How to achieve soundstage depth

[OD1]

Having read many reviews where the listener describes sounds coming from behind the rear wall of the listening room (i.e "drums sound like they are in the back garden"), I can honestly say I have never heard music from my system that appears to emanate from behind the back wall, but would be great if I could achieve it.

If anyone has achieved this in their systems, could you please advise how you got there, and maybe suggest some recordings that have obvious depth for me to try ?

[farflungstar]

First it must be on the vinyl. Second a front end (cart/arm/deck) that can reveal the subtle spatial clues that portray the Acoustics of a venue, studio layering. Third wide bandwidth amplification. Four speakers that are transparent and extended at both ends, and lastly excellent interconnects and cabling. Oh and better not forget room interaction - complicated stuff.

Oh and clean ears!
Adey

In perpetual pursuit.

[Sherwood]

Having read many reviews where the listener describes sounds coming from behind the rear wall of the listening room (i.e "drums sound like they are in the back garden"), I can honestly say I have never heard music from my system that appears to emanate from behind the back wall, but would be great if I could achieve it.

If anyone has achieved this in their systems, could you please advise how you got there, and maybe suggest some recordings that have obvious depth for me to try ?

It takes a good system from front to end but I would suggest that the two ends of the chain are the most important. It is possible to create artificial 3d aural effects but they never sound quite right to me compared to "natural" recordings of live instruments and voices in real 3d space. So you need a good recording to start with. Then speakers: some designs will just not image well no matter what you play on them or the system that drives them. Speakers that do image well such as the LS35a are often in small cabinets or are point source type speakers such as electrostatics or single driver designs. In my experience, most of these speakers need some air around them to perform their 3d magic, my own Manegplanars and Rogers LS35a's included. Very few speakers can image well without some space behind them and I find that having some space behind the listening position also helps. It's all about room reflections I would guess but once heard it is difficult to move to a system that does not image well. It just makes it easier to follow all the parts of a performance!

Geoff

[walpurgis]

Having read many reviews where the listener describes sounds coming from behind the rear wall of the listening room (i.e "drums sound like they are in the back garden"), I can honestly say I have never heard music from my system that appears to emanate from behind the back wall, but would be great if I could achieve it.

My system does this. On records or CD. As suggested, recordings vary in ambient depth.

This by Kate Bush has tremendous depth and ambience: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTP6tEZ8yzM

This by Shpongle has too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBpLBzSz_-c&list=PLT91rEbVD1ye8FO3HzmBoW9RDUtF6NuTH

You should even get an impression of it through a computer sound system. Not that you may necessarily like either piece of music.

[sq225917]

What shape is your room Oliver?

[OD1]

I forgot to mention my system :doh:

Sources :
Gyrodec SE / OL Encounter 3c / DV 20X2L / Rothwell MCL
Cambridge CXC / Caiman II with latest mods

Croft 25R into Croft S7

Harbeth C7ES3

Listening room 25' long / 8' high, 9' wide for 12' of the length, and 12' wide for remaining 13' of length.
System is in the 9' wide part of the room with speakers firing down the length. SWMBO will not allow me to set up in the wider section of the room !!!

[Reffc]

Perceived soundstage depth is a combination of things but primarily the recording (and how it's been recorded and mastered), the room, and the speakers.

However, some speakers are better at pulling off the "depth" thing because of their ability to swing dynamic changes and detail effortlessly. It's not confined to big high efficiency speakers, but these do it well, but only where high S/N is evident which means that everything in the signal chain must be engineered to match appropriately and have decent S/N capability, and of course, well engineered source components are used.

I find that my Tannoy drivered creations pull off this trick but don't do the "hifi fireworks" trick of spreading the image across the walls and pinging details from spots in an arc across the listening stage like come do (which I also find irritating and false). Some position you towards the middle or rear of a concert hall (if we're talking classical for example) whilst some will place you right up front of the stage, close and personal. I prefer to be seated further back. Stereo isn't as evident (live) but the dynamic swings and the depth of the soundstage is. That's what I try to recreate at home although it'll never match the live dynamics of a concert hall. You'd be deaf very quickly if you tried it in a domestic setting.

[OD1]

First it must be on the vinyl. Second a front end (cart/arm/deck) that can reveal the subtle spatial clues that portray the Acoustics of a venue, studio layering. Third wide bandwidth amplification. Four speakers that are transparent and extended at both ends, and lastly excellent interconnects and cabling. Oh and better not forget room interaction - complicated stuff.

