Thorens modded spring bounce issue quest...

[tlscapital]

Continuously finishing (if ever...) the tweaks, mods and conversion on my Thorens TD160 'Super' (bought as but turned to be that only on the outside), actually was a TD146 now fitted with a 220VAC motor just like a TD145, I did notice that the platter doesn't bounce as it used to. Never did I calculate the 15 seconds bounce thing but I do remember that it was indeed bouncier.

Now, to get the platter horizontal to the top plate with the close to 6 mm and/or between 5 to 7 mm gap, is no issue. But to still get a bounce, is rather problematical or impossible I now find. I've read this and that there about such to no avail I'm afraid.

To understand the tweaks and conversions that might affect the "balance" here; I've chromed the platter and swapped the original thick rubber mat for 4 thiner and lighter mats, so all in all not much extra weight in comparison to the original caliber. On the SME 3009 tonearm the conversion from 'Improved' with fixed headshell to heavier mass with detachable headshell. The extra weight on the tonearm should be close to 50 grams or so. So nothing big !?

So indeed the whole sub-platter mass is carrying a little more than before. I've checked under the platter and the tonearm replaced thick and rigid cable is not obstructing the sub-platter move at all. The spring near the tonearm even bounces easily and is the one that is way less stiffer than the other two springs that requires more work to adjust in height but then to no bounce !

Last but not least, I've also since removed the foam from the springs that only got rid of some of the muffled sound to bring a bit too much sibilance. That I could foresee later but wanted an enlightened opinion on my lack of bounce issue here. Should I try new springs ? Or what ?

[Paul-H]

Hi

No expert but on my 160 I have just fitted a new spring set front Vinyl Nirvana.

In my case the platter gap is set to 6mm all round with cork/rubber mat, LP and LP weight installed.

I don't get the 15 second bounce, but get close to 10 seconds.

All three springs are of equal strength if you have one different from the other two, I would suspect an issue as all 3 should be the same.

Paul

[tlscapital]

Hi

No expert but on my 160 I have just fitted a new spring set front Vinyl Nirvana.

In my case the platter gap is set to 6mm all round with cork/rubber mat, LP and LP weight installed.

I don't get the 15 second bounce, but get close to 10 seconds.

All three springs are of equal strength if you have one different from the other two, I would suspect an issue as all 3 should be the same.

Paul

Cheers for that Paul, but in comparison sound wise is the replacement "in your face" ? Like it was actually necessary... Tim

[Paul-H]

It's like most if not all the mods I have done

Solid MDF Base, hi quality interconnects, solid turntable mat, genuine thorens belt

Not heard a single improvement with any of them, the springs did improve the bounce but not the sound.

I accept it might be me not being able to hear the improvements, it might also be because there is no improvement.

No one likes to admit they waisted their money do they ;)

Trouble is if something is 99% right in the first place it might cost a fortune trying to get that illusive 1%.

Paul

Willing to admit I am an audiophool. Also happy to say I am happy with the sound my 40 year old turntable produces through my 30 year old Amp and speakers.

But then again if I was to buy today's equivalent Thorens TT it would cost over 2 grand so I should be happy shouldn't I.


Was going to replace them all until I had an inheritance stolen of me, last year, but now appreciate just how good they all sound, well to my ears, which is what matters.

Paul

[Arkless Electronics]

You will need to rotate the bottom rubber bits that the springs sit on to get the bounce right ;) Don't fret over 10 or 15 second whatever bounce though!
Oh and make sure the arm cable is correctly dressed. If it is pulling on the subchassis this will wreck the bounce,

[tlscapital]

OK folks, after closer inspection inside-out the turntable I understood that somehow the "gap" in the home made thick solid bleech-wood plinth for the sub-platter near the spring close to the motor was too "tight" not allowing enough free movement for the spring and sub-platter. A quick wood-knife cut here and there and it came back to normal ! Thanks for that. Now I do get that better bounce and the sound is "open" once again.

I still don't get the 15 seconds bounce, but rather almost 10 seconds and will precisely set them a bit later. But just before that, in a state of "emergency/panic", I was lurking here and there for new springs and found some newly made springs for Thorens (and not by) ranging from $50 to $200 !!! Anyone ever tried "higher end" expensive springs to compare if ever ?

[tlscapital]

Honestly Paul, I started my mods and conversions a year and a half ago. Did them one by one to measure each and every one on a tight budget with little money. Even if one can admit that plenty little money is big money in the end... Not mentioning the tweaks off course, the only one I could not find any benefit in is the dampening of the sub-chassis ! Every other ones I've done did change and improve IMO my sound (hopefully).

