View Full Version : "Linn Abandon CD"
Audiocom AV
24-12-2009, 09:38
Not so shocked to read that Linn have abandoned CD in the January 2010 issue of Hi-Fi News. I quote,
“In the light of falling CD sales and the growing success of its online hi-res downloads, Linn Products has taken the decision to axe CD player production from 2010. Justifying this evolution in its business model, Linn has declared a decrease of some 40% in the volume of its CD player sales over the last two years”.
anthonyTD
24-12-2009, 09:56
Not so shocked to read that Linn have abandoned CD in the January 2010 issue of Hi-Fi News. I quote,
“In the light of falling CD sales and the growing success of its online hi-res downloads, Linn Products has taken the decision to axe CD player production from 2010. Justifying this evolution in its business model, Linn has declared a decrease of some 40% in the volume of its CD player sales over the last two years”.
nice to see you here mark, its been a while!:)
A...
hifi_dave
24-12-2009, 10:00
No doubt spurred on by their lack of CD player sales and the need to promote their on line business. Rega, on the other hand, are ramping up production of their CD players to keep up with demand.
The notion of Rega "ramping up production" tickles me, does this really mean they will be making a few more each week?:lol::lol:
Spectral Morn
24-12-2009, 10:34
From my very humble point of view.....I really don't care what Linn (irrelevant to me) do or don't do. If more companies start doing this, then that interests me and would be cause for concern.
Regards D S D L
Personally I feel that the writing is on the wall for CD players as a mainstream consumer device. IMO CD players will continue to be made in years to come, but in ever smaller amounts, and mostly by the specialist manufacturers using high quality mechanisms sourced from Teac, Cyrus etc.
Then, in maybe 30-50 years time, when CD replay is an 'audiophile only' format, we'll see a resurgence, as we have done with the humble turntable, and as we are seeing with the cassette (I'm waiting to see who will release the first high quality new generation cassette deck. My bet is on Denon).
Most people buy multi-format players (DVD/SACD/CD) nowadays, anyway. ;)
The Vinyl Adventure
24-12-2009, 10:53
I'm not gonna get to much involved in this convo again ... But why play a cd in a mechanical device when the 0 and 1's can be streamed to greater effect for less money...
.. Buy your CDs keep em on a shelf if you like but stream the music .. It means you can remove all the mechanical aspects and relevent issues from a system... The only reason people like CDs must be the act of playing them - taking them out o the pretty case etc... Any other arguament to me is flawed!
I'm gonna go and hide somewhere now I think
.. Buy your CDs keep em on a shelf if you like but stream the music .. It means you can remove all the mechanical aspects and relevent issues from a system... The only reason people like CDs must be the act of playing them - taking them out o the pretty case etc... Any other arguament to me is flawed!
LOL! :eyebrows:
You're right, Hamish, apart from one thing...
When you've got a CD transport which is so massively over-engineered in order to read information on discs with the highest accuracy possible, and in turn reduce error to infinitesimally low levels, undetectable by the human ear, thus achieving 99% of the level of accuracy of streaming the same data, the motivation to invest in a machine to do the latter is virtually non-existent - especially when the combination with its partnering DAC produces a sound which is as good as any streaming set-up I've heard so far ;)
The reason why what you say about the "mechanical aspects" of CDPs adversely affecting performance is true (and it most definitely is true) is because 95% of CDPs made, to date since their inception, weren't sufficiently well-engineered in the first place to take full advantage of the format!
The reality is that there are probably no more than a dozen or so CDPs or standalone transports in the world that were genuinely designed to do the job properly, thus few people have heard what CD is really capable of...
Marco.
StanleyB
24-12-2009, 11:29
You can put your CD collection up for sale, but not your downloads.
How many downloads are available in WAV format by the way?
You can put your CD collection up for sale, but not your downloads.
Indeed. That's another very valid reason for having a 'physical' music collection: large ones are worth a considerable amount of money! 'Faceless' files on a hard-drive are worth bugger all ;)
Marco.
Spectral Morn
24-12-2009, 11:52
LOL! :eyebrows:
You're right, Hamish, apart from one thing...
