phono stage advice

[smithie]

ive taken the text below from part of another post i posted earlier that got put into the technics section.as this is more a general post i thought i would stick this part in here in the hope of getting a bigger response...

.i now need a phono stage and have no ideal as to what to go for...
i was using a rega brio r until recently and was using its phono stage which i thought was great,but i have since sold that and now i have a avi lab s21 intergrated which hasnt got the phonoboard fitted,and at £300 for said board i dont think ill be investing in that,saying that it would be good to hear if anyone has used the avi phonostage and what they think of it soundwise,and how it compares to others around the same price or above....it may be a killer sounding thing so i wont rule it out completely....just cant find no opinions or info on it to judge.
the avi is a very neutral sounding amp and go well with my tannoy xt6f,so i guess im on the look out for a phono stage that bares the same traits,ive been thinking the schiit mani as a option...mainly because its a good price and its been getting some great reviews etc.
but i would be willing to spend some more dosh if i can get a substantial upgrade that will do my level of front end justice(technics sl1500 using a denon 110 at present,but will aim to use a nag mp110).
and i have no problems with it being s/h etc if it nets me a better sounding phono stage that will do my level of turntable justice.
so any help/advice/guidance would so much be appreciated...

regards
smithie

[Jimbo]

Would you consider a valve phono stage, brings something extra to vinyl that SS can't quite match. However you may like the control and precision of a SS phono stage?

If you do consider valve then a Croft phono stage would be my first consideration. Dynamic, detailed, transparent with a touch of Croft valve magic that brings a live presentation to recordings. If you use NOS valves then they can sound very special.

[hifi_dave]

Definitely Croft RIAA. Nothing comes close at anywhere near the price.

[smithie]

hi guys
thanks for the advice and recommendations.
i have no preference regarding ss or valve,just after the best sound i can achieve for my turntable and budget....talking of which,doesnt the croft come in at something like £500?
i need to sort some bits out on the technics first so im in no rush to get a phono stage just yet,so i can keep saving,so my next question is this....am i likely to see a £360 pound gain in sound quality over a schiit mani,and will my modest front end justify such a phono stage?
sorry for all the questions i just have no real experience of phono stages,and havent got much chance of borrowing or hearing any down here in sunny cornwall,so im relying on all the advice/knowledge and experience that you guys have to steer me true:scratch:
many thanks so far.

smithie

[Ali Tait]

Firebottle. I've not heard anything at or near the price that's better.

Plus, you can demo a loaner unit for the cost of postage.

[Arkless Electronics]

The Arkless 640P. There's nothing even at triple the price that's better.

[Jimbo]

hi guys
thanks for the advice and recommendations.
i have no preference regarding ss or valve,just after the best sound i can achieve for my turntable and budget....talking of which,doesnt the croft come in at something like £500?
i need to sort some bits out on the technics first so im in no rush to get a phono stage just yet,so i can keep saving,so my next question is this....am i likely to see a £360 pound gain in sound quality over a schiit mani,and will my modest front end justify such a phono stage?
sorry for all the questions i just have no real experience of phono stages,and havent got much chance of borrowing or hearing any down here in sunny cornwall,so im relying on all the advice/knowledge and experience that you guys have to steer me true:scratch:
many thanks so far.

smithie

You would be fine with any of those recommendations, I have heard the Firebottle phono stage, it is very good. Slightly smoother presentation to the Croft. The Croft has more bite as it were.

[RothwellAudio]

The Denon DL110 is a fairly low output cartridge. It's about 10dB quieter than a typical MM cartridge and about 10dB quieter than the Nagaoka MP110. A phonostage with some adjustment for gain might be useful, though not essential. You would want about 40dB for the Nagaoka and 50dB for the Denon, though you would be ok with about 40dB for both cartridges if the phonostage had just one gain setting (as most do).
I'm assuming your budget is £100 - £150, correct?
There's a bewildering array to choose from so I'll let others chip in with suggestions.

[clarkey555]

The Arkless 640P. There's nothing even at triple the price that's better.

I have to agree with Jez the Arkless phono stage is a giant killer and certainly would work well in your system. I was in a similar predicament a while back and after a little research and speaking with Jez it was a no brainer absolutely superb phono stage buy with confidence :)

[reefhead]

Had both Arkless and Firebottle on loan and invested in the Firebottle as a keeper- huge difference, and easy choice for me. Firebottle offers huge bang for buck and worked really well with my 401/Aritimez/DV17D3 (now a Benz Ace).

[Arkless Electronics]

As we have fans of both I suggest the OP try both ;) The Arkless 640P is £225 + you need a donor unit, which doesn't even need to be working...

[Floyddroid]

Phono stages are a nightmare. Just make sure to hear as many as you can before shelling out. Get which ever one suits the rest of your kit and has your foot tapping.

