The Odyssey

[Mike Adams]

Ive been on here and the Wam a while but never got around to posting much about my system, anyway I thought I would do so, so here goes.

I was a keen musician at school and thought about going to music college. Giving up this idea I was keen to have a decent system to reproduce music at home.

This started as the usual Richer Sound system (Technics CD/Marantz PM66SE/MS 10i) which was pretty enjoyable, though compromised by my room at the time.

Not sure why, but I progressed (!?) to a Naim pre/power around 2000 and some PMC GB1s.

I never was happy with this and eventually I was in a position to do something about it. I bought a XTC Pre/Art Audio Quintet, and suddenly everything came alive. This sounded great but in limited way. So now I wanted more...Living Voice IBX R2s came next...in hindsight not a great choice (for me) most probably down to the shape of the room/proximity of the side walls.

I felt/was told that it couldn’t be the speakers and started the journey.

https://imageshack.com/i/pmsxHnqQj

Some small changes coincided with a move to a different room where the side walls were much further away and things did improve but by now I had heard better. Also I had started playing for a local amateur orchestra which had reignited my interest in classical music.

https://imageshack.com/i/pmKYPJCXj

Listening to the LSO perform Rachmaninov Symphonic dances at the Barbican, brought it home. I had been changing my musical taste/programme to suit my set up and in reality my system did a poor job of playing anything with real scale.

By now I had got to know some people in the industry and had listened to a fair bit more kit.
I thought it could be the lack of pre amplifier. This lead to the purchase of a Puresound L300 which helped but didn’t really solve the problem.
Next I decided that it must be the Power Amplifier. So I auditioned several including Canary, Border patrol etc.
The Canary 300b PP were the closest to right but the ones I borrowed had a noisy transformer and a couple of conversations convinced me that I didn't want to sort this out.

In fact I was talking to an amplifier manufacturer explaining that I couldn't get the scale/dynamics and realism that I wanted and that I didn’t know where to go...Tannoys he said they would be a step in the right direction for you…

[Mike Adams]

The Tannoy Saga

Well some more exposure to different systems and I was convinced that Tannoys were a step in the right direction for me. I had read through the threads here and heard various models.

I wont go into what a disaster it all was but I didn’t get the drive units I paid for and eventually I returned them with a significant cost to myself.

Along the way I had some glorious sound.

https://imageshack.com/i/poIj7muuj

Changing from early Golds to actual Reds was a positive, and in particular once I had swapped the Lockwood Majors for rectangular GRFs that were Tom's (Montesquieu)...It could sound sublime

If I could have got it to work without fault it would have been great but some 18 months of trying and I decided it was time to cut my losses…

[farflungstar]

Lovely looking system and delicious speakers....
Adey

Sent from my Aquaris E4.5 using Tapatalk

[Mike Adams]

Thanks Adey...

Somewhere along all this I decided that I needed to try vinyl. Every time I visited someone with a turntable I always preferred the sound this produced, so decided to give this a go….

I purchased a modified Lenco B51 with a Schroder style arm. I got a nude 103 and a Icon Audio PS1 phono stage. This was easy to set up and sounded great.

https://imageshack.com/i/po6Z403aj

I also found that with the Tannoys I preferred PP to SE, so went from) SE300b to PP KT88 though contrary to others I preferred the amp in triode mode which I found slightly sweeter/more refined.

[farflungstar]

Looking great. I was reading up about that arm the other day as one was on the bay for a reasonable price. How does it perform?

One day I may go the Tannoy route...

Adey

Sent from my Aquaris E4.5 using Tapatalk

[Mike Adams]

Well I got mine with the TT, at the time I just didn't want the faff of finding a suitable tonearm.
I think the design is amazing TBH; mine sounds very good, but if I could find an affordable original reference I would be very temped...

[farflungstar]

I think yours is a German make and uses only magnetism whereas the Schroeder users magnetism and a fine thread to maintain geometry.

Adey

Sent from my Aquaris E4.5 using Tapatalk

[Mike Adams]

The Tannoys would have been the end of the journey for me but issues with matching the HF units of the Reds made it impossible for me to live with them on a long term basis, so eventually they went.

Initially I had aspirations of building a 3 way horn system around the GRF cabinets, but I realised I actually wanted to be able to enjoy listening again rather than dealing with mis-aligned drivers/building cross overs, so when the opportunity came to try some modern dual concentrics I thought it was worth a try.

