View Full Version : Cartridge choice - not sure what to do - advice please!
jandl100
01-01-2010, 10:07
I've got an Ortofon Rondo Bronze mc cart. And very nice it is, too ... but tbh it's a bit too much like CD! Very clean and neutral and detailed, but ..... :scratch: ..... well I guess I fancy a change!
££? Up to £200 or mayhap a bit more, new or good condition used.
MC or MM? Well, my prejudices lead me to think that MM can't do 3D soundstaging, which is important to me (I hate all the music being sprayed onto a flat surface between the speakers!) - but I'm happy to be told I am wrong.
Output to interface with my kit? - anything from around 0.2mV to 3 or 4 mV should be fine. I'm a bit concerned that anything with higher output might overload my Loricraft Missing Link phonostage, but I'm just guessing.
My arm is medium mass and not very rigid.
I'm kind of tempted to go back to a Denon DL-103, but going back to previously owned kit doesn't usually work for me.
Suggestions / offers? :)
Hi Jerry,
Happy New Year, matey! :)
Ok, cartridges..... You mentioned MMs, and there are quite a few good ones out there, but kind of knowing the sound you like from chatting to you about this subject on a few occasions, and from reading your concerns above, I would probably steer clear of them and go for another coil. I'll suggest one in a mo'....
*But*, if you want to scratch the MM itch, there is a viable option which I think you would probably love, as it has an open and detailed sound, good soundstaging for an MM, and has much of the tone and boogie-factor of the DL-103, and that's the new range of Nagaokas - See here:
http://www.musonic.co.uk/cartridges-nagaoka-c-4_22.html
http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/5453/12062f8e7d42e515dbbc40e.jpg (http://img188.imageshack.us/i/12062f8e7d42e515dbbc40e.jpg/)
The MP-200 (above) at £195 I think would fit the bill nicely. It has a boron cantilever, quality elliptical stylus, a good extended frequency response (for an MM), and would suit your deck and tonearm down to the ground. I've heard this cartridge, Jerry, and trust me, it's a corker!
However, if you want to do a 'coil again, then I think there is only one valid option for you, and it's what you said that you are tempted to do, but with a twist........
Therefore, sir, I give you the Denon DL-103Pro (I've bought before from the chap who's selling this and can vouch for his honesty and professionalism):
http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/4941/bs1u5w2kkgrhgohc4ejlll0.jpg (http://img196.imageshack.us/i/bs1u5w2kkgrhgohc4ejlll0.jpg/)
Check here for info: http://cgi.ebay.ch/Denon-DL-103PRO-MC-Cartridge-w-OBM_W0QQitemZ220531840769QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPlatte nspieler?hash=item3358b8d701
It's about £50 or so over your budget (although you can shop around for these and on some Jap sites might find it cheaper), but it's a truly superb cartridge. I've had one before (I've owned/still own most 103s that have been made) and so know its capabilities very well.
What separates it from the stock DL-103 is the extended high frequency response up to 55 kHz, as opposed to the 45 kHz of the standard model. This gives music a wonderful openness and clarity that provides superb insight into recordings, so you get much of the clean CD-like presentation you enjoy from the Rondo Bronze, but all the richness of tone and boogie-factor of the 103 - it really is a rather addictive mix and makes for an extremely entertaining listen! :eyebrows:
There is only one DL-103 better than it - and that's the 'SA', which is rather more expensive. However, if you 'nude' the Pro, or fit one of the more exotic body shells available on-line for 103s, then you get 'SA' performance, and perhaps a little more.
Anyway, muchacho, the ball's in your court. Hopefully I've given you a few useful ideas :cool:
Marco.
jandl100
01-01-2010, 13:14
Hi Jerry,
so you get much of the clean CD-like presentation you enjoy from the Rondo Bronze
Hi Marco
Thanks for that and a HNY to you & yours, too. :)
Must admit that I was kinda looking to get a bit away from "the clean CD-like presentation" of the Rondo Bronze as I am finding it a bit relentless and am looking for a bit of analog warmth/schmaltz maybe!