[Haselsh1]

I have just bought a Rothwell MC Headamp to use with the new Denon DL103 so that I can feed the output into the inbuilt phono stage in my preamp which I bloody love. I'm expecting delivery mid next week. I have been using a Pro-Ject DS phonobox but it is hopeless with low output moving coils due to some serious levels of hum.

[petrat]

I have just bought a Rothwell MC Headamp to use with the new Denon DL103 so that I can feed the output into the inbuilt phono stage in my preamp which I bloody love. I'm expecting delivery mid next week. I have been using a Pro-Ject DS phonobox but it is hopeless with low output moving coils due to some serious levels of hum.

Excellent choice, Shaun :thumbsup: Having had both (several) 103s and the Rothwell Headspace, I reckon that'll be an excellent combo and should really complement the Prima Lunas perfectly. Just remember to give the cartridge a good 30 hours thrashing before passing final judgement.

[hifi_dave]

The Rothwell products are great and very good value. Highly recommended.

[macvisual]

Recently found/bought by luck a Kinshaw Perception 2x box switchable MM/MC phono-stage, really great sounding for a few hundred pounds.......and versatile.....!!

And there's an upgrade for any Kinshaw Perception owners, £250 to have a new PCB installed which apparently dramatically improves on things, and if not happy you'll get your money back and have the board removed and put back to standard guise again.


Here's the link to the original owner/designer of the Kinshaw phono-stage;
http://www.hawksheaddesigns.co.uk

[smithie]

hi guys
thanks for all your views,thoughts and recommendations....there certainly seems to be some options there:stalks::scratch:
let me ask this direct question...
what sort of caliber/price range phonostage should i be aiming for taking into account my modest front end technics sl1500 with denon 110/nag mp110 choice,i have no aim to go any higher regarding turntable front end or cartridge wise(but may play/tweak/mod said items)...so wheres the point where the phonostage is going to be to good for the front end?

regards
smithie

[Arkless Electronics]

hi guys
thanks for all your views,thoughts and recommendations....there certainly seems to be some options there:stalks::scratch:
let me ask this direct question...
what sort of caliber/price range phonostage should i be aiming for taking into account my modest front end technics sl1500 with denon 110/nag mp110 choice,i have no aim to go any higher regarding turntable front end or cartridge wise(but may play/tweak/mod said items)...so wheres the point where the phonostage is going to be to good for the front end?

regards
smithie

There's no such thing as too good! A chain is as strong as its weakest link and phono stages are not easy to get right. The very low signal levels from the cartridge and the need for RIAA equalisation means that there are far bigger differences between phono stages than with integrated amps, pre amps and power amps.

A recent review here on AOS put the Arkless 640P, at £225, ahead of the award winning Primare R32 at £850.... many other such "giant killing" feats can be found in other reviews of the Arkless 640P which a bit of googling will no doubt find;)

A demo unit is available to try.

[struth]

An emotiva or schiit would certainly do as well if you want cheaper than the Arkless. Smaller size too. There is one small one in an acrylic box ive forgot name of that youll pick up second hand for 1 to 2 depending on version that are pretty decent. All can easily handle a 110. Higher gain the better imo. The 110 isnt the loudest cart

[Infinitely Baffled]

what sort of caliber/price range phonostage should i be aiming for taking into account my modest front end ... so wheres the point where the phonostage is going to be to good for the front end?

I think it would be a mistake to deliberately limit the quality of your phono stage choice on the basis that you want to "match" it to your system that you consider modest. My advice is buy the best you can afford. A better phono stage is going to make a better job of processing the delicate signal coming out of the cartridge. And that is always going to be to the benefit of the sound coming out of your loudspeakers, no matter what components lie between them. If you deliberately aim for mediocre in the phono stage department, then that is a limitation you have introduced into your system that none of the other components is ever going to be able to dial out.
IB.

[Firebottle]

This ^^^

[Macca]

Would it be true to say, then, that the phono stage can never be too good for the cartridge? Even if the cart is a budget MM?

[struth]

It can be overkill, and in some cases possibly not as good. Some fancy ones like the whest i had was poor on say an at95. It was an expensive unit but i thought it nothing special personally and wouldnt have one in a gift

[Arkless Electronics]

Would it be true to say, then, that the phono stage can never be too good for the cartridge? Even if the cart is a budget MM?

Pretty much yes. The only caveat would be that some budget cartridges (and a few expensive ones!) with a raggedy top end to them may sound better balanced with a dull sounding phono stage...there again some budget cartridges are dull as ditch water... So yes generally the phono stage can never be too good for the cartridge.
With one of the better budget MM's such as the AT95E you will notice huge benefits with a decent phono stage.