Oh and clean ears!
Adey

In perpetual pursuit.
:lol:

[Reffc]

I forgot to mention my system :doh:

Sources :
Gyrodec SE / OL Encounter 3c / DV 20X2L / Rothwell MCL
Cambridge CXC / Caiman II with latest mods

Croft 25R into Croft S7

Harbeth C7ES3

Listening room 25' long / 8' high, 9' wide for 12' of the length, and 12' wide for remaining 13' of length.
System is in the 9' wide part of the room with speakers firing down the length. SWMBO will not allow me to set up in the wider section of the room !!!

Are your speakers in free space or up close to a wall Oliver? I've found that Harbeths tend to work better in free space being thin walled designs. Even if you can pull them a metre out from the rear and away from sidewalls. I've also found that the C7ES3's work well near field too.

[OD1]

My system does this. On records or CD. As suggested, recordings vary in ambient depth.

This by Kate Bush has tremendous depth and ambience: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTP6tEZ8yzM

This by Shpongle has too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBpLBzSz_-c&list=PLT91rEbVD1ye8FO3HzmBoW9RDUtF6NuTH

You should even get an impression of it through a computer sound system. Not that you may necessarily like either piece of music.

Thanks Geoff, I will give these tracks a listen.

[Jac Hawk]

It's easy to achieve with an a/v amp and a 5.1 setup, my living room setup has to do everything, i like most of us don't have a room just for music, anyway after much experimenting and with demons on my shoulders telling me "this isn't proper stereo you muppet" I have my small room set up to sound like a much bigger space, one of the effects of this is the soundstage is much much wider and deeper, it sounds like instruments are outside of the walls.

[OD1]

I guess I should have phrased my question like this :doh:

The Soundstage I hear is always within the room boundaries, how can one get around this without room treatment, is it even possible ?

[Sherwood]

I forgot to mention my system :doh:

Sources :
Gyrodec SE / OL Encounter 3c / DV 20X2L / Rothwell MCL
Cambridge CXC / Caiman II with latest mods

Croft 25R into Croft S7

Harbeth C7ES3

Listening room 25' long / 8' high, 9' wide for 12' of the length, and 12' wide for remaining 13' of length.
System is in the 9' wide part of the room with speakers firing down the length. SWMBO will not allow me to set up in the wider section of the room !!!

I would suggest that it is your system placement rather than your equipment that is restricting imaging. Having lived in many different places over the years I have found the best imaging in larger "squarish" rooms. In fact, the best imaging I achieved was in a lounge that must have been at least 30' by 35' feet with really high ceilings. It had a concrete floor and walls with marble floor tiling. This might have made the sound very bright but it was furnished with big sofas, heavy curtains, thick jute rugs, and lots of books in cane bookshelves. I was able to place my speakers well out into the room and far away from sidewalls. I found that the image extended back as far as I pulled the speakers away from the ways, and sometimes further. My current lounge is of similar proportions to yours and imaging is far less impressive now.

Although it may not be allowed as a permanent layout I would encourage you to position your speakers around 1/3 of the length of the room at least a couple of feet away from the sidewalls. Position yourself at least a few feet from the rear wall and see whether you can percieve the missing depth. My guess is that you will!

Geoff

[Sherwood]

I guess I should have phrased my question like this :doh:

The Soundstage I hear is always within the room boundaries, how can one get around this without room treatment, is it even possible ?

Move your system into the garden and listen from your lounge!

[struth]

Easier with big speakers that are wide apart i guess. Mine do it quite well with some material, and can do the bouncy too i think due to the 4 main drivers.

[walpurgis]

I have big Tannoys in a small 10' by 11' room and the depth of soundstage extends way back, recreating a big ambience if it's in the recording.

[OD1]

I would suggest that it is your system placement rather than your equipment that is restricting imaging. Having lived in many different places over the years I have found the best imaging in larger "squarish" rooms. In fact, the best imaging I achieved was in a lounge that must have been at least 30' by 35' feet with really high ceilings. It had a concrete floor and walls with marble floor tiling. This might have made the sound very bright but it was furnished with big sofas, heavy curtains, thick jute rugs, and lots of books in cane bookshelves. I was able to place my speakers well out into the room and far away from sidewalls. I found that the image extended back as far as I pulled the speakers away from the ways, and sometimes further. My current lounge is of similar proportions to yours and imaging is far less impressive now.