I'd noticed those Nagaokas on eBay and had wondered about them. What's the soundstaging like compared to say the DL103, which I have liked? I've heard some Shures which are as flat as a pancake when it comes to recreating space ...
Someone on Wigwam is loaning me his Denon 304, that might be interesting. And there are some modded open bodied 103's on eBay.
Someone else has recced a Sumiko BPS EVOIII.
So many choices! :scratch:
Oh gawd...
Neutral should mean not adding or taking away from what's really there. The Denon may well calm things down a bit, but it could be your turntable or support you know and you've already said how long the Chord amp takes to "warm up." Of course, it couldn't be the amp could it????????????
I mean no disrespect, but I found in my times in the industry that we often look to the most innocent part when we have problems with the sound..
Try the Denon Marco's suggested. It's basically a neutral balance and may well have more "air" than the very slightly soft standard article. Moving magnets CAN do 3-D, but you have to be very careful with choice and, to be honest, analogue masters aren't always as exaggerated in "space and depth" as LP's tend to be - a contentious opinion and one I cannot currently defend I'm afraid. I have an Ortofon M20e Super that's beautifully sweet toned with a lovely airy quality. Replacing the stylus with a new "FL" stylus (same body) which has a lower compliance made the sound "cleaner" yet "dryer" in presentation, which Martin Colloms at one time stated was very close to the master sources he used for reference. The Decca's seem to do this a bit too, although with FAR more drama, which restores the 3-D effect by increasing the dynamic range forward...
Please excuse jumbled thoughts above - too many late nights and I still have the Lurgy from nearly a fortnight ago..
It's a good thing to have a cartridge choice. I have loads.....
Hi Marco
Thanks for that and a HNY to you & yours, too. :)
Must admit that I was kinda looking to get a bit away from "the clean CD-like presentation" of the Rondo Bronze as I am finding it a bit relentless and am looking for a bit of analog warmth/schmaltz maybe!
I'd noticed those Nagaokas on eBay and had wondered about them. What's the soundstaging like compared to say the DL103, which I have liked? I've heard some Shures which are as flat as a pancake when it comes to recreating space ...
Someone on Wigwam is loaning me his Denon 304, that might be interesting. And there are some modded open bodied 103's on eBay.
Someone else has recced a Sumiko BPS EVOIII.
So many choices! :scratch:
'Scuse the butting in again, but SOME CD players can sound clean but reproduce space too - and not in a flat plane either..
Shures can do a bit of depth, but you have to get the loading right and current models are very variable I understand. I'm not sure if the AT440MLa would do it for you either, let alone the AT150ML, which some have said is about as good as MM cartridges get (not including the way overpriced Ortofons).
I like the BPS very much, which reminds me of a tame Decca - loads of sparkle and "drama" yet manageable too if you're careful with handling it.
jandl100
01-01-2010, 13:40
Of course, it couldn't be the amp could it????????????
I mean no disrespect, but I found in my times in the industry that we often look to the most innocent part when we have problems with the sound..
Well, despite the opinions of some forum members here, I don't think I am a complete numpty! ;)
I've heard this kind of sound from my Orty Rondo Br all the time I have had it, thru many a component change ... so, no I don't think it's the Chord amp that turned up 2 weeks ago! Sure synergy is undoubtedly important, but the underlying 'sound' of a component usually shows through.
I just fancy something a little less analytical than the Rondo whilst retaining (or improving on) a decent 3D soundstage. :)
Dave,
I agree with Jerry on his observations with the Rondo, as when I had one, it did exactly the same thing in my system, so I'm pretty confident that what he describes is the inherent signature of the cartridge, and not an issue with some other part of his system :)
Jerry, I'm just about to have my lunch dude, so will address the queries in your other post later :cool:
Marco.
You're not the first to say this about some Ortofon MC's Marco. I look forward to developments with keen interest...:)
jandl100
01-01-2010, 16:47
Perusing eBay, as one does, I came across an auction ending today for a new modified / de-bodied Denon 103 from "The Analog Factory". Anyone come across them before?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200420677670&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT
I liked my old 103 a lot, so I thought I'd invest. It comes with a 45 day refund offer, so not much to lose! So if it turns out to be a downgrade or inappropriate side-grade, I can just send it back. :)
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/Denon103TAF.jpg
Yeah, I know - I'm an impatient bugger! :eyebrows:
LOL- nice one, Jerry - I think that could prove to be a wise move :)
When you get it, if you need a little set-up help to optimise things (getting the mass right on your headshell, etc), just let me know!