Enter Trenner and Friedl with their RA units.

https://imageshack.com/i/pnQV1QTaj

Somewhat different to the Tannoys I had as they actually have a wave guide for the HF unit so are like a cross between a Tannoy and a Altec 604 unit. They are also 12 drive units (rather than the 15s) and the cabinets are of a significantly smaller volume than the GRFs.

Firstly they weren’t faulty. No weird imaging or resonance issues (which I had with the Tannoys) They are more neutral/less coloured and work far better at lower volume than the Tannoys had. Being a ported box similar to the Lockwoods I hadn’t actually lost any bass extension…

However some of what the Tannoys did, they don’t do so well. The dynamic impact is less (most likely due to the change in driver size) and I think they aren’t quite so revealing. Also I had got used to the horn loading from the GRFs which coupled with my room quite well to give a more 3D image than I got from a ported box.

[farflungstar]

Lovely. I've emailed them for more info.

Adey

Sent from my Aquaris E4.5 using Tapatalk

[Marco]

The Tannoy Saga

Well some more exposure to different systems and I was convinced that Tannoys were a step in the right direction for me. I had read through the threads here and heard various models.

I wont go into what a disaster it all was but I didn’t get the drive units I paid for and eventually I got them taken pack with a significant cost to myself.

Along the way I had some glorious sound.

https://imageshack.com/i/poIj7muuj

Changing from early Golds to actual Reds was a positive, and in particular once I had swapped the Lockwood Majors for rectangular GRFs that were Tom's (Montesquieu)...It could sound sublime

If I could have got it to work without fault it would have been perfect but some 12 months of trying and I decided it was time to cut my losses…

Interesting account of events, Mike, and sorry to hear of your various trials and tribulations! So what was the issue with the Lockies? I use a pair of Majors myself (fitted with 15" Monitor Golds), with modded crossovers, on the end of a nice P/P 50W Class A valve amp, powered by KT150s, and the results are sublime :)

Btw, I went from Reds to Golds, and aside from the superior midrange of the Reds, the overall balance was much preferable with a wide range of music.

Marco.

[struth]

The Tannoys would have been the end of the journey for me but issues with matching the HF units of the Reds made it impossible for me to live with them on a long term basis, so eventually they went.

Initially I had aspirations of building a 3 way horn system around the GRF cabinets, but I realised I actually wanted to be able to enjoy listening again rather than dealing with mis-aligned drivers/building cross overs, so when the opportunity came to try some modern dual concentrics I thought it was worth a try.

Enter Trenner and Friedl with their RA units.

https://imageshack.com/i/pnQV1QTaj

Somewhat different to the Tannoys I had as they actually have a wave guide for the HF unit so are like a cross between a Tannoy and a Altec 604 unit. They are also 12 drive units (rather than the 15s) and the cabinets are of a significantly smaller volume than the GRFs.

Firstly they weren’t faulty. No weird imaging or resonance issues (which I had with the Tannoys) They are more neutral/less coloured and work far better at lower volume than the Tannoys had. Being a ported box similar to the Lockwoods I hadn’t actually lost any bass extension…

However some of what the Tannoys did, they don’t do so well. The dynamic impact is less (most likely due to the change in driver size) and I think they aren’t quite so revealing. Also I had got used to the horn loading from the GRFs which coupled with my room quite well to give a more 3D image than I got from a ported box.

Nice bit of wood that. Very pretty finish.:)

[Mike Adams]

Thanks Marko/Grant.

Regarding the Tannoys.

I heard Golds vs Reds in York cabinets and to me it wasn’t just the midrange that was better, I found them more transparent too, though I will caveat this with the knowledge that the crossovers were probably not quite right/ideal at the time.

I also found that they drove off a lower power valve amp more easily. As my knowledge of the drive units improved I began to understand that there were more changes from Golds to Reds than I had thought. (For instance the HF unit/magnets etc are all different)

When I got my Lockwoods, they actually had re-coned early Golds. Its hard to say what exactly was wrong with them but dirt in the magnet gap, and wrong crossovers left with a harsh HF and resonance on key frequencies on piano repertory.

