System sounding too "digital" - would one of these be a good upgrade??

[Gazjam]

http://www.epinions.com/content_312424107652

Any thoughts?
A guy I PM bought one for his 7520 and said its a bigger improvement than upgrading to the Wolfsen Dac chip.

Sounds interesting?

[Rare Bird]

i bought one just made my CDP louder & worsen the situation.

[lovejoy]

IME these things are extremely system dependent. I've heard them make improvements in depth and warmth between CD players and amps, and I've heard them masking detail and ruining timing in other systems. I believe that what these things achieve is to match the impedance between your source and amps so it stands to reason that these things could be a benefit on sources where the analogue output stage has been designed down to a cost, or on budget amps.

Definitely a case of suck it and see, but I'd be inclined to say that there's probably a problem somewhere else in the system if it's been regarded as a bigger upgrade than a Wolfson DAC chip.

[lovejoy]

I know what you mean about your system sounding too digital though Gaz. I'm currently going through the same thing. Everything's sounded fantastic up until the last week or so, then all of a sudden there's this horrible digital glare to everything.

I spent a couple of hours yesterday changing cables around which have helped, but then I suddenly remembered that I went through the exact same thing when we had a cold snap last year and have come to the conclusion that it's being affected by the current weather conditions. I guess a music room in a ground floor extension with a flat roof is just not the best place in terms of acoustics and keeping the system sounding consistently good.

[Themis]

I don't know about this. I have a Burson Buffer, but it is very transparent : so the only difference is that it makes my source +3dB louder.

But, still, it seems it depends on the amplifier. I keep mine (as Rich says) for emergency cases when I test budget amps or sources.

[Ali Tait]

Buy a valve amp! :eyebrows:

[leo]

Just my opinion but I'd try and find the source behind the problem rather than use a device to mask it Gaz, its better in the long run rather than making do with a band aid mate:)

[roob]

Looks like a better dac is called for.

[StanleyB]

I spent a couple of hours yesterday changing cables around which have helped, but then I suddenly remembered that I went through the exact same thing when we had a cold snap last year and have come to the conclusion that it's being affected by the current weather conditions.
Indeed so. Audio equipment tend to only sound good once they have reached a certain operational temperature. In cold weather that can take ages or never. Paper speaker cones are the ones I notice it from most severely.

The TC-7520 and Caiman have a circuitry to keep the DAC in a kind of pre-warmed up condition. But this only works if the DAC is not switched off from the mains.

[Ali Tait]

Agree with Leo,but if you want to try one,I have one of these-

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Class-A-Valve-Buffer-Amp-Amplifier-6N11-6DJ8-6922-ECC88_W0QQitemZ250546880058QQcmdZViewItemQQptZVint age_Electronics_R2?hash=item3a55c1fe3a

Yours for £25 delivered if you want it,or come and pick it up for 20!

[leo]

Looks like a better dac is called for.


It could be any other part of the chain, digital sounding can be caused from a lot of things , I've heard some vinyl set ups I thought gave a digital sort of signature

[Gazjam]

Actually the titles a wee bit misleadingl my systems sounding OK actually...its just that someone had mentioned this thing as a solution to HIS system sounding too digital and he found it better than the Wolfsen Dac upgrade....

wasnt sure about THAT one...which is why I posted.
:)

[leo]

I'd imagine it would add much more signature than say the dac chip, it would be down to personal taste if this would actually be better or worse

[Themis]

Well, as it specs, it definitely adds much more distortion... so it's quite possible it adds more signature. ;)

[leo]

Well, as it specs, it definitely adds much more distortion... so it's quite possible it adds more signature. ;)

:whistle:

[Themis]

:sofa:

[Gazjam]

Think I have my answer.....:)

[DSJR]

Another opinion... Why do you think it's the front end?

Unless you've tweaked or changed them, I'd look at the WTF 5* AE109's, which were pretty horrible technically and in sound too - treble set 5db down in a shelf (not smoothly rolling off), giving a hard and slightly squawky mid and "dead" treble performance to balance out the harshness of the fave A400 and PM66 KI Sig with CD63KI CD player...

A don't want to suggest more at this point, but I, like many of my clients, have sometimes looked at the wrong end of a system to be at fault and I very much doubt the 640 A/C pair are the main problem. I mean, it appears that you've added a DAC to "improve" things when it has actually made things worse perhaps???

