View Full Version : ARC Reference 5 Preamp
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/ARC_REF5_top.jpg
Just seen this. I wonder how many thousands it'll cost in the UK? Doesn't look much inside, although I know the case wouldn't be cheap, even for them.
P.S. There's a 6550 in the power supply.....
Spectral Morn
30-12-2009, 19:33
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/ARC_REF5_top.jpg
Just seen this. I wonder how many thousands it'll cost in the UK? Doesn't look much inside, although I know the case wouldn't be cheap, even for them.
P.S. There's a 6550 in the power supply.....
£3000 ish...at a guess.
Regards D S D L
It's a REFERENCE model Neil, and they normally sell for up to £10,000. perhapds HiFi dave still gets Ab Sounds' price lists....
Stratmangler
30-12-2009, 19:40
£3000 ish...at a guess.
Regards D S D L
And the rest http://cgi.ebay.ph/Audio-Research-Reference-5-Ref5-stereo-tube-preamp_W0QQitemZ350248051516QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_ DefaultDomain_0?hash=item518c69233c
Chris:)
Spectral Morn
30-12-2009, 19:40
It's a REFERENCE model Neil, and they normally sell for up to £10,000. perhapds HiFi dave still gets Ab Sounds' price lists....
I was working on the basis of what the BAT VK3ix costs, about the same sort of innards.
Edit...okay I am wrong and I know nothing, I will take myself off and exterminate myself.....................................LOL
Regards D S D L
hifi_dave
30-12-2009, 19:46
Well, at the old VAT rate it was £10,498 - YES, almost TEN AND A HALF GRAND :eek:
But for that you do get an awful lot of........... air space..:lol:
Actually, I'm still deciding if it's as good as a Bugati or as fast as a Patek but I haven't tried it with my Billy Cotton cylinders yet.
Well! I apologise for stirring it a bit, but looking at a 10 times markup I'd have put the price at around £3,000 as well - £100 for casework, £50 for valves (bulk prices) and £150 for the boutique caps etc (circuit board, resistors and relays cost pennies or less at the quantity they buy).
I hope Matt O'D gets to see this, or maybe HiFi dave could take a photo of the Series 25R inside to see what you're getting for your £1400 approx.........
Spectral Morn
30-12-2009, 19:56
My Bat VK31se has more going for it internally imho....half the price, though whether its as good or not I don't know, never heard any ARC kit ever...the dealership I was in could never join the Absolute Sounds club.... Entry cost was way to dear.
Regards D S D L
hifi_dave
30-12-2009, 20:06
We did ARC for a number of years but then along came Croft, EAR, Tube Tech, Audio Innovations, Concordant and other GB companies and we gave up on the imported gear. The British gear at one tenth the cost was reliable, quiet, didn't go wrong, didn't change with the wind and sounded BETTER.
How you possibly justify the cost of that Ref 5 I just don't know. Look at the pics and count the cost yourself. FFS you could buy a half decent pen for that....:stalks:
Oh, just realised, you pictured the black version, so you can probably add a further couple of hundred !!!
The Grand Wazoo
31-12-2009, 00:23
So, has anyone actually heard any of the ARC Reference components?
(Hifi Dave) Dave,
With the greatest respect, you seem to have experience of the SP11 - 15 era ARC preamps which were rather different to the Ref. series.
I'm not trying to justify the price, but I am trying to justify the actual worth of the thing as a component.
That's why I bought my SP8 second-hand.
Rare Bird
31-12-2009, 00:25
Think i'd rather buy an older ARC as Chris has..
I listened to a new AR power amp at a local dealers earlier this year and it sounded really harsh for a valve amp:( i hated it.
hifi_dave
31-12-2009, 09:21
So, has anyone actually heard any of the ARC Reference components?
(Hifi Dave) Dave,
With the greatest respect, you seem to have experience of the SP11 - 15 era ARC preamps which were rather different to the Ref. series.
I'm not trying to justify the price, but I am trying to justify the actual worth of the thing as a component.
That's why I bought my SP8 second-hand.
I do try to keep my ear on the ball (?) and have heard previous Ref products but not this latest model, which is why I didn't comment on the sound. I simply find it difficult to justify the cost, when you look inside.
