Expensive MC's, are they worth it?

[Floyddroid]

Been listening t a myriad of cartridges lately and wondering to myself just much better expensive Moving Coil cartridges than some cheaper options or even Moving Magnets. Very much a topic worthy of debate methinks. Let's not forget that once the transition is made between MM to MC then better electronics to amplify the minuscule signal is needed as well as the leap in price of the device itself. Does it bare comparison to the views of cable sceptics?:scratch:

[mainaman]

I think that as most things in high-end audio the law of diminishing returns kicks in after 1000 pounds or even less than that.Also the equipment must scale up as well.The really expensive carts,10 000+ pounds;they are for analogue setups that cost more than a new Porsche Cayman.I think the profit margins are outrageous,same as the top end cables,but obviously there is a market for that product.

[Firebottle]

It's a damn good question Steve, here is my thinking and current experience:

As with any setup, regardless of the source, if you have a bottleneck somewhere in the system then you are not getting the best performance that can be had from said source.
With the incremental improvements in my own design amplification throughout last year, I now think that the system is firing on all cylinders. Frankly it is now sounding stunning with any source, even FM radio. So I can enjoy whatever ultimate performance that is on offer from MM or MC cartridges.

I have recently bought a Denon DL-103, an inexpensive cart by MC standards, and am now in touch with the emotion of whatever I put on the TT.
I won't be looking for better/more expensive because this does it for me.

I'm sure a big dollop of synergy of the whole chain is coming into effect, YMMV.

:D

[CageyH]

A really good MM cartridge is still worth having. I still enjoy my AT150MLX and EPC-U205.
Reasonable price MC cartridges like the AT33PTG/II still other something different. I have not tried an expensive MC cartridge as I do not see the need.

[Haselsh1]

A very loud 'NO' from moi...!
The reason...? The margins are immense on such things. It cannot be justified.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Yes expensive MC carts ARE worth it but only in the right setup. I've spent £300 on a Shure M55E MM cartridge+Snakewood body+ JICO neoSAS stylus setup and it's extremely enjoyable BUT my ortofon cadenza black just does stuff like no other cartridge I've heard.

[Scooby]

I'm very fond of the Denon 103 and its variants, also the AT33 and 0C9 series. I've not heard anything massively more expensive so it's hard to say how much bett they are. Personally there's a limit to how much I would spend on a cartridge and it doesn't go beyond the models above.

I haven't heard the Technics but I have no doubts it will be excellent. MMs generally have been disappointing for me. The Goldring 1000 series are very well regarded and they are probably better than other MMs I've tried. They have still fallen short of any MC I've owned though.

[struth]

I like mm,s tbh. They have a bit of grit to them. Mcs can be very nice but at a cost often. Also having to get the amplification right is another cost potentially....and hassle sometimes

[Ali Tait]

Yes expensive MC carts ARE worth it but only in the right setup. I've spent £300 on a Shure M55E MM cartridge+Snakewood body+ JICO neoSAS stylus setup and it's extremely enjoyable BUT my ortofon cadenza black just does stuff like no other cartridge I've heard.

This. Can say the same for my Benz Gullwing SLR.

[Audio Al]

I have found with MM carts the sound is coloured / muddy
With high end mc carts they become more clinical / clear / crisp / defined , If you want to hear the music MC for me every time ;)

[Arkless Electronics]

I guess it could be said that as a MC cart, when taken reductio ad absurdum, is nothing more complicated than two small coils of wire being waggled in front of a magnet by a cantilever bearing a stylus at the far end.... As such, the innards of a £200 and £2000 example are virtually identical. I'm going to make a wild observation that there should be no reason that MC cart of "as good as it gets" quality could not be offered for sale at say £250... and that maybe cheaper, less competent examples are deliberately held back in their performance in order to give an upgrade path of increasing profitability for the manufacturers...

Look at the precision micro engineering involved in a laser pick up for a CD player or, identically, a £15 DVD drive and tell me that it is in any way less intricate or less difficult to manufacture than even a £2k MC cart... The difference being that probably 80% of the worlds population wants a DVD drive in their PC or DVD player for the telly and so the profit comes from the universal demand... The high end MC cart is easier to make but only maybe 1 in 100,000 people want one...

It would not surprise me if for big companies like Ortofon or Audio Technica if costs only say £10 to make a £200 cart and £20 to make a £2000 cart... and that the prices are entirely due to it being such a small market for such a niche product... I'll get my coat:D

[Arkless Electronics]

I have found with MM carts the sound is coloured / muddy
With high end mc carts they become more clinical / clear / crisp / defined , If you want to hear the music MC for me every time ;)

+1

[Bigman80]

I think it's budget dependant.

If you can spend £10k plus on a cartridge, phono stage and amplification, then another £2k on speakers, I am pretty sure the margin of difference in MC to MM would be substantially different. However at the level I'm playing at I'm not so sure.

I've never owned a high level MM and I'm currently using a ZYX bloom MC. Which is their introduction to High end (their description)

I have notice a difference but I upgraded my amp, speakers, interconnects, speaker wire and cartridge at the same time so who knows what's been the biggest difference in my system.

It does all sound very good now though

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

[farflungstar]

If you heard the allaerts in a top notch system I think you'd treatise the gob smacking difference between it and lesser/cheaper carts. I was blown away by the difference when I mounted it.

Adey

In perpetual pursuit.

[petrat]

Agreed Adey. IME, a good mm can sometimes out-perform a poor mc ... but a properly good mc is in a different league entirely.

[farflungstar]

How's the Grado Peter?
I think there are some excellent mid priced MC that perform very very well but which are ultimately limited by price. An AT cart produced in the hundreds of thousands on a production line in Japan can never possess the refinement of character of a hand built cart that is made by a craftsman who truly takes pride in what they build and the results of their labour. The Allaerts is one such cart, as is the Miyajima Shilabe which is waiting in its box to be mounted tomorrow.

I'm not saying that at 10k the law of diminishing returns doesn't kick in but the difference between an excellent mid priced cart at £800 and a excellent 3k cart is revelatory, in my experience.

Adey

In perpetual pursuit.

[montesquieu]

Agreed Adey. IME, a good mm can sometimes out-perform a poor mc ... but a properly good mc is in a different league entirely.

Absolutley - when everything is in place - TT, arm, phono stage, as well as downstream of course - a serious MC is unquestionably worth it.

Also agree on MM - the majority of budget/low-end MCs can be outperformed by the best MMs for the same sort of money or even a bit less, and do away with step-ups, extra cables etc.

[petrat]

How's the Grado Peter?

Well, on a sample of two (your modified Grado and a previously-owned Cartridgeman MusicMaker), it's looking like I seem to prefer moving iron cartridges to moving magnets. The Grado turns out to be a great match with a 'lowly' 10 inch Jelco 250 ... certainly much better than mc carts I've tried on it, most probably due to higher compliance not transmitting as much energy into the arm. As pointed out above, high-performance mc's make demands on all the partnering equipment.

[Mikeandvan]

Been listening t a myriad of cartridges lately and wondering to myself just much better expensive Moving Coil cartridges than some cheaper options or even Moving Magnets. Very much a topic worthy of debate methinks. Let's not forget that once the transition is made between MM to MC then better electronics to amplify the minuscule signal is needed as well as the leap in price of the device itself. Does it bare comparison to the views of cable sceptics?:scratch:
Not if you have a habit of getting drunk and playing records......................

[petrat]

Not if you have a habit of getting drunk and playing records......................

:cool: :nono:

[Mikeandvan]

I guess it could be said that as a MC cart, when taken reductio ad absurdum, is nothing more complicated than two small coils of wire being waggled in front of a magnet by a cantilever bearing a stylus at the far end.... As such, the innards of a £200 and £2000 example are virtually identical. I'm going to make a wild observation that there should be no reason that MC cart of "as good as it gets" quality could not be offered for sale at say £250... and that maybe cheaper, less competent examples are deliberately held back in their performance in order to give an upgrade path of increasing profitability for the manufacturers...

Look at the precision micro engineering involved in a laser pick up for a CD player or, identically, a £15 DVD drive and tell me that it is in any way less intricate or less difficult to manufacture than even a £2k MC cart... The difference being that probably 80% of the worlds population wants a DVD drive in their PC or DVD player for the telly and so the profit comes from the universal demand... The high end MC cart is easier to make but only maybe 1 in 100,000 people want one...

It would not surprise me if for big companies like Ortofon or Audio Technica if costs only say £10 to make a £200 cart and £20 to make a £2000 cart... and that the prices are entirely due to it being such a small market for such a niche product... I'll get my coat:D

Exactly, but then most audiophile equipment is vastly overpriced.

[Dubster68]

Exactly, but then most audiophile equipment is vastly overpriced.


Very much so.