I'm glad you didn't go for the DL-304, as that wouldn't be you thing. The Sumiko is very good in its own way, but it's no DL-103. I know exactly what you like about this cartridge.
If for some reason it doesn't work out then I'd give the Nagaoka a whirl :cool:
Marco.
The DL304 sounds a bit too "gentle" IIRC.
Glad you've got sorted. I'm sure you'll love it.....
P.S. I wasn't suggesting you were a numpty, it's just that from personal experiences, I've sometimes criticised the wrong things in my previous systems and this has only come about with hindsight.
jandl100
01-01-2010, 19:38
That's fine DSJ :) - I'll let y'all know how I get on with the wee beastie!
jandl100
03-01-2010, 10:07
When you get it, if you need a little set-up help to optimise things (getting the mass right on your headshell, etc), just let me know!
Marco.
Hi Marco - I'd be very interested to hear your reccies on setup for the modded 103 in my Yamaha tt .... I should get the cart in a couple of days and I may as well make sure that I have the materials on-hand. :)
Hi Jerry,
Before we go any further, do you know roughly the mass of the headshell on your Yamaha arm, or the arm's total effective mass? Also, is the headshell detachable? :)
Marco.
jandl100
03-01-2010, 12:52
Detachable headshell - yes. Other than that no idea except what is on the TVK site ... http://www.thevintageknob.org/YAMAHA/PF1000/PF1000.html which isn't useful, I don't think. I have the manual but that doesn't say anything about effective mass either. It's described as a 'medium' mass arm.
Suck it and see, maybe! :)
Have you got something you can weigh the headshell with, Jerry (minus the cartridge) - like a small set of digital kitchen scales?
If not, I'll still be able to give you a few reccos, but knowing the weight of the headshell alone would be useful :)
Marco.
jandl100
03-01-2010, 16:54
Well, I do have some digi scales, but just tried and the battery seems dead. :doh: I'll see what I can do - but the headshell is a minimal affair as you can see from the TVK link and won't weigh much.
Tell you what we'll do, I'll send you a threaded brass plate that I reckon will give your arm/headshell the right amount of mass, which will simply slip in between your cartridge and headshell, and it should be job done... I'll also include some long screws and bolts, in case you don't have any the right size.
Pop me a PM with your addy and I'll post it off to you tomorrow :cool:
Marco.
jandl100
03-01-2010, 19:51
What a fine chap you are. I owe you one! - you can collect at the Pie Fi Show. :)
rkernell
07-02-2010, 01:23
Jerry,
I own several carts including the 103r and I find that I listen most to the Dyna 10x5 and the Sumiko BPS EVO III. My reference is the Benz Ace Low output. I think that you will enjoy auditioning any of these.
I noticed the 2.5 photo and I had to mention that I have a pair of RS 2's. What a phenominal speaker!
Rick Kernell
jandl100
14-02-2010, 09:00
Hi Rick!
Sorry, I somehow missed your post. :scratch:
Thanks for the comments .... I've owned an earlier incarnation of the Sumiko BPS and found it very even handed. Perhaps too much so! I think I prefer something with a little more 'pep' these days, although I have read that the EVOIII is a very much improved cart from the one that I had.
I love Dynavector carts - I somehow always manage to return to them, no matter how much I may wander from time to time! I've not tried any of their 10x series though, having started with a 23RS and slowly worked my way up to a XX1L. The Denon 103 does seem to have distracted me from that path over the last year or 2 though. But I am sure that I will return. :)
Benz? Hmmm ... quite a few folks seem to have found vinyl epiphany with those - I've never owned one myself. Yet.
Another Infinity RS2.5 owner! Hey - how about that. :cool: They are ridiculously good speakers, aren't they!