If I'm totally off the track here, I apologise, but if you do have standard AE109's, take Uncle Dave's advice and sell em pronto. Some cheap Rega Jura's will answer most if not all of your probs for a couple of hundred quid on the used market..... and I can advise on sensible and not wanky tweaks for them as well...:)

[Gazjam]

Thanks Dave,
no just the Stock AE109s...love to change 'em for a set of Rega R3's...or Juras!

I REALLY need to update my Sig...Im running the Squeezebox playing FLAC through a Beresford Dac into my 640A and AE109's...

Funnily enough..when I bought them I paired them with the A400!
Still have that WTF review clipping somewhere....

[Rare Bird]

I used to have 'AE109' at one point.I though they were ok with the right amp, i did rebuild the crossovers tho....

[Gazjam]

Andre, what did you do with the crossovers...?
If you can recall, or maybe point to a link anywhere that'd be great.

[Ali Tait]

I'd guess he probably exchanged all the components for better quality ones.A good way to start is with the caps.I note Hi-fi Collective have started selling ClarityCaps in the hard-to-get values you often get in crossovers.A really good way to improve a tired crossover.Ask Marco!

[Rare Bird]

Yes complete parts replacement, most low/mid range speakers are full of cheap shit parts & wire.Real sound barriers.All parts were kept out of the stupid price bracket

I used:
Jantzen Cross Coil Foil Inductors (Geortz are as good)
Kimber Kap metalized Polypropelene Capacitors
Caddock MP-930 Metal film power resistors
Kimber TXC Wire.

The Jantzen Inductors are available in Silver foil but would be silly paying so much for this particular speaker, same with the wire, stuck with copper instead of silver, i think Copper sounds better anyway..The results were transformation, took the speakers to another level..Please note that these inductors are very big compared to original so have to be carefully placed..I think i made a two deck board allowing me to fit in as originally mounted.Speaker terminals were J.A Michell.

http://www.jantzen-audio.com/index.html

http://www.caddock.com/Online_catalog/Mrktg_Lit/MP9000_Series.pdf

http://www.russandrews.com/static/KIMBER_Kaps.html

http://www.russandrews.com/product.asp?lookup=1&region=UK&currency=GBP&pf_id=2000&customer_id=PAA2409127309974EHJBTBVQYOBWWEJQ

http://www.michell-engineering.co.uk/audio_accessories.html#term

http://store.haveinc.com/p-53116-wonder-solder-signature-solid-fat-050-16ga-1lb-spool.aspx

[DSJR]

IMO, the AE109's don't warrant having loads spent on them when a far superior sound can be had from used Juras at £200 - £250 or so.

The easiest thing to do is carefully remove the crossover, which may be on the back of the terminal block and look at the resistor feeding the tweeter. I suspect it's something like 5 Ohms or so. if it is, replace it with a 1.2 Ohm one approx (the exact value depends on taste and a good reference with which to compare it...)

Hope this helps...

[Rare Bird]

IMO, the AE109's don't warrant having loads spent on them when a far superior sound can be had from used Juras at £200 - £250 or so.

The easiest thing to do is carefully remove the crossover, which may be on the back of the terminal block and look at the resistor feeding the tweeter. I suspect it's something like 5 Ohms or so. if it is, replace it with a 1.2 Ohm one approx (the exact value depends on taste and a good reference with which to compare it...)

Hope this helps...

Dave i player with values, the original was ok..I've never personally liked Rega speakers, just out of intrest how efficient are these Jura's & who's Bass/Mid unit do they use, i know the tweeter is 'Morel' unit. The 'AE109' were very efficient around 90/91dB..

[DSJR]

Andre, the tweeter on AE109's was set WELL down in level. Perhaps bringing it up messed up the crossover , I don't know...

Rega make their own bass/mid units and they're all very good. The Jura mk1 needs half a cheap "Wilko" bath sponge sideways in each port and we loved the cable Talk 4.1 bi-wire (or the ebay available Excel 4 bi-wire) to sweeten the treble "sting" which was audible on fancy Chord co speaker leads (the "Wind" favoured by Marco was fine too, but silly money for these).

The Jura mk2 sorted the bass out and moved the tweeter nearer to the bass unit which improved the "sting." trouble was, the whole thing became a little too brightly lit for neutral sources, a cuddly Rega cartridge being a better option IMO.

