View Full Version : Dsd Native Problem
terrys99
15-02-2017, 19:01
Hi all
Could anyone tell me why my new dac sounds flat?
I bought irdac 2 for my bedroom setup
I decided to use it with my main system, to hook up my irdac 2 to my cxa 80.
Using laptop and foobar.
Arcam informed me that the dac plays dsd native.
This is the setup
Laptop to irdac 2 USB
Changed settings in foobar to stream dsd native .
No dop.
Arcam driver tells me all is fine.
Now when I compare the sound with Cambridge cxn, it sounds flat.
Midrange isn't anywhere near the sq of the cxn.
I play dsd files from external hard drive to cxn, Cambridge told me the cxn downsample to 192.
Why would it sound so different??
Does dsd naturally sound flat played native???
If I flick between laptop ,(USB to irdac 2) and cxn. The difference is night and day.
Could it be that the irdac2 needs burn in?? Not sure that exists.
Forgot to add.
Playing flac 192 through irdac 2 then to cxn, there's no difference in sq , so is identical .
Just seems to be dsd native.
Thanks in advance
Stratmangler
15-02-2017, 19:12
Have you installed WASAPI for Foobar?
was going to say are you using asio or wasapi
terrys99
15-02-2017, 19:38
Yes. Asio.
Everything's working fine,
It's sending native.
I also used jriver,
It's definitely streaming native.
Iam beginning to think that sacd is naturally bland.
I suspect the Cambridge cxn is altering the sq.
Hrmmm sort of adding bells and whistles to the tracks.
I'm not a lover of sacd/DSD in general and its true that some players/decoders sound a lot better than others. This may well be what your hearing. You could try using wasapi and see if its any better; many think it is, including me. If you dont have the driver just download and then select it as output
Stratmangler
15-02-2017, 20:36
What do you get when you go to file/preferences/output, and look in the devices box?
Is there an Asio option there?
terrys99
15-02-2017, 21:38
What do you get when you go to file/preferences/output, and look in the devices box?
Is there an Asio option there?
Yes
Foo_asio
Then output arcam idac asio, thenvwindow appears to select native.
When i play dsd , it outputscat the correct sample rate.
My driver window comfirms this.
Iam satisfied that the irdac is reseiving the correct sample rate.
Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk
terrys99
15-02-2017, 21:41
Yes
Foo_asio
Then output arcam idac asio, thenvwindow appears to select native.
When i play dsd , it outputscat the correct sample rate.
My driver window comfirms this.
Iam satisfied that the irdac is reseiving the correct sample rate.
Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk
Sorry mispelling. Using phone to reply. Cant see the keypad to dam small ah....
Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk
Stratmangler
15-02-2017, 21:52
Yes
Foo_asio
Then output arcam idac asio, thenvwindow appears to select native.
When i play dsd , it outputscat the correct sample rate.
My driver window comfirms this.
Iam satisfied that the irdac is reseiving the correct sample rate.
Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk
Have you selected "arcam idac asio", and the hit the OK button?
We're talking about Foobar here, and it doesn't switch anything automatically.
If the output devices isn't properly selected the default action is to try and play the file by whatever means possible, including resampling and transcoding if necessary.
If you select "arcam idac asio" the Foobar will chuck the audio unmolested at the output device.
terrys99
15-02-2017, 22:16
Have you selected "arcam idac asio", and the hit the OK button?
We're talking about Foobar here, and it doesn't switch anything automatically.
If the output devices isn't properly selected the default action is to try and play the file by whatever means possible, including resampling and transcoding if necessary.
If you select "arcam idac asio" the Foobar will chuck the audio unmolested at the output device.
Yes arcam asio selected.
Foobar and asio driver window comfirms this.
I suspect that when i play from external hardrive connected to the cxn, it just sounds better , as the cxn converts dsd to 192 pcm.
I imagined sacd native would be better, because of the sabre dsd native dac in irdac 2.
I spoke to arcam when i first bought the unit.
They told me that the dac chip is native dsd 64 and 128, i have played 128 on the irdac, but i cannot compare that sample rate with cxn
Cxn is dsd 64.
Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk
I agree. You could try wasapi; it may sound a bit different
terrys99
16-02-2017, 09:40
Thanks to all who replied.
