View Full Version : New Valves for phono stage
Just bought a nice matched pair of NOS Raytheon VT-229s, from 1945, for the phono stage in the Croft:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/921/siIbFk.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/plsiIbFkj)
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/924/0IF1Hz.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/po0IF1Hzj)
Not bad for $115, as these are an early vintage, and top quality...
Just need to wait on them now arriving from the States! :cool:
Marco.
they look nice ..good price too.
farflungstar
22-01-2017, 22:19
Lovely.
Adey
In perpetual pursuit.
Yeah, cool aren't they? Like you say, Grant, a good price... Just wanted to freshen things up a bit on the valve front, and spied these, which tick all the boxes! :cool:
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
23-01-2017, 16:31
I think we use the same output valves on our preamps I think I've got a couple of vintage MUllards plumbed into mine and have some RCA's as well which I haven't tried so this could provide me with a poke to have a try tonight.
Nice one Marco, they should give the Croft a new lease of life.
I think we use the same output valves on our preamps I think I've got a couple of vintage MUllards plumbed into mine and have some RCA's as well which I haven't tried so this could provide me with a poke to have a try tonight.
Yeah, I think you ended up with some Mullard ECC35s, Andy, did you not? They should be top notch! I just grudge spending the sort of money on them that's needed, and prefer to try more 'left-field' options, where SPPV is usually a little higher :)
The RCAs should also be nice. Defo give them a go! :cool:
Marco.
Nice one Marco, they should give the Croft a new lease of life.
Cheers, mate. It's sounding great now, but every few years I like to freshen things up a bit and take a punt on some different NOS varieties :)
Marco.
Cheers, mate. It's sounding great now, but every few years I like to freshen things up a bit and take a punt on some different NOS varieties :)
Marco.
I will be doing something with Croft stuff myself very soon - keep an eye out for a post coming up.:eyebrows:
Cool. I look forward to it, mate :cool:
Marco.
They are rubbish mate. Real pussy boy valves.;)
Can they withstand 900G? My 5R4WGA valves can. Do they work at 60,000 feet?
Check it out: http://www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/frank/sheets/127/5/5R4WGA.pdf
No?:rolleyes:
Keep tryin':D:lol:
Btw, as a small aside, I also replaced the CV449/85A2 voltage regulator valve in the Croft, as part of my 'freshening up' programme. I know that these shouldn't make a difference as, technically, they're not in the signal path, but I always find when rolling them that subtle improvements (or not) can be heard between different types.
So I ordered one of these English Electric ones from Colomor Valves:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/923/S3i1HT.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pnS3i1HTj)
Details here (89 more available, so plenty in stock): http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/370791865665?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Turns out this company has some history and were taken over by GEC in 1968, see here: http://www.radiomuseum.org/dsp_hersteller_detail.cfm?Company_id=8417 The valves themselves are fully NOS, and come beautifully packaged in their original boxes. I suspect that they're 1970s vintage.
Anyway, how do they sound? In a word: wonderful!
In comparison with the NOS Sylvania CV449 I was using beforehand, the English Electric produced a notably more open and 'liquid' midrange, with gorgeous tonal textures and increased detail retrieval. Furthermore, the soundstage/imaging of the Croft seems to have become even more 'widescreen' than before, with music, and particular female vocals, now enveloped in a 'cavernous chasm of clarity', thus increasing their 'intimacy' and believability accordingly.
Honestly, for £6 this is an instantaneous quick, cheap, and very effective tweak for all Croft preamps featuring the use of this particular voltage regulator valve. Highly recommended! :cool:
Marco.
They are rubbish mate. Real pussy boy valves...
As a confirmed "pussy boy" they'll suit me just fine, then! :D
Marco.
As a confirmed "pussy boy" [still got the hairs stuck between my teeth to prove it :eyebrows:] they'll suit me just fine, then! :D
Marco.
She doesn't shave then:D
Why do I have this funny feeling that if I dropped a 5R4WGA rectifier on the floor, glass side down, it'd smash?:D
Probably because it's a big bugger! Rather like the Mullard 5U4G rectifier tubes I use in the Copper amp.
