View Full Version : Speaker cable differences
Some food for thought: https://www.lifewire.com/speaker-cable-differences-3134603
I'm still sceptical, especially as I don't believe one can hear a low-Q 'resonance' of 0.3dB in amplitude. And I don't think anyone would advocate using 24AWG size cables.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge
Ninanina
05-02-2017, 03:08
Some food for thought: https://www.lifewire.com/speaker-cable-differences-3134603
I'm still sceptical, especially as I don't believe one can hear a low-Q 'resonance' of 0.3dB in amplitude. And I don't think anyone would advocate using 24AWG size cables.
I can only say that the TQ Ultra Black is the very best I have ever heard of any speaker cable..
I did use TQ Black cable but when I got the UB's in the system it was like an amplifier/cd/transport upgrade .. it is that good
So the TQ UB's have my vote every time ;)
Expensive yes but very good indeed...
You'll find 10 other articles that make that one look wrong. Nobody can hear .3db. 24 AWG wire is too small for anything that is not encased.
Cabling is the most screwed up part of this hobby. Most of the problems are invented.
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And yet there are DAC manufacturers who claim we can hear timing errors of 1 microsecond...
Speaker cables can make a difference, not always, depends on the amp and speakers they are betwixt. In my current lash up I have recently swapped between Chord Odyssey 2 and NVA speaker cables. The difference would be obvious to any random person I pulled in off the street.
I've also swapped speaker cables in other systems and heard no difference, despite huge differences in the price of the cables. I think it would be perfectly possible to live an entire audio life and not come across differences in speaker cables, it is the exception rather than the rule.
As for TQ Black being something special, for every person who says it is the best thing ever there is someone who says it didn't work in their set up. Cables are always horses for courses.
You'll find 10 other articles that make that one look wrong. Nobody can hear .3db. 24 AWG wire is too small for anything that is not encased.
Cabling is the most screwed up part of this hobby. Most of the problems are invented.
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I'm now of the opinion that when it comes to cable, good quality construction and materials is worth paying for, marketing bullshit and pseudoscience isn't.
Quite happy with my current cost effective choices.
My homemade ones made with a cable i doubled up and twisted is as good as ive heard. It wasnt silly cheap to make and took a while to get it the way i wanted but at about £60 and maybe 5 /6 hrs is a steal.
For me there are two audible factors which determine differences between cables, which I believe is true of interconnect and speaker cables:
1. Tonal balance. Cables can alter the overall tonal balance of a system, possibly due to a combination of their electrical characteristics, insulation material etc. Happen upon the right cable to "fix" tonal balance issue, usually calming down an overtly bright top end, can be an absolute God-send, changing a hifi into a music system :eyebrows:
2. Signal preservation. I suspect this down to metallurgy and connection to and quality of connectors. The ability to convey ambience, detail, spacial cues, tonal colour, instrument resonance and texture and even more obvious things such as dynamics and transient response.
For me this is where higher end cables will or at least *should* pull away from the competition.
Tonearm wire is the only cabling I don't get from the hardware store. It's ultra low amperage and makes a huge difference in my opinion. Interconnects and speaker wire really don't affect the sound, unless you're using some that are pretty awful.
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For me there are two audible factors which determine differences between cables, which I believe is true of interconnect and speaker cables:
1. Tonal balance. Cables can alter the overall tonal balance of a system, possibly due to a combination of their electrical characteristics, insulation material etc. Happen upon the right cable to "fix" tonal balance issue, usually calming down an overtly bright top end, can be an absolute God-send, changing a hifi into a music system :eyebrows:
2. Signal preservation. I suspect this down to metallurgy and connection to and quality of connectors. The ability to convey ambience, detail, spacial cues, tonal colour, instrument resonance and texture and even more obvious things such as dynamics and transient response.
For me this is where higher end cables will or at least *should* pull away from the competition.
I can get with the signal preservation bit but not with the tonal balance idea. Unless you're using the wrong design of cable for your amplifier and putting it under stress the very idea or tonal control with cables makes me shudder. I'd suggest that if you're looking for a cable to resolve a tonal balance issue you're looking in the wrong place and your problems are more fundamental and unlikely to be solved with bits of wire.
I can get with the signal preservation bit but not with the tonal balance idea. Unless you're using the wrong design of cable for your amplifier and putting it under stress the very idea or tonal control with cables makes me shudder. I'd suggest that if you're looking for a cable to resolve a tonal balance issue you're looking in the wrong place and your problems are more fundamental and unlikely to be solved with bits of wire.
If the cables are changing the tone they're bad.
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I can get with the signal preservation bit but not with the tonal balance idea. Unless you're using the wrong design of cable for your amplifier and putting it under stress the very idea or tonal control with cables makes me shudder. I'd suggest that if you're looking for a cable to resolve a tonal balance issue you're looking in the wrong place and your problems are more fundamental and unlikely to be solved with bits of wire.
Hi Rich,
Firstly, we don't all necessarily like the same presentation (tonal balance) probably based not just our preferences but also the types of music we primarily listen to.
Secondly, you're assuming all sources and amplifiers are strictly neutral.
Thirdly, even if all speakers were neutral, their interaction with the room will require some matching to get back to our preferred tonal balance.
I understand the concept that every component *should* be neutral. It's a lofty ideal but they're not due to design/budget limitations and being voiced to the designer's own preferences.
In the absence of tone controls I think most people balance their systems with sympathetic cables.
Interconnects and speaker wire really don't affect the sound, unless you're using some that are pretty awful.
I know cables are a major bone of contention but having read this either the system's electrical characteristics are such that a change of cable capacitance or resistance doesn't effect it or the system isn't capable of showing audible differences i.e. not high enough resolution or there genuinely are people who for whatever physical reasons don't hear these differences. It's really strange because everyone I know in hifi circles can hear quite large differences between cables but there are some that I only know through forums who are adamant that they can't and will use free patch cords etc.
I respect these peoples' opinions as valid and true so I'm thinking there must be a physical thing going on here? I don't know but, for me, I can't agree with this statement Nathan as I hear profound differences between cables for whatever reasons.