[julesd68]

Would you consider a valve phono stage, brings something extra to vinyl that SS can't quite match. However you may like the control and precision of a SS phono stage?

If you do consider valve then a Croft phono stage would be my first consideration. Dynamic, detailed, transparent with a touch of Croft valve magic that brings a live presentation to recordings. If you use NOS valves then they can sound very special.

I'd agree with trying a valve phono. You could try to find a 2nd hand Puresound P10 which are excellent sounding and great build quality. I really liked mine.

[Arkless Electronics]

Would you consider a valve phono stage, brings something extra to vinyl that SS can't quite match. However you may like the control and precision of a SS phono stage?

If you do consider valve then a Croft phono stage would be my first consideration. Dynamic, detailed, transparent with a touch of Croft valve magic that brings a live presentation to recordings. If you use NOS valves then they can sound very special.

A SS stage can sound soft and valvey and a valve stage can have all the grip and precision any one could want... It's far too much of a generalisation and mainly down to things other than whether SS or valves are used.... I make both BTW.

[walpurgis]

A SS stage can sound soft and valvey and a valve stage can have all the grip and precision any one could want... It's far too much of a generalisation and mainly down to things other than whether SS or valves are used.... I make both BTW.

I agree. I've used and heard quite a few of both types.

I had a Graham Slee ERA Gold V for a few years and there's no way you'd tell whether it was valve or transistor just from listening to it. It had no signature sound. Which of course is a good thing.

[smithie]

well guys
thanks for all the views,advice and ideas....im certainly not stuck for choice am i
as ive been on a bit of a spending spree of late buying amplifiers/dacs im gonna have to take things slowly till i recoup finance wise:)
but at least i have a general idea of the caliber of phono stage i should aim for.....which seems to be the most expensive i can afford:lol:
at present it looks like im aiming for a schiit mani as its cheap,gets great reviews and will get me up and running again until i have some more coin in my pocket to get something a lot more worth while:scratch:
once again i appreciate all the help and advice and experience shared,i shall also keep some diy valve stage options open to,as im quite partial to a bit of diy and glowing valves....sometimes it can be a nightmare having to much choice:lol::lol:

regards
smithie:cool:

[CageyH]

There is no direct link between sound quality and cost.
Try some of the demo units available from different manufacturers and see which you prefer.

[petrat]

Something else to consider. I think that it's important to be able to easily alter the gain and loading on a phonostage, as, inevitably, you'll end up with different cartridges and amplifiers/speakers in the future. Phonostages that have a single 'set' gain and loading shouldn't be considered imo.

[RothwellAudio]

I wouldn't rule out phonostages with a set gain and load. For MM cartridges the spread of output voltages isn't particularly wide and 40dB gain will do the job in over 80% of cases.
MC cartridges tend to have more of a spread but 60dB gain and 100 ohm load will still be fine for the majority of them. The importance of the load impedance is often overstated in my opinion.

What would be useful is the ability to change the capacitive load for MM cartridges, but that's the one things that's conspicuous by its absense more often than not.

Anyway, I wouldn't say that fixed gain makes a phonostage a non-starter.

[Arkless Electronics]

Something else to consider. I think that it's important to be able to easily alter the gain and loading on a phonostage, as, inevitably, you'll end up with different cartridges and amplifiers/speakers in the future. Phonostages that have a single 'set' gain and loading shouldn't be considered imo.

I completely disagree and for the same reasons as Andrew gave.

MM's have a standard 47K resistive loading requirement, only capacitance may need changing and even then 100-200pF will suit 90% of carts. With MC carts the importance of correct resistive loading is exaggerated and they don't require any capacitive loading.
Gain: Most MM's are around 5mV output so one gain setting will suffice for 90% of the MM's ever made. MC's have a wider range of output's but in this case noise is likely to be the biggest issue with really low output MC's. The vast majority of MC's will be in the range 0.3mV - 0.6mV and this agsin is easily handles by one gain setting.

For what it's worth the Arkless 640P has infinitely adjustable loading for MM and MC by use of loading plugs and gain can be changed within certain limits by pre arranging with me to build for a certain gain. I would discourage this though for the reasons given above. It's quiet enough and has enough gain as is for me to use one with my Technics EPC-300MC cart with only 0.1mV output...

[smithie]

thanks once again for all the tips/advice and pointers.
i think for now im just going to go with something to tie me over while i research and ponder on the direction im gonna take and the limit im gonna aim to price wise etc regarding a phonostage.
my choice of phono stage to tie me over was a Musical Fidelity V90-LPS,but this seems to be out of stock at any sensible price?? have they stopped making this,noticed its still being advertised on the mf web site:scratch:....
of course if anyone has one going cheap,preferably in black,but ill take silver at a pinch:) then let me know,in the mean time ill keep looking and stick a wanted ad up

regards
smithie