One I haven't done is switch to RCA's connector on my SME tonearm (even if I bought them as a precaution = $ wasted) as everybody recommend. Practical it is, coherent likely less I understood. So I've kept the original connectors and solder a new thick and rigid cable that is causing a lot of hassle to the solders and so I've built a rigidified "headshell" that is filled with "hot glue". Believe me that and only that dampened the sound instantly. Too much for me and just right for the guests who might not be acustom to so much clarity in sound and "airy" sound.

So lately, I've just test the springs without the foam as manies seem to do and I've gotten back my open sound ! So a totally different experience than yours. I'm no tech geek or audio nerd, I collect my old 45's since a teen and decide to render them justice with a phono that will bring the best out of them on my ear terms. No Hi-Fi but Ri(ght)-Fi guy and new to all those inside a turntable issues at 46 years old... Cheers. Tim

[tlscapital]

You will need to rotate the bottom rubber bits that the springs sit on to get the bounce right ;) Don't fret over 10 or 15 second whatever bounce though!
Oh and make sure the arm cable is correctly dressed. If it is pulling on the subchassis this will wreck the bounce,


Hi Jez, all check, double check there and arm cable is long and curly inside the turntable to allow enough movement. It's anew thick, and rigid cable so it's held to and inside the plinth with an "harness" near it's exit. So all good there. Cheers, Tim

[system7]

I used to have the Thorens TD160 along with a few other turntables. And like you, I fiddled with damping sponges and all that stuff. I think I even tried rubbery carbody underseal on the lively metal chassis.

Motor rumble coming through the speakers was always a constant.

The main problem was always acoustic and footfall feedback to the tonearm, especially bass. Plastic lids and mounting on massive slabs made it variously better or worse.

But the best trick was to mount the turntable and even the amplification on shelves screwed to the wall, away from that bouncy floor that the speakers are sitting on.

I even went as far as putting the turntable in another room. It then went effortlessly loud without distortion.

[tlscapital]

I used to have the Thorens TD160 along with a few other turntables. And like you, I fiddled with damping sponges and all that stuff. I think I even tried rubbery carbody underseal on the lively metal chassis.

Motor rumble coming through the speakers was always a constant.

The main problem was always acoustic and footfall feedback to the tonearm, especially bass. Plastic lids and mounting on massive slabs made it variously better or worse.

But the best trick was to mount the turntable and even the amplification on shelves screwed to the wall, away from that bouncy floor that the speakers are sitting on.

I even went as far as putting the turntable in another room. It then went effortlessly loud without distortion.

Hi Steve, YES and yes again. Bit by bit, with time, work, effort, understanding and experimenting, I'm doing almost all those step by step. I already have my "tailor" made phono wood "cabinet" standing on metal feet. Now, I have a "tailor" made heavy-duty steel wall mount in the final stage of it's making to receive the phono "cabinet" on. This will be installed in my music room soon to be (45 meter square !) also in it's final stage. It's in the basement (already mechanically ventilated) totally sound proof (double layer of wall and ceiling with air gap) and isolated sonically à la British covered with recycled industrial "event" carpet on walls and ceiling and a linoleum floor. A delight for sour eyes and ears. All sound adjustment will be made with furnitures and panels if needed to be. The speakers will be sitting on solid fixed stands with some layers of marble plate on top of them. Distance between the speakers on phono will be 5 meters in an equilateral triangle position. I'll report when I'm there. Cheers, Tim

[Paul-H]

A wall mount is one of the things I do need

I live in an old Edwardian property where the floor and ceiling slopes from one end to the other by about 18 inches, all the walls apart from one are lath and plaster, fortunately the one brick wall is the right place for my turntable, just got to convince SWMBO that it's an important item that I must have ;)

Paul

[DSJR]

Have you got the bounce sorted yet?

If you've moved the springs on the grommets you'll have to up-end and totally re-fit the springs before starting again, as the locating grommets aren't as deep as Linn ones for example and the springs don't self-locate as easily I remember. My own recommendation for mats used to be a heavier rubber one as fitted to the 160 Super as the deck can sound wishy-washy with a lighter mat 'system,' but obviously this is personal taste.

If you remove the mat and align the platter keyhole up with the left hand side, you should see a hole in the top plate and a corresponding hole in the sub-chassis (not there on original 160's). The bottom washer on the springs takes the form of a tapered cam-washer and the idea is to hold the levelling nut in place while gently rotating the cam washer to centre the suspension as best as possible. This should be done with tonearm exit cables removed and if you're inexperienced, it takes a while. the suspension should then have a pretty good piston bounce - we used to remove the foam inners in the springs with some fine long-nosed pliers, but I'm not so sure now that this is a good idea as it helps instability rather than 'curing' anything, but that's just me.

