Need help with speaker crossover

[Niko]

Hi everyone!
I know it really sounds easy and I already feel stupid but I really need some help.
I am just finishing IPL acoustic S2TLM ribbon speakers.

I have tried today to assemble one crossover to see how it works.
Did not solder anything but just twisted wires and put some spades on internal wire.
I have triple checked crossover panel drawings...but end up that is not working good.
I can barely hear speakers...so I think that I have probably did something wrong on crossover panel because I have tested speakers both together in biwire and separately bass and tweeter.

I have even take spades out and tried with bare internal wire to try to eliminate problem.
I have tried to disconnect and connect 3x and even tested another pair of speakers.
Every time the same.
I can actually tell now that I don't hear tweeter at all and I can hear bass unit barely...and without any bass.
I will try to put pictures here so If any one can help me with some tip or thinking what I have done wrong.

Many thanks and sorry for my bad english.

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss201/nikolacigo/IMG_0344_zpsk7mypmh5.jpg (http://s576.photobucket.com/user/nikolacigo/media/IMG_0344_zpsk7mypmh5.jpg.html)

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss201/nikolacigo/IMG_0341_zpsfd3ebyx1.jpg (http://s576.photobucket.com/user/nikolacigo/media/IMG_0341_zpsfd3ebyx1.jpg.html)

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss201/nikolacigo/IMG_0342_zpsdho72rjq.jpg (http://s576.photobucket.com/user/nikolacigo/media/IMG_0342_zpsdho72rjq.jpg.html)

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss201/nikolacigo/IMG_0343_zpsrtidceng.jpg (http://s576.photobucket.com/user/nikolacigo/media/IMG_0343_zpsrtidceng.jpg.html)

Cheers!

[walpurgis]

Difficult to be sure, but from the description of what you are hearing, it could be that you have connected the bass drivers to the tweeter output and possibly the tweeters to the bass section. I hope the tweeters have survived intact, as bass put through them could be bad.

You must use a series capacitor if you are testing the tweeters. Unless you have a meter handy of course.

[Niko]

Thank you for answering walpurgis!
I am 100% sure that I did not mix bass and tweeter.
And I'm to tired an frustrated to assemble another one to try tonight.

[walpurgis]

In that case Nikola, it could be a good idea to email IPL. I'm sure they'd assist.

http://www.iplacoustics.co.uk/

[fatmarley]

From what I can see the crossover looks fine. Certainly the woofer section, so you should be getting sound through the woofer at least.

Have a good nights sleep and double check the wiring tomorrow. You'll probably be doing this (:doh:) when you find out what the problem Is.

[Niko]

Hi!
I got the answer today from mr.Ivan ( IPL acoustic) and he said that the crossovers must be assembled properly with soldered joints, all wire ends must be scraped so there is no insulation left on the inductor wires , just twisting together is not good enough.
I was hoping that that was it what I did wrong so when I came today afternoon home I did as told and again the same thing.
Was trying to find someone with skills on this stuff around me is about 200 km from here.
And even that guy when I send him the picture of my assembly told me bass should work without a problem.

I think at the and I will send back components to IPL so Ivan can do that for me.

All I can say is I am a little disappointed in myself.... because from all topics on IPL build never heard that anybody head problem with crossover assembly.
Aaaaaaah! :steam:

[The Alchemist]

Hi Nikola, I'm sorry you are having problems with you crossovers. My hobby is building IPL speakers and have made quite a few over the years. Whilst I am keen on testing things out I think that you have been over ambitious in assembling the componenets "dry" and expecting them to work. My advice would be to disconnect all the components and clean all the bare wires thoroughly with abrasive paper, pay particular attention to the terminals. (Ivan is very particular about that in his instructions.) Then carfully solder all the wires together. As far as testing is concerned, I just do a simple continuity check with a meter but be aware that you might not get anything downstream of the capacitors. I suspect that if you take my advice you will find that it will all work fine but if you need to contact Ivan I'm sure that he will be very helpful. You may be interested in seeing how I do my crossovers. Instead of fixing everything to the connection panel I fix a piece of 3mm Paxolin sheet to the "posts" on the panel and assemble everything to the board using hot melt glue and cable ties. All soldered joints are made on solder tags for extra security. The original input tags from the connection panel are transfered to the new board and attached with short flying leads. This is maybe a bit fiddly and time consuming but well worth it to do a good job. It is very frustrating when things do not go to plan with a DIY product but I'm sure that you will be delighted with the results when you finish your speakers. I will include a photograph of the way that I do my crossovers which may be of interest to you and hope that you get everything sorted soon.

