View Full Version : WTD : Tube Buffer
Bigman80
27-01-2017, 17:40
Hi all,
I'm interested in trying a tube buffer. No more than £100 Inc postage. Might pay a bit more if it comes with interconnects.
Anyone got one squirrelled away gathering dust ??
Oliver.
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Lawrence001
27-01-2017, 21:50
I recently bought an ifi itube its much better than my previous MF x10d v3 (which was good) but they go for a lot more than £100
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Bigman80
27-01-2017, 21:51
I recently bought an ifi itube its much better than my previous MF x10d v3 (which was good) but they go for a lot more than £100
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Yes I've seen those. I'm now wondering if it's worth waiting and getting a bit more funds together first. 🤔
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Ive got a MF x10d v3 which I upgraded. It is now a completely different beastie. Costa a fair bit extra but worth it. I now dont need an external dac.
Bigman80
27-01-2017, 23:00
What did you do grant ?
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What did you do grant ?
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Rock grotto upgrade Oliver. Got the parts and fitted them. sonically its way better than its original form, which was still very decent. its boutique diodes and capacitors. about £70 for bits. Also added some nice proper feet which helped a bit.
Lawrence001
27-01-2017, 23:35
Yes I've seen those. I'm now wondering if it's worth waiting and getting a bit more funds together first. 🤔
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My x10d v3 was upgraded by Rock Grotto plus I had the little pinkie PSU but I still prefer the itube in buffer only mode. It's a matter of taste of course.
It also makes a great pre amp and has an interesting anti digititis mode, and a soundstage widening mode that works but is more a matter of taste. Downside is the pot has a channel imbalance at very low level (an issue with the model not just mine). Generally not a problem as its usually almost inaudible at that volume but I have a very high gain power amp (1000wpc at high input!) and do most of my listening nearfield late at night so it does affect me. I'd guess 95% of owners wouldn't use it at that level. I'm actually thinking of selling it on as I have bought an MF tri vista dac with output stage but I haven't made my mind up yet.
The alternative is a chinese buffer like the Yaqin but I'm not sure its in the same league as either of these being discussed.
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walpurgis
27-01-2017, 23:44
The alternative is a chinese buffer like the Yaqin but I'm not sure its in the same league as either of these being discussed.
It isn't.
no it isnt. not tried the itube. had a yaqin but this one is nice with my pioneer cd/dv player. it allowed me to lose the dac, so a box less.
Lawrence001
28-01-2017, 00:08
I haven't had the two at the same time so.hard to.compare but if I tried I.would.say the itube does what the x10 (upgraded) does but more. ie.better instrument seperation and.more front to back soundstaging. I remember keeping the x10 boxed up and getting it out occasionally but not hearing much difference. But at one point I got it out and never looked back. Could have been synergy with the new amp (restek challenger). Anyway when I got the itube I.noticed straight away so.its probably less subtle but.its so system dependent, and taste will differ between the amount of tubiness wanted. Anway I'm pleased I got the itube in the end. Im thinking vdac plus.itube might equal trivista*0.9 in my second system.
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Lawrence001
28-01-2017, 00:11
Btw it works great with my trichord dac and I might consider a deal on both to shift it...
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walpurgis
28-01-2017, 00:13
Oliver. This is a 'wanted' thread in Private Exhibitions and it has developed a fair bit of banter/chat. If that bothers you I can tidy things up. If not, we can proceed discussing the virtues of various buffers. It is quite informative.
I haven't had the two at the same time so.hard to.compare but if I tried I.would.say the itube does what the x10 (upgraded) does but more. ie.better instrument seperation and.more front to back soundstaging. I remember keeping the x10 boxed up and getting it out occasionally but not hearing much difference. But at one point I got it out and never looked back. Could have been synergy with the new amp (restek challenger). Anyway when I got the itube I.noticed straight away so.its probably less subtle but.its so system dependent, and taste will differ between the amount of tubiness wanted. Anway I'm pleased I got the itube in the end. Im thinking vdac plus.itube might equal trivista*0.9 in my second system.