I did try waspi , same thing.
I have returned the irdac, for refund.
Maybe The irdac 2 just sounds different.
Can do without.
Thanks again to all.
Looking at the datasheet of the ESS9016 DAC chip that the irDAC2 uses, I would say that is in no way 'native' DSD playback. Looking at the block diagram you have a combined DSD/PCM interface which hands the data to an upsampler before the digital to analogue conversion takes place. That surely must mean that all of the data hitting the DAC, regardless of how it came in, is dong so in a common format. You would need a completely separate decoding path if you were handling DSD natively i.e. converting a 1-bit/2.8224MHz (or multiples of) directly to analogue.
SACD/DSD done properly (i.e. natively) to me sounds a lot more natural, relaxed and has this analogue like weight and tangibility over PCM. What I've heard of these hybrid decoders that take DSD and convert to high rate PCM lose all of these qualities. It seems the worst of all worlds to me. So it may simply be that having your computer convert DSD to PCM before it hits your irDAC does a better job of the conversion than your irDAC is doing.
I think it's just some clever wording:
It's native in the sense that it does not require any external devices to convert a DSD stream into something else before it hits the DAC, not in the sense that converting DSD into analogue is done without any intermediate stages. From what I know of the chipsets that handle pretty much any format you throw at them, they perform an intermediate conversion which will usually result in PCM before it hits the digital to analogue conversion stage. The truly native DSD DACs tend to be either DSD only or convert incoming PCM into DSD which then of course compromises your native PCM conversion. Given that the ESS DAC is an 'Ultra 32-bit 8 channel DAC' I can't imagine that it would be doing anything but converting DSD to PCM.
terrys99
16-02-2017, 16:04
Richard!
I read that using dop does not alter the dsd quality, is this correct?
Or does it still change to pcm.
I read on a review that dop is identical to dsd,
What's you opinion.
Thank you.
terrys99
16-02-2017, 17:19
Hi love joy
Ok I have called arcam in the uk.
I asked the question again.
He put me through to arcam engineer.
I explained about the pcm conversion ect...
He confirmed that the irdac 2 is dsd native, and that there is no pcm conversion before analog,
The ESS DACs all use their 'Hyperstream' conversion. I can't find any info on how this works.
From the little info I have found and what I have heard elsewhere (obviously can't verify) the Sabre's all convert to PCM before 'decoding'. I would really like to know for sure.
All the Manufacturers using the Sabres seem to be saying ''Native DSD'' supported. But is this 100% accurate?
Can anyone tell us what is actually going on inside a Sabre DAC? Lovejoy?
From what I've heard so far I don't like DSD. But then if all I have listened to is a Sabre converting everything to PCM then I can't say I'm surprised.
Just adding an Analogue Filter to a DSD stream also, to me, does not produce pleasing results.
Give me a Multi-Bit PCM DAC anyday.
Jim.
The information on the ESS data sheets is rather vague to say the least. It would probably take someone from ESS to explain how it works, assuming that's something they want to share with the outside world. All I can say for sure is that when you look at the block diagram, there is a conversion block which means that the DSD cannot possibly be being passed unmolested into the DAC and there is also filtering on the output. The whole point of DSD is a very simple signal path, so there are at least two extra stages going on in these DACs which have to be damaging to what comes out of the other end.
I have one of the Pioneer hi-res players which handles DSD and that too has an ESS chip inside it. Through that DSD sounds pretty ordinary to me, and I've always put it down to the fact that the chip isn't dealing with the DSD directly (it even says that the output is 192KHz PCM and not DSD).
Quite an easy way of getting a taste of what DSD/SACD sounds like is to get hold of an old Playstation 3. The original ones had DSD DACs in them. Just pop in an SACD and take the analogue out into your hi-fi and prepare to be surprised. It's a different sound altogether from anything involving PCM.
Hi Rich
Just wondered if these were direct DSD recordings you are trying to play? Most SACD/DSD recordings have already been converted to PCM for processing in the studio as this cannot be done in DSD.
terrys99
17-02-2017, 12:42
I agree with what your saying
Running tests in foobar, I played back a sacd , using native.
Foobar tells me. Playing dsd64 5545kbps. 2822400.