I can hear differences in most systems with many cables. High end and lower end it don't matter but if folk don't then that's fine too. Advice is experiment and see. Bake offs are a good way to do this without costing too much cash
I know cables are a major bone of contention but having read this either the system's electrical characteristics are such that a change of cable capacitance or resistance doesn't effect it or the system isn't capable of showing audible differences i.e. not high enough resolution or there genuinely are people who for whatever physical reasons don't hear these differences. It's really strange because everyone I know in hifi circles can hear quite large differences between cables but there are some that I only know through forums who are adamant that they can't and will use free patch cords etc.
I respect these peoples' opinions as valid and true so I'm thinking there must be a physical thing going on here? I don't know but, for me, I can't agree with this statement Nathan as I hear profound differences between cables for whatever reasons.
I don't use the cheap ones they throw in the box either. I usually make my own with decent ends. I don't spend too much because I really can't hear the difference. I can hear a difference in the cheap freebies, and a $20 pair.
The components were all designed with no regard as to which interconnects should connect them. I have had certain cables that just didn't sound right on a given component, and fine on another. That is usually caused by the jacks on the component rather than the cable.
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If the cables are changing the tone they're bad.
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Changing the tone from what, though? You can't listen without any speaker cables at all so you need to have cables that are a base reference for what is correct. And how is it possible to be certain as to what 'tone' is correct?
I can hear a difference in the cheap freebies, and a $20 pair.
Why then do you doubt that others can hear a difference between £20 and £200 cables or indeed between £200 and £2000 cables?
Changing the tone from what, though? You can't listen without any speaker cables at all so you need to have cables that are a base reference for what is correct. And how is it possible to be certain as to what 'tone' is correct?
I would consider the base reference as the output of the component. The cables should transfer that.
I think the only correct way to set up a system is the way you enjoy it the most. I don't care if anyone else drops 10k on speaker wire. I wouldn't. If it was the best sound I had ever experienced, I still think I would resent it.
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Why then do you doubt that others can hear a difference between £20 and £200 cables or indeed between £200 and £2000 cables?
I don't doubt they can. If I paid that much for a cable I'd hear something. I know they make a difference on low power tube amps. The interconnects are the last thing I would throw money at. They have the steepest cost to improvement ratio on any system.
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I would consider the base reference as the output of the component. The cables should transfer that.
But you can't hear the output of the component unless you use speaker cables, which could be changing the output if the component, and I don't see anyway around that conundrum. I suppose you could base it on how real natural sounds or acoustic instruments sound, but that is subjective and would still only hold true for your system. The same cables may do different things to the tone when the amp and/or speakers are changed.
But you can't hear the output of the component unless you use speaker cables, which could be changing the output if the component, and I don't see anyway around that conundrum. I suppose you could base it on how real natural sounds or acoustic instruments sound, but that is subjective and would still only hold true for your system. The same cables may do different things to the tone when the amp and/or speakers are changed.
I understand that, but you can hook it up to a scope and check for distortion. You have to use cables. Picking ones that I knew were going to change the tone sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.
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I avoid deliberately weird cables as well, they make no logical sense to me. Problem is I sometimes hear a difference between conventionally measuring cables too.
I have that problem with the RCA jacks on vintage stuff quite a bit. Theyre too close together and they pick up noise from each other with new cables. They actually sound better with the old cables sometimes.
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Hi Rich,
Firstly, we don't all necessarily like the same presentation (tonal balance) probably based not just our preferences but also the types of music we primarily listen to.
Secondly, you're assuming all sources and amplifiers are strictly neutral.
Thirdly, even if all speakers were neutral, their interaction with the room will require some matching to get back to our preferred tonal balance.
I understand the concept that every component *should* be neutral. It's a lofty ideal but they're not due to design/budget limitations and being voiced to the designer's own preferences.
In the absence of tone controls I think most people balance their systems with sympathetic cables.
Sorry I think you have me misunderstood. What I was getting at was that if your system doesn't sound balanced to your tastes then you'd be better off looking at your components rather than your cables. I know that all components are not neutral, indeed that's why we do hifi as a hobby instead of just buying pro gear. Kit which makes music is one thing, kit which connects you with it is another.
Fair enough but if you can get to where you need to by swapping out a cable for another you have sitting on a shelf why wouldn't you rather than change gear.
walpurgis
05-02-2017, 18:23
My system sounds great, but I can make it sound bad just by swapping some nasty speaker cables in. So obviously cable matching to a system is worth looking into.
My system sounds great, but I can make it sound bad just by swapping some nasty speaker cables in. So obviously cable matching to a system is worth looking into.
If you have enough headroom you can hook speakers up with jumper cables. It wouldn't be the best idea on a pre-amp, even worse on a phono pre.
Fair enough but if you can get to where you need to by swapping out a cable for another you have sitting on a shelf why wouldn't you rather than change gear.
Nothing wrong with that but if your system doesn't sound pleasing to start with then it's unlikely any kind of speaker cable is going to make much difference to that.
Floyddroid
05-02-2017, 22:44
Ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssss :popcorn:
Arkless Electronics
05-02-2017, 22:51
Ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssss :popcorn:
Room for one more in the cheap seats? :popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:
Haselsh1
06-02-2017, 05:14
I have been using NVA LS5 loudspeaker cables for quite some years but then fairly recently decided to use Van Den Hul Teatrack biwired cables. The difference in my system is massive with the Van Den Hul cables being hugely superior. I have also tried Mark Grant VDC cables, the 4mm ones and they too are hugely superior to the LS5 cables. Due to the things I have heard, I am in no doubt that loudspeaker cables have a big influence on sound as do interconnects.
I'm chuffed for those that can't near a difference with either speaker cable or interconnects, job done I'd say. :thumbsup:
I'm chuffed for those that can't near a difference with either speaker cable or interconnects, job done I'd say. :thumbsup:
Oh, you can hear differences alright enough, I don't doubt that. It's just the idea of using them as tone controls which gives me the horrors. If your system sounds shrill and hard, then expecting a cable to make all the difference is unrealistic, if it sounds dull and lifeless chances are your problems lie in your component matching rather than your cable choices. If you choose your components right and they sound good to start with then you don't need to go daft for cables.