[Infinitely Baffled]

I'm not saying that at 10k the law of diminishing returns doesn't kick in but the difference between an excellent mid priced cart at £800 and a excellent 3k cart is revelatory, in my experience.

Adey

In perpetual pursuit.

This point merits a remark. I personally don't have the sort of money to buy a £3000 cartridge, but even if I did, I'm not sure I would think it was money well spent. The reason is this: in my experience, no matter what upgrade you bring to your system and how successful it is, it only takes a very short while before you no longer notice it. I'm not saying you no longer enjoy it, just that it becomes an accepted part of the sound of your system. You like it, but, hey, it's your system - that's just the way it sounds! If you are listening to the music - as opposed to listening to your system - then once the jaw-dropping wonder of your new upgrade has passed, you're just enjoying the sound it makes. Same as you did after your last upgrade, and the one before etc. etc. It is arguable that your overall level of musical enjoyment has not increased.

I'm not advocating that we should all have stuck with our Garrard SP25 Mk4s with Goldring G800 cartridge, because there is no point in upgrading. But we just have to realise WHY we are upgrading. The very fact that we are passing our sad small lives in front of a computer screen contributing to this - admittedly very good - forum, already means that we are deeply into this pastime and very engaged with all the aspects of it. It is no longer simply a means of listening to and enjoying music. It has become an end in its own right. That's fine, and nothing to be ashamed of. Owning a Ferrari isn't about getting from A to B any more; it has become something else. And that, I suggest, is also true of our fascination with hi-fi equipment. We are listening to music beautifully reproduced, of course, but we are also feeding our hunger for the technical, aesthetic and, yes, status-recognition payback it provides. And I'm sure that's normal, fine and healthy, but it leads me to this conclusion: the answer to the OP's question - whether upgrading from MM to MC is worthwhile - is probably "no" from a listening-to-music point of view, but "yes, from a pride-of-possession and system enjoyment point of view.
IB.

[shire]

This point merits a remark. I personally don't have the sort of money to buy a £3000 cartridge, but even if I did, I'm not sure I would think it was money well spent. The reason is this: in my experience, no matter what upgrade you bring to your system and how successful it is, it only takes a very short while before you no longer notice it. I'm not saying you no longer enjoy it, just that it becomes an accepted part of the sound of your system. You like it, but, hey, it's your system - that's just the way it sounds! If you are listening to the music - as opposed to listening to your system - then once the jaw-dropping wonder of your new upgrade has passed, you're just enjoying the sound it makes. Same as you did after your last upgrade, and the one before etc. etc. It is arguable that your overall level of musical enjoyment has not increased.

I'm not advocating that we should all have stuck with our Garrard SP25 Mk4s with Goldring G800 cartridge, because there is no point in upgrading. But we just have to realise WHY we are upgrading. The very fact that we are passing our sad small lives in front of a computer screen contributing to this - admittedly very good - forum, already means that we are deeply into this pastime and very engaged with all the aspects of it. It is no longer simply a means of listening to and enjoying music. It has become an end in its own right. That's fine, and nothing to be ashamed of. Owning a Ferrari isn't about getting from A to B any more; it has become something else. And that, I suggest, is also true of our fascination with hi-fi equipment. We are listening to music beautifully reproduced, of course, but we are also feeding our hunger for the technical, aesthetic and, yes, status-recognition payback it provides. And I'm sure that's normal, fine and healthy, but it leads me to this conclusion: the answer to the OP's question - whether upgrading from MM to MC is worthwhile - is probably "no" from a listening-to-music point of view, but "yes, from a pride-of-possession and system enjoyment point of view.
IB.

spot on summing up

[AlfaGTV]

Great post IB! +1!

[Firebottle]

Good post Gary but I'm not sure of the 'overall level of musical enjoyment has not increased' bit.

I've heard a smattering of the 'lower' priced MCs now (under a grand) plus Ali's rather wonderful MC at twice that price.
But ... I think the enjoyment of the music is heightened when you find a cart that draws you into it, gives you the boogie factor to go with it.

Jimbo's M55/jico sas certainly has it, and so does the DL-103 :D

[Mike Adams]

Whilst you may stop noticing the effect of new/better kit over time, you still hear its effect when reproducing music. Depending on what this is/how much closer to the real thing this puts you it may or my not be worth it...

There are some great value products out there and the 103 (ideally with some modifications) is definitely one of them. Obviously the market for £3k+ MCs is so limited so its also true that the value of these is more questionable, but if the rest of your system is finalised and of a standard to do justice to this, then it may well be worth it.

[farflungstar]

Obviously the performance of a Ferrari can't be compared with a Vauxhall Astra, from a performance, handling, satisfaction viewpoint. I agree that novelty wears off but it depends on whether you're truly satisfied with the sound being produced and your reasons for upgrading.

My philosophy is simple - use the best cart you can afford to pull out the music then use components to amplify it as purely as possible.

My reasons for upgrading are not driven by dissatisfaction or status - but by logical and incremental steps that take me closer to purity and therefore the musical experience. Which is the point I think.
Adey

In perpetual pursuit.

[sq225917]

High end carts are all hand made, only the body tends to be made by machine, but its all hand assembled, tested and tweaked. A Benz l.p. With boron canti, ruby cross coil former and cyber 2 line contact can't really be compared with a denon 103 that contains no exotic nowt.

Line contact styli are 20x the price of sphericals. I agree there's an awful lot of margin in a 3k mc, probably 2.5k off and various hands in the supply chain.

I favour the best2nd hand cart you can afford. Then get it rebuilt.

[Infinitely Baffled]

My reasons for upgrading are not driven by dissatisfaction.

This is my point exactly. We upgrade even though we are not in any way dissatisfied with our actual experience of listening to music.

However much money we have spent on our kit, we all know that there is something out there that will improve on its performance - that's a given. And it is that thought that gets us wanting to change and upgrade something. In other words we are upgrading our system (and I don't dispute that objectively it will probably sound better after the upgrade) but not necessarily upgrading our subjective listening satisfaction.

As I said in my earlier post, that's fine. They are two different things: the pleasure we get from our music (which is purely emotional) and the pleasure that we get from our system (which is tactile, aesthetic, personally emotionally reassuring and probably more besides). There is no reason why we shouldn't have and enjoy both things. It's allowed. But I still think they are two separate things and it helps (me, at least) to recognize that.
IB.

[montesquieu]

High end carts are all hand made, only the body tends to be made by machine, but its all hand assembled, tested and tweaked. A Benz l.p. With boron canti, ruby cross coil former and cyber 2 line contact can't really be compared with a denon 103 that contains no exotic nowt.

Line contact styli are 20x the price of sphericals. I agree there's an awful lot of margin in a 3k mc, probably 2.5k off and various hands in the supply chain.

I favour the best2nd hand cart you can afford. Then get it rebuilt.

My experience with replacing tips and cantilevers has been mixed. You might well get a nice cart back but it rarely sounds the same as a new original. Equally you might get something not a patch on the original. One reason why so many rebuilt cartridges are sold on within weeks of getting them back - you frequenty don't get back what you expected. I'm now extremely cautious of retips having had quite a number done at different time and been disappointed worse than 50% of the time.

As for getting used to the sound of high-end cartridges - yes you do get used to it, to the point where it's hard to go back. A couple of times I've found myself tight for cash and attempted a downgrade exercise - even with my present level of experiece though, and some cracking options to go 'back' to, I've found that very hard - I've ended up spending the money again to upgrade as soon as I could afford it.

[User211]

The problem with re-tipping is the temptation not to use the OEM to do it, as it is often a lot cheaper to go elsewhere e.g. Expert Stylus.

What you get back won't be the same as what you had beforehand. I'm not saying it won't be good, it just won't be 100% the same.

[Stryder5]

If the artist took the time and effort to produce, in their eyes, the best production they could surely we should strive to hear the music as intended?

[farflungstar]

As I said earlier in the thread there is no comparison between an AT or any other cart produced by the 100s of thousands on a production line of many employees and a hand made cart that is built by the designer to his exacting standards. Even expensive mass produced carts such as VDH can't compete with this level of attention and perfection in the manufacturing process. Like a Schroder you have to wait many months for your example but the wait is always worth it - no crooked cantilevers to worry about, no misaligned diamond etc. It's a different ballgame to 99% of carts on offer. Yes they are expensive but I don't consider 2-3k expensive when people are buying fuses at a ton a pop.
Adey

In perpetual pursuit.

[Arkless Electronics]

Exactly, but then most audiophile equipment is vastly overpriced.

Getting off topic here but it's horses for courses and apples need to be compared to apples...

