PDA

View Full Version : New Year diy project: advice sought chaps



Gazjam
27-12-2009, 15:40
Being a bit cash strapped at the moment, I hit upon the idea (from another thread) of upgrading the innards of my AE109 speakers, particularly upgrading the crossover, but looking at wiring too.

Thanks to DJSR and Andre for starting me off in the right direction here:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=89837#post89837

I'm a novice when it comes to this thing, so any advice much appreciated.

Now, specifics.

I find the speakers maybe a bit dull and shut in at sensible levels and would like more upper mid/top end "air" and openness.
For AV use they really pack a whallop, very clear, dynamic and ballsy...for music...not so much.
They need a "kick up the bum" to get them shifting air, and usually by that point the neighbours start to complain!

I heard that the 109s have the tweeter smoothed off in the crossover, so maybe this is a place to start here.
I googles and found this;

"To get real airy highs and clear emotive vocals, replace the stock crossover caps to ICW (PX and SA) caps and resistors to 1% wirewound 12W Mills as mid-priced mass-produced speakers won't definitely come with great components."

this was a guy who was nodding his AE209s so I'd imagine similar would apply to my speakers?

Any advice much appreciated!
Gaz.*

Ali Tait
27-12-2009, 16:06
It's a difficult one this Gaz,because different makes of caps will give a completely different sound.The best thing to do is try a few different types and see for yourself.Here would be a good start-

http://wduk.worldomain.net/acatalog/SONIQS_PXX_Polypropylene_Capacitors.html

Or here-

http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/claritycap_sa.html


Both of these are the same thing,so just check which is cheapest.These are excellent caps for the money.

If you find the tweeters a little dull,see if you can find a crossover schematic.You will most likely find a resistor feeding the tweeter.Try buying a few values a little lower than the stock value,the lower the value,the brighter the sound.The Takman range from Hi-Fi Collective are very good at cheap price.I have them in my WAD Pre2.If you need any help when you come to do this,gimme a shout.:)

Ali Tait
27-12-2009, 16:11
Thinking about it though,if the speakers are a few years old,just changing the caps may have the desired effect as the stock ones may be a little tired.Worth a go,and cheap to do!

Primalsea
27-12-2009, 16:17
Changing the crossover comonents with superior ones will help and a small tweak to values will change the overall balance.

Do one change at a time and listen extensively to each one. Without some software and a decent flat responce mic to measure your speakers output you can quickly get lost. If you cant measure the speakers responce make notes so you can always go back to each step.

Ultimately though you are limited to the comprimises of the box design and the drivers used but it can still be worthwhile as you can can hear the speakers the best they are likely ever to be which is often much better than stock.

I have all of the articles written by Peter Comeau about speaker making which are a great intro to it. I can email them if you PM me your address.

Gazjam
27-12-2009, 16:20
It's a difficult one this Gaz,because different makes of caps will give a completely different sound.The best thing to do is try a few different types and see for yourself.Here would be a good start-

http://wduk.worldomain.net/acatalog/SONIQS_PXX_Polypropylene_Capacitors.html

Or here-

http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/claritycap_sa.html


Both of these are the same thing,so just check which is cheapest.These are excellent caps for the money.

If you find the tweeters a little dull,see if you can find a crossover schematic.You will most likely find a resistor feeding the tweeter.Try buying a few values a little lower than the stock value,the lower the value,the brighter the sound.The Takman range from Hi-Fi Collective are very good at cheap price.I have them in my WAD Pre2.If you need any help when you come to do this,gimme a shout.:)

Excellent mate, thanks very much.
and thanks for the offer! :cool:

Had a look, oh..which one to choose..ratings etc...
will get my thinking cap (and brush up my Google-fu) and check it out.

Covenant
27-12-2009, 16:35
Hope you will still go for the next Standac upgrade as well Gaz! :)

Gazjam
27-12-2009, 16:52
Sure will Jerry...cant fall behind you guys after all?
:)

Im waiting though till theses a "specific" recognised upgrade that a few bods have came back with saying its a good un and worth having.
Kinda like the Wolfsen Dac/Opamp jobbie for the 7520?

On an unrelated note...(kinda)
I DID get the speakers up REALLY loud today(next door out all day) and it was fantastic.
Rush 2112 Live played full tilt...

The Speakers CAN sound dynamic, fast and ballsy as hell - I just have to really turn the wick up to get them moving...

DSJR
27-12-2009, 20:54
I think the testing where I got my info was from HiFi Choice, when they still published such things, although it could have been a HFN group test.

Can you remove said crossover and either take a piccie or three and/or draw the tweeter crossover out?
Once I know what the tweeter crossover is doing, I can suggest things/values based on my TDL tweaks (the original RTL2 was stunning but the better finished mk2 went like the AE109's with 5 Ohms too much padding on the tweeter).

There is probably a cap and resistor feeding the tweeter. if the cap is replaced with a better one, the slightly lower resistance will lift the tweeter slightly in level (as did the Epos ES14/11 tweeter-cap replacements).

This is a wide shot, but I wonder if AE themselves could supply details as these speakers are rather old now and well out of warranty...

Gazjam
29-12-2009, 12:23
I think the testing where I got my info was from HiFi Choice, when they still published such things, although it could have been a HFN group test.

Can you remove said crossover and either take a piccie or three and/or draw the tweeter crossover out?
Once I know what the tweeter crossover is doing, I can suggest things/values based on my TDL tweaks (the original RTL2 was stunning but the better finished mk2 went like the AE109's with 5 Ohms too much padding on the tweeter).

