Distractions I can't hear?

[The Vinyl Adventure]

I'm not sure if there is a word for what I'm trying to explain but I'm sure other people must know what I'm talking about!
Basically sometimes when listening to hifi I sort of feel a little uncomfortable, it happens everytine I switch my system on for about 10 mins, I guess it's until it's warmed up. I also got it once when I was demoed an isolation platform - it wasn't like there was more detail as such, just that there was somthing less distracting about the sound.
Now, these are 2 very different situations, but the distracting, uncomfortable feeling is the same...
What that all about then? Any ideas anyone?

[DSJR]

Your system's not right and after 10 minutes or so you get used to it and dismiss the weaker points... Those speakers of yours aren't universal because the gains you get low in the bass are paid for by cancellations and smudging further up (a Transmission Line tradeoff - you never get owt for nowt). You may have to try something different, no matter how that galls you...

I get distracted at home because herself and sonny-jim don't like the music I listen to and I feel guilty in truning it up 'cos I get protests.

Otherwise, I switch it on and music comes out...

I'm a bit worried though, 'cos i've ordered these Mark Grant cables - someone's gone to the trouble of making them for me using decent components. What I'f I can't hear any difference because my stereo isn't good enough????? Am I less critical these days, or is it simply that I've got a sort-of balanced setup?

[John]

Valves do take a bit of time to sound good I usually turn on my system then play music it about 20mins or so after turning it on
I think we sometimes sensative to stuff that hard to measure This is is the bit that allows you to relax into music without feeling edgy
For me this feeling at ease is nothing to do with good resolution It often you find people saying to much detail I think its more about the quality of it

[The Vinyl Adventure]

I'm not sure that's the case dave, even minor issues in my system bug me! And I don't dismis them, if anything they get more annoying!

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Valves do take a bit of time to sound good I usually turn on my system then play music it about 20mins or so after turning it on
I think we sometimes sensative to stuff that hard to measure This is is the bit that allows you to relax into music without feeling edgy
For me this feeling at ease is nothing to do with good resolution It often you find people saying to much detail I think its more about the quality of it

I agree, I think what I am talking about is what makes a system sound fatiguing! Before I had the copper dac, the new amps were showing up limitations of the majik and I did freqeuntly find my self less comfy with the music

[The Grand Wazoo]

Yeah Hamish - those valves need a little while 20 mins - half an hour to get properly juiced up. Switch it on, go & make a cuppa, give Hannah a hug, stroke the cat, give Hannah another hug then go listen!

[Jonboy]

Valves need a bit of time to warm up sometimes hours to come on song, but i seem to get good days and bad days for my systems, i think it sounds really shit at times, but my wife tells me it's my ears and not the kit, it seems to sound quite rough at the moment but i try to tell myself that it is down to the amount of peolple at home all using the same electric source because they are all on holiday. Dirty mains power has a lot to answer for

[John]

Valves need a bit of time to warm up sometimes hours to come on song, but i seem to get good days and bad days for my systems, i think it sounds really shit at times, but my wife tells me it's my ears and not the kit, it seems to sound quite rough at the moment but i try to tell myself that it is down to the amount of peolple at home all using the same electric source because they are all on holiday. Dirty mains power has a lot to answer for
Agree
A Seprate spur will help and dedicated earth Maybe try Anthony mains filter it will help on the souce side but filters can robe a bit of power on amplification side

[Steve Toy]

First, turn off your Crimble tree lights.

Second, get a dedicated spur and consumer unit.

Third, get one of Anthony's filters for all your kit. They are fairly unique in not sitting on the dynamics of your system.

[anthonyTD]

Valves need a bit of time to warm up sometimes hours to come on song, but i seem to get good days and bad days for my systems, i think it sounds really shit at times, but my wife tells me it's my ears and not the kit, it seems to sound quite rough at the moment but i try to tell myself that it is down to the amount of peolple at home all using the same electric source because they are all on holiday. Dirty mains power has a lot to answer for
totaly agree jon,
the mains supply quality varies wildly throughout the day in most places due to demand! of course adding to the problems we naturaly get from industry we now use loads more electrical products in our home, most of which now have switch mode power supplies, ie, televisions, radios, light bulbs etc, etc, all contributing to mains polution, its a real problem, even the musicians i deal with are complaining that their sound varies from venue, to venue due to mains polution. well designed mains filters do help in keeping a balance in sonics throughout the day, but they are a compromise, but one i find i cant live without in my system these days.
regards,anthony,TD...