As an example here, due to both it's high quality and the fact that I can only buy them in small quantities or one at a time, just the mains transformer for my new hybrid pre amp costs me £93 a go! You could buy a new 50WPC integrated amp from TEAC, Denon, what have you, for that (especially from the likes of Richer Sounds). The empty case costs me about £65 and takes me hours to do the hand drilling, filling etc after that. A cheap budget amp will be made mainly by robot and take maybe 1/2 an hour from start to finish to build... mine is point to point hand wired and what with everything being done by hand it takes a week to build one unit. Considering all this I would say the finished price of approx £1500 is very good VFM and that if you were buying the self same amp but made by a big manufacturer, going through a distributor and then a dealer it would be more like £4000...

By contrast, a Naim NAP250 is now £3600 in spite of the fact that it probably costs them half as much for the parts as it costs me for my hybrid pre amps parts and, although hand made, it's on a production line and takes, I'll guesstimate, 4 hours from start to finish to build. Yes they have much higher overheads than me but this will be cancelled out by their buying power meaning they pay half as much as me for the parts. You are paying twice the odds for the brand name basically.... and when a company moves production to China but keeps the selling price the same then more like four times the odds for a brand name...

People will, bizarrely to me at least, pay massively over the odds for a big brand name... probably for the known re-sale value but also for the name dropping value! The "I've got a Ferrari" effect probably doesn't work with a Pagani as no one but petrol heads has heard of them!

Caveat emptor, IMHO and YMMV of course!

[farflungstar]

I think you just illustrated my point arkless.grin
Adey

In perpetual pursuit.

[monkey.nut]

It really depends on what you want to achieve. In my case it was a seat at a live performance but in my own home. Unfortunately to achieve that costs money - a lot of it. You can't really just look at the price of a cartridge but rather how that fits into the rest of the system to achieve your requirements. For many I suspect (it was for me) the aim is to get the best bang for limited bucks but when/if you get the dosh you may like me want a seat at a live venue.

If you told me 10 years ago that I'd spend more than £3K on a cartridge I would have thought that you were bonkers but today my TT/arm/cart/phono would set you back £20K and compared to whats out there at much higher cost I think its a bargain. What you get off the record and some of mine go back to the 50/60s is amazing. On some of these old records there is little if any surface noise! Certainly not at the listening position. I have often got up when playing an unfamiliar LP thinking that the record had ended or the amplification had failed its that quiet. OK any damage or crud in the plastic will be heard but these older LPs must have been better manufactured than todays 180g discs.

Oh just for the record (he he) I didn't pay anything like £20K so it was an uber bargain.

MN

[Joe]

As with everything, it depends what you mean by 'worth it'. Will a £1,000 cartridge be ten times better than a £100 cartridge? Probably not, but it might be better enough for you to fork out the difference, assuming a) you can afford it b) the rest of the system is good enough to enable it to give its best and c) you play lots of records. I use an expensive MC cartridge (VdH Frog Gold), but my use of vinyl is relatively low these days, so I doubt I'd buy something as expensive if/when it needs replacing, even though I could easily afford to.

[Simon_Nottingham]

A really good discussion this.

I always remember something Tom Fletcher (Nottingham Analogue) told me a good few years ago: "spend more on records than record players".

[struth]

My last 2 purchases have been records. Spotify has changed my habits somewhat. I usually bought cds a lot; mostly 2nd hand via amazon traders, most of which were ok. but Now if i find something really super only do i buy it as I think spotify via headphones is very good on most music. Plus I have a fairly large collection of flac stuff on tap from pc too, so best of both worlds. If in mood and feeling ok I pop the record deck on through the main system. its sounding great and a shame its not getting more use tbh, but cans are addictive :D
The shure 55 on the deck is imo superb sounding and I do not miss any of my dearer carts.

[Floyddroid]

A really good discussion this.

I always remember something Tom Fletcher (Nottingham Analogue) told me a good few years ago: "spend more on records than record players".

He told me the same thing. Trouble is i spend a fortune on both ha ha. Great bloke though and a miss to the industry. An absolute gentleman. Like Les Wolstenholme and Bill Beard an absolute pleasure to do business with.

[User211]

The best cartridge I have owned is a Transfiguration Orpheus which I still have.

It is a shame, I think. It doesn't do the format any good. If the performance of that cartridge was available for £150 vinyl would be a far more realistic format. Never mind the phono stage LOL.

[dimkasta]

I have both MM and MC cartridges. My friends also have a variety of cartridges ranging from cheap MMs to expensive high end MC stuff.

And yes there is a difference. And in most cases it is not subtle. You have to go really high on money for diminishing returns to kick in. All is relevant though.
Money has different value for different people. And different people have different music tastes with different levels of recording fidelity and different systems.
Only you can decide what works for you.
No forum thread is going to give you a certain answer.

Just go out and listen to stuff.

[Floyddroid]

I have both MM and MC cartridges. My friends also have a variety of cartridges ranging from cheap MMs to expensive high end MC stuff.

And yes there is a difference. And in most cases it is not subtle. You have to go really high on money for diminishing returns to kick in. All is relevant though.
Money has different value for different people. And different people have different music tastes with different levels of recording fidelity and different systems.
Only you can decide what works for you.
No forum thread is going to give you a certain answer.

Just go out and listen to stuff.

Good reply.

[plastic penguin]

I know I'll get slagged off for this, but there's only so far you can go with a cartridge. If you're pushing the limits of your table, a better cart will improve things... up to a point.

With my budget Pro-ject I wouldn't go any higher up the chain than my ClearAudio Concept cart IMHO.

[Simon_Nottingham]

I know I'll get slagged off for this, but there's only so far you can go with a cartridge.

I doubt you'll get slagged off. A £2,000 cart on a budget Pro-ject through £500 worth of amp and speakers would be silly. You need to spread the cash about. But there is an argument (which makes sense to me) that the first part of the chain (i.e. the cart) is the most important part; though may would argue that the deck & arm are the key part.

Ooh, it's not easy is it?

[Bigman80]

I know I'll get slagged off for this, but there's only so far you can go with a cartridge. If you're pushing the limits of your table, a better cart will improve things... up to a point.

With my budget Pro-ject I wouldn't go any higher up the chain than my ClearAudio Concept cart IMHO.
What would you go to if you had a SP10 or PLC-590 ?



Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

[AlfaGTV]

What's considered "expensive"?

To most of my friends that would mean, say, my DL-103 at around £200.
On the other hand, my good friend who's into music would most likely consider my Benz LP-S "value" oriented compared to his Lyra Atlas!!!

That said, to me i i think there's a sweetspot in VFM and real gains in vinyl reproduction up to at somewhere around £1000.

I'd be very pleased with say a Benz Wood SL, Lyra Delos or possibly a Dynavector XX-2 MkII. From what ive heard at friends there are several very good alternatives at around that cost like ZYX and Transfiguration.
How much does one loose out on when compared to a DL-103 then? Hmmm... I'm spinning LPs using my Pink Triangle LPT/Technoarm\DL-103SA right now and i don't miss much.

And heres where my point comes in; Select your phono stage with much care and be prepared to spend some serious funds. A very good phono stage will lift any decent cart to a different level!
(And of course we could go on with the reasoning concerning both the deck and the tone arm too... :))

[dimkasta]

I know I'll get slagged off for this, but there's only so far you can go with a cartridge. If you're pushing the limits of your table, a better cart will improve things... up to a point.

With my budget Pro-ject I wouldn't go any higher up the chain than my ClearAudio Concept cart IMHO.

I wouldn't be so quick to put such psychological limits to turntables.
I have seen cheap turntables sing very nicely with nice MCs.

If money was not an issue, I would upgrade my cart over my turntable without hesitation

[walpurgis]

I have seen cheap turntables sing very nicely with nice MCs.

So have I.

[Simon_Nottingham]

I wouldn't be so quick to put such psychological limits to turntables.
I have seen cheap turntables sing very nicely with nice MCs.

If money was not an issue, I would upgrade my cart over my turntable without hesitation

To what level though? What sort of ratio do you think is sensible in terms of deck : arm : cart

Mine sits at 1,000 : 900 : 300 (though I bought the Spacedeck nearly 30 years ago, so it was less than that and I'm estimating the price bearing in mind that the current Ace Space is 1,500).

Looks like I could benefit from a cartridge upgrade...

[walpurgis]

To what level though? What sort of ratio do you think is sensible in terms of deck : arm : cart

Here's a sort of example. A humble Connoisseur BD1 turntable, with a Mission 774 arm and a lovely Technics EPC-305MC cartridge.

http://i64.tinypic.com/m9n0og.jpg

The BD1 cost a mere £8.40 in kit form around 1971. And the Technics MC is probably on a par with a modern £800 to £1000 cartridge.

[farflungstar]

I have the SP10 mk2 with upgraded circuitry and the heavy tenuto platter mat - as close to mk3 status as it's possible to go without blowing 10k on an actual mk3. As a deck it is sonically neutral, with zero noise, perfect pitch and speed stability - as such it provides a near perfect platform for music reproduction and deserves the best arm and cart I can afford because it isn't a limiting factor in any way. The limiting factor is the arm/cart.