When you've got a CD transport which is so massively over-engineered in order to read information on discs with the highest accuracy possible, and in turn reduce error to infinitesimally low levels, undetectable by the human ear, thus achieving 99% of the level of accuracy of streaming the same data, the motivation to invest in a machine to do the latter is virtually non-existent - especially when the combination with its partnering DAC produces a sound which is as good as any streaming set-up I've heard so far ;)
The reason why what you say about the "mechanical aspects" of CDPs adversely affecting performance is true (and it most definitely is true) is because 95% of CDPs made, to date since their inception, weren't sufficiently well-engineered in the first place to take full advantage of the format!
The reality is that there are probably no more than a dozen or so CDPs or standalone transports in the world that were genuinely designed to do the job properly, thus few people have heard what CD is really capable of...
Marco.
I was going to say more or less the same thing as Marco, when I read what Hamish wrote earlier.
However I think that there are a few more very good players and transports out there than what Marco suggests.
Any of the Micromega CDM1 mech player/transports or say the Data which uses a Pro2.
The Audiomeca Mephisto (original) then the later 1 and 2 (though getting the lazer mech is not easy should you have a problem)..these were designed by Piere Lurne a TT designer who hated digital, but made/designed some excellent cd players.
Accuphase CD players and transports ....early CDM1 are very good imho.
Pioneer stable platter players.
Marantz CD12,CD94 and probably the CD7.
Esoteric/Teac/Wadia using the top TEAC VRDS laser mechanism.
Early Wadia using CDM1
Sony DAS1 (CDM1 mech) and Sony Scd 1 and 777...amazing mechanism for SACD playback..with mods very good for CD too.
There are more but my mind is going blank at the moment.... Edit CEC excellent transports. Tube Technology Fusion series. Barclay (American company), 47 Labs, Denon made one totally loony CD player once amazing. Oracle CD transports and all in one players. Zanden, Reimyo.
Its about implementation and design of the mechanisms and how various companies used them....whether there was cost cutting or not. The good news is that companies like Audiocom can compensate for cost cutting as long as the mechanism is a good one. Mark can correct me if I am wrong in saying that.
Hamish you need to hear what a brilliant transport sounds like with your copper Dac.
Marco you got any in mind I haven't listed ?
Regards D S D L
Hi Neil,
You're right, I was probably a little conservative in my estimate, but it still represents a tiny fraction of the total amount of CDPs and standalone transports that were made :)
The fact is the massive over-engineering and use of the highest quality components available, particularly transport mechanisms, (employed in some of the designs above) costs serious money and is why it is completely prohibitive in all but the most expensive of CDPs made today, and even then sometimes it's not guaranteed!
I think we have to face up to the fact that the days of truly great (in any way affordable) CDPs are over, which is why if you've got one you need to treasure it for however long it will last.........
Marco.
Spectral Morn
24-12-2009, 12:17
Hi Neil,
You're right, I was probably a little conservative in my estimate, but it still represents a tiny fraction of the total amount of CDPs and standalone transports that were made :)
The fact is the massive over-engineering and use of the highest quality components available (employed in some of the designs above) costs serious money and is why it is completely prohibitive in all but the most expensive of CDPs made today, and even then sometimes it's not guaranteed!
I think we have to face up to the fact that the days of truly great (in any way affordable) CDPs are over, which is why if you've got one you need to treasure it for however long it will last.........
Marco.
You are right there. That is why I have bought so many great CD players and transports over the years....and kept them. This ensures I have the ability to play my CDs for many years to come and to a very high standard.
Regards D S D L
Audiocom AV
24-12-2009, 12:24
nice to see you here mark, its been a while!:)
A...
Thanks Anthony
Have a nice Xmas :cool:
Rare Bird
24-12-2009, 12:49
It's easy.. stock pile your CD collection, FLAC em onto HDD, copy the HDD as back up & bobs yer uncle, no mechanical tripe from your CD player ever again, fast high quality access to your collection.Good thing about streaming files is there's no my dicks bigger than your dick as would be with CD players between people.A Basic streaming system if implimented correctly can sound superb regardless of cost.
Downloads arnt worth a hoot, if they even stood back for a moment & realised MP-3 were tripe that they offer & not to be taken seriously people would buy more that way, but as marco pointed out downloads arnt collections you can own & be proud of..