Sp8 and SP10 are severely warm and cuddly - not HiFi in the purest sense of the word as they ADD colour of their own to a very high degree. trouble is, the SP14 and 16 which replaced them were largely Mos-Fet inside (only one valve in my SP14) and this, coupled with the more honest and neutral tones, put ARC fans off, although it didn't stop ARC doing some ss line preamps. By the time I returned to KJ for a few months on 1988, the LS16 and 25 were about, fully valved and cuddly balance too. They were very clear though in sound, just "wrong..."
The Grand Wazoo
31-12-2009, 10:50
I got rid of that tubbiness when I found how sensitive it is to proper siting & after I spent ages trying different combinations of valves.
OK, no fancy caps or wiring here, just 1990 vintage hair shirt. It don't arf sound good though....
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/Croft4PPrecap1.jpg
Spectral Morn
31-12-2009, 16:15
I always wondered, how much better that Croft would sound with the valves mounted up right and with a better heavier case. Valves are microphonic to varying degrees..so logically if you mount them sideways on a thin circuit board, that board will vibrate and thus transmit more vibration (perhaps not) into the glass. Damping would help, but that would put more weight on the board, and again perhaps stress it, affecting the sound....again perhaps.
Does mounting signal tubes side on shorten their life...I have often heard it said that it does with power valves.
So a case re-build of a Croft, with the valves mounted upright...keeping signal paths the same and as short (not very pretty perhaps)....would it improve the designs sound much or a little or not at all...or make it worse ? Anyone know ?
Regards D S D L
hifi_dave
31-12-2009, 16:26
I'm no engineer but I know that the first Croft pre I sold some 25 years ago is still working just fine with the original tubes. So small signal tubes sideways on are no problem but (possibly) large o/p tubes could have a shortened life if laying down but not many amps do this.
As for short signal paths - most of the components in the pre that DSJR has shown are soldered directly to one another or with just a tag in between, so the paths are very short indeed. As for the wires you see, they are more substantial than a piece of PCB track would be if rolled up and need to be a certain length in order to keep noise down.
Knowing Glenn, if he thought the sound would improve with a little tweak, he would do it I'm sure.
Ali Tait
31-12-2009, 17:16
I don't think it matters much for small valves,but you can't lay a 300b on it's side as the filaments sag and short to the anode.People have done this taking them out of an amp while still hot and laying them down.
Sp8 and SP10 are severely warm and cuddly - not HiFi in the purest sense of the word as they ADD colour of their own to a very high degree. trouble is, the SP14 and 16 which replaced them were largely Mos-Fet inside (only one valve in my SP14) and this, coupled with the more honest and neutral tones, put ARC fans off, although it didn't stop ARC doing some ss line preamps. By the time I returned to KJ for a few months on 1988, the LS16 and 25 were about, fully valved and cuddly balance too. They were very clear though in sound, just "wrong..."
my hugely modified sp8 and sp10 are in no way 'wrong' 'warm' 'cuddly' or 'crap'....in my opinion they are the best arc components and will eat a ref3 or 5 easily......whether a ref 5 is 'worth' 10K+ is up to those with 10k+
similar cobblers exists in horology.....apart from true manufactures like patek and a handfull of others, most 'high end' watches have run of the mill eta/ valjoux movements.....would you pay 10K for a Tag Heuer knowing the mech is a 99quid eta mass produced piece of clag?
and does anyone moan when Naim or Linn release a 10K component? Is the CDP555 worth 15k?:mental:
Primalsea
31-12-2009, 17:31
I've heard an SP15 with the mono blocks (cant remember the model) as well as a D250. They all sounded really good with shed loads of dynamics. I'm guessing the Ref models improve a little possibly with more expensive components and better power supplies. However it would seem that the Ref models are for the "it's not what you buy but how much you paid for it" brigade. TBH If £10K didn't mean that much to me and the product was excellent I would probably buy it.
similar cobblers exists in horology.....apart from true manufactures like patek and a handfull of others, most 'high end' watches have run of the mill eta/ valjoux movements.....would you pay 10K for a Tag Heuer knowing the mech is a 99quid eta mass produced piece of clag?