I'll stick with me BC2's I think :D


http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/EarlyNoughtiesRegaSpeakers.jpg

From the left - Jura, NAOS (yumm), Alya, Ara

[Gazjam]

IMO, the AE109's don't warrant having loads spent on them when a far superior sound can be had from used Juras at £200 - £250 or so.

The easiest thing to do is carefully remove the crossover, which may be on the back of the terminal block and look at the resistor feeding the tweeter. I suspect it's something like 5 Ohms or so. if it is, replace it with a 1.2 Ohm one approx (the exact value depends on taste and a good reference with which to compare it...)

Hope this helps...


Thanks for that Dave, going to try this in the first instance before I start spending any real money!

[Gazjam]

Yes complete parts replacement, most low/mid range speakers are full of cheap shit parts & wire.Real sound barriers.All parts were kept out of the stupid price bracket

I used:
Jantzen Cross Coil Foil Inductors (Geortz are as good)
Kimber Kap metalized Polypropelene Capacitors
Caddock MP-930 Metal film power resistors
Kimber TXC Wire.

The Jantzen Inductors are available in Silver foil but would be silly paying so much for this particular speaker, same with the wire, stuck with copper instead of silver, i think Copper sounds better anyway..The results were transformation, took the speakers to another level..Please note that these inductors are very big compared to original so have to be carefully placed..I think i made a two deck board allowing me to fit in as originally mounted.Speaker terminals were J.A Michell.

http://www.jantzen-audio.com/index.html

http://www.caddock.com/Online_catalog/Mrktg_Lit/MP9000_Series.pdf

http://www.russandrews.com/static/KIMBER_Kaps.html

http://www.russandrews.com/product.asp?lookup=1&region=UK&currency=GBP&pf_id=2000&customer_id=PAA2409127309974EHJBTBVQYOBWWEJQ

http://www.michell-engineering.co.uk/audio_accessories.html#term

http://store.haveinc.com/p-53116-wonder-solder-signature-solid-fat-050-16ga-1lb-spool.aspx


Thansk for that Andre,
Im going to upgrade the innards of the 109's as a wee Poject in the New Year.
Hope you dont mind answering a couple of questions at the time! lol

[Steve Toy]

Dave, I had a pair of NAOS for seven years. In some ways I regret ever parting with them.

Back to the OP, buying a valve buffer stage that robs detail and screws up the timing just for a more pleasant noise is applying sticking plaster in the extreme. This is almost against the AOS ethos.

If your system sounds "digital" then the DAC or transport is wanting. Better isolation is one possibility. A decent screened mains lead feeding the DAC is another. This "digital" sound is basically upper frequency distortion. Don't attenuate it, fix it.

The Williams Audio DAC built for me by that nice man Duncan sounds anything but "digital" when you put a decent mains lead on it from Mark Grant for only £55.

[Marco]

Yep, Steve's absolutely right there, as was Leo earlier:


Just my opinion but I'd try and find the source behind the problem rather than use a device to mask it Gaz, its better in the long run rather than making do with a band aid mate...


Never, EVER mask problems by applying the audio equivalent of a sticking plaster - fix them instead at source!

It's the only way to sort things properly and guarantee long-term satisfaction :)

Marco.

P.S Steve, I agree with you about the NAOS. I'm not sure how much, in real terms, the quality of your speakers has moved on since you sold the Regas... However, upstream, your system has improved massively since those days. Now you just need to redress the balance! ;)

[Gazjam]

Cheers guys, noway am I getting somethin tha ADDS distortion to my system!

Back to source, I'm going to look again at opamp choices for my 7520 Caiman, there was a distinct change in sound "flavour" using different opamps, and that's where Im looking first.
Ive the LM4562 in at the moment, and I've found it no to be the most "warm n cosy" sounding amp, so will try a few alternatives.

Another theory I have is that the dac sound has changed (which it did) when I lined the Dacs case with Dynamat-like sheet. The bass tightened up considerably and perhaps my ears are just adjusting to the different sound with a lot less "resonant" low end?

Maybe a sweetspot will happen with a particular opamp...?

[leo]

Glad you got rid of the OPA2132, almost sure I mentioned this before but after running it in I found it gave an extremely annoying sound, so much so I felt like launching the dac through the window so removed it for good (currently back with THS4032) , certainly try some alternative op-amps Gaz, some are subtle in what they do but for me that OPA2132 really kills Stans dac
Just my opinion of course:)

[leo]

Oh, certainly try Stans latest cap update on the audioboard too, it may help