View Full Version : Can vinyl image like digital?
My digital source cost about £100 new, my analogue source cost about £2k USED.
And yet I would say pretty much most of the time the digital source images much better and can do the whole 3D holographic thing much better also, I do love vinyl and it is my primary source but when I play something off the digital source I do often think I'm missing out on a lot.
Firebottle
06-01-2017, 18:00
Oh yes :thumbsup:
You need a very good phono stage though.
Arkless Electronics
06-01-2017, 18:03
It does it better I would say....
Short answer is yes, best I have heard in 3d imaging was from digital but it was an active system but I have heard some seriously impressive holographics from vinyl. Look to the phonostage. A 2 box Paradise effort and the Music First phono stage both do amazing imaging, I wouldn't have said it was possible until I heard it. But the Paradise is a quite expensive DIY build and the Music First is so expensive even the designer can't afford one.
walpurgis
06-01-2017, 18:07
You didn't say what your analogue source is. It's probably easy enough to spend a couple of grand and have a source that just won't deliver the goods. Not that I'm suggesting that's what you've done.
Spectral Morn
06-01-2017, 18:09
Something seriously wrong here. In my experience vinyl (when everything is optimal) will have greater depth, width and height of image over digital which in my long experience is flatter and less dimensional than vinyl.
The room will play a big part. The only times I have heard it is in very big rooms, big enough that reflections were not an issue. Never heard it in a living room type situation. Or should say 'seen' because I am talking about systems that just paint the image out for you, you don't need to listen or concentrate, it is just there.
Firebottle
06-01-2017, 18:34
You need to come around here Martin, and Matt for that matter,
you'd be very welcome.
Haselsh1
06-01-2017, 19:05
My experience is no, it cannot. Vinyl cannot image some sounds in stereo for physical reasons and cannot do the cavernous imaging that CD can.
Arkless Electronics
06-01-2017, 19:06
Short answer is yes, best I have heard in 3d imaging was from digital but it was an active system but I have heard some seriously impressive holographics from vinyl. Look to the phonostage. A 2 box Paradise effort and the Music First phono stage both do amazing imaging, I wouldn't have said it was possible until I heard it. But the Paradise is a quite expensive DIY build and the Music First is so expensive even the designer can't afford one.
Strangely enough my best ever experience with imaging and soundstaging was also from digital... A £2K or so old Marantz CD player going through an Arkless pre and Arkless modded Leak Stereo 20 into re-built ESL57's.... Generally though all my wow moments on the soundstaging front have been from vinyl...
walpurgis
06-01-2017, 19:08
You feel you could walk about in the soundstage from my Yatra.
Haselsh1
06-01-2017, 19:13
I think that without doubt a lot is dependent on the recording but a lot of my synth based music has some phenomenal 180 degree imaging that I very rarely hear from vinyl. Also of course there are some phase separations that cannot be tracked by a stylus and bass and other low frequencies that have to be in mono only on vinyl. Once again, I think that vinyl shows its age when asked to do things that it cannot do and I think that in itself is part of the problem. If we ask vinyl to keep within its envelope there is no problem at all.
I think that without doubt a lot is dependent on the recording but a lot of my synth based music has some phenomenal 180 degree imaging that I very rarely hear from vinyl.
Interesting, because it's when I'm listening to electronic music that I notice it the most.
farflungstar
06-01-2017, 19:30
Vinyl - but it takes a pretty special set up (not only hardware but correct alignment, vtf, sra, and azimuth). I listen to a lot of electronica and the 3 dimensional, walk around soundstage is phenomenal if it's on the vinyl in the first place. Soundstage is a real priority for me, depth, width, height. Last night listening to FSOL i was mesmerised not only by spectacular depth but the most delicious percussion floating above everything at ceiling height. Yes, a little sad maybe...
Adey
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Haselsh1
06-01-2017, 19:31
Interesting, because it's when I'm listening to electronic music that I notice it the most.
All I can add is that I have never heard it from any of my vinyl turntables in the past but I am always aware of it with digital. Now once again that could be to do with mixing and mastering about which I have no knowledge so it is possible that things are very toned down for vinyl because of its serious limitations when compared to CD. My best vinyl LP for imaging is 'Beaucoup Fish' by Underworld. Brilliant.
My digital source cost about £100 new, my analogue source cost about £2k USED.