Don't get me started on quartz watches like Tag with a battery inside and a £500 price tag to match, i just don't get them, might as well buy a Casio
Nothing wrong with a Vintage Valjoux movement though
bollocks I edited to much on my quote again
Ali Tait
31-12-2009, 18:10
How about Raymond Weil chaps? Decent movement,or not?
[QUOTE=bigmoog;90719]
similar cobblers exists in horology.....apart from true manufactures like patek and a handfull of others, most 'high end' watches have run of the mill eta/ valjoux movements.....would you pay 10K for a Tag Heuer knowing the mech is a 99quid eta mass produced piece of clag?
QUOTE]
Don't get me started on quartz watches like Tag with a battery inside and a £500 price tag to match, i just don't get them, might as well buy a Casio
Nothing wrong with a Vintage Valjoux movement though
bollocks I edited to much on my quote again
nothing wrong with valjoux, vintage or otherwise......quartz watches are like cd, they do the job but it aint music
Interesting to see inside a ARC REF5, thanks. 1000% profit probably. But then you're paying for the design expertise, exclusivity etc.
It looks like quite a simple design. I doubt it would cost much to replicate.
How about Raymond Weil chaps? Decent movement,or not?
If its mechanical then at least your getting a real life beating thing, but if its quartz then its back to the 99p fits all type stuff in my opinion
Ali Tait
31-12-2009, 18:46
It's an automatic.The back has a glass plate so you can see the movement.Looks nice and is signed Raymond Weil.Dunno how much that means.Just wondered if they do in fact make their own movements.
My heavy old Omega Constellation doesn't have a 99p movement in it, believe me. I don't even think it's a £1.99 one either.. It certainly costs enough to clean the bloomin thing and when returned, the battery lasts for years.....
BM, I'll never like the old ARC valve stuff, not matter how modified yours are. There's enough bass in them old TD recordings without the preamp sexing it up even more :D
Put it this way, Crofty sells his stuff through a small dealer network of friends, who don't seem to work on a huge margin. The fact that he can make a preamp with phono stage for £350 that would beat many others out there speaks volumes. According to the sparse pics on his site, he uses screened cables rather than the single core "telephone" wires in mine and the resistors look to be higher current rated than the Holco's in mine...
During a recent magazine review, I did have the privilege of hearing the A/R Ref 5 pre-amplifier (I believe it retails for around £10K).
Being frank It did leave me a little under whelmed. I feel it is more of a sideways move than a forward step for A/R, it presented a very solid and articulate sound, more detailed than the ref 3, bottom end was quite an improvement too.
Two schools of thought seem to exist with A/R owners, those that believe the 'old school' models are better and those that appreciate technological advancements.
For me some of the older models had that more 'swing factor' greater involvement, the new model is undoubtedly improved in many areas without question, it just (to me) lacks that 'involvement factor'.
Some may argue that spending 'x' on the latest may not be the way to go, quite possibly; however the individual auditioning the piece will have to make that decision for themselves!
One last word on the display, quite irksome.
I do not normally comment on these threads, it just so happened I actually heard the unit in the flesh and the above are my personal comments only.
Rare Bird
01-01-2010, 11:41
OK, no fancy caps or wiring here, just 1990 vintage hair shirt. It don't arf sound good though....
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/Croft4PPrecap1.jpg
That is one untidy layout ;)
The Grand Wazoo
01-01-2010, 12:17
During a recent magazine review, I did have the privilege of hearing the A/R Ref 5 pre-amplifier (I believe it retails for around £10K).
I do not normally comment on these threads, it just so happened I actually heard the unit in the flesh and the above are my personal comments only.
Thanks a lot for that.
I agree with you about the 'swing' being the difference between old & new (as I suppose I would being the owner of old).
My heavy old Omega Constellation doesn't have a 99p movement in it, believe me. I don't even think it's a £1.99 one either.. It certainly costs enough to clean the bloomin thing and when returned, the battery lasts for years.....