My Siggwan (the only gimballed example) arm isn't well known over here but is considered up there with the best soundwise by many on the other side of the globe - it deserves the best cart I can manage, synergy etc being taken into account, because again it provides an excellent platform. It's logical to put the best cart possible onto it.

The Vida phonostage is the perfect phonostage for me and fully able to do any level of front end justice.

The magic (read as major leap in reproduction) tends to come in between £2000 - £5000 for carts (hand built). After that it's the law of diminishing returns.

Just my opinion.
Adey

In perpetual pursuit.

[dimkasta]

I have not auditioned the Spacedeck, but my feeling is that you are underestimating it... a lot...


To what level though? What sort of ratio do you think is sensible in terms of deck : arm : cart

I see where you 're coming from. Having a general ratio in mind keeps the system balanced and helps parts compliment each other's performance.
But it will be arbitrary. Performance and especially matching rarely goes hand in hand with price.
I would not hesitate to spend 2 or three times my turntable's value on a cartridge (and I have). Same for the tonearm (I will as soon as I get some money :) ).
But again, that is just arbitrary. You might get better results for less money than we have. Or you might get them for more, but consider the price too much.

I would start by looking at the mass of my tonearm and see what cartridge compliance I should aim at. Then I would consider what output my phono can adequately support. And then start auditioning and reading about cartridges that fit the above, according to my budget.

But no-one can know what will click for you, or at what level you will perceive diminishing returns kick in for your system, music and room.

[Simon_Nottingham]

I have not auditioned the Spacedeck, but my feeling is that you are underestimating it... a lot...

I'm really not. I absolutely love my Spacedeck.

I feel the same about it as Adrian, above, does about his SP10 (and God, those mk3s do go for crazy money!) in that I think it's very neutral. I bought the deck from Tom Fletcher with some redundancy money when I was about 19 (I'm 46 now) . It just seemed the most sensible approach to record player design: the motor isn't powerful enough to spin up the platter, thus it doesn't interfere with it - it just helps it along. And it's heavy and solid - I've never got along with those bouncy record players!

I had the original arm on it till a year or so ago. I got the Ace Space arm direct from NA as a second and it's completely transformed the deck, but the essential quality of the Spacedeck is still there - or rather it isn't - it's (to me at least) completely invisible. And the Grado cart - to my mind the best you can get for the money.

I auditioned the Firebottle phono stage recently and it really did improve the sound, but did it improve it by £400? I don't know. Would I be better selling the Grado and putting the £400 towards a better cart... or get the Firebottle (which I know improves things) and upgrade the cart later? If I'm going to do that, should I get the MM/MC one (£100 more)...?

It's tricky and there is always a tendency (with me at least) to aim for the horizon.

Still, the other half is away and I've had an evening of digging out records she doesn't like (Flaming Lips (Yoshimi on right now), Dredd Zeppelin, Big Audio Dynamite) and enjoying them. Really enjoying them - and that's what we do this for :-)

I bloody love listening to music!

[dimkasta]

I bloody love listening to music!

Yeap :)

Just spend the money on records and keep smiling :D

If uncertain, wait a month before you buy something.
Even better, I recently saw a nice suggestion in a shoe forum. If you don't say "Hell yeah" when trying something, then don' t buy it.

Upgraditis is chronic and usually goes as fast as it came if you ignore it :D

[plastic penguin]

What would you go to if you had a SP10 or PLC-590 ?



Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

Presumably you are referring to a Technics SP10. I wouldn't go any higher than, let's say, Nagaoka MP300 or a Grado Signature. Above those carts I would look at MCs, but would the Technics turntable justify any cart above £600? Not saying it would be worth such expense. You need to draw the line at some point.

[plastic penguin]

I wouldn't be so quick to put such psychological limits to turntables.
I have seen cheap turntables sing very nicely with nice MCs.

If money was not an issue, I would upgrade my cart over my turntable without hesitation

I've got a more expensive MM than the original Ortofon. But would I go higher? I would be very reluctant without a better TT.

Would you be happy to pair a 2k CDP with a 1k amp, or would that be an overkill?

[struth]

sp10 is a very good table.

[montesquieu]

Presumably you are referring to a Technics SP10. I wouldn't go any higher than, let's say, Nagaoka MP300 or a Grado Signature. Above those carts I would look at MCs, but would the Technics turntable justify any cart above £600? Not saying it would be worth such expense. You need to draw the line at some point.

Eh? The SP10 is a true high end deck, properly set up you'd do well to get a modern deck to equal it for under £5k. I've heard several very nice ones, not least Speedy Steve's running £2k Ortofon SPUs with an FR64S.

[walpurgis]

Eh? The SP10 is a true high end deck, properly set up you'd do well to get a modern deck to equal it for under £5k. I've heard several very nice ones, not least Speedy Steve's running £2k Ortofon SPUs with an FR64S.

Agree. The SP10 is a class act.

[dimkasta]

I've got a more expensive MM than the original Ortofon. But would I go higher? I would be very reluctant without a better TT.

Would you be happy to pair a 2k CDP with a 1k amp, or would that be an overkill?

If its sound justifies the cost and it's within your budget, then no it's not an overkill.
Why settle with an inferior item just because its price matches your existing equipment?

[walpurgis]

A cartridge cannot be too good. There's no limit. However, it can be too expensive.

I'd seriously like a ZYX Premium Omega, but it ain't going to happen. In the past, I've drawn the line at around a grand for a cartridge and that will not happen again, as I'm downgrading my vinyl side of things. I simply do not play records enough to justify a substantial investment here any more.

[Arkless Electronics]

Agree. The SP10 is a class act.

+1

[colonel]

A well maintained SP-10 with an appropriate arm is worthy of ANY cartridge, up to and including the very best.

As for ultra high end cartridges, some of them are worth every penny. Others not. IMHO

[martinjohn308]

Well these last couple of years I've swapped and sold quite a bit of my Hi Fi kit. I now have reached where I want to be.

Turntable: LP 12, Stiletto plinth, Plateau sub chassis, Trampoline my 2, Aro, Kiseki Blue NS cartridge, Armeggedon power supply. Interconnects are Epiphany Acoustic Artratus 3.

Phono stage : Paradise

Pre amp : Avondale Audio Grad 1with TPX 2 power supply.

Amplifiers : Witch Hat moon light monos.

CD player: Naim CDS with XPS power supply.

Tuner : Naim 101 with Snaps power supply.

Speakers : Linn Isobariks DMS using Van Damme Toure black 2.5mm speaker cable.

During the course of 30 years of owning an LP 12 I've had numerous arms and cartridges. From an SME, Hadcock, Grace, 3 Ittok, finally 10 years ago an Aro.

Cartridges, Shure V15 3, Decca London Gold, Supex, Asak, Asak T, 3 Karmas, Dynavector 20 LV, Micro Benz Wood SL, finally a Kiseki Blue NS.

The Paradise, LP 12 with the Kiseki and the Grad 1 has lifted my LP's to a new level, I'm hearing things on albums that I've had for over 40 years instruments that I didn't know that were there. The Kiseki is an absolute gem with the Aro then I suppose £1700 on a cartridge it should be.

Regards,

Martin

[TheMooN]

Presumably you are referring to a Technics SP10. I wouldn't go any higher than, let's say, Nagaoka MP300 or a Grado Signature. Above those carts I would look at MCs, but would the Technics turntable justify any cart above £600? Not saying it would be worth such expense. You need to draw the line at some point.

Would you care to elaborate further regarding your considerations of the SP10 ?

[Sherwood]

I guess it could be said that as a MC cart, when taken reductio ad absurdum, is nothing more complicated than two small coils of wire being waggled in front of a magnet by a cantilever bearing a stylus at the far end.... As such, the innards of a £200 and £2000 example are virtually identical. I'm going to make a wild observation that there should be no reason that MC cart of "as good as it gets" quality could not be offered for sale at say £250... and that maybe cheaper, less competent examples are deliberately held back in their performance in order to give an upgrade path of increasing profitability for the manufacturers...

Look at the precision micro engineering involved in a laser pick up for a CD player or, identically, a £15 DVD drive and tell me that it is in any way less intricate or less difficult to manufacture than even a £2k MC cart... The difference being that probably 80% of the worlds population wants a DVD drive in their PC or DVD player for the telly and so the profit comes from the universal demand... The high end MC cart is easier to make but only maybe 1 in 100,000 people want one...