There is probably a cap and resistor feeding the tweeter. if the cap is replaced with a better one, the slightly lower resistance will lift the tweeter slightly in level (as did the Epos ES14/11 tweeter-cap replacements).

This is a wide shot, but I wonder if AE themselves could supply details as these speakers are rather old now and well out of warranty...

Thanks Dave two good suggestions.
Ill email AE and post a photo on here over next couple of days.
All suggestions welcome!

Cheers
Gary.

Rare Bird
29-12-2009, 12:50
"To get real airy highs and clear emotive vocals, replace the stock crossover caps to ICW (PX and SA) caps and resistors to 1% wirewound 12W Mills as mid-priced mass-produced speakers won't definitely come with great components."





Hi Gaz
I chose the Kimber as they are in my view one of the best sounding Poly caps for the money, you have to bear in mind that spending an absolute fortune on the speaker crossovers (which is very easy) is dead money & will easily override the actual speakers 2nd hand value..Another brilliant cheap cap is the Ansar 'supersound'.Ansar is slightly more brighter than Kimber, but no was near as good as Kimber Kap.People with boast about all types of metalised Poly caps but to be honest most sound tripe.

Deffo wouldnt use the Mills wirewound resistors..

Caddock MP930 are the best metal film power resistor IMHO, with aid of heatsink can give you up to 30 Watt..have a very tight tolerance of 1%, less distortion than others, i don't know any other power resistor as good as these..

Gazjam
14-01-2010, 21:44
UPDATE:
I emailed AE and they were good enough to send me a Circuit Diagram for theAE109, good stuff!
Also, i took some photographs (using my crappy camera phone) which I HOPE can be useful...as they are pretty blurry, but I couldn't get the backplate far enough away from the speaker cabinet due to short wire lengths...

Any help or advice (Dave, you there!? :)) much appreciated.
I'm an electronics noob, so keep it simple chaps!

Thanks
Gary.

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/4563/109crossover.th.jpg (http://img138.imageshack.us/i/109crossover.jpg/)
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/7615/image008tb.th.jpg (http://img132.imageshack.us/i/image008tb.jpg/)
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/507/image005yo.th.jpg (http://img132.imageshack.us/i/image005yo.jpg/)

Gazjam
14-01-2010, 21:50
*EDIT*
Double Post

Gazjam
19-01-2010, 18:47
Anyone any thoughts....?

Ali Tait
19-01-2010, 19:18
Yep.Replace everything with something newer and better! :lolsign:

Gazjam
19-01-2010, 19:34
Thanks for that Ali,
Why didnt I think of that??? :)

Ali Tait
19-01-2010, 19:42
Ok,make a list of all the parts in the crossover.I'm reading on a netbook so can't see it very well.

Ali Tait
19-01-2010, 19:44
Just the caps,resistors and coils.

Gazjam
19-01-2010, 19:59
Just the caps,resistors and coils.

I managed to get Acoustic Energy to send the circuit diagram and Parts list for the AE109?
Would that help?

Its the first pic in my post I think, take a look mate I'd really appreciate any help.


Cheers,
Gaz.

Ali Tait
19-01-2010, 20:33
Yep,but as I said,I'm reading on a netbook,which has a small screen,and I can't read it properly.If you post a list,I'll have a look for what I think would be good replacements.

Gazjam
20-01-2010, 09:47
Thanks Ali,
will do mate, thanks for your help.

Ali Tait
20-01-2010, 12:05
No worries.:)

Ali Tait
21-01-2010, 17:49
Hi Gaz,
Been having a look.Seems you need-
Caps-
C1-7uF
C2-3uF
C3-4.7uF

Resistors-
R1-2R2 10w
R2-0r9 5w.

The inductors don't seem to quite agree between the list and the scheme,so maybe leave them for now.

Been looking on hi-Fi collective and found these-

Caps-ClarityCap SA Range-

2 of 6.8uF(C1) £15.30 (Close enough value)
2 of 3uF (C2) £9.98
2 of 4.7uF (C3) £11.20

Resistors-Duelund-

2 of 2R2 (R1) £29.98
2 of 1R (R2) £29.38 (Close enough value)


Gets a bit pricey if you buy everything,maybe just try the caps first.At least you have the values now and can look around.

Gazjam
21-01-2010, 21:54
Cheers Ali, much obliged...

Now to get the soldering manual out...
daft question?

Do take off the old components, whats the best way to remove the "clear plastic" they seem to be embedded in?
I take it this stuff is just to help hold the components in place, and if so is it VITAL that I apply new stuff around the new components?

I'm going to be hitting youtube and the net about this (I know next to nowt really, but how hard can it be?)

A heads up on this, what appears to be the first hurdle, would be great though..

thanks.

Ali Tait
22-01-2010, 10:24
The plastic will be to damp vibration I think.Try seeing if you can cut it away with a craft knife or similar,or see if nail varnish remover will take it off on the back of the board so you can desolder the components.As for soldering,Maplins used to sell solder practice kits,or failing that,buy some of their cheap led kits to have a go on first.

Before removing anything from the xovers,make a drawing of them,including which wires go where so you can easily reassemble.If you're not sure,once you have all the bits,drop me a pm and you could come over one weekend and we'll get you sorted.

Gazjam
25-01-2010, 09:50
Thanks Ali, I might just take you up on that!

Chers
Gaz.