[walpurgis]

Soldering is pretty easy and just requires a little patience and common sense. If you never have a go, you'll never be able to and it's a handy skill to have. You can ask here for any advice you need as you go along. The equipment is cheap enough.

There is nothing in the crossovers that is particularly prone to damage, just don't cut wires too short. Any soldering mistakes can be rectified, as joints can be resoldered easily. Also, there's nothing there that can't be replaced at no great cost, should the worst happen.

The only thing to be careful with once the crossovers are built is the ribbon tweeters. They will blow if the receive bass signals.

[fatmarley]

Soldering's easy once you know how. There are tons of tutorial videos on Youtube:

Zu3TYBs65FM

Antex make good, cheap reliable irons.

[The Alchemist]

Finally sorted how to show an image of my crossovers- hope it is of interest.

http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah213/thealchemist3/DSC_0430_zpseu3uywti.jpg

[Niko]

Thank you guys for support!
The Alcemist...now I see that googling the pictures on web I have seen yours pictures of crossover. Very nice work I must say!
It is not the first time for me to solder. I have the cheapest soldering iron and don't do it often but did all my interconects and power cables so I have some experience.
Have changed speakers in my car couple years ago.
But never did crossover till now.
Also I did not mix bass and tweeter units...Fountek Ribbon even has color crimp terminals so you can't mix neither + or -


http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss201/nikolacigo/neocd3.0m-blk_zpshamjeinr.jpg (http://s576.photobucket.com/user/nikolacigo/media/neocd3.0m-blk_zpshamjeinr.jpg.html)

This is not my field...so the thing that is not going into my head is that it is so sensitive if not really good connection.
How come that does not happened if you just twist speaker wires on terminals...and it is actually better not to solder connections like bananas and etc. ...they work like that without a problem.
Will try tomorrow last time to disconnect all the components and clean wires,terminals, solder again.

[Niko]

:cheers:

[fatmarley]

From what I'm reading, It looks like you may not have removed the enamel off the inductor wire properly. I use a Stanley knife to scrape the ends. Just keep turning and scraping until there's only bare copper left. Tin the end with some solder and attach It to wherever It goes.

If you have a multimeter, you could check the inductors for continuity before connecting the crossover up.

[Niko]

Hi guys!
Just to let you know...I have tried today again cleaned everything...scraped with stanley knife then with sand paper until just copper left.
Soldered again and did not have success.
So after nice week enjoying working on cabinets last 4-5 days with crossovers left bitter taste in my mouth.
I don't want to waste more time and nerves on them.
Will pack it and send back to Ivan and pay him to do it for me.
Never felt so disappointed...but that's life.
Thanks for all the tip and support!
Cheers!

[system7]

I think you must be just missing something here. Such a simple circuit and biwired makes it easier still.

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss201/nikolacigo/IMG_0341_zpsfd3ebyx1.jpg

I can see the bass coil here is making no contact at all at the bottom. It's still enamelled, for instance. I always leave leads long on capacitors initially since they are most easily heat damaged. Coils should be at right angles ideally, but that is minor. I don't know why the design is wiring 3R with 2.4R. A single 5.6R would do! With crimp connectors, it is a good idea to double the wire back on itself to make it fatter for a good crimp sometimes. And you do have to line a crimp up so metal meets metal.

Soldering with modern unleaded needs at least a 40W iron and clean surfaces. 5 seconds most. Otherwise let it cool down and try again.

BTW, don't assume red is positive with Fountek ribbons. Troels Gravesen found that Fountek JP3 is consistently wired unconventionally.

[Niko]

Hi systemZ!
That is first picture before soldering when I was just twisting wires.
I have tried with soldering yesterday and today again after cleaning,using sandpaper etc.

Here is one picture when I started soldering again today.
I know that maybe is not the best joint but I think is good enough.
http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss201/nikolacigo/IMG_0347_zpsr0x31tes.jpg (http://s576.photobucket.com/user/nikolacigo/media/IMG_0347_zpsr0x31tes.jpg.html)

I don't know can I damage tweeter if I try other way around for + and - just to see if that was problem.
I can't hear it at all....actually I was hearing some really low sound but somewhere about where are amplifier speaker terminals :confused: so I said:That is it....I give up!

[system7]

It's probably getting a bit late in Croatia now, but I had to do my homework here.