My arcam driver states current sample rate 2822400
Now by switching between pcm and dsd , there's a slight difference, pcm is louder more sparkle, dsd playback is more laid back, not in you face, so to speak.
But like you said we don't know what the sabre dac is doing.
I have looked at the sabre diagram and yes there's filters in the path.
I have emailed ess asking what's being processed , if not to pcm then what.
It will interesting to find out.
The reason I started the thread was to see if sacd really sounded like, has I have over 500 sacd, given to me by a friend.
terrys99
17-02-2017, 13:26
Statement on ess sabre dacs.
Most of inner details are not in the data sheet....Sabre DAC works in purely DSD mode, the signal path in this mode is 1 bit input >32 bit fader> DSD filter performed in DSD domain > 6 bit DSD (DS PWM) DAC > analog
The fact that the DAC is 6 bit DOES NOT mean it's not DSD. Basic DSD is 1 bit but it can be any number of bits, in the case 6 if it helps the performance.
Number 1 is a subset of 6 - a 6 bit DSD offers better D/A performance than 1 bit , that's why it's there. It's still DSD though. Sabre in DSD mode DOES NOT use interpolation filters or any other PCM processing ...In fact Sabre DAC sounds better in DSD mode because signal path is simpler.
Hi Rich
Just wondered if these were direct DSD recordings you are trying to play? Most SACD/DSD recordings have already been converted to PCM for processing in the studio as this cannot be done in DSD.
Very true. Most of the stuff I was listening to were old analogue recordings that had been transferred directly to DSD. Some of the old Peter Gabriel and Genesis stuff was very good. The more modern stuff, not so impressive. I have a copy of Beck's Sea Change on DSD and the MoFi CD walks all over it. We're talking about a good mastering vs. a not so good one here though which probably proves the point that the mastering is more important than the medium it comes on.
Statement on ess sabre dacs.
Most of inner details are not in the data sheet....Sabre DAC works in purely DSD mode, the signal path in this mode is 1 bit input >32 bit fader> DSD filter performed in DSD domain > 6 bit DSD (DS PWM) DAC > analog
The fact that the DAC is 6 bit DOES NOT mean it's not DSD. Basic DSD is 1 bit but it can be any number of bits, in the case 6 if it helps the performance.
Number 1 is a subset of 6 - a 6 bit DSD offers better D/A performance than 1 bit , that's why it's there. It's still DSD though. Sabre in DSD mode DOES NOT use interpolation filters or any other PCM processing ...In fact Sabre DAC sounds better in DSD mode because signal path is simpler.
That's fascinating, thanks for that. It would be great to see some more in depth technical detail on this, but I suspect this is about as far as we'll get. I guess there are many different methods of implementing these DACs which will make the end result different every time. My Pioneer hires player handles DSD as I mentioned - That uses the ESS 9018 chip which from a block diagram point of view looks very similar. On the other hand my pre-amp - The Nad M12 uses the same DAC chip and yet will not play DSD at all which is somewhat frustrating.
500 SACDs is a very impressive collection though. I'd say you owe it to yourself to hear them on a seriously good piece of DSD playback hardware - I'm no expert on what are the best players/DACs though.
terrys99
17-02-2017, 13:59
I do think this is about has far has we will get.
It's just nice to know that we aren't being ripped off with snake oil.
Manufacturers should give more info on so called. Dsd compatible dacs,
My big denon plays sacds quite well. Not that i have many. Pity its silver lol.
terrys99
20-02-2017, 16:01
I found all the info on ess sabre dac.
Very in depth.
Some might find it interesting. Link below,
http://www.esstech.com/files/4314/4095/4318/sabrewp.pdf
terrys99
28-04-2017, 08:33
2) Native DSD DAC processing
Back in 2011 I was asked by Jesus R of Simple Design/Sonore to help him start a DSD database of DAC manufacturers (the database link is here in our FAQ pages). Back then it was easy. We started with Mytek and a few others. Today there are hundreds of DACs that claim to be DSD-capable. We will put them in the DSD database if they accept DSF or DFF files directly (i.e not converted to PCM upfront, before the DAC). What happens internally can be any number of steps and conversions. Then comes the analog stage(s) and power supplies, and finally the analog outputs. One could say that the ultimate end goal is musicality, and that would be true. But it has become more important to try and understand what happens internally, because it is not always the case that one can listen to dozens of DACs and make good listening conclusions. Also, online forums and discussion communities tend to throw around terms and comments that need to have some consumer perspective. So, for those reasons I’d like to define two terms in the DAC world: Native DSD processing and it’s smaller subset, Native Direct DSD processing (aka Direct). In both cases the DSD signal is not converted to PCM and is therefore native. In the case of Direct the signal is not even processed digitally beyond being handled as a one bit signal. In my world both of these technologies have a good chance of producing beautiful DSD playback, given good power supplies and analog stages.