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ifi make some nice products. as Ive got this one I will stick for now. Dont play cds that much at moment as Im using my headphone system mostly or vinyl occasionally on main system. Would never get my investment back in the MF anyway. If I ever change i will give that one a go. anyway thats 2 good options for Oli if he decides to increase budget which i think he will have to. The Yaqin buffers are nothing special tbh.
Lawrence001
28-01-2017, 00:33
Oliver. This is a 'wanted' thread in Private Exhibitions and it has developed a fair bit of banter/chat. If that bothers you I can tidy things up. If not, we can proceed discussing the virtues of various buffers. It is quite informative.
I finally got round to offering up my buffer anyway!
Bigman80
28-01-2017, 00:36
Haha yes it has generated quite a bit of chat but it's all good so let's leave it on.
Hopefully an offer will arise at some point lol
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Bigman80
28-01-2017, 00:42
I finally got round to offering up my buffer anyway!
I have the Valab DAC at the minute which would be difficult to remove as I would use it primarily for FLAC via USB. I'm interested in the MF X10 v3 though if you no longer need it. If I read all of that right lol
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Firebottle
28-01-2017, 12:35
Oliver, if you don't mind waiting a while (fat chance - i know what you are like), I have ordered one of these to have a play with:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1Pc-6J1-Valve-Pre-amp-Tube-PreAmplifier-Board-On-Musical-Fidelity-X10-D-Circuit-/291786271575?hash=item43efd12b57:g:44sAAOSwMNxXV91 4
Should certainly give a bit of tubiness to the sound. Could even be built as triode/pentode switchable :eyebrows:
Bigman80
28-01-2017, 13:23
Oliver, if you don't mind waiting a while (fat chance - i know what you are like), I have ordered one of these to have a play with:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1Pc-6J1-Valve-Pre-amp-Tube-PreAmplifier-Board-On-Musical-Fidelity-X10-D-Circuit-/291786271575?hash=item43efd12b57:g:44sAAOSwMNxXV91 4
Should certainly give a bit of tubiness to the sound. Could even be built as triode/pentode switchable :eyebrows:
You're the man Alan and if it's going to get the Firebottle treatment I'll wait. No rush this time. I'm happy to wait for the right bit of kit.
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Lawrence001
28-01-2017, 13:43
Can I have second dibs please?? Looked into this a while ago but I decided the ac/dc issue was too much for me.
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Bigman80
28-01-2017, 14:36
Can I have second dibs please?? Looked into this a while ago but I decided the ac/dc issue was too much for me.
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You've already got two !!!!!!
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Lawrence001
28-01-2017, 18:49
I sold the x10 last year.
Bigman80
28-01-2017, 19:07
I sold the x10 last year.
Haha. Not to worry. Alan is on the case.
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I make them out of old tube RTRs. I find them for $40 or less all the time. The circuit is already built, you just have to take it out, build a new enclosure, and recap it.
Selling the leftover tubes will usually leave you with more than you spent.
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Bigman80
02-02-2017, 08:03
I make them out of old tube RTRs. I find them for $40 or less all the time. The circuit is already built, you just have to take it out, build a new enclosure, and recap it.
Selling the leftover tubes will usually leave you with more than you spent.
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Ok, that's interesting. I'll have a look into it.
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You can do it without modifying the machine. Just use the input for recording ran straight through. Most of them have motors that are always on, so it's better to add a switch to the motor. I usually just strip the machines.
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Bigman80
02-02-2017, 14:06
You can do it without modifying the machine. Just use the input for recording ran straight through. Most of them have motors that are always on, so it's better to add a switch to the motor. I usually just strip the machines.
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Been looking on eBay lol. Sounds intriguing.
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Been looking on eBay lol. Sounds intriguing.
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I usually find them at record stores. Some of the old portables have some killer tubes in them too. Nobody wants the stuff, so they're usually glad to sell them cheap.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170202/d62549b91e989b2eb6278651d515f8dd.jpg
I pulled that out of a portable I paid $30 bucks for. The woofer out of it went for almost $600 on eBay. I haven't decided what to do with the mono block yet. Those tubes are extremely rare.