And yet I would say pretty much most of the time the digital source images much better and can do the whole 3D holographic thing much better also, I do love vinyl and it is my primary source but when I play something off the digital source I do often think I'm missing out on a lot.
Err I think you should put the question the other way round. Can digital image like vinyl. Just remember digital is not great at imaging especially 3D imaging as most DACs cannot reproduce the transient micro information that analogue and vinyl does naturally. There are some DACs which can do this but they are very expensive!
By transient information I mean the tiny bits of reflected and non reflected acoustic information that tells the ear / brain the spatial position of a sound. Digital does not do this well at all and can be very phasey therefore not giving a pin point image.
Of course others may disagree but I know what my brain and ears tell me and I am lucky enough to hear what the very best digital systems are capable of in an ideal acoustic set up.
Vinyl does not really have to try hard to do this at all, even my girlfriends 1976 music centre does a good job of imaging!:lol:
farflungstar
06-01-2017, 20:42
Technically it's a mixed bag. Vinyl carries information down into the subsonic and over 20khz - whereas digital sticks to a meagre 20hz-20khz - but many carts don't share vinyls extended frequency range and so these vital clues about spatiality are lost. Likewise most carts are limited by dynamic range and separation.
Of course some break this norm, the Clear Audio Goldfinger has 90db dynamic range (if memory serves), and whilst most carts struggle for 30db separation my Allaerts cruises at 70db separation - the top one at around 90db.
Adey
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Spectral Morn
06-01-2017, 20:43
Hawkwind - Warrior on the Edge of Time, vinyl, not an original pressing, bought in the mid 80s if I recall right.
Imaging, separation, depth, bass, detail, layering that vastly out performed CD, and DVD Audio. That's one example I have experienced in the recent past, simply stunning and pissed over all my digital sources and that includes a Moon Andromeda and an Esoteric P5, D5 pairing.
Technically it's a mixed bag. Vinyl carries information down into the subsonic and over 20khz - whereas digital sticks to a meagre 20hz-20khz - but many carts don't share vinyls extended frequency range and so these vital clues about spatiality are lost. Likewise most carts are limited by dynamic range and separation.
Of course some break this norm, the Clear Audio Goldfinger has 90db dynamic range (if memory serves), and whilst most carts struggle for 30db separation my Allaerts cruises at 70db separation - the top one at around 90db.
Adey
Sent from my Aquaris E4.5 using Tapatalk
The vital clues about spatiality don't depend on a cartridge having the extreme range you are talking about, hence my partners 1976 music centre with an AT95e can do pin point imaging with ease.
Err I think you should put the question the other way round.
No, I think I know what I meant thanks. What I get with vinyl is 2.5D at best, nothing approaching the wide expansive, pin point, holographic sound I get from a no name £50 DAC.
farflungstar
06-01-2017, 20:50
I don't disagree, though having a solid performer sat between 2 Speakers isn't the same as the holographic walk aground soundstaging top flight, wide bandwidth transducers can produce.
Adey
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Spectral Morn
06-01-2017, 20:59
No, I think I know what I meant thanks. What I get with vinyl is 2.5D at best, nothing approaching the wide expansive, pin point, holographic sound I get from a no name £50 DAC.
Then Matt as I said there is something not right in the set up, or system synergy.
Fair enough if that is the case, but it's not something that has suddenly happened. I just assumed my previous vinyl set ups were too low rent to show it up, now I've invested a reasonable amount in a decent analogue set up I expected a big leap in performance. That hasn't happened.
Fair enough if that is the case, but it's not something that has suddenly happened. I just assumed my previous vinyl set ups were too low rent to show it up, now I've invested a reasonable amount in a decent analogue set up I expected a big leap in performance. That hasn't happened.
I agree with Neil here Matt, maybe something is not quite right with your system set up or associated equipment?
farflungstar
06-01-2017, 22:13
Daft question - is everything in phase, SRA correct, antiskate spot on....
Adey
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As far as I'm aware Adey, yes. I can check properly in the light tomorrow but there's not much to go wrong really, it's all straight forward stuff.
farflungstar
06-01-2017, 23:26
Hahaha - perfect vinyl playback is anything but simple and can at times take my breath away and at others make me wish I had a CD players consistency!
But as others have said there's something wrong if you're only getting a 2D sound - that isn't vinyl, even with a £25 cart.
Make sure you're phono leads aren't wired out of phase, or the cart is out of phase - check the cart isn't phase inverting, or your phono stage. An out of phase system normally presents a flat wall of sound - in my experience, others may think differently.