MP-3 are heavily used as a download media cost there easy & fast to use with portables & greedy people want to save more & more space on their HDD's..
CD are a tricky thing to get rid of as they are so vesritile ie: computors, burning etc etc..or they would have gone some time ago IMHO.
CD are a tricky thing to get rid of as they are so vesritile ie: computors, burning etc etc..or they would have gone some time ago IMHO.
Flash cards and USB sticks have taken over from CD/DVD as a portable data storage medium, and many modern TVs have a USB or flash card input.
The only thing that's keeping silver discs alive as a general consumer format, IMO, is the Christmas/Birthday market. You can't wrap up a download.
Rare Bird
24-12-2009, 13:44
Flash cards and USB sticks have taken over from CD/DVD as a portable data storage medium, and many modern TVs have a USB or flash card input.
Dunno Kris Most software comes in the form of a disc still..Cards & Sticks cost a lot more than a disc.Bootlegers of DVD/CD will require Discs to sell them on.You can burn your CD-r on the pooter, take it over to the CDP on the Hi-fi & just play, you cant take a stick or flash over.Discs are to too easy & cheap..
The Vinyl Adventure
24-12-2009, 14:02
Give it time, we sell 8gb cards in the shop for £25, it's was only 3 years ago you could barely buy a 512mb for that
it is purly down to an industry where CDs are still so much the norm.. At one point 3 1/2 inch floppys (the jokes been made marco) were the norm and what were they 1mb?
Times change, formats come and go, for me the trick is not to get too bogged down or sentimental about them - just use what gives the best sound for you
Rare Bird
24-12-2009, 14:11
Yes Hamish but you will never get em as cheap as recordable discs.Take a DVD for instance 4.7GB are they?..you can get mountains of albums in MP-3 format on one of those for less than 20p..Something will come along but i recon were stuck with Disc for a long time yet.I agree don't get attached, use what you like..I've always like mini disc as there convenient & take some hammer being in a case, sound like CD & can be recorded on both Analogue & digital through cheap portables..My Sony MZ-R900 MD machine is still awesome, all metal construction..
The Vinyl Adventure
24-12-2009, 14:23
Never? Go back 20 odd years Andre and tell me how much hdd's with 1 mb on would have cost
SSD is the future - in one form or another, it won't be long until it's as cheap as discs! I have watched the new huge memory cards cost £250 as they come out! I can remember when a 4gb cf cost one of our customers £250 (plonker) and now it's the 32gb cards that cost that - they will be down to reasonable money in a year! Don't forget these things get bigger exponensialy but the price for the biggest size cards always come down to reasonable levels! There is talk of 1tb sdhc cards, Sony are developing a 1tb duo card when these things come down to reasonable prices in maybe 2-3 years how much do you think a 4gb sd will cost you... How much do you think it actually costs to make a 4gb sd? We buy them at the shop for maybe £5 for a basic one ... I recon they prob cost les than a pound to make now!
Never is a strong word Andre, and with the greatest respec I think you entirely wrong!
Rare Bird
24-12-2009, 14:33
Hi Hamish
Not doubting it but can a card do everything a recordable disc can, i think not & a doubt very much a 5GB card will ever be as cheap as a blank DVD.
Every computer you buy apart from a note pad has a CD/DVD tray for free intergrated, don't have card slots.as mentioned before you can't record on a card/stick & go take it to your CD player & play.You have to look at all the versitility a disc has on offer, for a new thing to take off hifi, computers portable all have to come into line..The computer will always have a disc tray cos people will always want one to play the disc they own..But we'll see, not worth arguing about..
Hi Hamish,
Times change, formats come and go, for me the trick is not to get too bogged down or sentimental about them - just use what gives the best sound for you
I completely agree. Other than enjoying the 'human/interactive' nature of a physical music collection on vinyl or CD, what you describe is exactly my philosophy.
Trust me, I'm not using valves, an ancient (albeit modified) 1989 Sony CDP and DAC, and even more ancient 1960s speakers because of misplaced sentimentality or nostalgia ;)
It's quite simply because my ears tell me that the sound they reproduce is often vastly superior to their modern counterparts!
Therefore I don't give a monkey's bollocks whether the gear I use is brand new and up-to-date or 'legacy hi-fi'; all that matters is what sounds best to my ears.