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Bigman80
02-02-2017, 15:09
Wow ! So you're making money and getting loads of cool items lol. Right ! I'm on the lookout now haha
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Firebottle
02-02-2017, 15:18
Trouble with the situation over here Nathan is the 'elf & safety brigade insist anything to be sold undergoes a PAT, so a lot of stuff that might have been available in thrift stores just gets junked instead :steam:
Bigman80
02-02-2017, 15:22
Trouble with the situation over here Nathan is the 'elf & safety brigade insist anything to be sold undergoes a PAT, so a lot of stuff that might have been available in thrift stores just gets junked instead :steam:
Ah, pat. Spent 6 months PAT testing in a factory when I left school. What a ball ache.
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Trouble with the situation over here Nathan is the 'elf & safety brigade insist anything to be sold undergoes a PAT, so a lot of stuff that might have been available in thrift stores just gets junked instead :steam:
That sucks. I learned the hobby by making frankensteined gear out of cast offs. I still rip parts out of any electronics I come across. I take what's left to place that claims to recycle them, but actually just burns them for the gold afterwards.
I fix a lot of the stuff and take it to Goodwill too.
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Trouble with the situation over here Nathan is the 'elf & safety brigade insist anything to be sold undergoes a PAT, so a lot of stuff that might have been available in thrift stores just gets junked instead :steam:
Do you know if anyone has ever turned a pair of these into monoblocks? I have two of them and was thinking they'd make cool cases, but they already have an push pull amp in them. I use them all the time, I don't know why I had never thought of it.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170210/8012430f2b2a6bc111dbc7c28503b565.jpg
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Dual output transformers too.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170210/a62d69f91ea422ee5cc6bad36b864a69.jpg
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Bigman80
10-02-2017, 11:58
I have no idea with this sort of thing.
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It could be done. It would be nice to see one someone else did for reference. The oscillator would just need to be removed. They're super clean too. It's a lab instrument. It puts out a better sine wave than any digital one I've ever used. I think it would look cool too since it's technically a tool. I nerd out over the antique test equipment. It's full of RCA tubes too.
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Oliver, if you don't mind waiting a while (fat chance - i know what you are like), I have ordered one of these to have a play with:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1Pc-6J1-Valve-Pre-amp-Tube-PreAmplifier-Board-On-Musical-Fidelity-X10-D-Circuit-/291786271575?hash=item43efd12b57:g:44sAAOSwMNxXV91 4
Should certainly give a bit of tubiness to the sound. Could even be built as triode/pentode switchable :eyebrows:
Great description by the eBay seller - wonder exactly what Bile sounds like!!!https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170210/250d174028560f523b0340e8edf675c1.jpg
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Old Hewlett Packard gear is great to look at and was built like a brick outhouse. We use to have loads of it (as well as Tektronics scopes) where I worked.
The newer Agilent gear, whilst being better performance-wise, just doesn't look the same with much use of plastic for the cases.
Old Hewlett Packard gear is great to look at and was built like a brick outhouse. We use to have loads of it (as well as Tektronics scopes) where I worked.
The newer Agilent gear, whilst be better performance-wise, just doesn't look the same with much use of plastic for the cases.
I don't like the digital generators, and scopes. I prefer the knobs and switches. I use two of those HPs, and a Tek 2225 most of the time. I have a Rigol scope, and generator I use when I need something more than 25Hz, or a sine wave. They aren't as good as the Agilents but they work for what I use them for.
I think those HPs would look cool on the floor next to my speakers. I was getting ready for work when I thought about it. I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work. I'll have to print out a copy of the circuit and dissect it over the weekend. If nothing else I can pull the tubes out, and build ones from scratch to put in them. The transformers should be more than enough to drive one. Those things are pretty cheap now.
Great description by the eBay seller - wonder exactly what Bile sounds like!!!https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170210/250d174028560f523b0340e8edf675c1.jpg
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Probably GWAR.
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Arkless Electronics
10-02-2017, 16:43
It would be a total disgrace to mess with those classic HP200 generators!! That's the product that made HP famous! Sacrilege alert!
I too use exclusively old analogue test gear. It's far more intuitive and "hands on" and just works great... it's also repairable should it go wrong! You can see some of it in my avatar...
It would be a total disgrace to mess with those classic HP200 generators!! That's the product that made HP famous! Sacrilege alert!