BM, I'll never like the old ARC valve stuff, not matter how modified yours are. There's enough bass in them old TD recordings without the preamp sexing it up even more :D
Put it this way, Crofty sells his stuff through a small dealer network of friends, who don't seem to work on a huge margin. The fact that he can make a preamp with phono stage for £350 that would beat many others out there speaks volumes. According to the sparse pics on his site, he uses screened cables rather than the single core "telephone" wires in mine and the resistors look to be higher current rated than the Holco's in mine...
yes, but Dave, you dont know how modified they are :ner:
Fair do's BM ;)
Andre, my old pre may be untidy inside, but I think I'd rather have direct point-to-point wiring. Shows it's been made by a human being (and the smaller supply caps are my addition under instruction from Glenn. The current ones look neater and have far fewer valves inside...
Fair do's BM ;)
Andre, my old pre may be untidy inside, but I think I'd rather have direct point-to-point wiring. Shows it's been made by a human being (and the smaller supply caps are my addition under instruction from Glenn. The current ones look neater and have far fewer valves inside...
dave, during our house move last year, the sp8 suffered damage....the switches broke :doh:....you wouldnt believe the service charge ABsounds are quoting:mental::mental:.....Im gonna build a DIY pre amp:eyebrows:
BM, I think the switches are good quality and available elsewhere? Ab Sounds don't have the monopoly on ARC valve gear service you know and even if you have to source the switch gear from ARC directly (much cheaper I suspect doing it this way), I'm sure you have a good local engineer not too far away who could fit them for you.
Happy New Year to all, by the way and I sincerely hope 2010 gives you a better time healthwise BM...
BM, I think the switches are good quality and available elsewhere? Ab Sounds don't have the monopoly on ARC valve gear service you know and even if you have to source the switch gear from ARC directly (much cheaper I suspect doing it this way), I'm sure you have a good local engineer not too far away who could fit them for you.
Happy New Year to all, by the way and I sincerely hope 2010 gives you a better time healthwise BM...
and a wonderful 2010 for you and yours dave (I may need your sequencing skills soon;))
Im retiring both ARC pre's.....for 2010 I am buying a new state of the art preamplification device with nos tubes from 1910:cool:
and I need a new decca :)
hifi_dave
01-01-2010, 15:02
BM, I think the switches are good quality and available elsewhere? Ab Sounds don't have the monopoly on ARC valve gear service you know and even if you have to source the switch gear from ARC directly (much cheaper I suspect doing it this way), I'm sure you have a good local engineer not too far away who could fit them for you.
Happy New Year to all, by the way and I sincerely hope 2010 gives you a better time healthwise BM...
The switches are available from RS for sure and (probably) other sources as well. Those switches were often going faulty when we were doing ARC and the replacement cost was horrendous, something like 20x the RS price which is already full retail.
What, to go with the three dozen Decca's you have already BM???????
hifi_dave
01-01-2010, 15:05
and a wonderful 2010 for you and yours dave (I may need your sequencing skills soon;))
Im retiring both ARC pre's.....for 2010 I am buying a new state of the art preamplification device with nos tubes from 1910:cool:
and I need a new decca :)
New London or (NOS) Decca ?
New London or (NOS) Decca ?
at some point in 2010 I want (rather than need) a silver (export), maroon and possibly a FFSS to round out my collection...and when funds allow I wanna reference:rolleyes:
Get 'em before they go through the roof...
(Over £100 for a Basik LVV arm, I ask you :scratch: It fetches more than the Basik Plus does)
anthonyTD
01-01-2010, 16:05
hi all,
i have serviced and repaired a lot of audio research gear over the years hence i feel i can comment from experience of working on them and to some extent on their sonic ability. the only piece of their kit i would personaly own is maybe an sp11 preamp, but only for its line level stage, IMHO a lot of the circuitry is over complicated, and thus can actualy detract from what is achievable sonically.
A...
Loads of global feedback???????
I cannot comment on the sonic performance of the ARC preamp because I haven't heard it, but it does seem rather a lot of money for what you're getting....
It's a personal thing, I know, but I wouldn't buy any valve design unless it was internally hard-wired point-to-point; circuit boards/tracks impart yet another signature on the music which I don't want.
Like Dave says, when equipment is hard-wired inside you know it's been made by a human being - such things matter to me :)
Marco.
hifi_dave
01-01-2010, 20:35
hi all,
i have serviced and repaired a lot of audio research gear over the years hence i feel i can comment from experience of working on them and to some extent on their sonic ability. the only piece of their kit i would personaly own is maybe an sp11 preamp, but only for its line level stage, IMHO a lot of the circuitry is over complicated, and thus can actualy detract from what is achievable sonically.