Similarly, I will never buy equipment to use just because it's purported as the 'latest and greatest' by the hi-fi media, simply to appear as up-to-date or 'trendy', or because convenience is improved. There are far too many people with that mentality around as it is, often with crap sounding systems, and on a never-ending box swapping situation of dissatisfaction (Jerry excluded), as a result!! Any component which makes it into my system (new or old) does so on its sonic merit - nothing else.
Marco.
P.S Andre, stockpiling CDs and records is all well and good, but who's got the space to store 1000s of CDs and records somewhere and also the time to transfer all the music onto a computer? Digitising thousands of records alone would take forever, so count me out dude!
The Vinyl Adventure
24-12-2009, 14:52
Hi Hamish
Not doubting it but can a card do everything a recordable disc can, i think not & a doubt very much a 5GB card will ever be as cheap as a blank DVD.
Every computer you buy apart from a note pad has a CD/DVD tray for free intergrated, don't have card slots.as mentioned before you can't record on a card/stick & go take it to your CD player & play.You have to look at all the versitility a disc has on offer, for a new thing to take off hifi, computers portable all have to come into line..The computer will always have a disc tray cos people will always want one to play the disc they own..But we'll see, not worth arguing about..
the same could be have said for floppy drives ... Both my laptops have sd slots ... I'm not nesasaryly saying sd will become a standard, I'm just saying don't rule out them getting that cheap! SSD drives will replace hdd drives eventually I'm certain of it! In agrement with you though portable ssd in the form of sd cf whatever will unlikely replace cd.. What's the point when download bandwidth is increasing so fast?
Now you could say it's a bleak future- a world with no tangible media ... But try telling that to the Dali lama ... Or gene rodenbury :lolsign: it might not be all the bad!
(il keep ma books though.. I'm not into those "reader" things or "e-books")
Now you could say it's a bleak future- a world with no tangible media ...
That for me would be a very bleak future indeed because we would lose almost all sense of being 'human' and become even more like robots than we are now.... :rolleyes:
Marco (someone who greatly values his 'human-ness' and sees computers as an unfortunate necessary evil in today's society, and who will continue to distance himself from them in all aspects of life wherever possible).
The Vinyl Adventure
24-12-2009, 15:14
I don't think material posesion/desire is always a good thing.. And I'm not sure it is anything other than a western trait, I certainly don't think it is something that makes us human ... But I guess that's a thread for "the art of philosophy" eh :)
Spectral Morn
24-12-2009, 15:20
That for me would be a very bleak future indeed because we would lose almost all sense of being 'human' and become even more like robots than we are now.... :rolleyes:
Marco (someone who greatly values his 'human-ness' and sees computers as an unfortunate necessary evil in today's society, and who will continue to distance himself from them in all aspects of life wherever possible).
I second that.
Regards D S D L
Nice one, Neil :)
Hi Hamish,
I don't think material posesion/desire is always a good thing.. And I'm not sure it is anything other than a western trait, I certainly don't think it is something that makes us human ... But I guess that's a thread for "the art of philosophy" eh
Yep, it's probably one for another thread... Material possession/desire, in the sense you mean it, is not quite what I'm getting at when referring to being human.
Marco.
However I think that there are a few more very good players and transports out there than what Marco suggests....
I've read great things recently about the Avondale Arcam Alpha 5 mod. Would the AAA5 be on that list?
The Vinyl Adventure
24-12-2009, 15:33
Nice one, Neil :)
Hi Hamish,
Yep, it's probably one for another thread... Material possession/desire, in the sense you mean it, is not quite what I'm getting at when referring to being human.
Marco.
i know, I'm just being a tit!
(incase you miss my comment in the gh1000hd thread.. Go have a look! I'm stunned)
Rare Bird
24-12-2009, 16:28
P.S Andre, stockpiling CDs and records is all well and good, but who's got the space to store 1000s of CDs and records somewhere and also the time to transfer all the music onto a computer? Digitising thousands of records alone would take forever
;)
ill keep ma books though.. I'm not into those "reader" things or "e-books"
That's one thing i can't do on a computer is read books, i will opt for buying a real book anyday.