Marco.
Just as a general point there is a good case for buying mil spec valves. Based on my experience, they almost invariably turn out to be very good.
Have the new valves settled in yet Marco, how do they sound?
Lol... They haven't arrived yet, mate. Remember, they're coming from the States :)
Marco.
Lol... They haven't arrived yet, mate. Remember, they're coming from the States :)
Marco.
Forgot:doh:
After much waiting (delay in shipping, and at customs once they'd landed in the UK) the valves arrived today. Got stung for £25 taxes and import duty, but hey-ho, such is life, and for me it still makes what I've paid a billy-bargain, as these are RARE, (very early) vintage tubes, and in near-mint condition. I've seen similar vintage Tung-Sols and Brimars sell for considerably more, and for me these Raytheons are in a similar league.
Although I bought these for use in the Croft's phono stage, I first of all wanted to see what they sounded like in the line stage. So I replaced my current NOS (metal-based) military spec Russian 6N9S Melz [6SL7 equivalents - the most desirable versions too, with the anode holes] with them, which are superb sounding valves, and up until now my favourites in that application.
First impressions were of a very detailed presentation, but definitely not of the 'etched' or bright variety; indeed the tonal balance of these tubes is very well-judged indeed, with no false emphasis I could detect on any part of the frequency range, and as a result possessed no obvious 'sonic signature'.
Therefore, they don't sound 'valvey' or warm, or 'bright and sparkly', but with no finesse or little depth, as is the case with 95% of modern production valves, or like anything else for that matter: they just sound 'right', and thus free from 'edge' or grain. In that respect, I often find the best components, of any description, are those that don't superimpose their sound signature onto all aspects of the music, thus making themselves 'heard' whether you like it or not, rather like that boisterous little boy in your class at school, who loved the sound of his own voice rather too much for his own good!
No, these 1945-vintage VT-229s are rather less uncouth, plying you with their (considerable) charms somewhat more subtly, but very effectively, consequently making your favourites tunes 'get underneath your skin' more by successfully teasing out more emotion from the musical performance, which results in you feeling more 'connected' with the whole listening experience - all of which makes spinning tunes highly enjoyable and musically rewarding.
The Raytheons do that simply by virtue of the effortless and highly revealing way they go about their job of processing the music signal, without imbuing it with any obvious form of coloration, sounding suitably 'wide-open' and expansive, so as to make all forms of music sound believable, and associated voices and instruments dynamic and lifelike.
As good as the previous Russian tubes were, these VT-229s are in a different league, sonically and musically, and display all the characteristics I've grown to appreciate over the years from the best NOS varieties, and so have now taken up permanent residence in Croft, performing the task of line duties. Highly recommended, if you can find some! :cool:
I will try them in the phono stage next and see how they compare with the smoked glass NOS RCAs (of a similar vintage), currently in there, and report back. If they're better than those too, then I'll have a real dilemma on my hands!! :eek:
Marco.
walpurgis
14-02-2017, 00:00
Nice result Marco. It's always fun experimenting with valves, they certainly do vary in character.
I'm thinking of resurrecting my valve amplification. Not used it for a long time :).
Cheers, mate. You defo should.
I've yet to hear any SS gear (as good as it can be sometimes) usurp my valve kit. However, this experience with the Raytheons has certainly hammered how just how much better the best NOS varieties are compared with their modern counterparts, which quite simply, sound broken in comparison...
This is one area of audio where I can confidently say: 'They don't make 'em like they used to'! :)
Marco.
walpurgis
14-02-2017, 00:12
Funny you should say that really. I stopped using the valves 'cos the Class A + TVC simply sounded 'right' with the Tannoys. But a revisit can't hurt!
Revisits can sometimes be revealing and rather rewarding... :)
However, just go with what you think works best. I'm not 'married' to one way of doing things, by any means. It's just that *so far* in my listening experience, valves done well outperforms SS done well - but I do 'go the extra mile' [somewhat an understatement] with valves and associated equipment, in order to get the best possible sound.