You could experiment and try inverting one channel at the cart tags, see how it sounds, then invert the other - it's easy to check. If that doesn't help repeat but inverting at the binding posts of a speaker (s) - if the cart end fixes it then the problem is with the front end. If it's fixed by inverting a speaker (s) then it's somewhere in the chain between TT and speakers.
Grrrr
Adey
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Spectral Morn
07-01-2017, 08:32
What is your system, all of it please, room size etc too. Post some photos would be helpful too. Let's see if anything obvious jumps out as not being right.
Haselsh1
07-01-2017, 08:57
Technically it's a mixed bag. Vinyl carries information down into the subsonic and over 20khz - whereas digital sticks to a meagre 20hz-20khz - but many carts don't share vinyls extended frequency range and so these vital clues about spatiality are lost. Likewise most carts are limited by dynamic range and separation.
Of course some break this norm, the Clear Audio Goldfinger has 90db dynamic range (if memory serves), and whilst most carts struggle for 30db separation my Allaerts cruises at 70db separation - the top one at around 90db.
Adey
Sent from my Aquaris E4.5 using Tapatalk
Yes I agree with the brickwall filtering on CD but vinyl has a lump of rock tracking a physical groove and the limitations there are massive. All low frequency information on vinyl has to be cut in mono otherwise it cannot be tracked, all extreme stereo effects have to be closed in otherwise once again it cannot be tracked. That stylus is so restricted in its operation that it is never going to have the freedom of digital regardless of how expensive that cartridge was.
These limitations are physical and fixed. CD does not suffer the same kind of limitations even though it has its own set of limits.
HackneyRF
07-01-2017, 09:13
What is your system, all of it please, room size etc too. Post some photos would be helpful too. Let's see if anything obvious jumps out as not being right.
What a great idea Neil, can we have that as a sticky? ;)
Haselsh1
07-01-2017, 09:13
And of course, tracking below 20Hz is seriously not a good idea unless you want to track record warps and other low frequency anomalies. This would once again cause problems with a stylus tracing a physical groove. It would also cause serious problems with loudspeaker cone excursions that would be very negative to music reproduction.
Technically it's a mixed bag. Vinyl carries information down into the subsonic and over 20khz - whereas digital sticks to a meagre 20hz-20khz - but many carts don't share vinyls extended frequency range and so these vital clues about spatiality are lost. Likewise most carts are limited by dynamic range and separation.
Adey
Sent from my Aquaris E4.5 using Tapatalk
CD has a response of 2Hz to 20K Hz within 0.5 dB. it is flat down to 20Hz but does not cut off at that point. Also bass is recorded in stereo below 40Hz, on vinyl bass is mono at this frequency. Also, unless you are talking about recent recordings, there will be nothing on the recording above 20khz and likely nothing above 16khz due to the limitations of the equipment (mics, tape machines) in the recording studio.
Simply put, there is no technical reason whatsoever why digital would not produce holographic imaging as good as or even better than vinyl. I grant you that in the real world this is often not the case however the reasons for that are unlikely to include the frequency response of the medium which is more than adequate for 95% of recordings.
Spectral Morn
07-01-2017, 10:54
What a great idea Neil, can we have that as a sticky? ;)
Not everyone lists their gear in the Welcome section. Frankly I think the gear should be listed in the opening post particularly if its of a problem solving kind, which this one is.
I went and looked and I am not familiar first hand with any of the kit so I can't offer any advice specific to it.
In a general sense I would say to Matt, change the speaker cable QED 79 strand is not what you should be using with high end gear. What is the turntable sitting on. Rega's used to be very fussy re what they sit on, almost to the point that unless it was on a wall-shelf, mounted on a solid wall it would not perform properly, air and structural vibration would muddy the performance. Modern Rega's the new design may no longer be as fussy, over and above what any turntable needs.
Don't site the turntable on a wobbly piece of furniture, don't site it on a very heavy piece of furniture. Best not to mount it in a corner behind the speakers, or directly to the side. A dedicated hifi stand is best, light weight - I think the Rega will prefer that - but one that can be levelled is vital. A turntable will never perform properly unless its fully level. Don't put the amp under the turntable, its possible that the magnetic field from the transformers might effect cartridge performance.
Dress cables so that the phono cable isn't near any mains cables.