Examples of non-direct Native processing is when a DAC uses a SABRE 90XX chipset. The DSD signal is digitally processed, usually to 6 or 8 bits but remains DSD and is treated with DSD filters (to remove noise shaping artifacts) and then sent to the analog side. One could argue that FPGA processing like PS Audio’s Directstream, where one bit DSD is converted to 30 bit, 30Mhz, then processed “down” to DSD128, is another example of non-direct Native DSD processing. Meitner’s upsampling to DSD128 falls in this category for me, too.
''..............the database link is here in our FAQ pages....................
I've searched for ''DSD DAC'' in the FAQ section and got no results.
Apologies, must be being a bit slow, can you give us a link to your list please?
Cheers,
Jim.
DoP and DSD are the very same thing from my understanding. DoP, DSD Over PCM, is actually 1bit audio packaged within a PCM-like container, for compatibility reasons. In short, DoP is DSD in a different package, a bit like taking your SACD of Brothers In Arms and putting it in the jewel case of the CD only issue! ;)
No "conversion" takes place, only adaptation of the transport vehicle.
In other words, there should be none, or at most neglible differences in audio quality. But, as you have reasoned around, different DACs perform differently when fed either PCM or DSD so i doubt we will ever reach concensus which sounds "best"!
I am a bit surprised that the OP finds two different analog convertors sounding differently as... er... Different! They should, because as most of us have discovered, bits are not just bits and do have significant differences!
quote from dCS page:
FAQ: What is DoP (DSD over PCM)?
The original idea for DoP was invented by dCS in 2011. It involves taking groups of 16 adjacent 1-bit samples from a DSD stream and packing them into the lower 16 bits of a 24/176.4 data stream. Data from the other channel of the stereo pair is packed the same way. A specific marker code in the top 8 bits identifies the data stream as DoP, rather than PCM. The resulting DoP stream can be transmitted through existing 24/192-capable USB, AES, Dual AES or SPDIF interfaces to a DoP-compatible DAC, which reassembles the original stereo DSD data stream COMPLETELY UNCHANGED.
terrys99
29-04-2017, 10:44
I've searched for ''DSD DAC'' in the FAQ section and got no results.
Apologies, must be being a bit slow, can you give us a link to your list please?
Cheers,
Jim.
Here's the link
http://blog.nativedsd.com/the-nativity-of-native/
Spectral Morn
29-04-2017, 19:37
Yes. Asio.
Everything's working fine,
It's sending native.
I also used jriver,
It's definitely streaming native.
Iam beginning to think that sacd is naturally bland.
I suspect the Cambridge cxn is altering the sq.
Hrmmm sort of adding bells and whistles to the tracks.
Most definitely not. I don't play DSD files but my experience with SACD is absolutely to the contrary of what you are hearing.
Think it depends on the dac on the player. Ive heard some cronic ones tbf.
Spectral Morn
29-04-2017, 19:46
Think it depends on the dac on the player. Ive heard some cronic ones tbf.
As does everything Grant, but SACD, and DSD files should not be described as bland. Something defo not right.
terrys99
01-05-2017, 16:12
I acquired another irdac from a friend who's selling.
I thought I would do more tests.
Now has I earlier explained.
Playing dsd through cxn to the cxa 80, The sound seemed more open, richer detail.
Mid range is prominent.
Now when playing dsd from laptop using usb, not sure if bland was the right word, I would say much calmer, not as bright. Midrange was not as prominent .
pcm is identical with cxn cxa when playing though USB,it seems to be just dsd that's different.
