View Full Version : Speaker cable survey - does cable matter????
Dynamics
22-02-2017, 17:30
I wonder if anyone would like to take part in a survey based on people's experiences to ascertain if people think audiophile quality speaker cables do make a difference in 2 channel systems, not necessarily expensive types, and if there is a correlation of more expensive audiophile speaker cables being used in premium audiophile systems, as opposed to those that aren't considered such systems. These terms could be subject to definition later, following results.
I'm doing a survey for another forum and am very interested if anyone can help me.
This could cast a bit more balance on the speaker cable debate for the benefit of those who are new to hi fi and also cast balance to those that do already have good hi fi and are wondering about upgrades and usefulness of speaker wire upgrades. It would be regardless of studies or measurements or technicalities. That is, do people think just using their own ears if they make a difference. i.e. a survey of views.
If you want to help please could you say what the price and type of the amp / pre amps and power amps are, the same for speakers. Let me just know the make by a message and I'll look up prices if you want to keep matters a bit private (or message me). Also, the type of speaker wires used (make and type) and their price and if other cables used (make and price too). Also for each cable if it's made a positive difference over the last or other cables and why. If amps or speakers have changed then that would be useful to know too if it's changed the benefit of the cables.
Questions are;
- amplifier make,type, and original retail price if known (all components pre,power, integrated, plus power supplies etc)
- speaker make, type and original retail price if known
- cable 1 : brand, make, price per meter from new if known. Length of cables. If no other cables tried just state reasons here (e.g. either not thought to try, cables don't matter etc etc)
- cable 2 : as above in cable 1, did it sound better and why?/why not?,
- cable 3 : as above in cable 2, repeat as necessary
Many thanks in advance for any help and hope you can take part.
I use monoblock power amps located immediately behind each speaker (Quad ESL 57).
The power amps used are variously:
Mark Levinson ML-2
Quad 405-2 (heavily modified, and 'monoblocked')
Quad 510
and for a short period of time, Quad 50E.
The speaker cables are thus < 1m in length and sometimes as short as 15cm. Cables tried have been:
QED 79 strand
Van Damme 4mm2
Van Damme 6mm2
Fisual 'Hollywood Dark Twist Screened Speaker Cable'
and 10A lighting flex.
I can't say I've noticed any difference or improvement between them.
Sorry for the lack of a positive contribution to your survey.
Amp Krell KSA50S (£3500 new 20 odd years ago) and NVA P90Sa pre (£600)
Speaker JM Labs 926 (about £3K)
Cables;
Chord Odyssey 2 (£30/ metre)
NVA LS5 (£32.50/metre)
Significant difference between the two cables, and not just with that speaker/amp combination, either. NVA LS5 has less midrange 'glare' and more controlled bass response.
Hope that is of some help to you. Any man trying to quantify hi-fi cabling has my utmost admiration. Good luck, you'll need it!
Upstairs: Exposure pre/power amps (about £1,000 each when new, around 1998) to Harbeth P3ESR speakers (about £1,000 new in 2010). Have only ever used Exposure speaker cable in this system. The cables came FOC with the amps, it seems to sell for around £10 per metre. It's the cable Exposure recommend for use with their amps and have never felt the need to replace it.
Downstairs: Devialet D Premier integrated amp (about £10k new, around 2013) to Spendor D7 speakers (about £3,750 new). NVA LS6 speaker cable (about £120 per metre). The NVA cable replaced Van den Hul The Wind speaker cable (about £25 per metre); the NVA cable livened up the sound considerably compared to the Van den Hul cable.
Cant remember what my cables were made of. Some silver plated yellow cable. Homemade twisted, took an age, lots of cable, costa fortune, into homemade speakers that took ages and took several years off my life
montesquieu
09-03-2017, 12:56
So long as they are thick enough and not too long it makes no difference. 2,5mm or 4mm Van Damme cheapies, decent terminations or bare wire, is as much as you need. I'm currently using some cloth covered Western Electric thick-strand copper but mainly because it looks nice I think I bought a length off ebay yonks ago for maybe £50?
I remember spending a bomb on Transparent cables ... they were too short for one configuration I wanted to try so swapped in the above Van Damme ... no audible difference. Learned a lesson that day but it took a year or two for the audiophilia nervosa to fully subside. Nowadays, spend the money on components is my philosophy.A properly designed amp into a properly designed speaker crossover shouldn't have its sound changed by 2-3m of wire. If it does then I would wager there's something wrong with the design of one or the other.
A certain company's solid state amps will of course famously blow up if you use the wrong wire but in my view that's more down to the amp design than the cable involved.
Gear - assorted valve amps into assorted Tannoys.