I went for the Lockwood cabs as whilst I liked the better midrange of the Reds, I could hear that they were missing the LF of the Golds. The bigger volume cabs were the answer to getting the LF extension.
However they were lightweight ply, with little bracing and old dampening cloth. Consequently they resonated at certain frequencies and made the sound quite coloured. Along the way I visited Tom to hear his Golds/GRFs. Russ C had done lots of work done to them and they were very solid and neutral sounding in comparison. They also coupled to the room and I found the natural presentation very appealing. Tom had decided to try Autographs and so I took the opportunity to purchase the cabs from him at the time.

https://imageshack.com/i/plu4COeUj

I never managed to directly compare the GRFs with the Lockwoods in my room as I took the option of returning the Lockwoods/Golds and to get the original Reds.

This too wasn’t straightforward as they hadn’t been re-coned well, weren’t a matched pair and when problems with a HF unit were diagnosed I decided enough was enough. That isn’t to say that the potential with them wasn’t there but there is only so much time/effort you can put into something before you become disillusioned.

[rigger67]

Great thread.
This is how systems should be described .. if only we all took photos along the way, eh, I could show you my original PL-12D, Technics receiver and Solavox set-up ;)

[Mike Adams]

After all this I was glad to have something that just worked. Initially unimpressive, the RAs have really grown on me over time and are really flexible at fitting into almost any room. In fact they recommend using them pushed right up against a wall, which helps in smaller rooms that I seem to be now living in.

Whilst all this was going on I had realised that I didn’t have a very well matched set of amplifiers for the higher sensitivity speakers that I had moved towards.

Both Puresound L300 and Art Audio Concerto are great amps, but the high gain of the Puresound into the high sensitivity Art meant that I was having some issues with residual valve sound.

I knew Tom had been round the houses with amplifiers and had heard his Puresound 2A3 when he had the GRFs so when this appeared for sale it seemed a good opportunity to downsize, get some cash out and still end up with a great system.

https://imageshack.com/i/poqWM1ySj

I also got a Axia MC which is a great MC and fitted into my system really well.

[Mike Adams]

I still had the GRF cabs at this point and several times almost hit the button to turn into a 3 way horn system. I realized the only way to stop me doing this was to shift the cabs so swapped them in for a Art Audio Vinyl One. I had this upgraded to Reference spec and two MM inputs so I could use separate SUTs.

https://imageshack.com/i/pn86HRI8j

I was already getting keen on trying a mono set up so now with some cash available I decided to go for it and purchased a Miyajima Zero, FR64S.
Speedy Steve made the arm pod but typically when I came to set the arm up it was all seized up. J7 did a great job of sorting this out and I guess it is just something else to chalk up to experience.

[Mike Adams]

Liking the Miyajima sound, when the opportunity to buy a KSW SUT that matched the higher end models came up I got this. After quite some time trying differing SUTs I eventually I decided that I wanted some HM7s. I bought these from the USA and had a go at DIY (OK with a LOT of help)

https://imageshack.com/i/pl0sGu79j

[farflungstar]

I'm going down this same path with suts and the KSW/Miyajima combo or another SUT - how would you compare the Hashimotos vs KSW?
Adey

Sent from my Aquaris E4.5 using Tapatalk

[Mike Adams]

This is a fair summary but as stated its system dependant, I liked the KSW enough to keep them and build the HM7s...

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?37658-Mega-SUT-shoot-out-seven-(and-a-half)-SUTs-on-trial!!-a-brief-review

[Reffc]

Great system Mike and great write up.

I actually heard those GRFs at Tom's old place in Winnersh and thought that they suited the room very well. I think Tom was using a Puresound pre at the time. I also heard those Lockies, but for some reason (not evident on other Lockies) I found the bass a little muddled and they seemed to suffer from a bit of bass overhang which just coloured and muddled the midrange a little. I also am a big fan of the Miyajima sound and if funds permitted, would love to try one of their cartridges in my system. Sorry to learn of your tribulations though and it sounds like it has been some journey! Have you heard Tom's latest set up? He's really cracked at in his new place as it's one of the finest set-ups I think I've listened to in a long time and there's plenty of parallels to draw between his and your systems!

[Mike Adams]

Next came a location move, plus a drop in income…something to slow me down! One bigger open plan room with a vaulted celling, in many ways this should be better. However it doesn’t always work out as a positive and in many ways I miss the small room I had before. Whilst the room is pretty big I am sat a bit too close so can’t quite maximize the imaging.

https://imageshack.com/i/plexTHqTj

I also tried out loads of different valves with the Puresound, the set of RCA 2A3s in particular were great.

Having heard Tom’s Shilabe I also wanted to try a different MC and ignoring that I couldn’t really justify it bought a Kansui to join the Zero as an all Miyajima MC set up.