Iam sure it's do do with the cxn Upsampling , giving false representation.
Now there are some sacds that are just the opposite. They sound amazing.
Blues in orbit, the carpenters, to name a few.
I given around 700 sacd isos to date .
Iam assuming that some sacds are badly recorded,
At least 70% are reissue. Not sure if that would be good or bad.
You have to remember guys, iam pretty new to hifi.
terrys99
06-05-2017, 09:14
After extensive playing. I have now reached a conclusion.
The irdac 2 sounds bad, in USB mode , playing dsd
Playing on the cxn, gives superb sound stage, you can hear every breath, every note is there.
Playing dsd on the arcam through USB , is really night and day.
Midrange is recessed, numbed down, hardly audible.
People have told me the difference should be small. But to me its huge.
Would anyone know if the cxn is playing dsd using dop?
Cambridge say that the cxn down samples to 192, while others say the cxn uses Dop.
A lot of sites selling Cambridge cxn are saying how good it sounds because it plays dsd dop.
It would be great to know for sure, Cambridge can't seem to make up their minds.
TimCurtis
07-05-2017, 15:04
Hi Terry,
A quick check of the data sheet for WM8740 DAC chip thats used in CXN shows that its a PCM-only DAC. If the chip had DSD decode support it would be clearly stated in the data sheet. This means that CXN device would not support DoP protocol.
https://www.cirrus.com/products/wm8740/
The video below from Cambridge mentions that all input is resampled to 24/384k using an asynchronus sample rate converter (ASRC).
https://youtu.be/OG97I2NagvY
https://www.cambridgeaudio.com/technology/atf
Enjoy this great thread on ASRC from the Werewolf
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/28814-asynchronous-sample-rate-conversion.html
-Tim
terrys99
07-05-2017, 15:55
Thank you Tim.
Your the only person that has helped me. Thank you again.
Can I ask, in your opinion do you think the sound difference is due to the irdac playing the dsd natively? And that's what it truly sounds like?
TimCurtis
07-05-2017, 17:12
Hi Terry,
Its hard to say because our audio preferences are partly due to what we like, believe and can actually hear, and partly due to good science and engineering. DSD and PCM are both good audio formats and they both have their own particular set of issues and constraints. IMO if either format is processed with well engineered gear, good sound will result.
Although there is a lot of attention given to the DAC chip used in an audio device, the board design, power supply and analog output circuit probably contribute more to the overall sound signature. There are a lot of junk designs using great chips.
-Tim
terrys99
07-05-2017, 19:49
Tim
Would you know why pcm and dsd fed from computer via USB irdac 2 has lower volume?
Even pcm through USB seems degraded, and its at least 3 or more db lower?
TimCurtis
07-05-2017, 21:01
Hi Terry,
What type of computer are u using and what player software?
There can be multiple volume controls in computer configs for example the Player volume control and the System volume control.
-Tim
terrys99
07-05-2017, 21:52
Iam using either of 2 computers
Both i7 5960s
64 g mem both fresh installs.
Vid cards. Titan black and FirePro w8100.
All chipsets drivers ect up to date.
Software have jriver and foobar.
Jriver configured to irdac 2 native dsd.
Strange thing is when I play a genuine sacd hmm examplevblues in orbit,
Which I know is a good recording. It sounds really good excellent.
I have 830 sacd rips, around 30% are good masters. Now they play perfectly on irdac,
Nearly the same as if I play them on cxn.
Cxn on most seem to be more digital, sparkly. If that the right word.
The irdac seems more analog.
Does that make sense?
terrys99
07-05-2017, 21:54
You will have to excuse my way of trying to explain.
Iam new to hifi.
terrys99
07-05-2017, 22:16
Just found something interesting.
Now when I play back through the irdac
Setting in jriver is.
Dsd bitstreaming.
Dsd native 64.
This is what I have been using.
Now I have just gone into settings
This time I have turned off bitstream dsd
Then turned off dsd native chip.
Then told it to sample at 352.8
It changes dramatically , it's exactly the same quality as the cxn.
Audio path info tells me
Input 352.8khz 64bit 2ch from source format sacd
Output 352.8. 32bit using asio.
So now the irdac is playing the same pcm format actually it's 352 the cxn is 192 tops
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.