[Themis]

Perhaps the reason of your distraction is not in the gear ? Just a thought. ;)

(are we talking about the setup in your new home?)

[The Vinyl Adventure]

No not really dimitri, I had already worked out why my system sounds a bit funny when I first turn it on or indeed at certain times of day. I do apreciate the advice everyone but what I am trying to find out really is what is this thing that I am taking about called (I perhaps should have been a bit clearer in my first post)
as I said I have experienced it in 2 very different circumstances (and more just can't think of them off the top of my head)
the first is as we have been talking about, to do with mains
the second was to do with vibration
it's not that the detail isn't there, and it's not like I can actually hear a specific difference that I can pin point as such there is just a distraction.
will the isolation platform I refered to in my first post it wasn't as though somthing had been added to the sound (eg more detail) but something negative in the sound ha been taken away
john said "you find people saying to much detail I think its more about the quality of it"
this more what I'm talking about!
If I find I do something to my system that makes this happen... Should I be just saying the "quality of detail" is better or "the system sounds less fatiguing" (as I said in my reply to john) or is the a better discription?
Maybe the isolation platform removed some issue that is similar to and issue caused by bad mains? Maybe it's a very different cause but has a similar effect on the sound...
I'm more interested in peoples expeience of what I'm talking about, the words that are apropriate to describe it, and the word that are apropriate to describe the solution!
This is def a subject I would find easier talking about in real life...

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Perhaps the reason of your distraction is not in the gear ? Just a thought. ;)

(are we talking about the setup in your new home?)

And yeah, it did cross my mind that some of my worrying could be down to putting a hifi into a new house and it not sounding as good crossed with the fact we are living out of 2 houses and the fact that hannah has gone loopy and been awake at 3am painting then sleeping in the day and the fact I have no phone line and I haven't sorted any of the utility and about a million other things.... But I try and filter all that stuff out for discusion on here :)
And the fact I'm doing a bloody wedding today and I'm really not in the mood... Il be fine when I get there of course but right now I just wanna close my eyes lie on the sofa and listen to music at volumes I haven't worked out if are inapropriate with new neighbours!

[Joe]

Am I less critical these days, or is it simply that I've got a sort-of balanced setup?

Well, I can't speak for you of course, but in my own case I've come to the conclusion that life's too short to be spending time and money chasing elusive 'faults' with my hifi. I either just leave listening for another day, or listen to the 'upstairs' system, which has an entirely different type of sound.

[John]

Hamish I think what you struggling with is something most of us who have a good system has struggled with, as your system opens up it eaiser to hear the faults
I think basically several areas to think about
Equipment gels well no weak points
Clean mains
Isolation
System Layout
Room acoustics
Its a frustrating journey and sometimes as you upgrade it makes you more aware of what is wrong I used to really hate that one day I be in musical heaven and the next I be in musical hell It took awhile to figure it out and lot of experimentation. Its most likely mains noise you are hearing getting this right makes a huge difference

[Themis]

And yeah, it did cross my mind that some of my worrying could be down to putting a hifi into a new house and it not sounding as good crossed with the fact we are living out of 2 houses and the fact that hannah has gone loopy and been awake at 3am painting then sleeping in the day and the fact I have no phone line and I haven't sorted any of the utility and about a million other things.... But I try and filter all that stuff out for discusion on here :)
And the fact I'm doing a bloody wedding today and I'm really not in the mood... Il be fine when I get there of course but right now I just wanna close my eyes lie on the sofa and listen to music at volumes I haven't worked out if are inapropriate with new neighbours!
Well, the mood certainly modifies your perception of things : don't underestimate it ! ;)

What I meant about the house, is : was/is this distraction at your old house or the new ? Have you moved to your new house I mean ? :scratch:

[Steve Toy]

Hamish, the issue may well be timing related. Your amps are phase coherent as is the DAC.

It could be your mains and support.

Fixes:

Quadraspire Reference stand

Mark Grant mains leads

AOS/TD filter

Dedicated spur/consumer unit.

Job done.

[John]

Try and sort out the mains first its the most likely cause

[Themis]

If it were the mains, why would the problem get "fixed" after 10 minutes ? :scratch:

You seem to think the first impression is right, then in 10 minutes hamish doesn't notice it anymore : and what if the first impression is wrong ? ;)

[Spectral Morn]

I am almost 100% certain (brave I know, having not been in the room) that it will sound vastly better firing across rather than down (as you have it now) the room. Sorry I won't let this one drop....imho/e having set up many systems over the years very few sound right firing down a room.