I wasn’t really getting the full use of this and the Axia is really pretty good so after about 6 months I sold this to Tom. I also did some messing about with the phono stage and had the caps changed for some NOS Hovlands which really are that good.

All was now well…until Bob C decided to have a fire sale and I just missed out on a SJS Arcadia Pre amp

[Mike Adams]

Thanks Paul.

I don't know if you remember but I actually spoke with you about building me some crossovers for the Reds at the time. Yours was a voice of reason in all the madness...I came close to selling all but fortunately managed to get out of the Tannoy predicament before it got any worse.

Re the Lockwoods, I know that they were originally the orange pair from a studio, and I could hear that the bass went lower than with the GRFs, however the drive units were such a mess that I never really gave the cabs that much of a chance.

I think Toms GRFs are a bit of a one off TBH as they were more tuned than just dampened...

[Reffc]

Yes Mike, I remember now. It was something of a learning curve which everyone who dips their toes into the Tannoy pool seems to go through. Unfortunately for many, it becomes a minefield very quickly, with so much misinformation doing the rounds, plus finding the best combinations, drivers to use, or knowing the cabinet designs to avoid or which are best suited are all an education and that's before it comes to crossovers! I think that Tom has got it spot on now but it has taken him many years to arrive at that point.

The Lockies look remarkably similar to a newish pair which did the rounds a few years ago, sold on by Lockwood Audio, which are the one's I heard.

I've often wondered about the speakers you now have and one day hope to hear a pair. Best of luck with the continued journey and hope you arrive at your destination soon!

[Mike Adams]

One of the nice/bad things about all the forums is you can see who has bought the very thing you wanted!

I also realized that this pre was a bit of a one off being based on 6H30Pi and other than the steel case very much a Model 2, so once I knew who had it I messaged them to ensure I had first dibs…Well I didn’t have to wait long…

I also had the opportunity to try some other Power amps and this confirmed that I still very much liked the 300b sound. In fact I was shocked when 8w of SE300b provided more extension with the RAs (both bass/treble) than almost everything else I had to hand, including PP 845s…

https://imageshack.com/i/poVdfMXuj

One of the problems of buying second hand is that you cant pick and chose when it suits you financially, so 3 days after the SJS pre arrived when a Border Patrol P20 came up I went for it!

This had bass but was missing much of what I had heard with the SE300b. I guessed something wasn't quite right, and so it seemed prudent to have it looked at. Once I had the case off it was apparent that a number of components that had been very hot.

I decided to have it overhauled and typically got a bit carried away which ended up with a rebuild most of the audio section. This made a huge difference and now I have a better balance, close to 'right' in my room....

[Mike Adams]

By now I had a more refined sound and whilst the voicing of the Axia suited my system I was beginning to feel I was missing some refinement. Tom offered to sell me the Kansui back and so some 12 months after I sold it to him, Ive now bought it back!

https://imageshack.com/i/poAxfb9ij

I still am finding it darker than the Axia, but it is much more tonally resolved, great detail, beautiful timbre and the mid-lower frequencies are so 3D…

[Mike Adams]

You are probably right Paul but I struggle to think that most keep with it if they have a similar experience to me...Crossovers were the least of my problems as you can build them from scratch and I know the man to go to :)

The Lockwoods weren't from Lockwood Audio, though they had a pair of oak clad ones at the time which I believe Tom tried. Your comments on their sound are familiar to my experience though the issues with the drive units were far more prominent...

If you are every up this way you would be welcome to call in...

[Reffc]

Thanks Mike, I'd love to pop in for a listen if I'm ever up your way.

I love the TT by the way and you and Tom both have ended up with a dream vinyl front end there.

[The Black Adder]

I remember speaking to someone at Lockwood about their cabinets, he said just keep an eye out for some original ones. So, they didn't have much confidence in the remakes.

It really pains me to see Major's stripped of their Formica too to which makes a marked difference on how they sound.

The Major cabinets seem to be getting harder to find too.

[Mike Adams]

Well these were original, and personally I think orange formica would have been an interesting look!

They would have need a fair bit of work to sound anything like OK IMHO, I accept that it is contrary to others on here but I really felt that they weren't close to Tom's GRFs....

Paul, I think Tom's Vinyl front end is some way ahead of mine still, both arms and TT...Still I would hate to have nothing to change!

[The Black Adder]

LOL... well, Orange would be very interesting.