It would not surprise me if for big companies like Ortofon or Audio Technica if costs only say £10 to make a £200 cart and £20 to make a £2000 cart... and that the prices are entirely due to it being such a small market for such a niche product... I'll get my coat:D

Jez,

the challenge for any profit maximising firm is to extract the maximum payment from each individual subject to their willingness (and ability) to pay. Products such as potatoes are relatively homogenous (La Bonnotte excluded) so that it is difficult to operate differential pricing: the price paid is the same for all. The challenge is to find some way of persuading some consumers to pay over and above the standard rate for a product. Various machiavellian techniques can be employed most of which prey upon the vanity or ego of the potential consumer. For example, implying that the more expensive variant makes one more attractive to or successful with the opposite sex; that it enhances sexual prowess; or confers an aura of success or superiority. Others trade on the rarity of the materials used or the craftsmanship of production (e.g. exotic hand carved hardwoods).

Obviously, hifi is different to potatoes in that products are heterogeneous and that performance improvements are possible with better materials, better engineering and better design. However, whilst performance is quickly subject to the principle of diminishing marginal improvements: pricing strategies need not be. Whereas the production costs of a basic cartridge may represent 35% of its retail price, the cost of a more esoteric design will inevitably be lower percentage. Don't get me started on cables or the "tweak" market. The inflated prices that can be charged for exotic products is not primarily due to the small size of the market but to the fact that within the pool of prospective purchasers there are those willing to pay more for products that elevate their status as purchasers. Yes, there may be performance improvements in the more expensive products but those improvements are more aligned to manufacturing costs than they are to retail prices.

Having said that, keep an eye out for my soon to be released MC cartridge: the EYMBETTERNU! Carved from a solid block of Unicorn horn and carved by Elvish nymphs, this revolutionary device uses a cantilever forged from the spines of albino porcupines. The stylus is formed from the teeth of Vienna Boys choristers. The magnets and all wiring will be formed from material in a capsule ejected from the Philae lander just before its batteries failed (ETA: March 2022). Purchasers will receive a certificate of extreme gullibility and will be ridiculed mercilessly as I sip Chateau de Chasselas 1942!

No need to get your coat, I'm with you on this!

Geoff

[Arkless Electronics]

:lol::eyebrows: Save me a '59 margaux and I'll throw in some magic beans so the first 10 lucky purchasers can grow a garden of gullibility:eyebrows:

[Qwin]

Whereas the production costs of a basic cartridge may represent 35% of its retail price, the cost of a more esoteric design will inevitably be lower percentage.

:eek: You've got to be kidding.

The more technical the product in terms of number and complexity of processes, the bigger the difference between build costs and consumer price. Your 35% is way off the mark, even for the first hand over in the supply chain.

I've designed several low tech products for direct sales companies (Manufacturer to customer with no middle men) and the rule of thumb was, if we cant make more than 500% mark up, its not worth the effort.

From the other end, dealer networks are notorious for hiking up the price, but they have to make a living. Making a twenty quid profit on a cartridge and only selling half a dozen a year wouldn't be worth their while. So you have to be realistic about where the prices come from.
As an example, I designed some vitreous enamelled cast Iron sanitary ware, quite a while back now, it involved a blast furnace and enamelling plant, a huge factory and work force. It cost about £17 to make a Bath, dependant on model. They were sold to the dealers and plumbers merchants for about £70 a throw, who basically rented a showroom with storage and then charged the public £399 for the Bath.
So £17 to make - sells for £399.

That was with just one link in the distribution chain.

The further you go up the price range, the fewer that will be sold, so you charge much more to cover the high set up costs per item or for the large amount of labour if its hand made (by far the most expensive overhead) and that multiplies up through the sales chain, hence the exotic prices. Something that costs twice as much to make does not end up twice the price on the shelves, more like x10. Its sad but true.

[Sherwood]

:eek: You've got to be kidding.

The more technical the product in terms of number and complexity of processes, the bigger the difference between build costs and consumer price. Your 35% is way off the mark, even for the first hand over in the supply chain.

I've designed several low tech products for direct sales companies (Manufacturer to customer with no middle men) and the rule of thumb was, if we cant make more than 500% mark up, its not worth the effort.

From the other end, dealer networks are notorious for hiking up the price, but they have to make a living. Making a twenty quid profit on a cartridge and only selling half a dozen a year wouldn't be worth their while. So you have to be realistic about where the prices come from.
As an example, I designed some vitreous enamelled cast Iron sanitary ware, quite a while back now, it involved a blast furnace and enamelling plant, a huge factory and work force. It cost about £17 to make a Bath, dependant on model. They were sold to the dealers and plumbers merchants for about £70 a throw, who basically rented a showroom with storage and then charged the public £399 for the Bath.
So £17 to make - sells for £399.

That was with just one link in the distribution chain.

The further you go up the price range, the fewer that will be sold, so you charge much more to cover the high set up costs per item or for the large amount of labour if its hand made (by far the most expensive overhead) and that multiplies up through the sales chain, hence the exotic prices. Something that costs twice as much to make does not end up twice the price on the shelves, more like x10. Its sad but true.

Ken,

I was being generous in my figures and was factoring in all costs including marketing, distribution and overheads though admittedly I should have made that clearer. Even then, you are right about the astronomical mark ups, even for run of the mill products. Your figures, drawn from personal experience make my point even more strongly.

Yes, there are costs to holding inventory especially with low-turnover high ticket items though my recent purchasing experience entailed products being shipped to me direct from the factory rather than from the retailer who sold the items. I guess this explains the growing success of direct sales ventures cutting out the distributors and the retailers and the mark-ups they levy. As an economist who has spent most of his working career working on international health in the developing world I find the whole business morally repugnant. In the real world the worth of a product is ultimately determined by what someone is willing to pay for it! Although, hifi and music is one of my few luxuries (not really into cars or other conspicuous consumption) I still feel guilty when I splash out on a "pricey" new component. All power to those on this forum who manufacture their own designs and sell for modest mark-ups. Although I am not a Marxist there is something honourable in the notion that the "price" of a product should primarily reflect the effort that goes into its production.

My point is less to do with the difference between costs and price per se than the fact that the ratio increases as one moves up the hifi ladder. I guess if there are people willing and able to pay prices for exotic products that are grossly disproportionate to performance levels we should be looking at the underlying distribution of income and wealth rather than the cumulative mark-ups of the hifi business!

Come the revolution ..........

Geoff

[farflungstar]

The SP10 with just a little fettling (nowt in comparison to an idler like the Lenco) and good plinth is worthy of the best cart available - it adds no sonic flavour of its own, it supports the vinyl perfectly, it turns at precisely the correct speed without deviation and it is utterly consistent in performance. As such it provides the perfect platform for any arm or cart.

Adey

In perpetual pursuit.

[TheMooN]

Adrian.....Would you mind running through the circuit modifications to your SP10 , or link to the same please.

[farflungstar]

I had a techy upgrade/update the power supply and replace most components in the deck itself. He did change the PSU and i can ask what he did....

Adey

In perpetual pursuit.

[Arkless Electronics]

Ken,

I was being generous in my figures and was factoring in all costs including marketing, distribution and overheads though admittedly I should have made that clearer. Even then, you are right about the astronomical mark ups, even for run of the mill products. Your figures, drawn from personal experience make my point even more strongly.

Yes, there are costs to holding inventory especially with low-turnover high ticket items though my recent purchasing experience entailed products being shipped to me direct from the factory rather than from the retailer who sold the items. I guess this explains the growing success of direct sales ventures cutting out the distributors and the retailers and the mark-ups they levy. As an economist who has spent most of his working career working on international health in the developing world I find the whole business morally repugnant. In the real world the worth of a product is ultimately determined by what someone is willing to pay for it! Although, hifi and music is one of my few luxuries (not really into cars or other conspicuous consumption) I still feel guilty when I splash out on a "pricey" new component. All power to those on this forum who manufacture their own designs and sell for modest mark-ups. Although I am not a Marxist there is something honourable in the notion that the "price" of a product should primarily reflect the effort that goes into its production.

My point is less to do with the difference between costs and price per se than the fact that the ratio increases as one moves up the hifi ladder. I guess if there are people willing and able to pay prices for exotic products that are grossly disproportionate to performance levels we should be looking at the underlying distribution of income and wealth rather than the cumulative mark-ups of the hifi business!

Come the revolution ..........

Geoff

I'm with you on all that and try to do just that with my own products. I am a bit of a Marxist though... well a socialist anyway:)

Ultimately the buyers have only themselves to blame though as, IME, many will put "Big Brand Name, glossy brochures, glossy reviews in national/international Hi Fi magazines" above pretty much everything else... This, combined with buying from dealers, means they pay well over the odds. Caveat emptor.

[Sherwood]

I'm with you on all that and try to do just that with my own products. I am a bit of a Marxist though... well a socialist anyway:)

Ultimately the buyers have only themselves to blame though as, IME, many will put "Big Brand Name, glossy brochures, glossy reviews in national/international Hi Fi magazines" above pretty much everything else... This, combined with buying from dealers, means they pay well over the odds. Caveat emptor.