When you have the time try it....if you don't like it you can put it back.

I think your paving stones are rocking unless you have large rubber dome feet under them. Frankly granite slabs with cones under them, sitting into large cross head screws (so you can level them) is vital. At the moment your set up is not properly set up Hamish...sorry but there you have it...imho/e of course.

The mains etc while important will not solve the set up issues...get these right and the rest will be the icing on the cake.

To be honest though I am at a bit of a loss to try and follow exactly what Hamish thinks is wrong. I know its hard to express audio things sometimes. I am sure though if Hamish concentrates on sitting the system and speakers correctly and working with the room (imho he is not doing this at the moment) then everything else can be added to greater effect later. Part of what he is hearing is system warm up and settling, something his less than ideal previous set up was masking a bit I think. But thats not the whole story.

If I lived near by Hamish I would love to set this up for you, but sadly I don't so I can't. However I can give you an exact step by step guide....if you are interested.


Regards D S D L

[DSJR]

Hamish, get your life situation in order before doing anything else, as you seem to be stressed out beyond measure right now. Once the big move is completed and you're decorated and happy, it's amazing how well everything else falls in to place. THEN, you can start the tweaking and fine-tuning hints above..

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Ok, I do apreciate everyone help and comments but you are all completely missing the point of the thread
I am quit happy tweaking and moving stuff around, I acomplished a great deal last night putting the speakers on the stone and moving them out of the bay...
Forget for now I have bought a new system and that I have moved house and re read my last post
I'm just trying to find out how to explain better the improments I am making.

A hypothetical example "I put my amp on an isolation platform and it seems to have got rid of that thing that slightly distracts me" it doesn't sound right does it?
The examples I used were just to hopfully provide something that someone could relate to and say "yes hamish what you are finding when the valve amps warm up or something is isolated is an improvment in ... ... ..."
is it just "quality of detail" or are there specific words to describe these things
now I have a hifi good enough to resolve these tiny adjustment I just want to be able to explain my self a bit better
let me expand on the isolation platform thing I experienced in a system about 4 years ago
I was at a demo of a naim system, when te guy doing the demo put this isolation platform under the cd player nothing was added to the sound, but there was a distracting aspect taken away! Should I describe this as a distracting factor taken away or is there a better way to describe it? And how does this situation relate to my system warming up that has a similar effect?
Basically I know what I am hearing and am fast gaining expereience in how to make these improvements ... I just don't know how to acuratly describe the improvement I am getting and the reasons I think I am getting them... That is what I want to know... As aposed to how to actually achive them!

[The Grand Wazoo]

Could it be the thing that some people call 'graininess'?

[Jonboy]

When you isolate your amp or your source do things "snap into focus" and get more defined, i found the same thing with my cd transport when i isolated it.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Wahay we getting there now, so very similar grainyness can be caused by both poor isolation and bad mains
I shall refer back to my first post... What's that all about then?

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Snap in to focus, that makes sence too!

[Themis]

Hamish, could you please make an experiment for me ?

Does the sound/focus changes when you move slightly your head forward/backward ?
If it's the case, you just have some resonance problem to solve.
If not, then perhaps it's the warming or something else.

[Steve Toy]

The issue was timing, or rather, time smear. When your amp was used with the Naim pre the issue there was both loss of pace AND timing. Timing litches can be more subtle than that and do your head in. Decent isolation is often a cure.

[Rare Bird]

Third, get one of Anthony's filters for all your kit. They are fairly unique in not sitting on the dynamics of your system.

How much are these filters & do you have a pickie?

[Steve Toy]

The pics of Scalford Hall last year show it parked next to the 12v linear PSU for the Bel Canto CD2 Transport. As for the price, it depends what you want. Best ask Anthony by pm.

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2185&highlight=Scalford+Hall

Post #4 by Filterlab, fourth pic down, right hand side.

[Marco]

Just to make it easy, here it is (shown on the right next to the PSU for Steve's Bel Canto CDP):

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/8646/dsc07398i.jpg (http://img3.imageshack.us/i/dsc07398i.jpg/)

Marco.

[Primalsea]

Hi Hamish,

I think I know what you're getting at if its the same thing I feel sometimes. I listen and just get a sense that something is either there too much or missing. Its the initially impressive dynamics that just become fatiguing or the graininess that seems to kill it all and make the sound miserable. I cant describe what it is only that over an extended period of days or weeks there is something not right, not what I'm looking for. Sometimes it's the obvious things like the speaker position other times it takes ages to work out its something else.