Regarding the sound, GRF's are a different kettle of fish and I wouldn't like to compare them both as they are very different in design. And with Tannoy reds or golds they are very picky about what they are put in.

Personally I love my Majors and they are the most natural sounding cabs I've had, but hey... we are all different :)

[Marco]

Hi Mike,

Thanks for your detailed reply. Just to go over a few of your points:


I heard Golds vs Reds in York cabinets and to me it wasn’t just the midrange that was better, I found them more transparent too, though I will caveat this with the knowledge that the crossovers were probably not quite right/ideal at the time.


No worries, that's interesting. I did the comparison (15" Reds vs. 15" Golds) in the same Lockwood Major cabinets I'm using now (using the respective crossovers for the speakers), and I agree with your comments about transparency. The Reds were more transparent and also had the more open/expressive midrange.

However, the trade-off (and sadly in audio there always is one) was that for such large drivers they lacked bass impact and authority, and conversely sounded rather lean and tonally 'cold' on certain material. I could've lived with the Reds if my musical diet consisted solely of small jazz quartets, light classical, female vocalists and acoustic music, etc.

Thing is, as much as I love all of that, I also enjoy listening to heavy rock music, reggae, dance and electronic music, and many things with a nice 'meaty bass-line', which didn't cut it with the Reds, as I suspect that because they were designed before most of that music came about, they weren't optimised to reproduce it properly. That was certainly my experience anyway, and I persevered with the Reds for many weeks before (somewhat reluctantly) changing over to Golds.

When I did so, I lost some of the transparency and midrange magic of the Reds, but gained massively at the opposite end of the spectrum, where the sound was now fuller, richer and warmer, but not in a euphonic way.

It was simply that the lower frequencies, rather than being strangled and somewhat 'held in check', as they had been with the Reds, were now liberated, allowed to 'breathe' and develop their full tonal envelope, and this brought rock and dance music alive in a way that simply wasn't possible with the Reds, whilst the midrange and top-end were still very open, detailed and clean sounding.

It took quite a while for me to get a proper 'handle' on what the Reds were doing wrong (after initially being very impressed with them), which the Golds ably fixed, albeit by introducing their own inherent sonic signature and limitations, as all speakers have. The balance with the Golds, however, in my system was eminently more satisfying and 'correct' with the majority of the music I listened to.

I should also add that this was achieved in conjunction with a relatively modern valve amp (Tube Distinctions 30W Class A P/P Copper amp), which only had 6-8ohm taps, and so might not have suited the 15ohms Reds. Therefore, that may have had a bearing on proceedings. I didn't want to change my amp, or have it fitted with transformers wound for 15ohms, especially when it gelled really well with the 8ohms Golds. Results may have been different with a vintage SET amp, fitted with 15ohm taps.


I also found that they drove off a lower power valve amp more easily. As my knowledge of the drive units improved I began to understand that there were more changes from Golds to Reds than I had thought. (For instance the HF unit/magnets etc are all different)


Absolutely. One other thing I noticed right away when swapping from Reds to Golds is that the former were notably more efficient! Thus, as you say, suiting a low-powered valve amp rather well. In that respect, my rather 'gutsy' P/P one may have been a little too much for them. I don't know. Either way, the results simply weren't optimal.


When I got my Lockwoods, they actually had re-coned early Golds. Its hard to say what exactly was wrong with them but dirt in the magnet gap, and wrong crossovers left with a harsh HF and resonance on key frequencies on piano repertory.


Getting the crossovers right with those is mandatory. I simply couldn't have lived with the original Gold crossovers, as they made the speakers sound tubby and old-fashioned, with a rather rolled-off top end and crude overall tonal and musical delivery. Having new crossovers built, complimentary to the design of the loudspeakers and using the best modern components, however, changed all that... Once fitted, never had I heard a pair of loudspeakers so fundamentally transformed for the better! :eek:


I went for the Lockwood cabs as whilst I liked the better midrange of the Reds, I could hear that they were missing the LF of the Golds. The bigger volume cabs were the answer to getting the LF extension.
However they were quite resonant being lightweight ply, with little bracing and old dampening cloth. Consequently they resonated at certain frequencies and made the sound quite coloured.


As Jo has also commented, this is rather strange... Firstly, are you sure that the Lockwood Major cabs you had were original?

Mine definitely are, and have the rosewood formica finish. The cabinets are also very well-constructed, heavy and inert, and most definitely not resonant in the way you describe. Consequently, the bass they produce is tight and deep, but also 'free' and unrestricted, not overly damped and somewhat too 'controlled', as I've often heard with some modern large Tannoy DCs, which to my ears have had the musicality 'strangled' out of them, in the quest for notional greater 'accuracy'...