The 160 was really designed for the SME 'Improved' models and you may actually make the sound worse with the previous massy arm, I don't know. The limitation will always be the Thorens I'm afraid, as even the Super version was barely a Rega 3/R200 in musical terms, let alone an LP12 competitor. The fixed head SME with something like an AT120E or 440MLb would be a fresh and lively sonic match - just saying and apologies if it's not what you want to hear....

lastly, the tonearm cables can be a royal pain on springy belt drives like this one. SME's cables got flexible then stiffer again and it's vital that you get the suspension right without the cables, then fit them and dress so that they don't impede what the suspension's doing. There's a neat exit clamp on most 160's and siblings and if you're careful, it should be possible to correctly dress these cables. SME did later on, make a flexible adaptor cable to aid setting up on this type of deck, but again, the cable should in my opinion pass through the cable clamp to isolate the sub chassis from exterior influence.

[tlscapital]

Have you got the bounce sorted yet?

If you've moved the springs on the grommets you'll have to up-end and totally re-fit the springs before starting again, as the locating grommets aren't as deep as Linn ones for example and the springs don't self-locate as easily I remember. My own recommendation for mats used to be a heavier rubber one as fitted to the 160 Super as the deck can sound wishy-washy with a lighter mat 'system,' but obviously this is personal taste.

If you remove the mat and align the platter keyhole up with the left hand side, you should see a hole in the top plate and a corresponding hole in the sub-chassis (not there on original 160's). The bottom washer on the springs takes the form of a tapered cam-washer and the idea is to hold the levelling nut in place while gently rotating the cam washer to centre the suspension as best as possible. This should be done with tonearm exit cables removed and if you're inexperienced, it takes a while. the suspension should then have a pretty good piston bounce - we used to remove the foam inners in the springs with some fine long-nosed pliers, but I'm not so sure now that this is a good idea as it helps instability rather than 'curing' anything, but that's just me.

The 160 was really designed for the SME 'Improved' models and you may actually make the sound worse with the previous massy arm, I don't know. The limitation will always be the Thorens I'm afraid, as even the Super version was barely a Rega 3/R200 in musical terms, let alone an LP12 competitor. The fixed head SME with something like an AT120E or 440MLb would be a fresh and lively sonic match - just saying and apologies if it's not what you want to hear....

lastly, the tonearm cables can be a royal pain on springy belt drives like this one. SME's cables got flexible then stiffer again and it's vital that you get the suspension right without the cables, then fit them and dress so that they don't impede what the suspension's doing. There's a neat exit clamp on most 160's and siblings and if you're careful, it should be possible to correctly dress these cables. SME did later on, make a flexible adaptor cable to aid setting up on this type of deck, but again, the cable should in my opinion pass through the cable clamp to isolate the sub chassis from exterior influence.

Hi David, I've got my "original" bounce back. Now I will have to do a full re-calibration of the springs. I'll do that when I'll re-skin the now totally tweaked Thorens and SME. It's actually "naked" without it's top-plate. I'll do the finish of the plinth; laker layers, sanding and wood coloration tint all together when I'll fit anew stainless steel tailor made top-plate on it.

Initially I bought it as a TD160 'Super' fitted with an SME 'Improved' to be able to run with my Denon DL-102 MONO cartridge, to fair result I did find then. I understood after a while that I could do better and improve this set-up and started to venture into the SME world and the Thorens one. At first I couldn't figure what kind of hybrid is/was my Thorens. Fairly well done, it was actually a hybrid TD160 'Super' only on the outside and a 146 inside.

Now it's a 146 sub-platter (resin 7mm bearing) and sub-chassis and chassis. It runs with a 145 motor (triangle 220 VAC resin clutch pulley) and anew PCB driver. The SME is dampened inside and converted into a heavy mass one. So I decided to add some more mass and height to the matts for all in all a much better read from my Denon DL-102 cartridge. I would call my tweaks, mods and converts real improvements even if not all very "orthodox" or "by the book". But otherwise I agree with you, the TD160 'Super' with the SME 'Improved' and certain cartridge could be a good match but it was not what I was after.

And I'm getting there; where I wanted that is. I love the fact that both the Thorens turntables tonearms and the SME are evolutive and can be creative as well. The switch to belt drive with suspended chassis I did some 5 years ago is something I could never have thought I'd do. From this day on, nothing else for me. The turntable I'd wish for is the one in progress I have home presently. SMILE...

Cheers, Tim

[Paul-H]

Hi all

A quick question (I Hope)

Anyone know what the maximum travel of the sprung chassis/Platter should be. Max to Min

I am seeing about 4 to 5mm movement at the armboard, measuring from fully compressed to fully lifted, does this sound right or should there be more movement.

Thanks

Paul