Is that it??

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Hi Hamish,

I think I know what you're getting at if its the same thing I feel sometimes. I listen and just get a sense that something is either there too much or missing. Its the initially impressive dynamics that just become fatiguing or the graininess that seems to kill it all and make the sound miserable. I cant describe what it is only that over an extended period of days or weeks there is something not right, not what I'm looking for. Sometimes it's the obvious things like the speaker position other times it takes ages to work out its something else.

Is that it??

yep! Thank Christ someone understands my jibber jabberings!
It's one of those things that you can't ness hear, or at least put your finger on, but when it is fixed you get quite the sence of relife! I have def found this most obvious with (as chris says) grainyness
I only really wanted to know how to better explain my self but the legth of this thread has blown it all out of propertion really :o

[The Grand Wazoo]

So have you cracked it now mate?

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Lordy Lordy, there wasn't a problem in the first place really I was just making convo :)
I was only reminded of it when I had an experience in the sound from my hifi that was quite pronounced (switched on the hifi at about 6 the other day) when I switched it on it sounded pants, I left the room for about 30 mins and when I got back it sounded sweet as a nut! The difference in sound was highly comparible to that of the introduction of the iso platform I have been talking about... Hence the thread! I was interested in how or why these 2 very different situations could create a similar (as you say) grainyness in the sound as well as how to explain my self better when it happens and I fix it! But I guess because of my current situation people got a bit confused and asumed I was having a problem, when in reality I was just trying to learn a bit more about negative influnces on hifi equipment ... I think it's prob best we just draw a line under all this and forget it happened, I have just confused everyone I think!

[The Grand Wazoo]

Lordy Lordy, there wasn't a problem in the first place really I was just making convo

No, what I mean is have you got the lexicography of it all cracked now? That was the crux of your nub wasn't it?

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Oh I see, this thread is cursed for sure!
Yeah I recon I have, I'm still interested in how "grain" could be caused by 2 very different things but I guess it is just interference!
It's becomeing more and more clear to me the extent at which this hobby and relevent equipment needs to be aproached in a holisic fashion to get the best out of equipment!
It's certainly got a lot more fun since I have equipent that is both sensitive to situation as well as being able to better resolve differences I make to the system! I'm certainly a long way from that naim system now - it always seemed to sound the same for the most part when I made minor changes, I for a time guessed it was my ears, when in fact it was just lack of res

[The Grand Wazoo]

Well, even so, I guess your old gear was able to do way more than most people would ever expect a hi-fi could ever deliver!
The trouble is - you heard what is possible & you decided you liked it. And more importantly that it was for you!

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Right on!! And for once with this pesky hobby I feel like I have gained a lot more than what I would have expected for the money!! I guess that's the great thing about having a majority naim foundation to my experience... Most major upgrades will seem cheap by comparison! I think I have surpassed the 20k naim system i heard now... And I have spent quite a small fraction of that much!!

[The Grand Wazoo]

... Most major upgrades will seem cheap by comparison! I think I have surpassed the 20k naim system i heard now... And I have spent quite a small fraction of that much!!


Wow, Now that's a statement!
I remember you & Dan talking about that sytem when I asked about the best hi-fi folks had heard.

Congratulations!
errrrr............When will Mike Parry be paying you a visit?

[The Vinyl Adventure]

It's not as good as the set up me and dan spoke of, yet, but that was the £100,000+ set up.. That was a different league all together!!

[John]

Yes I think you cracked it often people want easy answers but to really get the best out of a very good system requires a more rounded approach
Anyway just try to see it as thread drift and the desiree to help

[John]

Hamish as Neil said you get more if you position those speakers across the room with a couple of feet from corners and walls Just have fun expermenting

[Themis]

I didn't understand much abouth this thread. I guess I will later on... next century perhaps. :lol:

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Yes I think you cracked it often people want easy answers but to really get the best out of a very good system requires a more rounded approach
Anyway just try to see it as thread drift and the desiree to help

I tried an alternative lay out with the speakers against the long wall but unfortunately there isn't the space at the moment, we are talking about takeing the shelves out of the alcoves but until then if I put the speakers accros the long wall it eithe means that I can get in the room without climbing over a sofa or there is no space for the hifi rack
also in the position the speakers are now in they can be quite far out into the room and this seems to be an advantage! They sound more airy than they did in the last house.