In my experience, you can brace the buggery out of speakers, which improves certain aspects of their musical delivery, but strangles others, so you have to be very careful and get the balance right between control/accuracy and musicality, which is where good ears and fine-tuning comes in, as opposed to relying too heavily on measurements. I've heard many different large Tannoy DCs, in various cabinets, both HPDs and Reds and Monitor Golds, and I wouldn't swap my Lockies for anything else that I've heard so far!

That said, I've yet to hear any of Paul's excellent creations, so that view might change after I've been to visit him later in the year. As ever, this hi-fi game is a continual learning curve, so when presented with good reason, I'm more than happy to reassess my opinions :cool:

Marco.

P.S If you're interested in reading it, this is the original thread documenting my Tannoy journey: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?2795-Marco-s-journey-to-Tannoy-land

[Mike Adams]

Hi Marco, thanks for your reply.

That is interesting regarding your experience of the Red’s lacking bass impact and sounding lean and cold. It certainly wasn’t my experience. I suspect that they differ somewhat given their age and condition. Were yours all original, re-cones, with modern HF diaphrams or….?

I would agree that the Golds sounded to have more bass impact but as you know there are a number of influencing factors. Did you do any measuring as quite often when part of the audio frequency is more audible it affects your impression of the other frequencies? (Ie if there is more bass you perceive there is less treble) They did have upgraded crossovers in them but in hindsight I suspect that they weren’t that well optimised.

For reference I was listening near field, in a small room, and used various power amps along with the Puresound L300. Contrary to my (and others) experience with Golds, you could drive the Reds well from a SE amp, and I tried both with various models including Art Audio Diavolo 300b, AA Concerto with split core output Tx, and a Consonance Cyber 880-2A3.

I decided to keep the AA Concerto (running KT88) and should I have sorted out the Reds then having some 15ohm transformers wound was next on my list.
(There are some Art mono block versions of this amp for sale ATM which I think would be very nice BTW ☺)

I don’t listen to a lot of heavy rock, or much reggae but I do like large scale classical and early drum and bass, which I think is at least/if not more demanding.

Re. the cabs, Im pretty sure they were original and reputedly were the orange formica models that came from a well known studio.
They were heavy but as a large box, made of thin-ish ply they weren’t inert. I’m not implying that the panels were flapping about but that they didn’t sound ‘tight and deep or free’ in the way you describe.

https://imageshack.com/i/pnm4lXkUj

Tom’s GRFs did have less extension, but I found them less coloured and more open/natural sounding. As I think Ive implied they obviously had been through some iterative improvements and I suspect were/are a bit of a one off. If I could of got a ‘perfect’ set of drivers I would have kept them, but by this point it had been around 12 months and I probably had done some 2000+ miles to various ‘experts’ trying to sort them…

I would suggest that there are a number of similarities between Paul’s designs and my T & F RAs. From what I have heard of Paul’s I think they have slightly more dynamic swing, and are more revealing. Whilst the RAs drive off less watts, are more neutral, and have greater extension.

[petrat]

Hi Mike ... interesting journey!

I've heard both SJS and Border Patrol in different systems in the past, and I can imagine how they'd be pretty much top-notch as a combo. Old Tannoys are a minefield that I managed to by-pass, but you are right about Tom's turntable ... it really opened my ears to what a properly-fettled TD124 can do, bettering any other vintage turntable I've ever heard. Having owned both a Transfiguration Spirit and a Miyajima Shilabe, I'd also agree with your description of the relative 'house presentations' (post 24).

Anyway, I used to live in your neck of the woods (Cressbrook/Monsal) ... got any snow yet? :lol:

[montesquieu]

Missed this thread!

Nice to see Mike participate here, we've been on similar sorts of journeys for years and quite a bit of gear has gone back and forth. (As indeed, it has with Peter and Adey).

Those GRFs of mine were a bit so-so when I first bought them, but I had them comprehensively worked over by Russ Collinson of 'Layers of Beauty' fame, who did an absolutely superb job of bracing and damping - meant that they imaged very well indeed and weren't in the least boomy, which a lot of GRFs are.