I've got an Ortofon Rondo Bronze mc cart. And very nice it is, too ... but tbh it's a bit too much like CD! Very clean and neutral and detailed, but ..... :scratch: ..... well I guess I fancy a change!
To me if the coloration is "like [good] CD", then it's a great cartridge.
It's mainly the channel spatialization (not sure of the word) and transients which differs from CD to vinyl. The rest should be the same.
But I understand seeking for a change, I don't mean to be patronizing or something. ;)
Hi Dimitri,
To me if the coloration is "like [good] CD", then it's a great cartridge.
Mmm... I know what you mean, but that statement is fraught with potential difficulties.
In some circumstances I agree that it could be a good thing, but personally, as I consider 'good analogue' to be superior to 'good CD', the last thing I'd want is for all my records to sound like CD, and therefore to my ears, inferior! ;)
The whole point of owning a cartridge like the DL-103 is that it has a beautiful (and beguiling) 'analogue tone', which gives body and substance to reproduced music, much like CDPs and DACs with TDA1541s (done well) do over their modern counterparts.
Another valid example would be to liken the sound of the DL-103 to that of valves done well, compared to transistors done well. Think about how beautiful your Croft amps sound compared to the solid-state amps you had before them – it’s *that* type of difference. Therefore in such circumstances, the last thing you’d want is your records to sound like CD, in the sense you meant….
Do you see what I mean? :)
Vinyl replay via something as sonically enchanting as a DL-103 is a mile apart from the forensic and clinical sounding portrayal of music rendered by most modern MC cartridges, and it is this 'magic' that Jerry loves in his AF-modified DL-103, which he feels is distinctly absent in his Ortofon Rondo Bronze.
Marco.
Marco, I'm sure we are saying the same thing, it's just that we use different words to express it.
There's nothing wrong with CD "voicing" : that's what I meant.
What you call "analogue tone" is probably what goes into the category "channel spatialization and transients" (to me).
For instance, on the Croft I find no "voicing" difference between CD and LP on a properly (digitally) mastered album.
But there *are* differences, quite easily noticeable (to everybody, not just to me, I made the test yesterday) . I simply don't classify them in the "voicing" (or coloration) section.
I'm almost sure we're talking about the same thing. :)
I know exactly where you're coming from, Dimitri. However, we are definitely talking about a different thing! :)
Do you own any old vinyl records, say from the 1950s, particularly on the Capitol label, from the days when valve microphones and mixing desks were used? Dean Martin, Nat King Cole and Frank Sinatra albums are particularly good examples.
The sonic signature of those albums (due to the recording techniques used) has a beguiling 'analogue tone' and 'natural warmth' which is completely absent from modern recordings on vinyl, particularly those that are digitally mastered.
The latter are often (but not always) more 'clinical' sounding and exhibit, to my ears, a coloration which I find as unnatural - some would say they're more 'accurate', but not to my ears, musically...
It is *precisely* this difference in presentation which separates the sound of a DL-103 and the likes of Jerry's Ortofon Rondo Bronze. The DL-103 is the sound of 1950s Capitol recordings on vinyl! :cool:
Marco.
Thing is Marco, that many of these dear old recordings were lovingly digitised with the minimum of messing around and the best of them sound stunning on CD IMO. I remember Ash in his ATC days playing the Ella & Louis recordings from the early fifties on CD - abso-bloody-lutely wonderful, the two of them could almost have been there between the speakers it was so real sounding and effortless.. There are hundreds of good jazz recordings like this too and I fully agree that modern multi-tracking has often ruined things for these musicians...
Anyway, I digress.
Those Nagaoka cartridges are hellishly expensive for the upper models. Did you just buy one blind Marco, or did you get a dem of one or read a decent review of the current range?
hifi_dave
14-02-2010, 16:54
Have you got your TD125 up and running since yesterday ???
Mike Reed
14-02-2010, 19:00
Have you got your TD125 up and running since yesterday ???
Would this be DSJR and would that be a TD125 mk.2 Electronic? I have fond memories of this turntable (preceded my LP12 but wasn't inferior to it).
What arm, may i ask? I think I used an old SME, but can't really remember.