Although it may not be allowed as a permanent layout I would encourage you to position your speakers around 1/3 of the length of the room at least a couple of feet away from the sidewalls. Position yourself at least a few feet from the rear wall and see whether you can percieve the missing depth. My guess is that you will!

Geoff

Hi Geoff,
I tried this a few times, but always had the depth confined to the rear wall. I managed to increase the soundstage width beyond the side walls by speaker placement, but no luck with depth.

[OD1]

I have big Tannoys in a small 10' by 11' room and the depth of soundstage extends way back, recreating a big ambience if it's in the recording.

Do you have room treatment on your rear wall ?

[User211]

Dipoles and omnis are good at creating depth effects, simply because they fire sound all over the place. I'm sure the reflections add to a sense of spaciousness.

The Martin Logan curved ESL panel chucks sound around a lot to create comb filtering effects. ML imaging can be fairly insane when set up away from the front walls.

Some horn drivers, and I am thinking GIP here, can throw images right behind your head with laser guided precision. Witnessed at Munich. Bizarre & incredible when actually heard. Probably an artifact of shooting sound waves down a narrow flaring pipe.

Phase is important and you will find that putting your speakers out of phase drastically affects imaging. My guess is vinyl is good at messing up phase relationships to give a more spatial sound. That is a serious guess, though. No evidence. That said, the higher noise floor of vinyl definitely provides injected dither, which IS known to increase the sense of space and air. Some recordings use it deliberately. Porcupine Tree use it.

[Sherwood]

Hi Geoff,
I tried this a few times, but always had the depth confined to the rear wall. I managed to increase the soundstage width beyond the side walls by speaker placement, but no luck with depth.

Oliver,

I am not sure what you are trying to achieve. Surely the goal is to reproduce the recording with regard to the original spatial placement of the performers. If you were hearing the performers "layered" behind the plane of the speakers when you had the speakers well out into the room then surely that is mission accomplished. Yes, on some recordings the sound appears very far back and outside the speakers but that is often due to specific room reflections and interactions. It is also important to differentiate between "depth" and volume. As some have already noted on this forum, dynamic systems can enhance the illusion of depth because they permit the reproduction of parts recorded at low volume.

Geoff

[User211]

Try using DIRAC. That will teach you a lesson in what the room does for you WRT to imaging and FR response. You'll either like it or not. I didn't.

[OD1]

Thanks for the good suggestions :)

During next week I will play around with speaker placement, listen to the tracks suggested, play some simple acoustic music, & let you know the outcome.

I will also tinker with higher volume settings (after advising my neighbours :eyebrows:) to see if ambient clues are deeper in the recordings ?

Oliver

[Oldpinkman]

This whole soundstage depth thing is one of my big "nerdy" obsessions. Well, it was. I may have grown up

The very best I heard was in my Dad's living room, with ESL 63's about 6 ft apart, and just in front of the gap to their dining room

I get a really good result (again with ESL 63's) in my new living room

Yes - it has to be on the recording
Yes - the kit has to be up to quality
Yes - the room could play a part, and your tunnel wouldn't be my first choice

I don't think I have ever heard a convincing effect with speakers that are close to walls. Free space seems to be key. My speakers, ESL 63's really are only at their best at least 6 feet apart, on stands, at least 3 feet from a rear wall and the outer edges 2 feet from a side wall. They are a great dipole

But - critically - like all stereo - its a con. Well, its a trick. And like with visual tricks, some people get it better than others, and some people never get fooled at all. I can "see" Joan Armatradings voice from a point between and behind the speakers I could get up and touch (ask Cagey and Sovereign about this). But her voice isnt actually coming from there. There is nothing creating a sound which ACTUALLY comes from the point my hearing (and vision) pinpoints it at.

Actually - as a matter of science, the sound is coming from 2 points either side of where I perceive it. I have been conned. Given that I love this effect, I am fortunate to be a gullible sort, easily conned. But it is false

The underlined "vision" point may help. Try listening with your eyes closed or in pitch black and remove the visual cues. And , even if it upsets the tonal balance, bring the speakers forward away from walls just to see if it gives the effect

Of course a good spectacularly modified Pink Triangle helps ;)

[plastic penguin]

IME good, deep soundstage is whether the recording is high quality (regardless of digital or analogue) and how your amp and speakers images.