They suffered from what all GRFs suffer from which is a steep roll-off from just under 50hz, but the bass just above that was lovely and tuneful (rather than one-note as so many speakers are) which to a large extent made up for it. With Golds in them I thought they were great and to be honest I don't think the Autographs, while measuring better, were half as much fun especially in a normal-sized room.

I still need to get up and hear Mike's 'new' speakers, I'm really curious about them - hopefully in the coming couple of months if not sooner.

[Marco]

That is interesting regarding your experience of the Red’s lacking bass impact and sounding lean and cold. It certainly wasn’t my experience. I suspect that they differ somewhat given their age and condition. Were yours all original, re-cones, with modern HF diaphrams or….?


Don't get me wrong, if you'd walked into the room where the Reds had been playing, I doubt you'd have thought: 'That sounds lean and cold'... What I meant was lean and cold in comparison with what the Golds delivered instead, and the response I would have expected both from my system, which I know well, and 15" drivers housed in huge cabinets.

The Reds, as superb as they were in all the areas you mention, which I fully acknowledge, made the LMs sound like medium-sized floorstanders, with limited scale and low-end heft, compared with the effortless controlled scale and bass authority I get with the Golds, inside the same cabinets, which do the 'huge speaker thing' with aplomb. To my ears, there's no doubt that Golds produce better bass response than Reds, which I'm sure would be measurable, as would the superiority of the Reds in the midrange.

Oh, and both the Reds and Golds I used were near mint examples of their kind, with no visible or audible defects. Both were also used with modified crossovers, not the stock ones from Tannoy.


I would agree that the Golds sounded to have more bass impact but as you know there are a number of influencing factors. Did you do any measuring as quite often when part of the audio frequency is more audible it affects your impression of the other frequencies? (Ie if there is more bass you perceive there is less treble) They did have upgraded crossovers in them but in hindsight I suspect that they weren’t that well optimised.


Nope, I didn't do any measuring, as I don't have the wherewithal to carry that out. I'm strictly an 'ears only' guy, but I'm very fussy and know a good sound when I hear it. I also regularly attend classical and rock music concerts, including small venues where acoustic music is played (often jazz quartets), and so know how real instruments are supposed to sound, which I use as a benchmark for reproducing them through my system.

Yup, you really need to have Reds or Golds fully optimised before judging them properly and thus arriving at a conclusive opinion of them.


For reference I was listening near field, in a small room, and used various power amps along with the Puresound L300. Contrary to my (and others) experience with Golds, you could drive the Reds well from a SE amp, and I tried both with various models including Art Audio Diavolo 300b, AA Concerto with split core output Tx, and a Consonance Cyber 880-2A3.


That all sounds fine. I also listen near-filed in a smallish room, so we're judging the sound in similar circumstances, even though our rooms will be different. The fact is, as you'll know yourself, large Tannoy DCs sound superb when listened to near-field in a small room. It just seems to suit their natural sound dispersal characteristics, and some of that 'magic' is lost when they're used in the size of rooms you'd expect to see them in! I know, because I've tried it...


I decided to keep the AA Concerto (running KT88) and should I have sorted out the Reds then having some 15ohm transformers wound was next on my list.


I do think that the 15ohm thing is significant and rather important, and probably why the Reds didn't really work in my system. I suspect that if I'd had a valve amp with transformers wound for 15ohms, things would've been somewhat different, although the fundamental sonic characteristics of the Reds and Golds, as described, would have remained so, regardless.


I don’t listen to a lot of heavy rock, or much reggae but I do like large scale classical and early drum and bass, which I think is at least/if not more demanding.


Absolutely, and I fully agree! I also love large-scale classical (currently enjoying Mahler's 10th, with Riccardo Chailly conducting the Royal Concertgebouw, and being blown away by the grandiose intensity and sheer majesty of the orchestra in full flow), and indeed many other forms of classical music, which big Tannoy DCs reproduce so convincingly and realistically.


Re. the cabs, Im pretty sure they were original and reputedly were the orange formica models that came from a well known studio.
They were heavy but as a large box, made of thin-ish ply they weren’t inert. I’m not implying that the panels were flapping about but that they didn’t sound ‘tight and deep or free’ in the way you describe.

https://imageshack.com/i/pnm4lXkUj


Looking at your pic (above), the wood seems rather 'flimsy' in comparison with what's used on my cabs... The colour of the base-wood also seems different (lighter). When rapping your knuckles hard on the sides of the cabs, what sound are you met with? I get a very dull thud!