I bought a TD125 mk1 from SteveC67 a couple of years ago. It sat unloved in the garage until last Autumn, when I took it, together with a Rega R200 arm in full working order, to HiFi dave's where the photo(s) were taken. It has a fantastic bearing with no slop whatsoever and a clean "point" at its tip and the only blemish is the ubiquitous "Dust Bug" mark in the rear corner. it wasn't plugged in, so I cannot say how the control circuit is behaving.
The original arm-board has the SME "slot" a bit too close to the front for my liking and I have bought a replacement plywood board from a popular ebay seller in the states. This seller promised to pre-drill the board for rega but it arrived uncut. Dave and I marked out the board, but as neither of us has a 23mm drill, let alone a drill-press to do it properly, I'm afraid the deck was re-boxed, the arm (with fresh cardas plug wired in) and board are just as before, the 125 back in the garage and the board and arm upstairs.. If I'm lucky enough to collect the promised/threatened Spacedeck, I'll have no need of the 125 or Techie SL-150 and will have to advertise them as I "know" how much better the Spacedeck is.......
Back in the day, the mk2 TD125's could have sloppy main bearings and this has a derogatory affect on the sonic performance of the deck as a whole. this was fixed on the 126 but you have to get a late 126 to fully realise the performance potential of this design, as Thorens played with low voltage and low torque motors for a while.
hifi_dave
14-02-2010, 19:52
Of course, that's my carpet !!! I don't remember you taking that pic with arm in place, it must have been whilst I was making the tenth cup of tea..:rolleyes:
By the way, just for you I've bought a pillar drill from E-Bay. Now we can drill that hole...:D
Hi Dave,
Thing is Marco, that many of these dear old recordings were lovingly digitised with the minimum of messing around and the best of them sound stunning on CD IMO.
No doubt; but not as good as the recordings were on the format on which they were originally released (i.e vinyl)!
The fact is, one cannot obtain greater fidelity to the original than is offered by the original itself...
Therefore, if you'll forgive me, I'll keep my treasured original (almost mint) 1950s recordings on Capitol well away from being "lovingly digitised" - or more accurately, bastardised!! ;)
Marco.
You're wrong, but since I have no way of proving it I'll beg to differ :)
Lol - well I don't think I am, so we'll just have to leave it there, me old mucker... ;)
Marco.
Sorry, Dave, I missed this:
Those Nagaoka cartridges are hellishly expensive for the upper models. Did you just buy one blind Marco, or did you get a dem of one or read a decent review of the current range?
They're not hellishly expensive relative to the sound quality they offer - quite the opposite! The MP-150 is the best modern MM cartridge I've heard, bar none, and better in some ways than MCs up to the £300 mark.
A friend has one, so I've listened to it in my system. I've also heard the 110, as I ran one in for Dave K and used it for quite a while until he got hold of his Techy. I've not heard the top models, but based on what the 150 is capable of, I can just imagine how good they are....
Trust me, these are true 'giant-killer' designs! ;)
Trouble is, people are obsessed with the boring 'usual suspects' such as Goldring and Ortofon.... :rolleyes:
Marco.
I find the Goldrings hellishly expensive these days, but they are made in the UK still I think and this may have a bearing on the final prices... there's also a hungry middle man between maker and dealer..
I love the Ortofon MM's of old and expect the current ones are at least as good. My M20FL Super is quite a performer still, 30 years on..... Ortofon really do want their pound of flesh these days for almost all their products IMO.
I'd like to hear what the top Nagaoka's do, but I never cared overmuch for the MP11, boron or otherwise, although I do have an MP15 in good order still.
One to try one day.....
Hypnotoad
17-02-2010, 17:30
If you want a cartridge with good bass performance, mid range to die for with a detailed but not bright top end, low surface noise and mates well with most arms.
I have one and it absolutely trounced my Denon DL-110, and Goldring 1012GX.
It's the smoothest most detailed cart I have had.
Benz Micro Ace
It's cheaper than the Benz Glider but very similar in sound.
Doesn't have any issues with suspension problems like some of the Dynavector's.
http://www.needledoctor.com/Benz-Ace-SM-Phono-Cartridge?sc=2&category=364
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