[Adrian Ho]

Yikes, no comments?! Were the contents of the A100 too shocking?! (Hope not as I unplugged them before opening, :lol:)

[Pharos]

I immediately want to start tidying it up; it looks like a kitchen just after meal preparation.

Inter-weaving wires are usually unbeneficial, and they also hinder seeing what is going on.

[Adrian Ho]

I immediately want to start tidying it up; it looks like a kitchen just after meal preparation.

Inter-weaving wires are usually unbeneficial, and they also hinder seeing what is going on.

Yes, Dennis, after years of looking at that rather sleek exterior cabinet, I was surprised to see the jumble of wires inside. But I figured that a more discerning eye might understand the logic of it all! I eagerly await Colin Wonfor's take on the matter. Who knows, what's there now may not be what was originally manufactured. I have had the units serviced a couple of times.

[Yomanze]

SSD for me because they are totally silent. I have a fanless media server. No difference in audio quality though, because music is accessed in RAM, and not straight off the hard disk, but in anycase any SATA drive has way higher read and write speeds than any audio file requires.

[Adrian Ho]

Thanks, Neil, for your response. If you can, please tell more about your "Custom Silent Media Server" - it sounds intriguing!

Just for fun while here in the office on an overcast Saturday in Hong Kong, I decided to open up the other Magnum Audio A.100 Mono-Block to see if the insides differ from the first one I posted above. It appears they do slightly, though I'll defer to the Forum's experts.

Here are the pix:

http://imageshack.com/a/img923/6872/1ei6Cm.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img922/3528/ykFEQL.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img924/5037/wpWT2O.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img924/9628/4QOPQz.jpg

[Colin Wonfor]

My god, well it was my design but it looks like somebody dropped a hand grenade into the box.
I would love to tidy it up, and put it back to it's original design, but I would a 10 day holiday after from shock.

:stalks:

[struth]

Seen a lot worse

[Adrian Ho]

My god, well it was my design but it looks like somebody dropped a hand grenade into the box.
I would love to tidy it up, and put it back to it's original design, but I would a 10 day holiday after from shock.

:stalks:

Sorry to cause you such a shock, Colin! Despite the jumble-of-wire appearances, both mono-blocks are working fine so my preference is to keep them especially since I've now ascertained their authenticity of design from the one person who should know! :D

You do not sound as enamoured of the P.100 pre-amplifier, though. If I look for a new pre-amp to replace the P.100, is there anything I should bear in mind to make sure it's a good match for the A.100s?

Any insights would be appreciated.

Cheers,

Adrian

[Yomanze]

Thanks, Neil, for your response. If you can, please tell more about your "Custom Silent Media Server" - it sounds intriguing!

Just for fun while here in the office on an overcast Saturday in Hong Kong, I decided to open up the other Magnum Audio A.100 Mono-Block to see if the insides differ from the first one I posted above. It appears they do slightly, though I'll defer to the Forum's experts.

Here are the pix:

http://imageshack.com/a/img923/6872/1ei6Cm.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img922/3528/ykFEQL.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img924/5037/wpWT2O.jpg

http://imageshack.com/a/img924/9628/4QOPQz.jpg
It is a fanless Celeron motherboard, Gigabyte J1800N. It is super low power consumption, but it has a Super Flower Leadex Gold 750W PSU, which is deliberately overkill so I can keep the PSU fan off and not worry about any stress at all i.e. it provides the lowest noise possible at the price with no switching spikes and voltage sags. The processor has a heatsink, I use an SSD, and there are no case fans i.e. no moving parts aside from the CD drive (rarely used, just for ripping), which has a SoTM SATA filter on it just in case it spits noise back into the computer when I do play CDs. I use 8GB RAM, but really, 4GB is more than enough for a pure audio server. The motherboard uses laptop RAM. This setup was chosen to eliminate problems with power supply and general computer noise, but at the same time, my USB front end has its own power supply anyway. Aside from the SSD it should last practically forever.

I got the inspiration to build it from here: http://www.audiochews.com/discussion/1416/2014-computer-audio-recipes-phase-iv