As rodthebod said today, on the Celestion 66 recap thread, in reference to cabinet bracing:


From what we learnt, it's is very important to have a liveliness, which is frequency friendly akin to a musical instrument, to a loudspeaker cabinet otherwise the life or pace literally dies from the music...


I completely agree, as his observations mirror my own experiences in that respect, and for me that's what the cabs of (proper original) Lockwood Majors succeed so well at, which is why the sound they produce, with appropriate Tannoy DCs, is convincingly musical, rather than falsely generated, in order to comply with someone's measured notion of 'accuracy'.

You have to let the music 'breathe', as naturally as possible, and preserve its 'life' and dynamics accordingly, rather than strangle it by bracing the cabs to buggery and implementing principles that may seem, on the surface, to be sound engineering practice, but simply don't suit a particular application. That's my opinion on the matter anyway.

The problem is, no-one to my knowledge has yet invented a set of 'one-size fits all' design principles, which can then be applied to the construction of every loudspeaker cabinet...


Tom’s GRFs did have less extension, but I found them less coloured and more open/natural sounding. As I think Ive implied they obviously had been through some iterative improvements and I suspect were/are a bit of a one off. If I could of got a ‘perfect’ set of drivers I would have kept them, but by this point it had been around 12 months and I probably had done some 2000+ miles to various ‘experts’ trying to sort them…

I would suggest that there are a number of similarities between Paul’s designs and my T & F RAs. From what I have heard of Paul’s I think they have slightly more dynamic swing, and are more revealing. Whilst the RAs drive off less watts, are more neutral, and have greater extension.

All very interesting indeed... I've been invited both by Tom and Paul to hear their respective speakers in their homes, so will definitely take them up on that later in the year, as apart from anything else, it would be good to meet them finally, after chatting to them on here for years! :cool:

Marco.

[Mike Adams]

Well I was using the Reds in the GRFs which I found more open and natural. They did lose on extension as there was significant roll off, but what they did well was really good.

I did hear the GRFs with Golds at Toms (so different room/amp) and TBH I felt the Reds had more detail, and transparency. I also felt they didn't lack any scale, though were less extended. Having said that Im not a bass kind of guy, and often where people have additional subs, usually want them turning down or off (more often due to the lack of speed/integration)

The only speakers Ive heard do low frequency well are DIY taped subs; these made you realise that everything else really doesn't do bass/impact and they are soo fast (in comparison...)

Reds are getting on a bit now so obviously are going to vary between examples, and my Golds were definitely not good examples. I also accept that I didn't have the opportunity to hear them in ideal circumstances, but TBH for me it wasn't that close and given the opportunity Id take a set of perfect Reds over Golds everyday. Thats the nice thing about this hobby-we can pick and chose to suit our musical taste/preferences.

I do agree about your comments over near field listening I think its really underrated, and agree that getting the balance right with cabs is a tricky mix.

I think that Paul/Toms are a great balance and give everything Ive heard a real run for the money, if I didn't have my RAs its certainly where I would be going...

Now I wonder whats next....

[Marco]

That's fine, Mike. At the end of the day, it's just what you're into, and also what best suits the music you like. I also love Reds, but I'd want to use them with a vintage SET amp, with traffos wound for 15ohms, playing music that optimises their strengths, in order to hear them at their best :)

Anyway, next time you're due in Wrexham, give me a shout, and you'd be more than welcome to come round and have a listen to the Lockies :cool:

Marco.

[Mike Adams]

Well a disastrous set of circumstances where I somehow (mis) aligned the Kansui with the aid of my sleeve meant that I had chance to look at a couple of issues whilst it went back to Miyajima. (Unfortunately to find out they can’t repair it :doh: !?!)
Whilst this was going on I had the Lpad on my vinyl one removed and some nice caps and resistors swapped, and the SUT which I had built re worked to have a ground lift.
I also had the TT looked at to try to reduce the mechanical noise.
Turns out my TT is quieter than most, and according to Inspire is as good as it gets.:)
The Axia is back and WOW it’s all I remembered and more. I never was 100% with the Kansui, whilst the Axia is very right in my system. (If lacking the absolute authority of the Kansui LF)
The changes to the phono have reduced the background hash and there is more 3D/resolution etc….Very happy at the moment, though at some point I may be tempted to try a Phoenix-Proteus….

[Parkie37]

I'm sorry to hear about the damaged Kansui. Fingers crossed, I haven't done that yet, but it can happen to any of us! Were they able to offer a trade in against a new unit? Any way to salvage a mishap?

Don