You are right, though in defence of the consumer it is difficult to establish which are the real bargains in hifi. Whilst forums such as AOS provide a platform for satisfied consumers to endorse artisanal products, it may still be difficult to validate these opinions or to confirm that the product will work well in a particular system. I wonder if AOS has had a thread on system synergies: highlighting particular combinations where the sum is greater than the parts.

Geoff

[Arkless Electronics]

You are right, though in defence of the consumer it is difficult to establish which are the real bargains in hifi. Whilst forums such as AOS provide a platform for satisfied consumers to endorse artisanal products, it may still be difficult to validate these opinions or to confirm that the product will work well in a particular system. I wonder if AOS has had a thread on system synergies: highlighting particular combinations where the sum is greater than the parts.

Geoff

IMHO that is such a tenuous and potentially dodgy matter as to be possibly worse than useless..... "one man's meat is another man's poison" etc I'm sure I can't be alone in having heard some bizarrely wrong sounding systems where, eg the owner has a problem with what they believe is "edginess and brightness" (in fact they just don't like normal treble!) and has chosen kit such as their system sounds like the tweeters have been disconnected... or the opposite... or far too much/too little bass etc etc

[Sherwood]

IMHO that is such a tenuous and potentially dodgy matter as to be possibly worse than useless..... "one man's meat is another man's poison" etc I'm sure I can't be alone in having heard some bizarrely wrong sounding systems where, eg the owner has a problem with what they believe is "edginess and brightness" (in fact they just don't like normal treble!) and has chosen kit such as their system sounds like the tweeters have been disconnected... or the opposite... or far too much/too little bass etc etc

Yes, there is always a high degree of subjectivity but in my experience I have come across some combinations of components that really gel together, as well as some that work well as single components in other systems but just sound awful together. One particularly strong synergy is between my Rogers LS35a speakers and my Art Audio Quintet valve amplifier. Although the LS35a speakers can sound good when driven by powerful solid state amps, I have always found them to sound better with tubes and with the Art Audio in particular. That said, now that I no longer live in an apartments or a house with thin walls I would not choose the LS35a design. But that's going off topic a bit ....

[Arkless Electronics]

Yes, there is always a high degree of subjectivity but in my experience I have come across some combinations of components that really gel together, as well as some that work well as single components in other systems but just sound awful together. One particularly strong synergy is between my Rogers LS35a speakers and my Art Audio Quintet valve amplifier. Although the LS35a speakers can sound good when driven by powerful solid state amps, I have always found them to sound better with tubes and with the Art Audio in particular. That said, now that I no longer live in an apartments or a house with thin walls I would not choose the LS35a design. But that's going off topic a bit ....

I guess I'm more of a "system is as good as the weakest link" man than "a synergist" but yes there can be something in it at times... too system and individual taste dependent to be worth making a list of good partnerings though, IMHO.

[TheMooN]

I had a techy upgrade/update the power supply and replace most components in the deck itself. He did change the PSU and i can ask what he did....

Adey

In perpetual pursuit.

I would be most interested Adey.

[Arkless Electronics]

In the continual pursuit of income etc I'll say that I can do any PSU upgrades, rebuilds, custom builds etc etc for turntables as well as for any other item ;)

[paulf-2007]

Naturally I disagree with many here but then what a boring world it would be if we all liked the same things. What I consider expensive carts say Audio note Io and Koetsu I find laid back and boring, as are some of the set ups they are likely to be used with. I am not over awed by set ups just because they cost in the tens of thousands of pounds either. A Benz wood SL was probably the most expensive cart I've owned and very nice it was too but now I am more than happy with a Shure ultra 500 and even quite like a denon 103 although I've not used mine since getting the Shure. I believe that you can spend whatever you're comfortable with as it's everyone's own business but if your room is untreated you can continue to throw money at upgrades and never really get the best out of anything your hard earned buys you. My two penneth.

[Floyddroid]

Been hearing good things said of the AT-33PTG/II Stereo moving coil

[Infinitely Baffled]

Been hearing good things said of the AT-33PTG/II Stereo moving coil
And quite right too! It is remarkable for the money. A real bargain!
IB

[nthall]

The DL-103R is good enough for me. The plain DL-103 is good too. I noticed a big enough difference between the two to recommend the price difference. All of the AT carts I've tried just don't meld well with my speakers. They sound harsh and shrill. I've heard them sound good on other's systems.

Anything I've tried that cost any more than the DL-103R hasn't really made a big enough difference that I thought they were worth the price. I don't have $50,000 worth of gear after the cartridge either, so I may or may not be missing out.

The two versions of the 103, the DL-110, and a Shure M-91ED are the cartridges I have that get the most use.

I don't think the Shure is a really excellent cart, but it has a sound that I enjoy with certain music. It's the only vintage cart I ever use anymore, and I have tons of them.

I like the DL-110 for records that are less than pristine. It's a lot more forgiving than the 103.



Sent from my Z981 using Tapatalk

[Chivas]

This point merits a remark. I personally don't have the sort of money to buy a £3000 cartridge, but even if I did, I'm not sure I would think it was money well spent. The reason is this: in my experience, no matter what upgrade you bring to your system and how successful it is, it only takes a very short while before you no longer notice it. I'm not saying you no longer enjoy it, just that it becomes an accepted part of the sound of your system. You like it, but, hey, it's your system - that's just the way it sounds! If you are listening to the music - as opposed to listening to your system - then once the jaw-dropping wonder of your new upgrade has passed, you're just enjoying the sound it makes. Same as you did after your last upgrade, and the one before etc. etc. It is arguable that your overall level of musical enjoyment has not increased.

I'm not advocating that we should all have stuck with our Garrard SP25 Mk4s with Goldring G800 cartridge, because there is no point in upgrading. But we just have to realise WHY we are upgrading. The very fact that we are passing our sad small lives in front of a computer screen contributing to this - admittedly very good - forum, already means that we are deeply into this pastime and very engaged with all the aspects of it. It is no longer simply a means of listening to and enjoying music. It has become an end in its own right. That's fine, and nothing to be ashamed of. Owning a Ferrari isn't about getting from A to B any more; it has become something else. And that, I suggest, is also true of our fascination with hi-fi equipment. We are listening to music beautifully reproduced, of course, but we are also feeding our hunger for the technical, aesthetic and, yes, status-recognition payback it provides. And I'm sure that's normal, fine and healthy, but it leads me to this conclusion: the answer to the OP's question - whether upgrading from MM to MC is worthwhile - is probably "no" from a listening-to-music point of view, but "yes, from a pride-of-possession and system enjoyment point of view.
IB.

Good post this


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Clive197]

Been hearing good things said of the AT-33PTG/II Stereo moving coil

+1

[nthall]

Every AT cartridge I've tried sounds brutal through my speakers. They don't mix well with horn tweeters. The highs come out twice as hot as the mids and lows. I could probably fix it by bi-amping. I don't think external crossovers would kill it.

Sent from my Z981 using Tapatalk

[Arkless Electronics]

That say's more about the speakers than the cartridge....

[nthall]

That say's more about the speakers than the cartridge....
Not necessarily. The highs aren't that hot on any other cartridges I've tried. I think it has more to do with liking to listen loud. It's just not a good pairing. I've heard them sound excellent on other speakers. I've heard cartridges that sound good on mine sound lifeless on other speakers. I don't think they're bad, they just don't fit my system. I haven't found a universal cartridge yet. I swap headshells for different styles of music all the time.

I know people that swear by the old Pickerings, and I've never thought they sounded exceptional at all.

Sent from my Z981 using Tapatalk

[paulf-2007]

I've not owned many carts, DL110 sounded exciting initially but I tired of it, not saying that's necessarily the cart but may have been the set up. SAE1000LT, still use one in my office and excellent at its price point. Benz Wood SL, very nice and not laid back like some have said, sold it to simplify my set up and not need a step up. AT95, stunning at its price point, mine has an aluminum body, it's not potted and I couldn't say it's much different for it. Had a 103 as I wanted to know what all the fuss was about, very nice but someone was looking for one so I sold it. Have 103R and like it but since getting a Shure Ultra 500 in a Martin bastin body I've not wanted for anything else. Have a Victor z1s I got with a table and a Victor z4s given free with my Stax arm. As far as I can remember that's it.

[nthall]

I just had the tip fall off of a DL-110. I would be a lot more upset if I had paid $1000 bucks for it. I got a little over two years out of it. I've laid it down on some rough albums though. That's something I wouldn't do with a more expensive cartridge either.

Sent from my Z981 using Tapatalk

[nthall]

I take back my disdain of AT cartridges. This new 740ML I just put on sounds pretty good. It's a MM though.