Both the Croft and Copper amp are the result of years of tweaking and fine-tuning. Neither is remotely a standard commercial product!
Marco.
Good call on the valves Marco, glad they hit the spot and brought something new and worthwhile to your amplification.
Nice how you can have fun with valves and experience different flavours and emotions. Certainly can't do that with SS amps!:)
Just when you think you have got the best out of you kit it's a nice surprise to find something that can lift your listening pleasure and give you a different flavour of what you already have if you know what I mean.:cool:
Exactly, mate. It's all part of the fun! :cool:
Marco.
Btw, as a small aside, I also replaced the CV449/85A2 voltage regulator valve in the Croft, as part of my 'freshening up' programme. I know that these shouldn't make a difference as, technically, they're not in the signal path, but I always find when rolling them that subtle improvements (or not) can be heard between different types.
So I ordered one of these English Electric ones from Colomor Valves:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/923/S3i1HT.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pnS3i1HTj)
Details here (89 more available, so plenty in stock): http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/370791865665?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Turns out this company has some history and were taken over by GEC in 1968, see here: http://www.radiomuseum.org/dsp_hersteller_detail.cfm?Company_id=8417 The valves themselves are fully NOS, and come beautifully packaged in their original boxes. I suspect that they're 1970s vintage.
Anyway, how do they sound? In a word: wonderful!
In comparison with the NOS Sylvania CV449 I was using beforehand, the English Electric produced a notably more open and 'liquid' midrange, with gorgeous tonal textures and increased detail retrieval. Furthermore, the soundstage/imaging of the Croft seems to have become even more 'widescreen' than before, with music, and particular female vocals, now enveloped in a 'cavernous chasm of clarity', thus increasing their 'intimacy' and believability accordingly.
Honestly, for £6 this is an instantaneous quick, cheap, and very effective tweak for all Croft preamps featuring the use of this particular voltage regulator valve. Highly recommended! :cool:
Marco.
Hey Marco,
Nice heads up, just ordered a pair to try, I have tried a few 85A2's and briefly spoke about them with Glenn last year (around July I think), he then sent me a pair of Tesla 85A2 which I thought were just ok. I've personally found that the regular Mullard 85A2 are just great.
Hi Manny,
No worries, mate. Those little regulator valves do make a difference, sonically, and the English Electric one is the best I've heard so far. Let me know what you think when yours arrives.
Interestingly, since you've bumped this thread, I've just won a nice matched pair of pretty rare NOS La Radiotechnique ECC83, from 1959, one of which will be used in the Croft's power supply:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/922/UKr3TP.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pmUKr3TPj)
As you can see they've been measured on the seller's valve tester, and they're not only matched, in terms of output, but both have perfectly balanced triodes! Hard to find like that. Not the cheapest at £190 for the pair, however, but these are top-notch and amongst some of the best ECC83/12AX7s available.
La Radiotechnique was the French arm of Philips Holland, who also owned Amperex and Mullard. Therefore, these tubes have a plate structure similar to Amperex Bugle Boys, which are renowned in tube circles, but many consider the RTs as superior (and rarer). These ones were released by the French Army, where aside from being tested, have been sat at the seller's premises since 1959 - and now they're winging their way to me! :yay:
Marco.
When you say power supply, you do mean the regulation stage? My X uses pairs of 85A2 & ECC83, I've rolled many and the Mullard M8137 pair are sonically perfect for me, and replaced Tesla E83CC.
When you say power supply, you do mean the regulation stage? My X uses pairs of 85A2 & ECC83, I've rolled many and the Mullard M8137 pair are sonically perfect for me, and replaced Tesla E83CC.
I think the 85A2 is voltage regulation tube?
The Amperex Bugle Boy are almost unobtainable and the ones I did find were all fakes.
I think the 85A2 is voltage regulation tube?