As I said before, good construction and materials is worth money to me. Nothing else.
Have to say that ive had some mismatches with cables myself. Now whether it was me or the equipment i guess is open to question by some, but just changing a couple of wires made no sense to me initially, but works.. those poor wires have been great elsewhere and this is or was repeatable... so i decided to become a beleiver
Oh, you can hear differences alright enough, I don't doubt that. It's just the idea of using them as tone controls which gives me the horrors. If your system sounds shrill and hard, then expecting a cable to make all the difference is unrealistic, if it sounds dull and lifeless chances are your problems lie in your component matching rather than your cable choices. If you choose your components right and they sound good to start with then you don't need to go daft for cables.
As I said before, good construction and materials is worth money to me. Nothing else.
Totally.
Its a bit arse-backwards to fix a problem with cables imo.
They can make a good system even better, icing on the cake.
I'm not saying they don't make a difference at all. I just don't think they're the best place to throw the money at if you don't like the sound of your system. Certainly not for tone control. If you buy a $1000 pair of interconnects and they don't sound to your liking you're either stuck with them, or you'll take a big hit trying to get rid of them.
I've only noticed a difference in speaker cables when the amp was either underpowered for the speakers, or it was just crap wire.
If I have to make a long run, I use a long interconnect, and short speaker wires.
I'm a DIYer too, so the thought of even spending a ton of money on cables bothers me.
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I don't know about the USA but here you can buy cables mail order and send them back within 14 days if they don't suit you. So you can try £1000 cables with no financial risk except the cost of return postage.
I agree about not using cables to mask a problem, but if the cable you are using is unsuitable for your amp/speaker combination then it will make a genuine improvement by switching to one that is.
I'm chuffed for those that can't near a difference with either speaker cable or interconnects, job done I'd say...
Yes, you'd think so... However, for some that's not enough. They want to convince you that you're wrong because it annoys them that what you're hearing contradicts their 'world view'.
They also resent the fact that you can hear something THEY can't (and subsequently feel that they're 'missing out'), so they'll go out of their way to dismiss/demean your valid contrary experiences, simply to make themselves feel better...! :rolleyes:
*Then*, still not satisfied with that, they'll continue questioning what you heard, and rubbishing it, ad infinitum, to the point you'll begin to start doubting yourself and that what you heard was real, in the hope that you'll give up the idea altogether and agree with them! :doh:
All done to make THEM feel better about themselves, and most importantly, deflect attention from their own insecurities, and avoid the discomfort of cognitive dissonance.... Far better instead, and more comfortable, to encourage absolutism and brainwash everyone else into believing what you do... ;)
Marco.
Haselsh1
07-02-2017, 12:54
I'd like to suggest that they who cannot hear a difference simply don't know how to listen. There clearly is a difference and an awful lot of us can hear it without doubt so maybe it is not that 'they' cannot hear a difference, maybe they don't know how to listen for the difference...?
I've swapped speaker cable many times and heard no difference but on the odd occasion I have heard clear differences, no need to be a trained listener. I can understand how some people think it makes no difference, they have just never come across the right circumstances.
I have, on more than one occasion, but then I change amps and speakers quite often.
if you start out thinking speaker cable will never make any difference you are very unlikely to ever swap speaker cable. So the problem is not one of personality disorder but of a simple lack of enough practical experience in this area.
One cable is better than another in all situations? No. There is no simple hierarchy of speaker cables and price is not a factor. Just because a cable worked well in one system does not mean it will work well in all systems. Some people just don't get this, hence all the idiotic cable debates over the years.
You can convince yourself of anything too if you try hard enough....that works both ways;)
I'd like to suggest that they who cannot hear a difference simply don't know how to listen. There clearly is a difference and an awful lot of us can hear it without doubt so maybe it is not that 'they' cannot hear a difference, maybe they don't know how to listen for the difference...?
You shouldn't have to listen for the difference. Even subtle changes should be apparent fairly quick. It should be a moment where you just think, Wow, or hear something you've never noticed.
I can hook up an RTA and show you your dog doesn't have good enough ears to hear it in most situations. There are absolutely mismatches in cables. I don't have my gear wired with coat hangers.
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Been said before its usually icing on an already well fettled cake, but you can get big improvements too.. the icing ones do require you to listen for the right things and some folk either cannot or do not
I can understand how some people think it makes no difference, they have just never come across the right circumstances.
Sure, but then to extrapolate that into: 'no differences can ever happen', is misguided and wrong, especially when it's done simply to pacify one's (often deeply-ingrained) belief system.
if you start out thinking speaker cable will never make any difference you are very unlikely to ever swap speaker cable. So the problem is not one of personality disorder but of a simple lack of enough practical experience in this area.
Indeed, and that's fine, but how often do those guilty of such attribute their findings [speaker cables make no difference], or indeed do any kind of cables, to a lack of practical experience? IME, folk don't like to think that they're 'lacking' in anything...!
Therefore, more often than not, it's a case of: 'Well I can't hear it, so you must be imagining it', or 'What you're reporting doesn't fit with my world view [and/or the contents of my physics text book], so I'm dismissing it out of hand, in order to appease my belief system (scientific or otherwise)'.
*That* is often what actually happens, and why cable debates are endlessly argumentative and often not very constructive! ;)
Marco.
and price is not a factor
I think you are only partly right here. There is no absolute correlation between SQ and price, which is exactly the same for all Hi-Fi components.
BUT
To make the best cables will require expertise, research and development, suitable materials and manufacture. All this costs money and will have to be paid for.
The old rule of cabling being 10% of your system costs still holds true.
I think you are only partly right here. There is no absolute correlation between SQ and price, which is exactly the same for all Hi-Fi components.
BUT
To make the best cables will require expertise, research and development, suitable materials and manufacture. All this costs money and will have to be paid for.
The old rule of cabling being 10% of your system costs still holds true.