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[anubisgrau]

I just had the tip fall off of a DL-110. I would be a lot more upset if I had paid $1000 bucks for it.

if 110 would cost a grand, they would probably use a better glue

[nthall]

if 110 would cost a grand, they would probably use a better glue
I would hope so. My turntables see a lot of action though. When I'm at home there is usually one spinning. I play other media too but not as often.

[helma]

Every AT cartridge I've tried sounds brutal through my speakers. They don't mix well with horn tweeters. The highs come out twice as hot as the mids and lows. I could probably fix it by bi-amping. I don't think external crossovers would kill it.


What are you using for a phono stage & interconnects (between arm & phono stage)? The ATs are quite sensitive to capacitance and generally going as low as possible gives the best results with them. They recommend 100-200pF and I second that. The higher you go the peakier and more aggressive the treble gets. The problem is many phono stages have as high as 220pF input capacitance and when you add the tonearm wiring and cabling to that, you're over 300pF or even 400pF already, which is a sure way to make the ATs sound harsh and bright if your system has any tendencies that way.

[nthall]

What are you using for a phono stage & interconnects (between arm & phono stage)? The ATs are quite sensitive to capacitance and generally going as low as possible gives the best results with them. They recommend 100-200pF and I second that. The higher you go the peakier and more aggressive the treble gets. The problem is many phono stages have as high as 220pF input capacitance and when you add the tonearm wiring and cabling to that, you're over 300pF or even 400pF already, which is a sure way to make the ATs sound harsh and bright if your system has any tendencies that way.
It depends on the day of the week. I've tried them on quite a few tables. Most of them have had the tonearms rewired, and have good interconnects attached to them. That's the only area that I really don't have an issue spending money on cables.

I've tried quite a few different phono stages. Again nothing ultra high end, but most have been good. I've ran them through the stages in just about every type of integrated receiver. Diy stages too. I change stuff in and out constantly. I like hearing the differences.

I think it's just a combination enjoying it loud, my speakers, and those cartridges trending towards the bright side. When I said brutal I should have been more clear. The highs overpower everything else to the point where it's just uncomfortable.

The new MM AT cart I got sounds great. It isn't fully broken in yet, but it sounds level across the whole range.

[Floyddroid]

I bit the bullet and bought meself an AT33 PTG/II. First impressions are excellent. One of the best cartridges iv'e had in a while. Well chuffed with it. Works well with the rest of my kit and gives an even balance across the frequency range and genres of music. Over a hundred quid cheaper than the Hana i was going to buy following it's price increase. glad i took the plunge. Here it is in situ at Droid towers...

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r209/progmeister1/AT33_zps3cbid0lr.jpg (http://s145.photobucket.com/user/progmeister1/media/AT33_zps3cbid0lr.jpg.html)

[paulf-2007]

What did you pay for it Steve?

[Floyddroid]

£420 from my local dealer. I could have bought one from Juno records for £380 but i was uncertain if it was NOS and there was reports of channel in-balance in the first batch of the II's. I trust my dealer implicitly. It pisses all over my 103.
What did you pay for it Steve?

[Bigman80]

I bit the bullet and bought meself an AT33 PTG/II. First impressions are excellent. One of the best cartridges iv'e had in a while. Well chuffed with it. Works well with the rest of my kit and gives an even balance across the frequency range and genres of music. Over a hundred quid cheaper than the Hana i was going to buy following it's price increase. glad i took the plunge. Here it is in situ at Droid towers...

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r209/progmeister1/AT33_zps3cbid0lr.jpg (http://s145.photobucket.com/user/progmeister1/media/AT33_zps3cbid0lr.jpg.html)
Looks perfect doesn't it. They sound great too. Enjoy !

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

[CageyH]

There was a guy on the Wam selling some he got direct from Japan.
Price was much cheaper, but I am not sure he has any stock left. Worth looking at if you are in the market for one though.

[paulf-2007]

Peace of mind is worth £40, you are lucky to have a good local dealer, any that have survived anywhere near me are arseholes. Far too pushy and put me off dealers for good.
Seems you have found something at a sensible price as your opening post was about expensive mc's.

[Floyddroid]

Peace of mind is worth £40, you are lucky to have a good local dealer, any that have survived anywhere near me are arseholes. Far too pushy and put me off dealers for good.
Seems you have found something at a sensible price as your opening post was about expensive mc's.

Yes indeed Paul. I have had numerous expensive mc's including Lyra, Koetsu, Dynavector, Ortofon and Linn. Until recently I was using a standard Denon 103 and loved it. It was the 103 that cast doubt in my mind as to the worth of highly priced cartridges like the ones I owned previously were really worth the kind of money they cost? The PTG/II takes my scepticism a step further.

[uzzy]

When compared to a Decca (you can get a gold second hand for about £350 .. less for a Silver or Blue which can be upgraded later with a rebuild and a paratrace or fine line stylus fitted) then definitely not .. also the Decca will cost you about £250 for a rebuild when it comes time to retip so its long term running costs are low. A rebuild is a new armature and stylus so unlike a moving coil there is no worry of suspension collapse on an old cartridge .. and nothing compares to a Decca for listening experience .. This means you can get a used one and try it out and if you like it pay for a rebuild and it will still cost you under £600 or if you don't like it you can sell it and probably get back what you paid for it .. If you have a Mission 774/Mayware Formula 4/Hadcock/Keith Monks arm you owe it yourself to give one a go

[Barry]

When compared to a Decca (you can get a gold second hand for about £350 .. less for a Silver or Blue which can be upgraded later with a rebuild and a paratrace or fine line stylus fitted) then definitely not .. also the Decca will cost you about £250 for a rebuild when it comes time to retip so its long term running costs are low. A rebuild is a new armature and stylus so unlike a moving coil there is no worry of suspension collapse on an old cartridge .. and nothing compares to a Decca for listening experience .. This means you can get a used one and try it out and if you like it pay for a rebuild and it will still cost you under £600 or if you don't like it you can sell it and probably get back what you paid for it .. If you have a Mission 774/Mayware Formula 4/Hadcock/Keith Monks arm you owe it yourself to give one a go

What is a Decca 'Silver'? Do you mean a Decca 'Grey'?

[walpurgis]

What is a Decca 'Silver'? Do you mean a Decca 'Grey'?

My Decca 'Grey' was grey, but I'm fairly sure I have seen them in silver as well.

[montesquieu]

When compared to a Decca (you can get a gold second hand for about £350 .. less for a Silver or Blue which can be upgraded later with a rebuild and a paratrace or fine line stylus fitted) then definitely not .. also the Decca will cost you about £250 for a rebuild when it comes time to retip so its long term running costs are low. A rebuild is a new armature and stylus so unlike a moving coil there is no worry of suspension collapse on an old cartridge .. and nothing compares to a Decca for listening experience .. This means you can get a used one and try it out and if you like it pay for a rebuild and it will still cost you under £600 or if you don't like it you can sell it and probably get back what you paid for it .. If you have a Mission 774/Mayware Formula 4/Hadcock/Keith Monks arm you owe it yourself to give one a go

Fine if you like Deccas, some of us just can't understand the attraction.

[Barry]

Fine if you like Deccas, some of us just can't understand the attraction.

Deccas are not for the noviciate. The build quality is poor (if not appalling), so there is often enormous sample to sample variation. In addition, Deccas are a 'law unto themselves'; what applies to most electro-dynamic cartridges doesn't necessarily apply to Decca cartridges. They can be a pain in the arse to set up and use, but if pampered will get you closer to the experience of live music unlike any other cartridge.

Sadly if you have a poor sample, or one that is badly installed and set up, you will be mystified as to what the fuss is all about.

[walpurgis]

Yes. My early Blues were very good, as was my Grey. Not so impressed with later Blues or the Maroon. I thought the Grey better than the Export Gold. My 4RC sounded better than any of the Londons, but was a little sensitive to hum.

[montesquieu]

Deccas are not for the noviciate. The build quality is poor (if not appalling), so there is often enormous sample to sample variation. In addition, Deccas are a 'law unto themselves'; what applies to most electro-dynamic cartridges doesn't necessarily apply to Decca cartridges. They can be a pain in the arse to set up and use, but if pampered will get you closer to the experience of live music unlike any other cartridge.

Sadly if you have a poor sample, or one that is badly installed and set up, you will be mystified as to what the fuss is all about.

I'd hardly call myself a novice Barry.

My conclusion from several goes at it is they are probably fine for 60s pop and rock but a bit shit regardless of setup or 'luck' (in terms of getting a mythical 'good one') for the sort of subtle, finely shaded lieder, chamber music and renaissance stuff I mainly listen to.