It is, my preamp is octal based. It uses a pair of 85A2's and a pair of ECC83's in the regulation stage
You got a good deal on those. You have to be careful buying from the dealers here. Some of them are only rare on eBay. Those are good valves.
Sent from my Z981 using Tapatalk
When you say power supply, you do mean the regulation stage? My X uses pairs of 85A2 & ECC83, I've rolled many and the Mullard M8137 pair are sonically perfect for me, and replaced Tesla E83CC.
Yes, exactly that :)
I too have rolled more tubes than Easter eggs down the hill at the local park! :D It's always a learning curve though, and there are few I've always wanted to try but couldn't find, and these French chaps were amongst that, especially when I spied a matched pair with balanced triodes, both of which make a significant difference to the sound achieved.
I also rate the M8137 and Tesla, as I've used both before, so we'll see what the RTs bring to the equation, hopefully blending nicely with my recently purchased Raytheon VT-229s! :cool:
Marco.
The Amperex Bugle Boy are almost unobtainable and the ones I did find were all fakes.
Yes, that's the big problem with BBs, and I've had a few duds. The RTs, however, have a similar construction and pedigree, and are touted as possessing that lovely 'airy' top-end, wide-open midrange and huge soundstage of the BBs, so we'll see :)
Marco.
You got a good deal on those. You have to be careful buying from the dealers here. Some of them are only rare on eBay. Those are good valves.
Don't get what you mean by that, Nathan... :scratch:
But yes, I did get a good deal , especially as I forgot I made an offer on them for £170 (equivalent in US Dollars), which was accepted! The seller is also based in Germany, so no import taxes due and quick delivery. They should be here for the middle of next week :)
Marco.
The dealers in the US. There are a lot on eBay, and tube sites that I see listed as rare that are relatively easy to find.
I don't see those Raytheon ones often, and definitely not in matched pairs.
Sent from my Z981 using Tapatalk
Ah I see... You mean La Radiotechnique - or are you referring to the VT-229s I bought before?
I'll always use quality NOS tubes in my amps, as the best of them sonically piss all over the current production variety, so much so that it's not funny! Good ones also last much longer.
Also, if possible I'll always choose military spec 1950s vintage ECC83/12AX7s and 1940s vintage 6SL/6SN7s, as the earliest varieties of a particular tube invariably sound best. By the 1970s, solid-state devices started to dominate, thus demand for tubes fell, and with it so did quality.
Marco.
I was talking about the VT-229s. I always use the NOS ones too, but I have a stockpile acquired from retired repairmen. I never use the really expensive ones in any of my personal stuff. I'll put them in someone else's if they want. I usually end up trading them for stuff I want with other people around town. I think the prices some of those things go for on eBay are insane, and I wouldn't feel right selling them for those prices. I've been burned on eBay so many times I don't like selling anything on there anymore. FedEx managed to take the transformers off a tube amp without opening the box once according to the buyer.
Sent from my Z981 using Tapatalk
You got a good deal on those. You have to be careful buying from the dealers here. Some of them are only rare on eBay. Those are good valves.
Sent from my Z981 using Tapatalk
Thanks for sharing, I have concluded the same. Your experience on eBay is sadly common where folk are taking advantage of the protection afforded by PayPal.
There are some specific tubes I've been searching for a number of years - and I've only seen on eBay USA, perhaps you can help?
In regards to prices some tubes fetch, I and I'm sure most here feel it's incongruous to what we do, there were some UK dealers now long retired who didn't subscribe to this, I spoke with them personally and it was refreshing to hear that these are merely components in a circuit and nothing more. But those guys are long gone and so are those views.
Thanks for sharing, I have concluded the same. Your experience on eBay is sadly common where folk are taking advantage of the protection afforded by PayPal.
There are some specific tubes I've been searching for a number of years - and I've only seen on eBay USA, perhaps you can help?
In regards to prices some tubes fetch, I and I'm sure most here feel it's incongruous to what we do, there were some UK dealers now long retired who didn't subscribe to this, I spoke with them personally and it was refreshing to hear that these are merely components in a circuit and nothing more. But those guys are long gone and so are those views.