Should probably also mention that when using Lk100 amp and Celestion A2 speakers swapped Cable Talk 3 for Chord Odyssey 2 and heard no difference. became a cable sceptic immediately.
however since then I have swapped speaker cables with different kit and heard quite obvious changes, changes a civilian would hear with no prompting.
Conclusion; They can make a difference in the right situation, it has nothing to do with amplifiers not being designed properly. Whatever is going on it is more complex than that.
im using van damme hifi cable its very good but i deeply miss my NVA LS5.
icehockeyboy
09-03-2017, 15:46
Let's not confuse Cable talk 3 and Talk cable 3.
Different makes aren't they?
hifi_dave
09-03-2017, 17:37
Let's not confuse Cable talk 3 and Talk cable 3.
Different makes aren't they?
Same designer, different company.
It was the old cable talk 'talk 3'. Bi wire. I still have it.
Dynamics
11-03-2017, 22:31
Thanks for all your replies.
I don't get the arguments when people say quality cables don't matter and not necessarily expensive ones. I have bought quite expensive chord cables but only because I've gone up the range, they sound better, I had the money and thought it worth it. but they do suit my pmc 25-23s and cyrus signature gear too.
I think it's maybe gonna be too hard to quantify but there is a few camps from people who just refer you to cheap cables, people who use maybe £30/m speaker cables on really decent systems, and people like me who have invested a fair bit in cabling. But regardless of whether I would have bought chord signature xlr interconnects I do think the epic reference speaker cable is good, as well as the epic twin I used before which is much better value.
Thanks for all your replies.
I don't get the arguments when people say quality cables don't matter and not necessarily expensive ones. I have bought quite expensive chord cables but only because I've gone up the range, they sound better, I had the money and thought it worth it. but they do suit my pmc 25-23s and cyrus signature gear too.
I think it's maybe gonna be too hard to quantify but there is a few camps from people who just refer you to cheap cables, people who use maybe £30/m speaker cables on really decent systems, and people like me who have invested a fair bit in cabling. But regardless of whether I would have bought chord signature xlr interconnects I do think the epic reference speaker cable is good, as well as the epic twin I used before which is much better value.
You're right.
It is so dependant on what two boxes the cable is connecting, even before you consider everything else. Then there is personal taste as to the 'balance' of the sound. Sometimes changing the cable makes no difference at all, regardless of how much it cost. We may even dislike what it is doing compared to a cheaper one. The best I've been able to come up with in my own attempt to 'quantify' hi-fi, is to start with a thick cable of multi-strand copper, pure as you can get, because that 'in theory' should be optimal for all purposes.And then if that doesn't work, start experimenting.
Life is short though and there are a lot of speaker cables to try in a near infinite combination of equipment. Who wants to do that?
Dynamics
11-03-2017, 23:13
Exactly you can't try everything but making good choices and experimenting up to a point, a good thing to do.
I started with this talk 4 cable I bought in 1997 then when I bought my 20-23s I went to naim naca5. These are both thick copper only designs with basic pvc jackets. When I went to the chord range - firstly carnival silver screen, then epic twin, then epic reference, the sound is hugely better than just copper thick designs. I think it's the decent design and quality shielding and the silver coated copper too.
I put the talks back on for a laugh the other day, and all the dynamics and detail is sucked out of the sound.
I've used Chord Odyssey 2 for a fair few years with all sorts of amp and speaker combinations, no complaints. Never thought about it. But with my current set up it doesn't work. Or that is, I prefer a different cable in this setup. Some may prefer it with the Chord in, but the difference is notable.
I think £30 a metre is expensive fo speaker cable btw and I feel a bit dirty using the cable I am using now which is £32/metre, so we are probably not on the same wavelength there. ;)
Dynamics
11-03-2017, 23:37
always common ground in hi fi though which is interesting.
I think £30/m is expensive. I spent £150/m for chord epic reference, which is clearly very expensive and could be hard for some to justify for what it is. I just thought it was better than the much cheaper epic twin, it suited the system very well indeed, it's well screened with individual shielding for each conductor, it is probably the last speaker cable I'll buy, and therefore it is very worth it and value. I also appreciate law of diminishing returns comes in too so I'm paying more for lower performance proportionate to price. Also if I do have to sell it because I come across a cable as well performing at a lower price, that's an option too.
walpurgis
11-03-2017, 23:38
Hmm. I've used speaker cables that cost quite a bit of money, but not thousands. I find my current cables sound better than anything I've heard before. They cost me around £100 for a five meter pair. Transparent Audio Musicord. Comparatively cheap, but amazingly well suited to my system.
Oh. And if you want some, you may have a job tracking it down. I've been looking for more without success.
always common ground in hi fi though which is interesting.
.