[struth]

Whouldnt immediately think of them and your music as an ideal match, but you never know i guess. Only heard one and i was unimpressed so it must have been a dodgy one or fitted wrong. Trouble was the guy thought it the bees knees

[paulf-2007]

When compared to a Decca (you can get a gold second hand for about £350 .. less for a Silver or Blue which can be upgraded later with a rebuild and a paratrace or fine line stylus fitted) then definitely not .. also the Decca will cost you about £250 for a rebuild when it comes time to retip so its long term running costs are low. A rebuild is a new armature and stylus so unlike a moving coil there is no worry of suspension collapse on an old cartridge .. and nothing compares to a Decca for listening experience .. This means you can get a used one and try it out and if you like it pay for a rebuild and it will still cost you under £600 or if you don't like it you can sell it and probably get back what you paid for it .. If you have a Mission 774/Mayware Formula 4/Hadcock/Keith Monks arm you owe it yourself to give one a gosecond hand are as rare as rocking horse poo and a new super gold is stupid money for something so unpredictable. I do quite like the sound based on the brief experience I had.

[alphaGT]

I'm sure many of you already know this, but I'm going to say it anyway, for the rest of us. The differences between a MM and an MC are basically their construction. With an Moving Magnet, the coils are stationary, so they can have more windings and generate more voltage, created from a magnet on the back end of the cantilever waving over the coils. But, more windings, means more magnet to generate power, and what you get is higher output, but more weight on the other end of the cantilever.

MC cartridges have the magnets fixed, and the coils are on the back end of the cantilever waving them over the magnet. So, to keep that weight down, they use fewer windings and smaller wire, and that means the moving coil has far less weight on the back end of the cantilever. And that means it can react faster, it can change direction faster, and that means more detail from the grooves. But for every advantage their is a trade off. And that is that it puts out a tiny fraction of the current a moving magnet can. So, it requires a better phono preamp to get the extra gain without making extra noise and distortion. So why would anyone bother to spend more for a low output cartridge that requires more expensive amplification? Because it's worth it.

Don't get me wrong, there are some very fine sounding MM carts on the market! Easier to amplify, less likely to suffer from hum and noise with a less expensive preamp, like you may find built into older preamps and receivers. But, to get over the level of performance that MM is capable of, you go to MC carts and a better preamp.

But I've heard that one can get into a very good MC cartridge for around the $1000 range, not sure how many pounds that is today? I should say from $500 to $1000, but once you go over that amount the laws of diminishing returns kicks in hard. The prices go up steeply to get appreciably better, and that drives up the cost of cables, preamps, on up the line to appreciate that difference.

And I think logic dictates a certain level of spreading it around? Sure there are some low priced tables or perhaps you were lucky enough to get a great table at a low price, but on average, I plan to keep my prices level. If I've got a $1000 'table, it should have a $1000 arm. And a $1000 cartridge, but I'm not sure how much preamp that should need? And of course this rule is not carved in stone, if any one of these should cost more than the rest, perhaps it should be the cartridge? Presently I'm way under budget on my cartridge with a Sumiko Blue Point 3 Special. A $500 cart. But it is about one mile over my last cart! A Grado Gold. (Which is actually no better than the Silver, just the top 5% supposedly) but they sell more golds than silvers? So where are those other 95% of the silvers at? Anyway, I am seriously thinking of a cart in the $1000 range, so many great carts in that range to choose from! Or perhaps a $2000 cart used with low mileage? My Phonomena preamp isn't real expensive, but it's up to the task for now.

Thanks for letting me add my two cents, I've enjoyed reading this thread! I am learning a lot from you guys!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[montesquieu]

Whouldnt immediately think of them and your music as an ideal match, but you never know i guess. Only heard one and i was unimpressed so it must have been a dodgy one or fitted wrong. Trouble was the guy thought it the bees knees

Yes this has been exactly my experience as well, on top of a couple of goes at trying to get them to sound decent in my own system. As Miss Jean Brodie once put it, 'For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like.'




But I've heard that one can get into a very good MC cartridge for around the $1000 range, not sure how many pounds that is today? I should say from $500 to $1000, but once you go over that amount the laws of diminishing returns kicks in hard. The prices go up steeply to get appreciably better, and that drives up the cost of cables, preamps, on up the line to appreciate that difference.



I find this to be broadly true, not cables so much (I'm not a believer myself) but pricey cartridges can be a bit of a waste without appropriate bits further down the chain, particularly SUT and phono preamp.

I've just dusted off my flexible friend to pay for a Miyajima Madake, which should be here tomorrow. Having had assorted Miyajimas before (stereo - Waza, Shilabe, Kansui; mono Kotetu, Premium BE, Premium 78 and Zero - still own the last two of that list) I'm quite excited.

[Reffc]

From my own experience, a good MC cartridge has more advantages than previously stated. Lower inertia means usually better, more controlled HF damping and better HF response, but as Tom says, it demands high quality ancillaries. I've owned all sorts of expensive (and not so expensive) MM cartridges, and not one has bettered a good LOMC with matching ancillaries. Cheap? No. That's the main drawback, not the construction or the extra bits needed, or the high S/N demanded of partnering kit. All that is freely available by design from various designers/manufacturers but it comes at a cost. Whether that cost is worth it, is a very individual thing. For me, it is. Some of the finest sounds I've heard on hifi at any price have come from Tom's set-up with Miyajima carts, high quality tonearms, SUTs and phono stages.

You can get very good performance from a good MM, and that will be sufficient for most people I suspect, but as to which is "better", technically speaking, then imho, it's a good LOMC set up every time.

[Barry]

I'd hardly call myself a novice Barry.

My conclusion from several goes at it is they are probably fine for 60s pop and rock but a bit shit regardless of setup or 'luck' (in terms of getting a mythical 'good one') for the sort of subtle, finely shaded lieder, chamber music and renaissance stuff I mainly listen to.

What I should have said was that Deccas are not "fit and forget", as are most other cartridges. They don't require any more care with installation than you would give to any other cartridge, but in having a three-terminal connection to the preamp a certain amount of experimentation is needed regarding connection of the fourth wire, as well as to the load impedance.

I wouldn't necessarily say they are the best cartridge I have heard, and they do not replace the regular moving-coil designs I use (usually EMT or Ortofon ). But the presentation offered by Deccas is, IMO, so unique (and intriguing) I always have one set up on one of my TTs.

But as you say, you have given Deccas a good try on several occasions and found they are not for you. Can't say fairer than that.

[paulf-2007]

My current set up that I don't see changing. Denon DP80 about £600 excluding plinth, Stax UA-70 arm £650 and Shure Ultra 500 £500.

[take5]

Ive not read any of this thread ( too long)...................

but in the spirit of what does that matter, I'll join in anyway. here is my 2p worth.

the biggest audible improvements I have heard in my system have all been when I got high end MC cartridges.

my first was a Cadenza Black. huge jump up from my previous MC's inc... linn troika, Dynavector, Ortofon etc

next a Fidelity Research MC702. A step up from the Cadenza black, but not much. Then an audio Note Io. small step up again.

sadly, all now gone. My system sounds nothing like as good now.

Top class MC's....expensive ... yes. worth it.... yes

[Firebottle]

..next a Fidelity Research MC702.

Very nice when I heard one ....

[alphaGT]

That Cadenza Black is on my short list....


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[RobbieGong]

That Cadenza Black is on my short list....


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

+1 without any shadow of a doubt, would love one.

[montesquieu]

That Cadenza Black is on my short list....


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I had and enjoyed the Ortofon Jubilee that predeeded it ... but of the later ones, preferred the Cadenza Blue seemed to have more life about it.

[RobbieGong]

I had and enjoyed the Ortofon Jubilee that predeeded it ... but of the later ones, preferred the Cadenza Blue seemed to have more life about it.

Hi Tom, I've done extensive on these carts :) by that I mean read and read tons plus discussed with users etc.

I actually wanted a Jubilee but then the Cadenza Black arrived which is always expressed as having all the great qualities of the Jubilee but better / more dynamic.

The Jubilee was highly regarded / respected cart with great qualities but a negative sometimes expressed was that it could maybe sound a little laid back or reticent at times like you needed to turn it up a bit.

Having had both the other current flagship Ortofon Shibata clad cartridges - 2M Black and Quintet Black, I'm in no doubt that I'd find the Cadenza B an outstanding performer - It's on my hifi bucket list ;)

[farflungstar]

Tom I think your inbox is full - I tried messaging you.
Adey

In perpetual pursuit.

[montesquieu]

Tom I think your inbox is full - I tried messaging you.
Adey

In perpetual pursuit.

Fixt.

[farflungstar]

Hmmmm, still can't send... Ok done.


Adey

[anubisgrau]

Hmmmm, still can't send... Ok done.


Adey

have you got your hashi SUT?

[farflungstar]

Not yet grrrrr. Still with the monkeys at Spanish customs.....

In perpetual pursuit.