A...
Over complicated is the way I would describe a lot of 'high end' equipment. They appear to go all out to achieve good specs but throw out the sound by making the signal negotiate yards of PCB track and umpteen components. A better sound is usually achieved with a simple circuit, even if it doesn't measure quite so well. IMO
Hear, hear Dave! :clap:
I agree with that one MILLION per cent, especially your last sentence, although good valve gear usually also measures well..... Glenn's and Anthony TD's designs embody those principles, which is why they sound so very special.
Marco.
But you will find that as Glenn and Anthony's designs get even better sounding, they'll measure better too - lower noise floor, less distortion (all kinds of), higher overload margins and kinder clipping performance.
Yep, I completely agree.
There is undoubtedly a direct correlation between equipment measuring well and it sounding good - that is unquestionable. *BUT* it is not the be-all-and-end-all; one must also look at the bigger picture, the less obvious shades of grey, extending thought processes beyond the black & white, for combining the objective and the subjective with efficacy is where true magic in audio lies...
This is what separates truly great designers from merely good/competent ones.
Marco.
This is what separates truly great designers from merely good/competent ones.
Marco.
:exactly:
:peace:
:grouphug:
Post it on the HDD forum for the attention of AJ and his mutts ;)
Marco.
...Like me you mean......
Below, what I regard as an effective solid state preamp layout - just a simple class a gain stage with alps pot and relay switching..
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/LateraviS2000pre.jpg
I wonder who made it??? :lol:
P.S. Those metal can transistors get rather hot to touch within a minute or so and stay that way with no ill effect...
an effective solid state preamp...
That's a contradiction in terms in my world! :lol:
Marco.
nothing wrong with valjoux, vintage or otherwise......quartz watches are like cd, they do the job but it aint music
I have a Longines Conquest Ti VHP which has a quartz movement but is highly accurate (it drifts about 10 seconds in a year). It is now 20 years old and still looks and works beautifully.
Interesting to see inside a ARC REF5, thanks. 1000% profit probably.
But not all for ARC. Knowing Absolute Sounds, their profit would be huge. I've never agreed with their pricing structure and that's a shame as they carry some lines (like Wilson) that should be more widely known on these shores.
That's a contradiction in terms in my world!
Just wait 'til you hear the Pass XP-20...
I should've used a ';)', instead of a ':lol:' at the end of my last post....
:eyebrows:
Yes, I look forward to it Martin. How are you fixed for a visitation at the end of this month? PM me and we can thrash out a few suitable dates :cool:
Marco.
I have a Longines Conquest Ti VHP which has a quartz movement but is highly accurate (it drifts about 10 seconds in a year). It is now 20 years old and still looks and works beautifully.
longines make and have made some nice timepieces........:)
but for me, philosophically and quite stupidly, all quartz watches do not tell the time in quite the same way as a mechanical watch......:mental:
opinion based on years of sundial usage:cool:
Rare Bird
02-01-2010, 09:32
Fair do's BM ;)
Andre, my old pre may be untidy inside, but I think I'd rather have direct point-to-point wiring. Shows it's been made by a human being (and the smaller supply caps are my addition under instruction from Glenn. The current ones look neater and have far fewer valves inside...
Point to point is the way but can't you tidy it up, it no excuse for being untidy tho? change some of the cheap parts aswell be more tidy & sound bit better.
Rare Bird
02-01-2010, 09:36
...Like me you mean......
Below, what I regard as an effective solid state preamp layout - just a simple class a gain stage with alps pot and relay switching..
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/LateraviS2000pre.jpg
P.S. Those metal can transistors get rather hot to touch within a minute or so and stay that way with no ill effect...
Get some heatsink for em, they just slide over the tranny & stop at the collor, no heat trasfer paste or anything needed
The newer Croft stuff is definitely tidier inside, Andre - and Anthony's stuff is immaculate in that respect :)
There are no cheap parts inside my Crofty.... ;)
Marco.
Rare Bird
02-01-2010, 09:41
Anthony's stuff is immaculate in that respect :)
Because there is no excuse for untidy layout
There are no cheap parts inside my Crofty.... ;)
Probably cos you done the correct thing & replaced the cheap parts.