If you need something, I'm happy to look. I have more than I'll ever use, and know several other local people who do as well.
For the most part I think tubes are tubes as long as you're using quality ones. Some of the ones they sell as rare are just common tubes with another manufacturer's name printed on them. There are some tubes that are worth the premium. They are just part of a circuit, but sometimes the perfect circuit doesn't make the best sound. Some are more durable.
Cheers Nathan, that would really help. The exact type I'm looking for I've posted here:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?49982-Wtd-NOS-Tung-Sol-JAN-CTL-6SU7GTY-black-glass-matched-pair
And likewise if there are some you're interested in then I'd be happy to help
Nearly forgot there are some others - I'll PM you
I was talking about the VT-229s. I always use the NOS ones too, but I have a stockpile acquired from retired repairmen. I never use the really expensive ones in any of my personal stuff. I'll put them in someone else's if they want. I usually end up trading them for stuff I want with other people around town. I think the prices some of those things go for on eBay are insane, and I wouldn't feel right selling them for those prices. I've been burned on eBay so many times I don't like selling anything on there anymore. FedEx managed to take the transformers off a tube amp without opening the box once according to the buyer.
In terms of the stockpile, nice one, you're lucky! I also know what you mean about crazy prices for NOS tubes on ebay... Fortunately, I've got enough experience now to be able to sift through the dross and overpriced rip-offs, and cherry-pick the gems, which *are* still available, such as the Raytheons and RTs I've obtained recently.
I also enjoy finding such stuff and using top-notch tubes that are unusual/rare, especially when 95% of the time they sound superb. Virtually no part of my system is bog standard or 'off the shelf', and I rather like that, as I hate having the same things as every other Tom, Dick or Harry.
That's just me though, and it's as big a part of many other aspects of my life, as it is my hi-fi exploits! :cool:
Marco.
The stockpile has way too many rectifiers. I don't know what I'll ever do with all of those.
The 6V6GT is becoming the oddball tube nobody is using anymore, and it's one of my favorites. I like using the encased ones that look like solid state rectifiers too. Nobody ever recognizes those anymore.
Sent from my Z981 using Tapatalk
The stockpile has way too many rectifiers. I don't know what I'll ever do with all of those.
If you've got any nice GZ34s going for a good price, let me know! :)
Marco.
Cheers Nathan, that would really help. The exact type I'm looking for I've posted here:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?49982-Wtd-NOS-Tung-Sol-JAN-CTL-6SU7GTY-black-glass-matched-pair
And likewise if there are some you're interested in then I'd be happy to help
Nearly forgot there are some others - I'll PM you
I know I have quite a few of the Sylvania version. I'll have to check on the Tung-Sols. I might have them.
If you've got any nice GZ34s going for a good price, let me know! :)
Marco.
I'm positive I have some of those. Are you putting them in a guitar amp, or a HiFi setup.
Which do you think, lol? I ain't no musician! :eyebrows:
Anyway, PM me and let me know what you have. Cheers :)
Marco.
Well, the NOS La Radiotechnique ECC83s arrived today, beautifully packed and in perfect condition. So I've just popped one into the Croft.... All I can say at the moment is OMG!! :wow: :stalks: :eek: :eek:
More later, as I get fully used to the sound of the RTs, but I can tell you right now, these babies are veritable game-changers!
Marco.
Looking forward to reading how you find these Marco, especially in comparison to the M8137, which are dynamic and remain my preference so far.
Hi Manny,
I'll go into more detail when I get a chance, but quite honestly, the RTs are in an entirely different league, sonically, to ANY other ECC83s I've heard so far (and I've tried most of them), M8137s included!
I've never heard anything like it, from just one small valve - STUNNING...... :eek: :eek:
Marco.
julesd68
10-06-2017, 15:38
Hi Marco,
How are you getting on with the Radiotechnique tubes?
Are you just as pleased with them now as when you got them?
cheers.
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