We have a current Hi-Vi M6N or older M6A which are almost identical:
http://www.swanspeaker.com/asp/product/htm/view.asp?id=79

A Fountek NeoCD3.0 93dB ribbon tweeter.
http://www.fountek.com.au/products/NeoCD30/

Here's another Paul Carmody ZX Spectrum project that uses the Hi-Vi M6A with a more efficient ribbon.
https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/zx-spectrum

And here's the IPL S2TLM page:
http://www.iplacoustics.co.uk/S2tlm%20Ribbon.htm

It's all a bit short of space on the back of that connection panel shown previously, but you're looking OK.

We're really wondering where the bad connections could be. I'd suspect the crimp joints. I'd suspect the screw on connectors to the terminals and all those nuts and tags, which can loosen when you turn a speaker connector. Even the loudspeaker cables and plugs. Not much to go wrong with soldered joints really. Once you are happy with the connections, you'd cut the soldered joints shorter.

I think somebody mentioned using a multimeter on the crossover. Possibly safest and best with the drive units unconnected since ribbons are delicate.

So from the bass positive input on the back of the speaker, to the output of the coil, you should get 0.58R or whatever the resistance of the bass coil is.

From the tweeter positive to the end of the two resistors should be 5.4R.

I really can't be at all sure about this positive polarity and red thing on the tweeter, beyond looking further into Troels Gravesen's comments that he found the opposite on the JP3.


Fig. 62a. Fountek JP3 ribbon seen from the rear.
According to international standards, a driver should have the positive terminal marked in such a way that when a positive voltage is applied to this terminal, the membrane shall move outwards.
This is NOT the case for the Fountek ribbon. Initially I assumed the terminal with the red ring terminal was PLUS.

Quite confusing, isn’t it? I only know of JBL that decades ago kept using a reversed polarity policy opposite to all others.
Well, I wasn’t aware of this until I had to re-check the layout schematics for the Acapella and the TJL Loudspeaker.
All schematics in the files have been correct, and the listening tests performed have naturally been conducted with correct polarity being performed after measuring the SPL response from the various constructions.
But a number of people may have been confused and taken the red ring terminal for PLUS. I have pointed out this to the Fountek Company and I’m waiting for their response. To my knowledge all pictures of Fountek drivers show this configuration.

It's actually very hard to hear an out-of-phase tweeter. It ought to sound a bit diffuse and unlocated at crossover frequency. It does no damage wired wrong, just sounds and certainly measures wrong.

What a long post. Lastly the simple schematic as a guess, and a very rough estimate of frequency response. This really ought to work. :scratch:

19165 19166

[system7]

These photobucket pages usually disappear quickly when subjected to the demands of the Forums...

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss201/nikolacigo/IMG_0342_zpsdho72rjq.jpg

But I was looking closely at this one and it is a shocker. Look at the blue tag by the yellow coil. You can't twist solid wire round a speaker tag and hope for a good connection. If you did that with mains, the sparks would fly and the smoke would go up!

I try to solder EVERYTHING. Or good crimps with multi-strand speaker cable.

[Firebottle]

Good post #17 Steve :thumbsup:

[Niko]

Thank you systemZ for putting so much effort in yours previous posts!

Some things I want to clear out again!
First I like good sound so I enjoy music every day...but...I am not expert in field of constructing crossover.
I am pretty "picky" when doing DIY things if that is a good word to chose.
So I try to do things as good as I can and I triple check everything before testing.

I know...I know :) and I want to repeat...Please don't judge by looking on my first try when I was just twisting wires without soldering(the one you can find on photobucket)

I did it like that just to test before soldering to see does it works...and it did not work.
I did not know that I can't do "dry" connection for testing so after that and after I got the answer from Ivan(IPL) and some people here(Thank you!) that it won't work properly without soldered joints, and that all wire ends must be scraped so there is no insulation left on the inductor wires , just twisting together is not good enough.
And I did that and again the same.
So I did it yesterday again-third time...take the solder off...cleaned everything...scraped with stanley knife then with sand paper until just copper left. Not just wires from capacitors,inductors etc... but inner side of every speaker terminal where the connection will go. Soldered again and did not have success.

I must say that you have helped very much with information about reversed polarity of Ribbons because I have tried it now other way and actually there is some sound but again so low that I suspect that is OK. So if I conncect wires how I think the + and - are no sound at all,if I do it reverse how you have suggested than really barely hearing some sound.
Considering the fact that when listening music on my old Monitor audio speakers I don't go more than 35-40 on amplifier and testing now either bass unit or tweeter here I can barely hear anything on 45 I think that something is wrong.
It is either how I have constructed and connected crossover or something else. I must say also that I am not testing drivers inside the cabinets but just out alone.