Retail of my cables will be a lot more than that.. maybe 40% . I probably paid 25% of my current system on cabling.. there is a fair amount of it. Maybe more as i reckon my homemade speaker ones if bought made would be a lot more than i paid for the bits
Retail of my cables will be a lot more than that.. maybe 40% . I probably paid 25% of my current system on cabling.. there is a fair amount of it. Maybe more as i reckon my homemade speaker ones if bought made would be a lot more than i paid for the bits
Me too Grant. My philosophy is to spend on cables until you find improvements in SQ can be bettered by spending on other components.
Me too Grant. My philosophy is to spend on cables until you find improvements in SQ can be bettered by spending on other components.
And music. Listening to the same 4 tracks, and constantly chasing perfection through gear, and cables is just not my style.
I pick up a lot of good stuff cheap from people that do that. Trying different gear is a big part of the hobby for me. Aside from tonearm wire with a good set of interconnects attached to them, I've had just as much improvement building my own. That's the area where you are most likely to lose fidelity in my opinion. You can do a lot of experimenting with building your own too. I've had some that made a difference, some that didn't, and some that were a waste of effort. As often as I change gear having lots of options laying around works for my situation. I've gone from solid state integrated receivers, to a 400 watt class A system, to an all tube system in the last three weeks. I've got the quadraphonic bug now. It has been a while since I've hooked one up. I like having lots of options.
This whole argument is never ending in this hobby. I've always said tuning it to what you enjoy is the best way to do it. I know people that think their Crosley portable is as good as it gets.
Fortunately its not illegal ...yet! Im pretty settled now system wise. Have been for a while. Its as good as its gonna be i think without flinging money at it and i cant and wont do that. Itll out perform many, and is good for what is little money today. Maybe if a lottery jackpot comes my way :lol: Got far too much stuff around anyway and need to move a lot of it on tbh.
You shouldn't have to listen for the difference. Even subtle changes should be apparent fairly quick. It should be a moment where you just think, Wow, or hear something you've never noticed.
I can hook up an RTA and show you your dog doesn't have good enough ears to hear it in most situations. There are absolutely mismatches in cables. I don't have my gear wired with coat hangers.
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Exactly! If there is a difference or a change you will hear it, whether 'listening' for it or not. Even then, it is a good idea to revert back to the original cable, or whatever, after a few days to see if the change is real or imagined.
I have way too much stuff too. It's always coming and going though. I have a bunch of weird antique stuff that's not really desirable except to certain collectors. I like having it around but it's all for sale.
I'm happy with what I have, and I've gotten a lot of it through trade, or from people I repaired some other piece for. I've found a way to make the hobby pay for itself.
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Me too Grant. My philosophy is to spend on cables until you find improvements in SQ can be bettered by spending on other components.
I had our Brian over a couple of times to check my cables and alter/ replace as needed. He has great ears and lots of experience in knowing what cable is causing whatever. Great help he was. :D
I gave him coffee, but he complained bitterly about lack of buns ;)
Haselsh1
07-02-2017, 15:13
if you start out thinking speaker cable will never make any difference you are very unlikely to ever swap speaker cable
I suggest that if you start out thinking that speaker cable will make no difference then you have no real intention of even listening for a difference and therefore you don't hear it mainly because you don't know how to listen. If you are not even open to a difference how are you ever going to hear a difference...?
dimkasta
07-02-2017, 15:26
Nothing new here. There are articles with measurements dating back to 1980s.
The problem is that people still refuse dogmatically that cables can make a difference claiming that a fraction of a dB in distortion cannot be heard.
The truth is that distortion, even if it cannot be heard at those levels, it is just something convenient that we can measure and market easily.
But no one thinks about the fact that devices with identical distortion patterns can sound different, and can still sound bad even with very low distortion levels. The problem is that we do not have an accurate model that can describe and help us measure exactly and completely what sound fidelity is and how each part can influence it.
We only have scattered measurements that make some sense to give us a first feeling of what to expect.
To make it more exaggerated, N. Pass mentioned a joke a few months back.
There was a man looking for his keys. A policeman approached him asking him where did he lose them.
And he replied,
I lost them up the street, but the light is much better down here.
;) ;)
dimkasta
07-02-2017, 15:31
Oh and to my experience, you do not have to want to hear the difference.
If you know the music you like enough, then differences arise on themselves.
A small reverb on the room. A fast rimshot on the snare drum. A guitar placed on the far back. A deep bass note reverbing. Stuff like that are easy to notice.
It is not rare for people to discover new stuff on their music after changing a bad cable. I remember it very distinctively happening when I changed my Chord Odyssey for the Kimber 12TC.
And I currently hate both.
I suggest that if you start out thinking that speaker cable will make no difference then you have no real intention of even listening for a difference and therefore you don't hear it mainly because you don't know how to listen. If you are not even open to a difference how are you ever going to hear a difference...?
Indeed... That's simply 'Expectation Bias' in reverse! ;)
Marco.
There isn't even a real consensus on what High Fidelity actually means. Originally it was perfect reproduction. There are very few people that seem to even agree on what that is. To me it would be sitting down at the console in Abbey Road with the engineers headphones on. Even then some of us don't know how to hear, so that would be lost on us.
I've never had to hunt for the difference either. There seems to be an adjustment period to hearing any new addition, and then it springs out at you.
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walpurgis
07-02-2017, 16:07
Surely the questions around choice of cables are really just the same as those for all the other links in the system. Every component has its influence. We'd be wasting our time if that was not so.
Even then, it is a good idea to revert back to the original cable, or whatever, after a few days to see if the change is real or imagined.
Indeed. For me, that's always the most successful way of identifying *real* differences, with any aspect of hi-fi, as opposed to those that are simply imagined or the result of wishful thinking!
What I've learned is that you get tired rather quickly trying to identify differences with something that's only liable to produce a subtle sonic effect (positive or negative), such as cables, using quick-fire A/B/A-type comparisons, so few proper conclusions can be reached.
*Real* differences, unless of the obvious 'no brainer' variety, tend to 'sneak up' on you and are often only properly highlighted and appreciated after returning to one's previous known reference, using a familiar piece of music to perform the test and ascertain any changes.
This occurs because once your ears, over a significant period of time, have become 'attuned' to a certain sonic signature produced by your system, then notable deviations from that, when no other variables have changed, are more likely to be observed.