I think the common ground is where the answers lie. Maybe not for cables specifically but if we are asking the question 'what makes a good sound' in general.
dimkasta
12-03-2017, 00:04
Life is short though and there are a lot of speaker cables to try in a near infinite combination of equipment. Who wants to do that?
So true
I have done some testing myself but I do not obsess about it. There are so many other options to work on with much greater effect and bang for the buck...
I currently use industrial grade ribbon cables (pet - silver)
I have a pair of Chord Odyssey 4 which I do not like that much. I keep them just for when I want to try a non-monoblock amp. I guess I could use plain electrical grade wire for that... I will sell them at some point.
I also had a pair of Kimber 12TC for a while which I found acceptable but not that great for the price.
I tried anti-cables for about a week. They left me indifferent and greatly annoyed with their non-practicality. Not to mention their price for what they are (plain magnet wire...)
I used the 6mm clear van damme for a while, but found them terrible. I ended up giving them away.
I briefly tested an old Audioquest Forest pair. Those were very nice. Unfortunately, they belonged to a friend and he did not want to sell them.
I also briefly tested a pair of Yamamura millenium 4000. These had a very obvious issue at the frequency extremes. It literally felt like they were adding EQ. We literally were discussing to pass them through a scanner to see if there are any capacitors or coils in there. Lovely middle, but they seemed very opinionated. Especially for the price.
Dynamics
12-03-2017, 00:07
Just testing my signature
walpurgis
12-03-2017, 00:12
It's working OK.
Not heard the rest, but I do like the CD-T.
I've heard perfectly ordinary cables change the sound significantly if there was a serious amp/ speaker mis-match: if the amp was not liking the load I mean. Plus personal taste in presentation. That makes it hard to establish any sort of set 'character' to any specific cable.
That there are speaker cables for sale that are deliberately designed to alter the signal in specific ways just adds mud to already muddy water.
It doesn't help that you have a lot of engineer types who regard their textbook as the Koran and say there can never be any differences unless the cable is truly bizarre. So we never get any serious scientific investigation into the whole issue. (I'm not counting cable companies' 'research' here as it is just marketing puff). Like they did in the early days of audio we just have to try it for ourselves and report what we find.
dimkasta
12-03-2017, 01:55
There is a very interesting article by Nelson Pass dating back at the 80s. Tries to keep an open mind and provides measurements.
http://www.firstwatt.com/pdf/art_spkr_cable.pdf
Interestingly enough, whenever I quoted it, those religious engineer types that need to explain everything with plain ohm's law, keep ignoring it and go on their merry way continuing to patronize and deride everyone that says that things could be more complicated when dealing with frequencies, even low ones.
I've heard perfectly ordinary cables change the sound significantly if there was a serious amp/ speaker mis-match: if the amp was not liking the load I mean. Plus personal taste in presentation. That makes it hard to establish any sort of set 'character' to any specific cable.
That there are speaker cables for sale that are deliberately designed to alter the signal in specific ways just adds mud to already muddy water.
It doesn't help that you have a lot of engineer types who regard their textbook as the Koran and say there can never be any differences unless the cable is truly bizarre. So we never get any serious scientific investigation into the whole issue. (I'm not counting cable companies' 'research' here as it is just marketing puff). Like they did in the early days of audio we just have to try it for ourselves and report what we find.
Good post Martin and for the large part, I agree. However it is not true to say that there has never been any serious research, because there has, plenty of it. Way back, in fact, after the first "golden geometry" was first rediscovered (and I say "rediscovered as it was initially designed in the early 1900's by Western Electric for telecommunications and low loss signal transmission ). Later, JBL did some pretty thorough research, as did other 'speaker manufacturers and amplifier manufacturers. There are still some speaker manufacturers who blindly claim that you can use any old bell wire or cooker wire with their speakers, but that's because they use highly inefficient system designs with high order passive filters which tend to mask any changes of a few metres of wire upstream (being cruel, some might also add that they also rob the music of music!)
It's not really rocket science, it's audio engineering. Do people still actually believe that no-one understands what a speaker cable does or how it reacts to (possibly) change the sound dependant upon amplifier design and speaker load? It is well understood. The only people who don't seem to grasp that are some hifi enthusiasts themselves!
In fact, it seems to be a prevalent attitude on here that most audio engineers are somehow tone deaf or not able to use their ears. We are able to, we have a perfectly evolved set ourselves (most of us! ;)) and we are NOT immune to hearing exactly what everyone else hears. Is it not quite derisory to suggest otherwise as a general statement? However, I don't know of any audio engineer who would dismiss claims of audible differences where clearly, they exist for reasons of cables introducing more reactance in an already reactive circuit. There may be one or two who blindly dismiss any claims of audibility irrespective, but In such cases, would you take what they had to say seriously since they've already called into question their own understanding? They are, thankfully, VERY few and far between.