Another thing for example...if I just put speaker cable on speaker terminals on MA speakers it already works so I would leave out possibility and suspect on the screw on connectors to the terminals on this speakers. And I have screwed and twisted everything like crazy on this one.
Speaker cables are also fine...never head any problem with them loosing connectivity(I'm using "fork" type spades on them).

To answer on yours first question why the design is wiring 3R with 2.4R. Ivan have put them like that in design so that one resistor can be changed to give a bit more or a bit less treble...if is to high than you can put higher value then 3R ,and if treble to low you can put lower. The bass can be tweaked by varying the amount and position of the long haired wool.
That is why I have choose these speakers in first place for DIY.

But as I said before I was thinking that constructing crossover is not a rocket science and that I will manage to do it without a problem...but it looks it is for me :lol:
Especially when looking on people posts on building different types of IPL speakers...no one mentioned any trouble with crossover...or with Ribbon polarity.

Last...here is schematic for bass and tweeter from IPL acoustic instruction paper.
http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss201/nikolacigo/IMG_0348_zpsmobeplcm.jpg (http://s576.photobucket.com/user/nikolacigo/media/IMG_0348_zpsmobeplcm.jpg.html)
As you can see everything is how you have guessed....just in bass scheme 1.5R comes after 6.8 uF.

Since I live in a small town here I can't find anyone that is in that field to see where and what I am doing wrong,nobody heard about Ribbon tweeter and TL type of speakers so I am pretty by myself in problem.
I have send some pictures to people that know the basics and they say it should work...at least the bass unit without any problem.

So I think the best way to be 100% sure is that I send crossovers back to IPL so Ivan can construct them for me and check them on the same type of drivers.
Many thanks to you again systemZ...many thanks everybody!
It is nice to have people here on this forum that really want to help.
Cheers!

[RothwellAudio]

I recommend you don't send the crossovers back just yet. If you have a simple multimeter and you think about what you are doing you can solve this.
First off: are the drivers working ok? Measure the coil resistance and if it looks ok you can test the bass drivers safely by just connecting them to an amp and listening. Test the tweeters by putting a capacitor in series for safety.

Next, look at the crossover with a multimeter set to resistance. Capacitors will read open circuit and those inductors will read just a fraction of an ohm. Look at the diagram and measure things and you'll work out what's gone wrong.

[walpurgis]

I recommend you don't send the crossovers back just yet. If you have a simple multimeter and you think about what you are doing you can solve this.
First off: are the drivers working ok? Measure the coil resistance and if it looks ok you can test the bass drivers safely by just connecting them to an amp and listening. Test the tweeters by putting a capacitor in series for safety.

Next, look at the crossover with a multimeter set to resistance. Capacitors will read open circuit and those inductors will read just a fraction of an ohm. Look at the diagram and measure things and you'll work out what's gone wrong.

Yup! There's nothing there that can't be sorted out easily enough with a little patience. Instead of getting frustrated, regard it as a challenge and decide not to be beaten. You can do it. :thumbsup:

[Niko]

Ok guys!
I will try to find somewhere or buy that multimeter thing even I have never used it in my life.

I was just thinking something today.
In first testing of crossover when I was just twisting wires and nothing worked I had drives attached to cabinet.
But from then I was testing drivers just outside of box on the floor.

What is the difference when drivers are not in speaker cabinet?
Could that be the reason that bass driver is not "bassy" at all.
Maybe I am expecting the sound like from car drivers and this is not the case how it should be.
So I will try tomorrow to put drivers in cabinet to listen like that.
Didn't have time to try anything cause it happened to be my Bday today.
Cheers!

[struth]

no cabinet, no bass

[fatmarley]

Ok guys!
I will try to find somewhere or buy that multimeter thing even I have never used it in my life.

I was just thinking something today.
In first testing of crossover when I was just twisting wires and nothing worked I had drives attached to cabinet.
But from then I was testing drivers just outside of box on the floor.

What is the difference when drivers are not in speaker cabinet?
Could that be the reason that bass driver is not "bassy" at all.
Maybe I am expecting the sound like from car drivers and this is not the case how it should be.
So I will try tomorrow to put drivers in cabinet to listen like that.
Didn't have time to try anything cause it happened to be my Bday today.
Cheers!

Happy birthday Niko :)

Use any spare birthday money to buy a multimeter. It's worth having one In the house anyway...

As Grant said - Take a driver out of It's cabinet and the bass will disappear, so don't worry about that.

EDIT:

Oh and It's good practice to measure all the passive components before fitting them. I once had some 3.3uF Mundorf polyprops that actually measured 0.33uF. And only recently I had a ceramic resistor that didn't measure anywhere near what It was supposed to.