That's why I *never* form any conclusive opinions on cables, or anything else of that nature, without embarking on the above evaluation process for a period of at least a week - and once done, I'm happy to trust what my ears have revealed (or not, as the case may be), and bugger what 'currently accepted wisdom', or science, says to the contrary! :exactly:
Marco.
Yes, you'd think so... However, for some that's not enough. They want to convince you that you're wrong because it annoys them that what you're hearing contradicts their 'world view'.
They also resent the fact that you can hear something THEY can't (and subsequently feel that they're 'missing out'), so they'll go out of their way to dismiss/demean your valid contrary experiences, simply to make themselves feel better...! :rolleyes:
*Then*, still not satisfied with that, they'll continue questioning what you heard, and rubbishing it, ad infinitum, to the point you'll begin to start doubting yourself, and that what you heard was real, in the hope that you'll give up the idea altogether and agree with them! :doh:
All done to make THEM feel better about themselves, and most importantly, deflect attention from their own insecurities, and avoid the discomfort of cognitive dissonance.... Far better instead, and more comfortable, to encourage absolutism and brainwash everyone else into believing what you do... ;)
Marco.
Happy to say I've never got to that point, or ever be likely to! :D
Me neither, mate, but that doesn't stop the self-appointed 'consumer saviours' out there (cunningly disguised as 'cable sceptics') trying to 'save us' from ourselves, poor deluded souls that we are! :eyebrows:
Marco.
dimkasta
07-02-2017, 16:40
The real fun begins when you start to discuss resistors and capacitors :D
Nonono don't go there... :D Let's keep it civil :D
The real fun begins when you start to discuss resistors and capacitors :D
Nonono don't go there... :D Let's keep it civil :D
...or fuses.:eek:
There will be people saying speakers sound different soon.
Sherwood
07-02-2017, 16:57
Is it worth me paying to have my mains sockets relocated so that they align with the local ley lines?
Is it worth me paying to have my mains sockets relocated so that they align with the local ley lines?
Not unless you want to feel like a tit.
But fill your boots :)
Is it worth me paying to have my mains sockets relocated so that they align with the local ley lines?
Only on a Tuesday.
Marco.
The components were all designed with no regard as to which interconnects should connect them.
Not always.
When buying a system, comprising of components from the same manufacturer (e.g Linn, Naim, Rega, DNM, NVA, amongst others) the company concerned will often provide their own cables with the kit and/or recommend that they're used, in order to hear the equipment at its best, simply because the sonic signature and electrical characteristics of the cables in question will have been factored into the equation during the design stage.
Marco.
But you can't hear the output of the component unless you use speaker cables, which could be changing the output if the component, and I don't see anyway around that conundrum.
Not a foolproof solution, but in my experience, often 'the output of a component' is most faithfully heard by listening to it through a pair of quality headphones (and partnering dedicated headphone amp). That takes the effect of the room completely out of the equation, and is the nearest you'll get to hardwiring your ears to the source.
Replicate that effect through your speakers, by using cables that get you closest to experiencing that sound, and you'll not be too far away from achieving your desired base reference ;)
Marco.
Not a foolproof solution, but in my experience, often 'the output of a component' is most faithfully appreciated by listening to it through a pair of quality headphones (and partnering dedicated headphone amp). That takes the effect of the room completely out of the equation, and is the nearest you'll get to hardwiring your ears to the source.
Replicate that effect through your speakers, by using cables that get you closest to experiencing that sound, and you'll not be too far away from achieving your desired base reference ;)
Marco.
Not going to work with a power amp or speakers though, and there is still the headphone amp and the jack cable to consider. Not to mention the headphones themselves, unless we are saying all headphones sound the same? Dos remove the room but I'm not convinced that rooms are that big an issue, providing the speaker choice is sensible and the room is not too spartan.
Sherwood
07-02-2017, 18:00
Not unless you want to feel like a tit.
But fill your boots :)
Let's see how much I have left after I buy gold plated fuses for all my domestic appliances!
Let's see how much I have left after I buy gold plated fuses for all my domestic appliances!
I think you will find fitting audiophile fuses to your kettle and washing machine, will make you a better cup of tea and your clothes will be cleaner. ;)
I think you will find fitting audiophile fuses to your kettle and washing machine, will make you a better cup of tea and your clothes will be cleaner. ;)
depends if its an audiophile washing machine I guess.:doh:
Sherwood
07-02-2017, 18:24
I think you will find fitting audiophile fuses to your kettle and washing machine, will make you a better cup of tea and your clothes will be cleaner. ;)
Since fitting the fuses to my Dyson it's performance sucks and I have barely used it. Its been gathering dust ever since!
depends if its an audiophile washing machine I guess.
Well it's the one I clean my records with. :lol:
(Actually don't laugh - many years ago we had a member here who tried using a dishwasher to clean LPs! As you can imagine the results were not good.)
hifi_dave
07-02-2017, 18:26
Since fitting the fuses to my Dyson it's performance sucks and I have barely used it. Its been gathering dust ever since!
That deserves a 'boom, boom, tish'.
Dyson vacuum cleaners are rubbish. Every time I visit the recycling centre there's always a Dyson that's been thrown out.
I had the original Dyson, which I broke, not their fault, so bought a new one about 5 years ago not had any problems with it and it does very well.
Anyway back on topic no one has mentioned that speaker cable only goes as far as the speaker binding post, after that you are at the mercy of whatever the maker decided to put in. Hands up who has checked what cable is in the speaker and used that? Not me although now I think about it that's not a bad idea.
Not going to work with a power amp or speakers though...
Yes, but neither of those are source components, where the journey towards replicating the desired 'sound that left the studio', or as Nathan describes his base reference: "To me it would be sitting down at the console in Abbey Road with the engineers headphones on", first begins... ;)
...and there is still the headphone amp and the jack cable to consider. Not to mention the headphones themselves, unless we are saying all headphones sound the same?
Nope, not at all. However, I'd contend that the best ones are more accurate than most loudspeakers. As for headphone amps, well, again the best ones are as good at preserving the integrity of an audio signal as well as most main amplifiers. And a jack cable is no better or worse than speaker cable, *but* usually a damn sight shorter....