I too use exclusively old analogue test gear. It's far more intuitive and "hands on" and just works great... it's also repairable should it go wrong! You can see some of it in my avatar...
I know it is, but you can pick them up on eBay for $60 a pop all day long. They can set on someone's shelf for decoration, or be repurposed into something that would get used. I'm probably one of the only people that still actually works with one. That's why I think they would be a nice addition to my living room. All of my friends always think they're old clocks.
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Arkless Electronics
10-02-2017, 17:27
I know it is, but you can pick them up on eBay for $60 a pop all day long. They can set on someone's shelf for decoration, or be repurposed into something that would get used. I'm probably one of the only people that still actually works with one. That's why I think they would be a nice addition to my living room. All of my friends always think they're old clocks.
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I wish I could get one for that price over here!!
I wish I could get one for that price over here!!
The shipping is usually about the same as the price. The 200c still costs about $250-300.
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Firebottle
15-02-2017, 15:08
Oliver, if you don't mind waiting a while (fat chance - i know what you are like), I have ordered one of these to have a play with:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1Pc-6J1-Valve-Pre-amp-Tube-PreAmplifier-Board-On-Musical-Fidelity-X10-D-Circuit-/291786271575?hash=item43efd12b57:g:44sAAOSwMNxXV91 4
Should certainly give a bit of tubiness to the sound. Could even be built as triode/pentode switchable :eyebrows:
The board has arrived, can't quite believe it has cost under £9. Did a very quick test on the workbench and the square wave performance is exemplary.
For those that know if the square wave stays square then good things are going on.
Have yet to put music through it but will report in due course.
Bigman80
15-02-2017, 15:22
The board has arrived, can't quite believe it has cost under £9. Did a very quick test on the workbench and the square wave performance is exemplary.
For those that know if the square wave stays square then good things are going on.
Have yet to put music through it but will report in due course.
Outstanding. I'm waiting patiently. 🙃
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The board has arrived, can't quite believe it has cost under £9. Did a very quick test on the workbench and the square wave performance is exemplary.
For those that know if the square wave stays square then good things are going on.
Have yet to put music through it but will report in due course.
Do the valves have transistors inside of them? I've ordered that stuff a few times and they had a transistor and an LED hidden under the smoked glass.
Firebottle
15-02-2017, 19:29
No transistors Nathan, just a blue LED under the valve for that blue bling look. :whistle:
Bigman80
15-02-2017, 19:52
No transistors Nathan, just a blue LED under the valve for that blue bling look. :whistle:
So it's authentic valve goodness then
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No transistors Nathan, just a blue LED under the valve for that blue bling look. :whistle:
Nice. That's a really good price.
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Firebottle
19-02-2017, 09:03
Had it plumbed into the system and it is 'outstanding' to nick Oliver's description.
Very difficult to tell it was 'in system', just played a few LP sides, only one small problem of a little hum in the background.
This has now been cured by the addition of one extra electrolytic cap in the PSU section.
There is a high output impedance of 3.4 Kohm, but with short output leads and a high(ish) input impedance of the following amplifier this presents no problems.
I will be investigating a little mod to give a lower output impedance in due course. :)
Bigman80
19-02-2017, 09:27
That's great news. Patience visit paying off then.
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Stryder5
19-02-2017, 09:41
That's great news. Patience visit paying off then.
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Can we have a small Midlands meet at Alan's to listen:)
Firebottle
19-02-2017, 10:12
Yes bring it on.
I'll be experimenting with the output impedance later on.
Bigman80
19-02-2017, 10:25
Can we have a small Midlands meet at Alan's to listen:)
Yes bring it on.
I'll be experimenting with the output impedance later on.
sounds good !
Stryder5
19-02-2017, 13:23
sounds good !
Just let me know when, I'll be there.......:)
Lawrence001
19-02-2017, 15:17
Had it plumbed into the system and it is 'outstanding' to nick Oliver's description.
Very difficult to tell it was 'in system', just played a few LP sides, only one small problem of a little hum in the background.
This has now been cured by the addition of one extra electrolytic cap in the PSU section.