As you have pointed out, there is not some specific character that one can readily attribute to "cable A" over "cable B" simply because any cable is just a part of a circuit, admittedly a part without which there would be no sound...
You also have many, many metres more cable, mostly very small gauge copper, mostly in a configuration that is in a more reactive part of the "circuit" downstream in that circuit of the speaker cable. That is contained within the filter inductors in the case of passive networks and in the drive unit voice coils themselves, so adding a metre or so of boutique cable up front sometimes has less of an effect than some would care to admit. However, in SOME situations, where the over-riding effects of altering anything between amplifier and filter are likely to be audibly reactive (eg poorly designed amplifiers that rely on cables for electrical damping, or highly demanding loudspeaker loads, or just plain weird loudspeaker loads...) then you are very likely to hear a difference, or if very unlucky, see smoke emanating from your amplifier in the most extreme cases, if using a highly reactive cable of some length.
Speaker cables DO make a difference. Just how much of a difference depends entirely on the amp and speaker characteristics. It really is that simple. For the most part, in the case of sensibly designed amplifiers, well matched to the 'speakers, and where the speaker load is relatively benign, the main characteristic that matters is simply loop resistance and that can easily be worked out to ensure things like DF are adequate and that the geometry doesn't cause unwanted filter effects. There may well be those willing to spend many ££££'s on boutique speaker cables which use weird geometry's designed to be deliberately reactive at higher frequencies, or have little boxes attached ( many containing things like unnecessary RFI filters or Zobels, the latter actually rolling the signal off) and claiming wonderful things about what "it can do for YOUR system" without knowing anything whatsoever about YOUR system! Such claims are to be viewed with healthy suspicion.
There is a very interesting article by Nelson Pass dating back at the 80s. Tries to keep an open mind and provides measurements.
http://www.firstwatt.com/pdf/art_spkr_cable.pdf
Interestingly enough, whenever I quoted it, those religious engineer types that need to explain everything with plain ohm's law, keep ignoring it and go on their merry way continuing to patronize and deride everyone that says that things could be more complicated when dealing with frequencies, even low ones.
With respect, that article is hardly ground breaking news to any audio engineer and simply deals with reactance effects, and effects on unstable amp output circuits, and uses some very subjective assessment as well as measurement (some of which is highly questionable in the realms of audio, and the suspicious amongst us do view such things with healthy scepticism). To suggest that speaker cable connectors cause "...high amounts of harmonic and intermodulation distortion..." ....really?
I am in the process of writing an article for an Italian magazine on this subject. A brief summery of it would be about how in modern times how stereo preamps have abandoned any equalization controls and send the signal straight through, hoping to preserve as much of the signal as possible. So now days people buy cables to attempt to equalize their stereos. Interconnects and Speaker wires are sold upon their ability to make the signal more lean, or less lean, fatter in the midrange, etc. to select a cable for your system depends on the nature of your gear. If it is bright, you buy rolled off cables to compensate, and visa versa.
If you could hold your amp directly up to the speaker terminals, so no cable was used. A direct connection between the amp and speaker, that should theoretically be the ideal connection, no wire at all. And this is used by many as the goal of speaker cable designers to get as close to that ideal as possible. So, anything that a cable does to change that sound is completely subtractive. It is altering the signal by some subtractive nature, it cannot make signal, it cannot add anything to the signal, and if it does not sound exactly like no cable at all, then it is removing something. And the designers of cables do their research to determine what makes the most desirable outcome, which frequencies should be affected for the best sonic results? The materials that wires are made from are not intrinsically expensive, so when you are paying tens of thousands for a speaker wire, the majority of that money is to pay for the research and development, and to pay the designer for his choices, for his intellect. How much his intellect is worth is completely up to the individual.
Personally, I can't see how they can justify a $40,000 pair of speaker wires. The materials are just not there, so $39,000 of that money pays the man for designing the wires. When you think about the research and development that went into designing a Lexus coupe of the same price, it begins to seem overpriced. But, that's just me. What the designer's intellect is worth is strictly up to the individual.
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But for your research, my system is:
Krell FPB-300, sold new for $9,000.
Legacy Focus 20/20, sold new for $7,000.
Cables number one are Legacy speaker wires, 8 foot pair, with WBT locking bananas. Price unknown. I don't think they make cables anymore? I Googled it and couldn't come up with anything, but I paid $400 used when I got the speakers. They came with the speakers to me.
Cables number 2 are some home made 10 gauge OFC copper cables, just Siamese Monster cheap stuff, $1 a foot maybe? I terminated with gold plated spades.