Dos remove the room but I'm not convinced that rooms are that big an issue, providing the speaker choice is sensible and the room is not too spartan.
Really?? Rooms are, by far and away, *the* most influential factor on the sonic performance of ANY hi-fi system, where the sound emits from an external pair of speakers - even taking into consideration the conditions you mention.
Marco.
The original big yellow ones are ok but have a design fault that causes them to block up too easily. Look after them and they are ok but overpriced.
I had the original Dyson, which I broke, not their fault, so bought a new one about 5 years ago not had any problems with it and it does very well.
Aye, but that's only because it's hardly used!! :lol:
No idea how you broke the first one... Must've died of ennui! :D
Sorry, couldn't resist.... ;)
Marco.
wee tee cee
07-02-2017, 19:10
Get a few mates together and try what different cables they have in your set up and room . The Scottish members have a fine no BS community-if its pish its pish!
Ye might make some pals and learn some new music....lets not get were knickers in a twist!!!
I think you will find fitting audiophile fuses to your kettle and washing machine, will make you a better cup of tea and your clothes will be cleaner. ;)
I use an audiophile USB cable on my printer. I could swear the printed words made more sense and had fewer typos. Pictures were more accurately reproduced etc.
walpurgis
07-02-2017, 19:15
Get a few mates together and try what different cables they have in your set up and room . The Scottish members have a fine no BS community-if its pish its pish!
Best to agree with 'em anyway. You'll be found in a ditch with yer throat cut otherwise! :eek:.....:lolsign:
Best to agree with 'em anyway. You'll be found in a ditch with yer throat cut otherwise! :eek:.....:lolsign:
Horses head in your bed etc....
Sherwood
07-02-2017, 19:25
Horses head in your bed etc....
More likely to be strung up with Oxygen Free Noose!
The original big yellow ones are ok but have a design fault that causes them to block up too easily. Look after them and they are ok but overpriced.
I find those by the dumpster all the time and clean them out. $50 on Craigslist.
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A real audiophile would ditch the fuse altogether and use a solid silver ingot silver soldered to 50,000 individually insulated litz wires ran directly to the valve oscillated mains regenerator.
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Aye, but that's only because it's hardly used!! :lol:
No idea how you broke the first one... Must've died of ennui! :D
Sorry, couldn't resist.... ;)
Marco.
:lol::lol::lol: (had to look up ennui.....obviously).
Look, I reckon the only way to prove this cable malarkey is for real is to get the assistance of a friend (I know, I'm struggling there too) to do cable swapping duties, not see what cables have been fitted, then pick what sounds best.
So, I've bought a blindfold but I can't see myself wearing it.
I said, I've bought a blindfold but I can't see myself wearing it...
More likely to be strung up with Oxygen Free Noose!
Bravo :lol: or some of that braided Cat5 rubbish eh Gaz?;):eek::D:cool:
Bravo :lol: or some of that braided Cat5 rubbish eh Gaz?;):eek::D:cool:
Is it directional? Do people die more quickly if the noose is made with the conductors running in one direction only?
Light Dependant Resistor
07-02-2017, 21:17
:lol::lol::lol: (had to look up ennui.....obviously).
Look, I reckon the only way to prove this cable malarkey is for real is to get the assistance of a friend (I know, I'm struggling there too) to do cable swapping duties, not see what cables have been fitted, then pick what sounds best.
So, I've bought a blindfold but I can't see myself wearing it.
I said, I've bought a blindfold but I can't see myself wearing it...
A selfie that we can see too, might fix that, thats if you can find the camera with the blindfold on.
Make sure you are not on your 5th floor apartment balcony though, or anywhere equally hazardous.
Cyril Bateman I believe has done the worlds most comprehensive study into
the relationship of speakers and cables http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?48715-Cyril-Bateman-speaker-side-Zobel-network
Cheers / Chris
Is it directional? Do people die more quickly if the noose is made with the conductors running in one direction only?
No, they're just more dead and lifeless.
Sherwood
07-02-2017, 21:23
No, they're just more dead and lifeless.
Can't comment on directionality but I've heard that there are significant benefits from bi-noosing!
If it can make an 8 track player plugged into powered PC speakers sound good I'll buy it.
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dimkasta
07-02-2017, 21:43
Wow that was a nice trollrage :D
It's even funnier because I was serious about resistors and capacitors :D
If you can't hear the difference, sonically, between various types of resistors and capacitors, then you *truly* are deaf! ;)
Marco.
dimkasta
07-02-2017, 22:20
Well said :D
Here's some enlightening reading on the subject, from my experimenting with passive preamps: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?40691-Goldpoint-SA4M-47-passive-preamp-winging-its-way-to-Marco-Towers&p=690855#post690855
Yes of course all resistors (of the same electrical value) sound the same [not]! ;)
Marco.
Wow that was a nice trollrage :D
It's even funnier because I was serious about resistors and capacitors :D
And I was serious about fuses :D
(see 39 page thread!)
Bravo :lol: or some of that braided Cat5 rubbish eh Gaz?;):eek::D:cool:
Good too for towing the car with... :)
You can get carried away with capacitors and resistors too. They absolutely affect the sound. Replacing every component with the most expensive equivalent you can find doesn't mean it will sound good.
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Sherwood
07-02-2017, 23:01
No need to get so heated about the debate: let's all de-fuse the situation!
You can get carried away with capacitors and resistors too. They absolutely affect the sound. Replacing every component with the most expensive equivalent you can find doesn't mean it will sound good.
Indeed, the replacement process needs to be just a little more judicious ;)
Marco.
dimkasta
08-02-2017, 01:01
And I was serious about fuses :D
(see 39 page thread!)
If it involves ceramic Cooper Bussman I m interested :D link please?
Good too for towing the car with...
I'd rather spend a $1000 than spend a day braiding that stuff and trying to solder it together with no shorts.
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If it involves ceramic Cooper Bussman I m interested :D link please?
Afraid theres was no Bussman's used (or harmed) in the thread Dimitri... :)
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?48809-Wasn-t-gonna-post-this
and another on another forum, original threqd that got me interested in the idea in the first place...now at 71 pages!