[Macca]

This whole soundstage depth thing is one of my big "nerdy" obsessions. Well, it was. I may have grown up

The very best I heard was in my Dad's living room, with ESL 63's about 6 ft apart, and just in front of the gap to their dining room

I get a really good result (again with ESL 63's) in my new living room

Yes - it has to be on the recording
Yes - the kit has to be up to quality
Yes - the room could play a part, and your tunnel wouldn't be my first choice

I don't think I have ever heard a convincing effect with speakers that are close to walls. Free space seems to be key. My speakers, ESL 63's really are only at their best at least 6 feet apart, on stands, at least 3 feet from a rear wall and the outer edges 2 feet from a side wall. They are a great dipole

But - critically - like all stereo - its a con. Well, its a trick. And like with visual tricks, some people get it better than others, and some people never get fooled at all. I can "see" Joan Armatradings voice from a point between and behind the speakers I could get up and touch (ask Cagey and Sovereign about this). But her voice isnt actually coming from there. There is nothing creating a sound which ACTUALLY comes from the point my hearing (and vision) pinpoints it at.

Actually - as a matter of science, the sound is coming from 2 points either side of where I perceive it. I have been conned. Given that I love this effect, I am fortunate to be a gullible sort, easily conned. But it is false

The underlined "vision" point may help. Try listening with your eyes closed or in pitch black and remove the visual cues. And , even if it upsets the tonal balance, bring the speakers forward away from walls just to see if it gives the effect

Of course a good spectacularly modified Pink Triangle helps ;)

Agree about the side walls, I have that problem. I disagree that stereo imaging is false, if you are hearing the vocal like that you are hearing what the engineer intended you to hear.

I don't go with the idea that imaging is like one of those magic pictures that some see easily and some don't or have trouble. My system you have to concentrate a bit to pick out the 'images', but I have heard systems that image holographically and there is no need to pay attention, it is just there.

To be faithful to the recording the imaging should always be behind the plane of the speakers. If vocalist or sax player or whatever is forward in the mix is out in front 'on the rug', or behind you or any other such marvel then it isn't right, even if you do like it.

[Oldpinkman]

I don't go with the idea that imaging is like one of those magic pictures that some see easily and some don't or have trouble. My system you have to concentrate a bit to pick out the 'images', but I have heard systems that image holographically and there is no need to pay attention, it is just there.



My system is pretty holographic. My point is the sound I "hear" from the middle of the speakers doesnt come from the middle of the speakers. It comes from the right speaker, and the left speaker and arrives at my right ear and left ear at slightly different times, and my brain constructs an image from what it hears that is wrong. If my brain was any good it would hear a sound from speaker A, and a sound from speaker B and know full bloody well that nothing was coming out of point C in the middle of them. Partly that illusion is about how well the trick works for you.

Its not that different to 3d cinema. As someone who has only one functioning eye I can promise you that you can have the best video equipment and recording in the world and I won't see a 3D image.

[struth]

Ive 2 eyes and dont see 3d either.

[Haselsh1]

This time around I have sound appearing about fifteen feet behind the speakers but central and sound coming from immediately left and right of the seating position. These side on sounds appear to be about six feet wide of my ears. This I attribute to the Uni-Q driver in the KEF's but I have heard imagery like this from Rogers LS3/5a's way back in the nineties. No other speakers I have ever owned have imaged like these two have.

[Macca]

My system is pretty holographic. My point is the sound I "hear" from the middle of the speakers doesnt come from the middle of the speakers. It comes from the right speaker, and the left speaker and arrives at my right ear and left ear at slightly different times, and my brain constructs an image from what it hears that is wrong. If my brain was any good it would hear a sound from speaker A, and a sound from speaker B and know full bloody well that nothing was coming out of point C in the middle of them. Partly that illusion is about how well the trick works for you.

Its not that different to 3d cinema. As someone who has only one functioning eye I can promise you that you can have the best video equipment and recording in the world and I won't see a 3D image.

I see your point. Yes it won't work if you can't hear on both sides of your head.