The homemade wires seem to be more bass heavy, the highs are nice, nothing wrong with them. But the Legacy cables are not as bass heavy, and seem to preserve more air at the top. But these observations are slight, far from major.
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It's not really rocket science, it's audio engineering. Do people still actually believe that no-one understands what a speaker cable does or how it reacts to (possibly) change the sound dependant upon amplifier design and speaker load? It is well understood. The only people who don't seem to grasp that are some hifi enthusiasts themselves!
In fact, it seems to be a prevalent attitude on here that most audio engineers are somehow tone deaf or not able to use their ears. We are able to, we have a perfectly evolved set ourselves (most of us! ;)) and we are NOT immune to hearing exactly what everyone else hears. Is it not quite derisory to suggest otherwise as a general statement? However, I don't know of any audio engineer who would dismiss claims of audible differences where clearly, they exist for reasons of cables introducing more reactance in an already reactive circuit. There may be one or two who blindly dismiss any claims of audibility irrespective, but In such cases, would you take what they had to say seriously since they've already called into question their own understanding? They are, thankfully, VERY few and far between.
.
No I don't think that at all, I'd dispute that it is the prevalent attitude on this site too, although there may be some who hold that view, or more likely have their view misinterpreted that way. I am very much for engineering-led solutions in audio. As they say an engineer is a man who can make for fifty pence what any fool can make for five pounds. Being tight I am all for approaches that make good audio kit cheaper.
I do not think that the full story behind cables is known, since either there is more to it than just the LCR measurements, or we are more sensitive and /or the kit is more sensitive to small changes in LCR. Either way I think there is more to it than is currently acknowledged by the textbooks. Not taking about AoS specifically since this is a subjectivist forum, but there are a lot of engineering types out there in internet hi-fi land who will dismiss any claims of differences being heard in normally measuring cables as imagination. That is a quick and easy explanation to latch on to, thing is that it doesn't work - if you have actually heard these differences you don't buy that it is a flight of fancy.
Especially if you do not hear what you expected. I was so sure that cables could not possibly make a difference! Empirical science says it cannot! But, upon my first listen at the local salon, I was sold, differences were blatantly obvious, and everyone in the room heard the same thing. Mass hallucinations? Seems very unlikely.
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It's one of those irregular verbs
I hear differences
You might be imagining it
He is away with the fairies.
dimkasta
12-03-2017, 14:58
With respect, that article is hardly ground breaking news to any audio engineer and simply deals with reactance effects,
Well yes it was published 30 years ago :)
and effects on unstable amp output circuits,
You are a bit unfair here. Only a part of the article refers to problems caused by unstable wide bandwidth amps. And it is part of the demonstration that things are happening at frequencies above the audible spectrum as amps tend to have wider bandwidths.
and uses some very subjective assessment as well as measurement (some of which is highly questionable in the realms of audio, and the suspicious amongst us do view such things with healthy scepticism).
The good thing about technical talk is that it should be easy to pinpoint the subjective parts and try to replace them with objective observations in order to reject or accept them.
I would sensirely be very interested in further discussing the parts you consider questionable.
To suggest that speaker cable connectors cause "...high amounts of harmonic and intermodulation distortion..." ....really?
Does it really sound so strange that a pour connection in series with the signal can cause distortion?
I have seen this many times and the audible effect is not subtle. Never pinpointed the distortion type though :) . It is the reason why I always both crimp/screw and solder my cable connectors.
dimkasta
12-03-2017, 15:01
Its madness ;)
https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/0a/a2/df/9d/sign-post-around-the.jpg
:D :D
Dynamics
12-03-2017, 16:00
Ive been trying with 3 cables this pm from my chord epic reference to some talk 4 cable and to then some qed silver anniversary xt cable
Chord epic reference £150/m, 2mm silver coated copper conductors
Talk 4 with 4mm copper conductors, £5/m ish in 1997,'probably £10 now.- good and open and airy sound but not quite as organised as the chord with the layering of the sounds . This talk cable was horrendous with my old pmc 20-23s (with exactly same amps I now have) and sapping all dynamics from the sound, but it's good with my pmc 25-23s strangely.
Qed xt silver anniversary 1.3mm £7.00 / m, tinny and lacking in bass dynamics and bass responsiveness and openness to the chord. Definitely not an option. Turned it up a bit but it's not any volume change. Definetely dynamics.
The chord is probably the best but not at all great value. So I've actually just learnt I may possibly have bought something like the talk cable for my 25-23s but I didn't use it for older 20-23s. Defo the qed is not the best but an 'expert' was telling me for the resistance of the speakers I only need 1mm conductors and copper, so maybe he could be correct with these speakers and getting near to the sound im getting from the chords. But I don't think I'll change as the chord cables are very good anyway. Just goes to show how nothing is certain and the part amps and speakers individually make on systems and benefits of cable.