[walpurgis]

I had a diode that was open circuit in one direction on the meter. :D

[system7]

Happy Birthday, Nikola. :)

I do hope you're feeling encouraged at least. TBH, if Ivan will build it for you, that can't be a bad option. I'm surprised he doesn't offer it ready-built, TBH. Because not everyone has an engineering background and all the tools. And I've spent a fortune on tools over the years.

It's not hard to figure out where a bad connection might be if you have the circuit and a multimeter:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=19165&d=1485125031

But you have to know that coils should measure nearly short-circuit to DC with the ohms scale, and capacitors open circuit. And test to and from various points.

What I wanted to tidy up was the odd polarity issue on Fountek and the nature of ribbons really, following a bit of digging around.

Ribbons are actually terribly fragile things. Just a bit of stretched corrugated aluminium foil in a magnetic gap. Don't blow on them! So testing polarity must not push them hard. First image, and maybe Ivan is the man to do this, after all, it's his Fountek baby!

19178

Replacing them can be done at home. You can find the whole article with google "Troels Gravesen JP3 ribbon replacement". Here's a shot of his homebake replacement made of domestic aluminium cooking foil. End result: Second Image. It works well.

19179

It's not rocket science, but skilled.

[fatmarley]

I had a diode that was open circuit in one direction on the meter. :D

Ah shut up you :)

[fatmarley]

Good old Youtube:

5G622WDZaHg

[WAD62]

Ok guys!
Didn't have time to try anything cause it happened to be my Bday today.
Cheers!

Hi Nico, good luck with the crossovers...hopefully the lack of bass is due to the absence of the TL cabinet, as others have mentioned

FWIW I have 2 pairs of IPLs (S5tl mk2s, and M4s), but wasn't brave enough to build either pair myself, when I saw the wiring diagrams 'I phoned a friend'...:doh:

I'm very happy with both pairs, FYI the M4s are in the kitchen

One bit of useful advice a can give you is follow Ivan's instructions when it finally comes to positioning your S2TLs...

The S2tlm Ribbon has been designed to work in slightly smaller rooms than the S2tlk, and will work well in rooms of at least 14ft by 12ft with speakers firing the length of the room, ideally at least 16" from the side wall and 10" from the rear wall.

...fire the length of the room, and no toeing in :)

This made a massive difference with my S5tls, really opened up the soundstage

They should sound lovely, and that'll be a proper b'day present :cool:

[Niko]

Hello people!
I just want to tell you that I have managed to make speakers work!
And I wan't to thank you all for everything you´ve done trying to help.
I even bought multimeter but I actually did not need it much.

It turns out that I have made series of mistakes but in the and everything works.

As you know in first testing of crossover when I was just twisting wires and nothing worked I had drives attached to cabinet.
But from that time I was testing drivers just outside of box on the floor.
And that was my biggest mistake cause bass driver outside of cabinet actually was working OK from beginning but did not produce right sound without cabinet...:brickwall:(How could I be so stupid?)

With Ribbon tweeter I actually don't know what happened...every time when I was testing it alone did not produce any sound when connected as red like + and blue -
But reversed as systemZ suggested did gave some sound.
Both Ribbon units responded same.

As soon as I connected both Ribbon and bass driver to amp all started to work.
I really don't know what happened?
Don't understand why when I was testing just Ribbon tweeter did not want to work because it is bi-wire system and both units actually work separately haveing separate wires from amp.
Sound felt little strange so I have returned again for + on red spade and for - on blue on Ribbon.
That sounded better...later I got conformation from Ivan that red is +
So...as you can see it was actually nothing bad with my soldering skills.

Thank you guys again for everything and sorry for all my mistakes.
Speakers sound is quite different from my MA BR5.
I need to get used to it.Everything sounds more natural,guitar,piano.... and I like it...but bass is not "ballsy" as I have supposed reading peoples reactions on net. I feel it but no so strong like on MA...and it is different. I need to turn amp. volume a bit more up but I think it is due to different sensitivity of speakers.I even did not put any wool behind driver and it is OK. Maybe it will change after speakers burn in time.

Cheers!

[walpurgis]

I knew you could do it Nikola. Well done mate.


The speakers should have good deep bass, perhaps the drivers need running in a bit to loosen up.

[The Alchemist]

I'm delighted that you have got your speakers working. I'm sure that the more you listen to them, the more you will appreciate what a fine pair of speakers you have made.

[fatmarley]

Glad to hear you got them working :)

As Geoff said, you may get a bit more bass when the drivers have run In.