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/synergistic-red-fuse
Theres a lot of us hard of hearing, easily led audiophools around!
I'd rather spend a $1000 than spend a day braiding that stuff and trying to solder it together with no shorts.
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The Cat5 stuff is easier than you might think Nathan, a diy guy who knows his way around a multimeter would have no issue.
Only issue with this stuff is compatibility with certain amps, sure you know that though.
Took a much more upmarket (read expensive) cable to significantly better it.
I couldnt afford it a full price, got a great deal 2nd hand.
The Cat5 stuff is easier than you might think Nathan, a diy guy who knows his way around a multimeter would have no issue.
Only issue with this stuff is compatibility with certain amps, sure you know that though.
Took a much more upmarket (read expensive) cable to significantly better it.
I couldnt afford it a full price, got a great deal 2nd hand.
I make my own cable all the time. I'll have to try it. Some of the videos I've seen of people doing that look like a nightmare. I think they use way too many strands too. Some of them look like they're as big around as a vacuum hose. 10 doubled up cat five cables seems like a lot of twisting.
I've had the best luck with good coax, or multiple strands of 24-26 gauge tinned copper wire.
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Costs next to nothing but your time, and like the rest of us know your curious! ;)
I always rolled my own till I realised others can do it better than me!
As always Nathan, (my opinion!) an educated balance is required in most areas...
My speaker cables are very short (no longer than 1m in length). So far I have used: QED 79 strand; Van Damme 4mm2 and 6mm2 CSA, and Fisual foil-shielded cable.
Can't say I've noticed any difference between them.
walpurgis
08-02-2017, 20:14
My speaker cables are very short (no longer than 1m in length). So far I have used: QED 79 strand; Van Damme 4mm2 and 6mm2 CSA, and Fisual foil-shielded cable.
Can't say I've noticed any difference between them.
That's odd. Maybe they have similar characteristics.
I hear distinct differences in the sound if I swap cables about on my system. Very happy with my current speaker wires. Transparent Audio Musichord. It was one of their cheaper options, but works a treat here.
Sherwood
08-02-2017, 20:16
I concur. I have just made up a very short set of speaker cables using the really thick Belden coaxial stuff. Sounds fine but nothing obviously different from the earlier cable. It might have made a difference on a longer run but I doubt it would be much of a difference.
I did notice a difference (i.e. modest overall improvement) though when I went from RCA to balanced XLR interconnects.
My speaker cables are very short (no longer than 1m in length). So far I have used: QED 79 strand; Van Damme 4mm2 and 6mm2 CSA, and Fisual foil-shielded cable.
Can't say I've noticed any difference between them.
I'm sure other people can do it better than me. I just don't think it's worth the cost for my needs. Some of the amps and receivers I use can't accept banana plugs or spades. I have to use bare wire on them. The RCA jacks on a lot of them are too close together, or too shallow to use big plugs.
My speakers are about 3 meters apart. I keep them as short as I can, but not that short.
I have plenty of cat5 cable already. I'll give it a shot one of these days. I've got too many projects going at once already.
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I concur. I have just made up a very short set of speaker cables using the really thick Belden coaxial stuff. Sounds fine but nothing obviously different from the earlier cable. It might have made a difference on a longer run but I doubt it would be much of a difference.
I did notice a difference (i.e. modest overall improvement) though when I went from RCA to balanced XLR interconnects.
There might be something in that. I use balanced-line interconnects between my preamp and monoblock power amps, located directly behind each speaker. That is why I am able to use short speaker leads; which was my intention.
I use external crossovers too. I can make up for any mismatches by using different ones, or changing some components. The ones inside the speakers are disconnected. Those changes are easier to actually measure.
I can't really tell a difference in bi-wiring them from the same amp even with external crossovers. Actual bi-amping is noticable.
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I'm sure other people can do it better than me. I just don't think it's worth the cost for my needs. Some of the amps and receivers I use can't accept banana plugs or spades. I have to use bare wire on them. The RCA jacks on a lot of them are too close together, or too shallow to use big plugs.
My speakers are about 3 meters apart. I keep them as short as I can, but not that short.
I have plenty of cat5 cable already. I'll give it a shot one of these days. I've got too many projects going at once already.
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Yeah...worth a try. :)
One of these things thats good to have said you've tried!
Dont use my braided Cat5s any more, if you were more local I'd have posted them off for you Nathan to have had a play with. :)
Yeah...worth a try. :)
One of these things thats good to have said you've tried!
Dont use my braided Cat5s any more, if you were more local I'd have posted them off for you Nathan to have had a play with. :)
Appreciate it. The postage would be ridiculous, and I'd probably get put on some watchlist the way things are going here. I got a card from Australia last week and customs had opened it.
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Sherwood
08-02-2017, 21:33
There might be something in that. I use balanced-line interconnects between my preamp and monoblock power amps, located directly behind each speaker. That is why I am able to use short speaker leads; which was my intention.
Ditto! I am using Nuprime STA-9 power amps in monoblock mode into Magneplanar 1.7 speakers. The speaker cables are 75cm and I will probably shorten them further once I turn a pile of cut 18mm MDF parts into a plinth for the Maggies into which the STA-9s will fit. I recently bought a pair of LyxPro XLR cables from Amazon https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00KWINLD8/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
The sound with the XLRs was cleaner and louder (for any given volume setting) with the XLRs. The already low noise floor seemed to disappear. The LyxPro cables are well made but very cheap. I cannot imagine what i would have paid to get an equivalent pair of RCA interconnects of the same length.
Geoff
Ditto! I am using Nuprime STA-9 power amps in monoblock mode into Magneplanar 1.7 speakers. The speaker cables are 75cm and I will probably shorten them further once I turn a pile of cut 18mm MDF parts into a plinth for the Maggies into which the STA-9s will fit. I recently bought a pair of LyxPro XLR cables from Amazon https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00KWINLD8/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
The sound with the XLRs was cleaner and louder (for any given volume setting) with the XLRs. The already low noise floor seemed to disappear. The LyxPro cables are well made but very cheap. I cannot imagine what i would have paid to get an equivalent pair of RCA interconnects of the same length.