Ive been trying with 3 cables this pm from my chord epic reference to some talk 4 cable and to then some qed silver anniversary xt cable
Chord epic reference £150/m, 2mm silver coated copper conductors
Talk 4 with 4mm copper conductors, £5/m ish in 1997,'probably £10 now.- good and open and airy sound but not quite as organised as the chord with the layering of the sounds . This talk cable was horrendous with my old pmc 20-23s (with exactly same amps I now have) and sapping all dynamics from the sound, but it's good with my pmc 25-23s strangely.
Qed xt silver anniversary 1.3mm £7.00 / m, tinny and lacking in bass dynamics and bass responsiveness and openness to the chord. Definitely not an option. Turned it up a bit but it's not any volume change. Definetely dynamics.
The chord is probably the best but not at all great value. So I've actually just learnt I may possibly have bought something like the talk cable for my 25-23s but I didn't use it for older 20-23s. Defo the qed is not the best but an 'expert' was telling me for the resistance of the speakers I only need 1mm conductors and copper, so maybe he could be correct with these speakers and getting near to the sound im getting from the chords. But I don't think I'll change as the chord cables are very good anyway. Just goes to show how nothing is certain and the part amps and speakers individually make on systems and benefits of cable.
Not surprised the Chord Epic reference sounded the best. I use the Epic Twin and have not found anything that comes near.
hifinutt
12-03-2017, 17:59
always common ground in hi fi though which is interesting.
I think £30/m is expensive. I spent £150/m for chord epic reference, which is clearly very expensive and could be hard for some to justify for what it is. I just thought it was better than the much cheaper epic twin, it suited the system very well indeed, it's well screened with individual shielding for each conductor, it is probably the last speaker cable I'll buy, and therefore it is very worth it and value. I also appreciate law of diminishing returns comes in too so I'm paying more for lower performance proportionate to price. Also if I do have to sell it because I come across a cable as well performing at a lower price, that's an option too.
i was pleased to see the design of the reference at the bristol show . i do love epic . i have done a sort of epic reference by buying 2 lengths of epic and running them alongside to each speaker terminal [ i length epic to red 1 length to black ]
sq225917
12-03-2017, 18:04
I used to think cables made a difference, so much so that I commissioned some 4n silver foil speaker cables. However, I've since come to appreciate that without the 'benefit' of sighted bias, sufficiently thick copper all sounds the same on decent amps that don't require a specific cable recipe for stability. I still use the silver wire and the most basic of copper studio wire everywhere else.
If a user has experience of Chord's top end wire 'tuned array' sounding different there is perfectly good electrical reasons why this should be the case, they do after all include frequency filters in the sleeves.
Dynamics
12-03-2017, 19:06
Not surprised the Chord Epic reference sounded the best. I use the Epic Twin and have not found anything that comes near.
I used epic twin for a while before I upgraded to reference, but I agree not much comes close. The reference beats the twin but reference is not as good value.
I went to a chord demo at Bristol 2017 and it was clear as day between odyssey, epic and epic reference . Then Sarum was a step up but the difference to the Sarum t (with Taylon) not huge for me. It was a naim/neat system worth at least £20k I'd say.
People have been challenging me to a blind test on another forum. What I thought I could do is use speaker junction boxes as I don't like the idea of people repetitively swapping cables over and breaking a pin or scratching the back plate of my speakers. This way we could connect short lengths between the amps and one box, put all the cables between the box and another box before the speakers, and then another short length of wire. Or would this mess the sound up such it would degrade the test making it a difficult comparison. I maybe can't be bothered if I can't do that, but I may ask a firm if they would loan me boxes and we'd publish online. That way you'd get continuity with pressing a button.
It would be a double blind abx test with me selecting tracks and repeating on each track, then they would have to get used to the differences, then I would test them too. What do you think. I may ask futureshop if they would assist with the boxes.
Made redundant about 14 years ago I had made enough contacts through Audiogon that I managed to make a living (just) buying cables from the States and selling them here. To give you an idea I could order custom made Kimber, sell it at half the price of Russ Andrews and still make a decent profit.
This led to Shunyata, Virtual Dynamics, Elrod etc , etc.
All went fine and dandy, well apart from people 'borrowing' 3K worth of Shunyata for months and then looking for a deal?, followed by a couple of local dealers/shysters opening up.
Still amazes me that a cables a cable or your system lacks something if it needs tuned by cables. My systems have never lacked much but it never fails to amaze
me how changing power cables can alter the sound, i/c's, well sometimes.