There is a high output impedance of 3.4 Kohm, but with short output leads and a high(ish) input impedance of the following amplifier this presents no problems.
I will be investigating a little mod to give a lower output impedance in due course. :)
I don't know exactly what the technical definition of a buffer is but do you think this kit should be sold as such on eBay with that output impedance?
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Firebottle
19-02-2017, 15:41
It's being sold as a tube pre-amp rather than as a buffer.
How much gain does it have? I know buffers technically aren't supposed to have any, but with tubes I've never seen any benefit of using them strictly for impedance matching.
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Firebottle
19-02-2017, 17:05
It's about 15dB Nathan.
I don't know exactly what the technical definition of a buffer is but do you think this kit should be sold as such on eBay with that output impedance?
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It's a bit high for a cathode follower, but as Alan says it will be OK with leads of a reasonable length. Assuming the load impedance is at least 50K, then setting the low-pass -3dB point at 30,000kHz, one could use cables having a typical capacitance of 100pF/m as long as 16m.
15dB gives you more than enough headroom to work with and not have to worry about losing the tone. That's a really interesting piece of gear for less than the cost of making the PCB. I bet it would make an excellent headphone amp with a few tweaks also.
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Firebottle
19-02-2017, 18:50
Agreed on the value, but it certainly doesn't have the drive for headphones.
Firebottle
19-02-2017, 18:52
Agreed on the value, but it certainly doesn't have the drive for headphones.
It's a standard common cathode stage Barry, with a 4.7K anode load.
I should have mentioned I prefer Grados.
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What would be a good cheap power suply for one of these? Thinking of grabing one myself.
What would be a good cheap power suply for one of these? Thinking of grabing one myself.
It says they sell one but I didn't see a link. It takes 12V AC at 1A so finding a transformer shouldn't be hard.
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http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/1A-1000MA-12V-12VA-AC-AC-OUTPUT-MAINS-POWER-ADAPTOR-SUPPLY-CHARGER-TRANSFORMER-/172202492893?hash=item28181183dd%3Ag%3AVWQAAOSw%7E oFXMwjT&_trkparms=pageci%253A0e9faee0-f702-11e6-a175-74dbd1a0a932%257Cparentrq%253A58e1f94a15a0a786f3b1 55c1fff1b98b%257Ciid%253A2
That one should work.
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inside of one like mine unmodded http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-phtRVOWbJbk/TVwqKdbCAVI/AAAAAAAAACs/bgvlSxuJJFw/s1600/stock.jpg
Firebottle
20-02-2017, 07:21
What would be a good cheap power suply for one of these? Thinking of grabing one myself.
The board only needs about 0.4A so it would be better to use a 0.5A transformer.
Depends on the regulation of the transformer and if it is designed for 230V or 240V input, as if the voltage is high, say 13.5V AC then some of the capacitors in the psu section are over run.
If you do get one John I will show you where to connect an extra cap to cure the hum.
:)
Alan your a star, if this power suply is ok ill order both later today
https://www.amazon.co.uk/mercury-AC1205UK-500-Power-Supply/dp/B000KVJFQO/ref=pd_cp_23_1?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=V9RYXVRS68AQ6AWW5R1X
Stryder5
20-02-2017, 13:59
Alan your a star, if this power suply is ok ill order both later today
https://www.amazon.co.uk/mercury-AC1205UK-500-Power-Supply/dp/B000KVJFQO/ref=pd_cp_23_1?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=V9RYXVRS68AQ6AWW5R1X
I have ordered the Tube Buffer, waiting for Alan's OK on the power supply too��
Firebottle
20-02-2017, 14:12
Looks perfect.
Stryder5
20-02-2017, 14:28
Looks perfect.
Thanks A.
Firebottle
20-02-2017, 18:58
I've done a slight re-wire of the board, added 3 components and hey presto - it's a buffer. (I took 2 off as well but that's just detail)
Output impedance is now 250 ohms.