The Vinyl Adventure
24-12-2009, 16:31
Who wants a book that needs a fucking battery... It's a god damn book for crying out loud!
Rare Bird
24-12-2009, 16:34
Who wants a book that needs a fucking battery... It's a god damn book for crying out loud!
What i've never understood with women :lol:
anthonyTD
24-12-2009, 21:28
Thanks Anthony
Have a nice Xmas :cool:
cheers mark,
and the same to you and yours...:)
regards,anthony,TD...
Optical disks are dying. They are not dying because they are not practical or fragile (although they are a bit of the two), but they are dying because :
- they take more space than magnetic disks, and space in today's houses becomes a luxury.
- they are not cheaper anymore: magnetic storage costs almost the same price.
So, optical storage is bound to be limited to death : already, as things go, most software are sold online. No optical storage, nothing. Other content types (music, films) will inevitably follow.
Look, I will give you another example : We already have the technology necessary to auto-stereoscopic displays. They are ready waiting for a market.
But we don't have a single optical media for storing a 2-hour stereoscopic film (about 8 million pixels/image) along with its high-def audio.
Who can imagine that we will invent a brand new optical media ? BD is probably the last one, imho. ;)
sburrell
25-12-2009, 02:31
Who can imagine that we will invent a brand new optical media ? BD is probably the last one, imho.
Hehe, General Electric already invented it: GE unveils holographic disc breakthrough (http://www.gereports.com/ge-unveils-holographic-disc-breakthrough/).
Read about this a while back.
Personally, I'm waiting for analogue storage to come back…
Rare Bird
25-12-2009, 02:32
Dimitri:Going back to Format change
Remember when CD came out in the early 80's, it was like a revolution, people were more than glad to dump their records due to many factors, the shit 80's issues for one put a damper on things to last a lifetime..People loved this new said perfect format complete with commercial advertising garb.. ok people went with it cos anything was better than the shit they had to put up with...Remember this was a total format change from Analogue to Digital, it was a revolutionary change (Lets not forget to enginerers/record companies cashing in ;) ).When did the 12" long player come out was it late 40's! that's 35 years'ish..CD has been on the go for around 25 years ish now with no actual talk of format change only new fangled technology advances, no difinate domination of a new proposed format change...The thing these days there's no revolutional advancements they are playing on digital advancements, Digital, Digital, it's played out, too many fads, they are killing any chance with short lived ideas to even convince the public of anything worth changing for..Sorry CD is here to stay for a good 10 years easy. Just to add people that did actually change formatt in the end wish they hadnt hence going back to vinyl.
Andre, CD is not a format, it is just part of a storage media type (optical).
The problem is that optical media types are declining fast. ;)
So, digital is here to stay, but the optical storage will be dead soon. :eyebrows:
Youngsters download most or all of their music too. Only us dinosaurs use *physical* media and we're a tiny, tiny minority I think.
Those young people who wish to return to physical media will return to records I now think. CD won't totally disappear, but they may have to be played on CD ROM drives in computers in a few years time. the onset of quiet power supplies and lower cost massive memory will probably mean that computers may well become the hub of our audio and video entertainment in future. We may just buy the license and just download when we want from a remote server...
chris@panteg
26-12-2009, 00:59
We may just buy the license and just download when we want from a remote server...
Hi Dave
I think Ivor T predected this back in 1983 , did he not or words to that effect.
We may just buy the license and just download when we want from a remote server...
Effectively this is what Spotify (Premium) is - a subscription service that allows you access to a massive library, though you never physically "own" the data you can play it whenever you want, and store some on your devices (3,333 tracks I think it is).
How long before Spotify TV?
The Vinyl Adventure
26-12-2009, 12:06
Spotify with it's relativly high Kbps is def a glimps into the future I recon .. Roll on higher bandwidth and 1400 Kbps flac streaming
Rare Bird
26-12-2009, 14:02
Providing this is ultra quiet, an outboard DAC & HDD feeding FLAC's via 'Media Monkey' would be superb. I have a Shuttle as a back up, they are lightning fast.
http://us.shuttle.com/x50.aspx
Those Shuttle X50's are tiddlers but touch screen displays are the future, they will do away with Keyboard & mouse..Selecting an album at at finger touch sounds great to me..
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