Because there is no excuse for untidy layout
You must admit though that you're just a teensy-weensy bit pernickety about that :eyebrows:
Marco.
Rare Bird
02-01-2010, 09:54
You must admit though that you're just a teensy-weensy bit pernickety about that :eyebrows:
Marco.
One of my pet hates is untidy electronics. If their is one thing i love about say Naim & Onix is the layouts, i know they are transistor circuits but it's still the tidyness that counts.
I repeat that I'd still rather have point-to-point than a tidy circuit layout that involves extra track or wiring in the cause of "neatness."
By the way Andre, the resistors in my preamp were Holco as I recall, the caps were selected for type to do the job properly and in fact the huge supply caps were replaced with very much smaller Dubilier ones (size AND value). The cheapo solid core "telephone" wires make NO discernible difference to the sound as I can hear using speakers or headphones and although Glenn has offered to modify the phono stage so that I can use more common 50K pots, I still get a fantastic sound with the 1Meg basic ones fitted therein.
Rare Bird
02-01-2010, 10:52
I have said Point to Point circuits are the way to go within in a tube design, but i do disagree that cheap wiring is ok!..Re: Dubilier they aint good really dave when you face it are they!...Holco are great metal film Resistors if they are the original Meggitt Holsworthy ones cool..Your amp Dave at the end of the day.I recon that RS badged PSU cap wants outting aswell probably a cheap Aerovox..Something like a Kendeil
I'm not an electronics engineer, let alone an amp designer Andre, so I cannot possibly comment on quality of caps fitted. I did as I was told and left the RS cap because there was much soldering involved which I didn't feel competent to do.
All I can say is that the tube rolling I've done has wrought significantly audible differences whereas the cap changes and filter removal have been next to inaudible in my current setup. I have no intention to do any more at present as my sources need sorting out..
I repeat that I'd still rather have point-to-point than a tidy circuit layout that involves extra track or wiring in the cause of "neatness."
I'd completely agree with that. I know where Andre's coming from (in a way), but if I had to choose between neatness or the shortest signal path possible, the former would always come a very poor second :)
The lid hides things anyway, so why care what an amp looks like inside as long as it's safe?
Marco.
Rare Bird
02-01-2010, 11:50
I'd completely agree with that. I know where Andre's coming from (in a way), but if I had to choose between neatness or the shortest signal path possible, the former would always come a very poor second :)
An extra inch or so wire here & there aint gonna alter any quaity. ;)
The lid hides things anyway, so why care what an amp looks like inside as long as it's safe?
:eek: o dear the internals of anything are equaly as important as the outside.Something i was a stickler about when i used to make Turntable surrounds..Something i spotted straight away regarding that Garrard '401' plinth out of plywood posted on here, the cuttout is a rough as a dogs arse, i can see the router bit cuts all over the place
No internals are mega important to me re: the Holco resistors have the values pinted on the body in white, those value prints must all be all ontop & in line & facing the all equal way to the neighbouring resistor..things like that all adds to precison & neatness.
I'll not bore you all with mu obessional behaviour any more :)
Aspergics Anonymous here we come.......:lol:
Rare Bird
02-01-2010, 13:18
Obsessive compulsive disorder more like :lolsign:
Probably both Andre, probably both........ :peace:
In fact Andr'e prefers amps that are made by machines... ;)
Primalsea
02-01-2010, 17:56
The problem with neat wiring is that its not optimal. Everytime you route wiring so you can neatly cable tie it to other wires that have been routed in the same way you add the the capacitance and cross talk. The art is in routing the wires for shortest paths and via places of least interference from other components. The result is often a rats nest that doesnt look very pretty.
Steve Toy
03-01-2010, 21:44
I'd completely agree with that. I know where Andre's coming from (in a way), but if I had to choose between neatness or the shortest signal path possible, the former would always come a very poor second :)
The lid hides things anyway, so why care what an amp looks like inside as long as it's safe?
In a vain attempt ;) to get the charismatic Crofty up to AOS/Tube Distinctions standard some sticks of dynamite were added and now you can't even get the bloody lid on! :laugh:
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