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt97/Paramotorpilot/6J1%20buffer/P1030655.jpg
Now boxed up and in circuit as we listen to the radio:
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt97/Paramotorpilot/6J1%20buffer/P1030656.jpg
Innards:
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt97/Paramotorpilot/6J1%20buffer/P1030657.jpg
It will be trialed on Friday in front of a couple of forumites :)
You could buy two of the boards and use the first as a gain pre-amp followed by a modified one as a buffer on the output :hmm:
Stryder5
20-02-2017, 19:05
I've done a slight re-wire of the board, added 3 components and hey presto - it's a buffer. (I took 2 off as well but that's just detail)
Output impedance is now 250 ohms.
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt97/Paramotorpilot/P1030655.jpg
Now boxed up and in circuit as we listen to the radio:
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt97/Paramotorpilot/P1030656.jpg
Innards:
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt97/Paramotorpilot/P1030657.jpg
It will be trialed on Friday in front of a couple of forumites :)
You could buy two of the boards and use the first as a gain pre-amp followed by a modified one as a buffer on the output :hmm:
I feel accepted "forumite" [emoji847].
Now you tell me I've only ordered one....
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Bigman80
20-02-2017, 19:34
I've done a slight re-wire of the board, added 3 components and hey presto - it's a buffer. (I took 2 off as well but that's just detail)
Output impedance is now 250 ohms.
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt97/Paramotorpilot/P1030655.jpg
Now boxed up and in circuit as we listen to the radio:
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt97/Paramotorpilot/P1030656.jpg
Innards:
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt97/Paramotorpilot/P1030657.jpg
It will be trialed on Friday in front of a couple of forumites :)
You could buy two of the boards and use the first as a gain pre-amp followed by a modified one as a buffer on the output :hmm:
I'm looking forward to hearing this badboy and its looks great boxed up !!!!
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It looks really good.
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Bigman80
20-02-2017, 19:58
It looks really good.
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Knowing Alan it'll sound good too !
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Knowing Alan it'll sound good too !
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I'm sure it will. I ordered some of the bare boards last night to play around with.
Bigman80
20-02-2017, 20:48
awesome, Let us know how you go !.
I will. I've got a lot of oddball tubes that would be perfect to experiment with on them.
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Got mine on order, thanks for all the help. :)
Firebottle
21-02-2017, 08:14
I'll put up a post in The Drawing Board to show how to fit the extra capacitor that removes the low level hum.
:)
See http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?49724-6J1-Pre-amp-modifications-(hum-removal)&p=837164#post837164
Cool. Did you try it with 5654 tubes in it yet?
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Firebottle
21-02-2017, 16:17
Don't have any of those Nathan, so unfortunately no.
They've made a big difference in the Chinese amps with 6J1 tubes that I've messed with. Tube rolling is always a crapshoot though. If you ever need any, I'll mail you some. I have a ton of those.
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Bigman80
21-02-2017, 18:24
They've made a big difference in the Chinese amps with 6J1 tubes that I've messed with. Tube rolling is always a crapshoot though. If you ever need any, I'll mail you some. I have a ton of those.
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I'll google them. Might be of Interest.
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They are pretty cheap.
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Bigman80
21-02-2017, 19:19
They are pretty cheap.
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Thanks !! Tube rolling might become my new hobby lol
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It's an expensive hobby. It's not as bad with the mini-tubes.
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walpurgis
21-02-2017, 19:46
Thanks !! Tube rolling might become my new hobby lol
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You've been quiet about your system lately Oliver. Very suspicious. Are you up to something? :D ;)
Firebottle
21-02-2017, 20:20
He trying to break into valves, and I'm going to help him :eek:
There's never any way back but don't tell Oliver :eyebrows:
An antique Variac with no ground, and electrical tape holding it together turned me back a few times.
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Bigman80
21-02-2017, 21:25
You've been quiet about your system lately Oliver. Very suspicious. Are you up to something? :D ;)
Lol, not really anything to report Geoff. The Mission speakers are sounding so good it's ridiculous. I am looking at adding a tube buffer in (probably this one lol) to sweeten the digital sound and going to swap my silver plate phono cables for the Klotz. There is a "rightness" with the Klotz and I feel the silver plate may be lacking some body. Other than saving up for Tannoys I'm just enjoying the music.
I am Borrowing Alan's latest Valve amp creation as I've never heard one so I'm excited about that too.
The Sony ES gear is faultless in my opinion. So so good.
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