Re your survey - speaker cables:
Top of the range Kimber to HMS Gran Finale on Musical Fidelity Nu Vista amp.. night and day
Pass Labs X -250, could never make my mind up between Cerious Technologies or Virtual Dynamics speaker cables, both which cost a fortune but sounded subtly different
Audiopax mono blocks with above cables, what have I done? tried some cheap Aural Thrills and relieved, trailed said Audiopax down to my mates in Redcar with some bits off Kimber 4TC to save him upsetting his system, woa, my new amps sound s--t.
Swapped over to his Cutloose silver/palladium ribbon speaker cables, these now reside in my system.. 1600 quid for a pair of speaker cables:stalks:, exactly, like the 16K my power amps cost, only if you are daft enough to pay that kind of money to people who from recent experience are.. well lets say their commission is a tad more important than you getting value for money or good advice.
I've had all the a cables a cable, a racks a rack, isolation devices nonsense stuff years ago from people who wanted you to buy new boxes, funnily enough they have all cottoned on to the fact you can make money from Snake Oil.. or is it.
I've been banned from a few Forums in the past as it really annoys me when people who have no experience or knowledge of the changes you can make when you have access to thousands of pounds worth of different cables suggest myself and for a while, my customers were deluded fools with more money than sense.
I now have a system I never dreamed of owning and delight in not giving a toss what anyone does or doesn't believe, given it now appears cheaper to collect Supercars than buy Hi-Fi:lol:
I used epic twin for a while before I upgraded to reference, but I agree not much comes close. The reference beats the twin but reference is not as good value.
I went to a chord demo at Bristol 2017 and it was clear as day between odyssey, epic and epic reference . Then Sarum was a step up but the difference to the Sarum t (with Taylon) not huge for me. It was a naim/neat system worth at least £20k I'd say.
People have been challenging me to a blind test on another forum. What I thought I could do is use speaker junction boxes as I don't like the idea of people repetitively swapping cables over and breaking a pin or scratching the back plate of my speakers. This way we could connect short lengths between the amps and one box, put all the cables between the box and another box before the speakers, and then another short length of wire. Or would this mess the sound up such it would degrade the test making it a difficult comparison. I maybe can't be bothered if I can't do that, but I may ask a firm if they would loan me boxes and we'd publish online. That way you'd get continuity with pressing a button.
It would be a double blind abx test with me selecting tracks and repeating on each track, then they would have to get used to the differences, then I would test them too. What do you think. I may ask futureshop if they would assist with the boxes.
I know a chap whose system is completely wired with Chord Music -it is rather special!
hifinutt
12-03-2017, 21:29
I used epic twin for a while before I upgraded to reference, but I agree not much comes close. The reference beats the twin but reference is not as good value.
I went to a chord demo at Bristol 2017 and it was clear as day between odyssey, epic and epic reference . Then Sarum was a step up but the difference to the Sarum t (with Taylon) not huge for me. It was a naim/neat system worth at least £20k I'd say.
People have been challenging me to a blind test on another forum. What I thought I could do is use speaker junction boxes as I don't like the idea of people repetitively swapping cables over and breaking a pin or scratching the back plate of my speakers. This way we could connect short lengths between the amps and one box, put all the cables between the box and another box before the speakers, and then another short length of wire. Or would this mess the sound up such it would degrade the test making it a difficult comparison. I maybe can't be bothered if I can't do that, but I may ask a firm if they would loan me boxes and we'd publish online. That way you'd get continuity with pressing a button.
It would be a double blind abx test with me selecting tracks and repeating on each track, then they would have to get used to the differences, then I would test them too. What do you think. I may ask futureshop if they would assist with the boxes.
I went to that demo but found it a bit hard as they played loads of different tracks . I would have preferred one or two track only to tell difference
Well yes it was published 30 years ago :)
You are a bit unfair here. Only a part of the article refers to problems caused by unstable wide bandwidth amps. And it is part of the demonstration that things are happening at frequencies above the audible spectrum as amps tend to have wider bandwidths.
The good thing about technical talk is that it should be easy to pinpoint the subjective parts and try to replace them with objective observations in order to reject or accept them.
I would sensirely be very interested in further discussing the parts you consider questionable.
Does it really sound so strange that a pour connection in series with the signal can cause distortion?
I have seen this many times and the audible effect is not subtle. Never pinpointed the distortion type though :) . It is the reason why I always both crimp/screw and solder my cable connectors.
Errr...the distortion claim does sound strange, especially as there is no physical mechanism for any "harmonic" or "intermodulation" distortion to occur. That is plain, unadulterated, pure nonsense! I am not in dispute over poor connections and happen to use some very good connectors myself where things are not hard wired.
I'd also dispute the claims of harmonic or intermodulation distortion, but poor connections can increase contact resistance [and thus integrity], which *can* cause audible sonic degradation.