Geoff
Something about XLRs...
Spent a lot of time, effort (and money unfortunately) looking into the best digital hookup to my Dac?
Expensive glass medical opticals, USB's and uber American coaxial cables (Siltec and the like) later...settled on XLR as the best sounding digital connction to my Dac.
And digital ISN'T 1's and 0's....so any old cable wont cut it, 1.5m or otherwise....like most other hifi related things quality will out.
A journey, but I got there.
Just my experience?
Got digital? If you can XLR all the way...
Something about XLRs...
Spent a lot of time, effort (and money unfortunately) looking into the best digital hookup to my Dac?
Expensive glass medical opticals, USB's and uber American coaxial cables (Siltec and the like) later...settled on XLR as the best sounding digital connction to my Dac.
And digital ISN'T 1's and 0's....so any old cable wont cut it, 1.5m or otherwise....like most other hifi related things quality will out.
A journey, but I got there.
Just my experience?
Got digital? If you can XLR all the way...
Does your source output AES, or are you sending spdif over an XLR cable?
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Some food for thought: https://www.lifewire.com/speaker-cable-differences-3134603
I'm still sceptical, especially as I don't believe one can hear a low-Q 'resonance' of 0.3dB in amplitude. And I don't think anyone would advocate using 24AWG size cables.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge
Interesting, and to expand on this, please see some thoughts from LFD:
---
However, I’ve not talked about the subjective “time response” of single or a multistrand cable.
Which means what exactly?
A: Unfortunately it appears that a single strand cable seems to “ring ” at a particular frequency (related to its diameter) and has a fast decay. Whereas multistrand cables on the other hand, again “rings” at a particular frequency (related to the diameter of the strands), but the ringing is much longer in duration. I believe that neither cable solution is correct, since the fast decay of single strands tends to lead to subjective comments like: tight, fast sound, but not rich or warm. Whereas a multistrand cable can often sound: warm, slow with some smearing. I must point out that copper is much easier to work with, since its subjective “frequency response” is wider than that of silver for comparable single strand conductors. That is why many silver cables appear to sound not quite right, sometimes they might be a little bright or coloured.
---
Full article here: https://audiophiledotwordpressdotcom.wordpress.com/2013/05/09/when-it-comes-to-lfd-cables-silver-versus-copper/
dimkasta
09-02-2017, 10:29
It's such pseudo-science that gives cables the nasty reputation.
Sherwood
09-02-2017, 11:12
Interesting, and to expand on this, please see some thoughts from LFD:
---
However, I’ve not talked about the subjective “time response” of single or a multistrand cable.
Which means what exactly?
A: Unfortunately it appears that a single strand cable seems to “ring ” at a particular frequency (related to its diameter) and has a fast decay. Whereas multistrand cables on the other hand, again “rings” at a particular frequency (related to the diameter of the strands), but the ringing is much longer in duration. I believe that neither cable solution is correct, since the fast decay of single strands tends to lead to subjective comments like: tight, fast sound, but not rich or warm. Whereas a multistrand cable can often sound: warm, slow with some smearing. I must point out that copper is much easier to work with, since its subjective “frequency response” is wider than that of silver for comparable single strand conductors. That is why many silver cables appear to sound not quite right, sometimes they might be a little bright or coloured.
---
Full article here: https://audiophiledotwordpressdotcom.wordpress.com/2013/05/09/when-it-comes-to-lfd-cables-silver-versus-copper/
Presumably silver coloured and shiny bright!:rolleyes:
dimkasta
09-02-2017, 11:42
If you want an indication about "coloration" based on brightness, a bright cable colors less.
The filters that cables create are low-pass, since capacitance appears across the wires (not in series with them), and inductance appears in series.
It's such pseudo-science that gives cables the nasty reputation.
No, what gives cables the 'nasty reputation' is that no one can scientifically explain why they sound different unless there are wildly different LCR values, or if the amp needs ultra-low capacitance speaker cable (like NVA, early Exposure & Naim). This is why there are many hardened engineers out there who embrace the subjective, and focus on sound quality over theory.
Is that article about piano wire? He's probably right about the 6th nine being a waste.
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dimkasta
09-02-2017, 12:37
No, what gives cables the 'nasty reputation' is that no one can scientifically explain why they sound different unless there are wildly different LCR values, or if the amp needs ultra-low capacitance speaker cable (like NVA, early Exposure & Naim). This is why there are many hardened engineers out there who embrace the subjective, and focus on sound quality over theory.
Embracing empirical evidence is something I do myself regularly.
Hardly an engineer (not even close), but I can appreciate how we need to keep an open mind when we cannot explain things that we observe.
It's the guesswork and sprinkling of technical terms that makes me suspicious.
For example, there is no need to put "subjective" before bandwidth. Bandwidth can be measured easily up to many MHz. Same with time response and ringing. If the author talks about something different, then he should not use those terms at all because they are confusing and they only work as marketing.
Claiming that some things cannot be explained is not an arguement. It is a reason not to present an unverifiable hypothesis in the first place.
It is such things that feed the hardcore engineers that need to explain everything with ohm's law.
There's a difference between saying this sounds better, and explaining why with what amounts to a conspiracy theory.
I've got flatwounds on my bass but I can't make them sound like Steve Harris does. There's no electronic theory involved there.
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dimkasta
09-02-2017, 14:02
It's the mirror pickguard that makes the difference :D
It's the mirror pickguard that makes the difference :D
I've tried the towel duct taped to the strap as much as I hate to admit it.
There's a difference between saying this sounds better, and explaining why with what amounts to a conspiracy theory.
I've got flatwounds on my bass but I can't make them sound like Steve Harris does. There's no electronic theory involved there.
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Your hairs too short! :)
Your hairs too short! :)
It has been pretty long. I never had the bangs. Maybe that's where I went wrong.
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This stuff scored 4.7/5.0 on Amazon. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170210/2d2085c678f75acceb1c2b3a328fecfa.jpg
I've got a 100 feet. I can bi-wire both speakers and still have about 18 feet of slack for adjusting speaker placement after it burns in for about 200 hours. That should give me a good baseline to work from.
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