[Sherwood]

This thread has reminded me of an incident back in the 80's. I was re-arranging my hifi layout and (lazily) trying to reconnect a pair of speakers with my amp in situ. By mistake (AND DO NOT DO THIS YOURSELF) I connected the first pair of speakers across the two +ve terminals. I was playing a Carly Simon LP at the time and was astounded at the sound that emerged. Since it was playing the difference between the two stereo tracks, the main part of the track was cancelled out and in it's place the backing vocals took prominence with James Taylor sounding as if he was at the end of a tunnel. I played another dozen or so albums and found the effect was inconsistent but in general was most pronounced on naturally recorded albums with a good (wide and deep) sound stage. I wonder if this is linked to spatial imaging in some way?

Geoff

[petrat]

Good point, Richard. In both the systems where I've heard the effect in extremis, the speakers were really wide apart (Audio Physic style). They were also playing really loud. In a big room. With superbly-recorded material.

BTW, another good track for this is Tin Pan Alley by Stevie Ray Vaughan. Drummer is miles back.

[Sherwood]

My system is pretty holographic. My point is the sound I "hear" from the middle of the speakers doesnt come from the middle of the speakers. It comes from the right speaker, and the left speaker and arrives at my right ear and left ear at slightly different times, and my brain constructs an image from what it hears that is wrong. If my brain was any good it would hear a sound from speaker A, and a sound from speaker B and know full bloody well that nothing was coming out of point C in the middle of them. Partly that illusion is about how well the trick works for you.

Its not that different to 3d cinema. As someone who has only one functioning eye I can promise you that you can have the best video equipment and recording in the world and I won't see a 3D image.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXypyrutq_M

[walpurgis]

This thread has reminded me of an incident back in the 80's. I was re-arranging my hifi layout and (lazily) trying to reconnect a pair of speakers with my amp in situ. By mistake (AND DO NOT DO THIS YOURSELF) I connected the first pair of speakers across the two +ve terminals. I was playing a Carly Simon LP at the time and was astounded at the sound that emerged. Since it was playing the difference between the two stereo tracks, the main part of the track was cancelled out and in it's place the backing vocals took prominence with James Taylor sounding as if he was at the end of a tunnel. I played another dozen or so albums and found the effect was inconsistent but in general was most pronounced on naturally recorded albums with a good (wide and deep) sound stage. I wonder if this is linked to spatial imaging in some way?

Geoff

What you had in fact achieved there was a form of the pseudo quadraphonic Hafler circuit for speakers, albeit with your speakers at the front. This used the out of phase information on recordings to add an ambience to the sound. Done right, with high impedance drivers, it was quite effective.

http://i65.tinypic.com/16m9ixy.jpg

As shown, this best tried only with common neg amps and the impedance has to be considered. I used to do it just with 16 ohm tweeters at the rear, coupled by series capacitors and with commoned negs going to amp neg via a pot. Tweeters work fine on their own at the rear, as they provide most of the directional and ambient information.

[alphaGT]

I've heard this effect from electrostatic speakers best. A friend's pair of Martin Logan Sequels had it in spades! All the time, from every seat in the room. Although his ancillary equipment was top of the line, I'm sure that helped. For my own system, I've had trouble capturing that effect, I believe my speakers are too far apart, for the distance of my listening position. But where I used to live I had a fairly modest system and could find that moment of sweetness when the walls of the room would disappear. One recording that was almost artificially creating the effect was Dire Straights, Brothers in Arms. Air in the recording was huge! But most of all I attribute the effect to a nice beer, or red wine. A little something to help make that leap of faith, that could transport you to the venue.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Sherwood]

What you had in fact achieved there was a form of the pseudo quadraphonic Hafler circuit for speakers, albeit with your speakers at the front. This used the out of phase information on recordings to add an ambience to the sound. Done right, with high impedance drivers, it was quite effective.

http://i65.tinypic.com/16m9ixy.jpg

As shown, this best tried only with common neg amps and the impedance has to be considered. I used to do it just with 16 ohm tweeters at the rear, coupled by series capacitors and with commoned negs going to amp neg via a pot. Tweeters work fine on their own at the rear, as they provide most of the directional and ambient information.

Thanks for explaining this. I had figured that what I was hearing was the difference between the two channels. On the track "You're so vain" James Taylor could be heard belting out his background parts (ooeer missus!). I could see that with a quad system it would be interesting. I think I will stay with 2 channels though!

Geoff