At least that's certainly been my experience with both mains and signal cables :)
Marco.
Sonic degradation can only be noise or distortion and technically speaking I think noise is a type of distortion.
Yes, I agree - and it happens whenever the signal is interrupted or compromised in some way, so attach whatever description you like to the effect :)
Marco.
Yes, I agree - and it happens whenever the signal is interrupted or compromised in some way, so attach whatever description you like to the effect :)
Marco.
I don't know. I've yet to be convinced that the type of plug used on a cable is audibly distinguishable.
Fair enough.
I've done the comparison enough times now to clearly hear the (admittedly subtle, but worthwhile) sonic improvements gained from, say, upgrading cheap, mass-produced, brass-constructed phono or banana plugs, with high-quality solid-copper or silver varieties.
However, for best results, the same has to be done on the sockets to which they connect ;)
The problem is, most folks own commercially produced equipment and don't want to risk 'devaluing' it, fitting different sockets, and often having to drill out holes in cases, in order to get better ones to fit.
Marco.
dimkasta
13-03-2017, 12:49
Any change in sound caused by exchanging parts is due to distortion by definition.
We cannot claim there is a merit in using better parts without accepting that there is increased distortion in poor ones (noise, harmonics, frequency attenuation or whatever).
And such harmonic distortion effects (including intermodulation) on conductive surfaces are real and are even used commercially on industrial real-time surface quality and corrosion monitoring systems.
Any change in sound caused by exchanging parts is due to distortion by definition.
We cannot claim there is a merit in using better parts without accepting that there is increased distortion in poor ones (noise, harmonics, frequency attenuation or whatever).
Yes, I would agree, otherwise the change in sound was imagined. There has to be some form of mechanism (measurable or otherwise) responsible for effecting any genuine change.
Marco.
Any change in sound caused by exchanging parts is due to distortion by definition.
We cannot claim there is a merit in using better parts without accepting that there is increased distortion in poor ones (noise, harmonics, frequency attenuation or whatever).
And such harmonic distortion effects (including intermodulation) on conductive surfaces are real and are even used commercially on industrial real-time surface quality and corrosion monitoring systems.
Audible Inter-modulation distortion, and harmonic distortion come to that, cannot be caused by speaker cable connections to binding posts. You can have poor connections and audible improvements may be had by improving the connection. Often I've seen corroded or damaged cable at some soldered joints when repairing cables, and some very poor terminations. Done properly, impedance across most good connections will be less than 0.05 of an Ohm at DC across most binding posts junctions...(yes...I've measured them!) but not enough, unless really corroded or filthy, to make much of a difference. Connector reliability and durability matter far more. Personally, I use Furutech FP 202 connectors because I like them but they do come at a price. Nagamichi spade connectors are also superb and amazingly good value by comparison.
Passive intermodulation can be caused at the junction of dissimilar metals or if there is an oxide layer involved, or if permeable (magnetic) materials are used. This phenomenon is well known in RF circles (often referred to as the "rusty bolt effect").
I was involved with the design of a harmonic radar system, where we had to suppress the self-generation of harmonics to a level of -134dBc. This meant we had to avoid Wilikinson power splitters (because of the nichrome bridging resistors used) and stainless steel connectors, amongst other things.
However at audio frequencies this phenomenon is highly unlikely to be audible. IMO, all one sensibly needs to use is cable having low loop resistance and inductance (such that the impedance at 10 - 20kHz is no more than 0.4 Ohm) with sensible tight fitting plugs or spade terminals that can be screwed down firmly.
walpurgis
31-03-2017, 17:43
Maybe a few metres of this would sort most systems out. Don't forget it's mono, so you'd need to double up. .
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/wire/audio-note-cable-700-spx-silver.html
Oh, and factor in the cost of suitably good plugs.
These might do. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Furutech-CF-202-R-Carbon-Fibre-Series-Banana-Plugs-Pair-/291792263455?hash=item43f02c991f:g:jZEAAOSwjXRXYBf N
Maybe a few metres of this would sort most systems out. Don't forget it's mono, so you'd need to double up.
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/wire/audio-note-cable-700-spx-silver.html
can i have an inch please?:D
Years ago I had an Adcom 555 and back then, good OFC Monster cable was all there was, high end cable had not been "invented" yet. Anyway, I rung off the posts! So, I soldered the wire directly to the amp. Worked great! But didn't sound any different.
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Haselsh1
02-04-2017, 06:11
All I can really add to this thread is that I used to use Mark Grant VDC 4mm cables and I swapped to Van Den Hul Teatrack biwired stereo and in my system there very definitely was a difference to the sound and a difference that I was happy with.
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