After getting the turntable level, on a suitable dedicated HiFi table then the turntable needs to be set right. Tracking at the correct weight, bias set right. The VTA must be set right so that the cart is tracking the groove correctly. With normal vinyl and 180 gram or even 200 gram that makes things a bit harder particularly if the arm doesn't have VTA adjustment on the fly, its fixed or requires spacers to change the height. When setting this go for an average between height so I would set to suit between normal vinyl thickness and 180 gram. Its also required that the cantilever sits in the centre of the record groove so the cart must be adjusted to do so. Don't do this by the carts body as frankly very few cantilevers are mounted to be straight and symmetrical in the body, there will always be a degree of misalignment and its vital the cantilever is centre to the record groove, so both sides of the wall is read equally by the stylus.
Use a good alignment gauge, a bright light source, use a good magnifying glass. Take your time and small errors are amplified in play back so get the set up as close to perfect as you can, and you will hear that.
Hope the above helps and if you know all this then apology for trying to teaching Granny to suck.....
Yeah I listed it in my welcome post as per forum request.
I'm about to go out an donly had chance for a quick look, seems ok. What I have noticed is noisy (high pitched whistle) valve in the amp (ECC83) and have replaced it which has cured the noise, but I don't have time to test it. Although I'm not sure how that would manifest only in vinyl playback and not digital.
As for your other suggestions, thanks. TT is well sited, level and whilst not wall mounted I have solid floors and it doesn't seem to suffer from any room interaction.
Arm is fixed VTA and cart is designed for TT/arm combo so it's spot on.
Never noticed any difference from speaker cables, unless they're designed in such a bat s**t crazy way as to mess with stuff. Always had best results with simple copper cable of sufficient mm2.
Spectral Morn
07-01-2017, 11:11
Yeah I listed it in my welcome post as per forum request.
I'm about to go out an donly had chance for a quick look, seems ok. What I have noticed is noisy (high pitched whistle) valve in the amp (ECC83) and have replaced it which has cured the noise, but I don't have time to test it. Although I'm not sure how that would manifest only in vinyl playback and not digital.
I also wonder if 12 watts is enough to drive your Epos right. Epos of old were a hard drive. I am wondering if the difference in output between digital sources and vinyl could mean that your digital source is providing more voltage for the amp to drive the speakers and the vinyl isn't. I have heard set ups in the past that show a major deficiency re vinyl playback and work well on digital, and this because there wasn't enough signal via vinyl to amplify a hard speaker load.
The two most memorable/huge soundstages I've heard were both top-flight digital sources, in really large rooms. One system used Audio Physics Virgos, the other Wilson Sashas. Both had the speakers about 20 feet apart, with the listening chair more than 20 feet away, and both imaged literally 'out of the room' ... drummers out in the garden, etc. Separation of musicians was pin-point, and they both had noticable 'height' to the illusion as well. Strangely enough, I have rarely experienced the same thing at shows, even in the big rooms at Whittlebury, which leads me to think it takes quite a bit of work and luck to get it right. IME it's possible to get part-way there with near-field listening, but then you have to keep your head still ... or, in my room, sit on the floor :lol:
Spectral Morn
07-01-2017, 14:04
Yeah I listed it in my welcome post as per forum request.
I'm about to go out an donly had chance for a quick look, seems ok. What I have noticed is noisy (high pitched whistle) valve in the amp (ECC83) and have replaced it which has cured the noise, but I don't have time to test it. Although I'm not sure how that would manifest only in vinyl playback and not digital.
As for your other suggestions, thanks. TT is well sited, level and whilst not wall mounted I have solid floors and it doesn't seem to suffer from any room interaction.
Arm is fixed VTA and cart is designed for TT/arm combo so it's spot on.
Never noticed any difference from speaker cables, unless they're designed in such a bat s**t crazy way as to mess with stuff. Always had best results with simple copper cable of sufficient mm2.
There are shim/spacers available from Rega to raise the arm up. Of course if the bottom of the cart is parallel to the top of the vinyl then its fine.
The speaker cable you are using is only suitable for a budget system, not yours. Your comment tells me all I need to know regarding that so I will leave you to it.
Idlewithnodrive
07-01-2017, 14:22
IME it's possible to get part-way there with near-field listening, but then you have to keep your head still ... or, in my room, sit on the floor :lol:
I agree 100% with this. It is as much about speaker / room interaction, speaker to listener positioning as it is ancillary equipment (and recording quality of course).
My system is very low rent but my imaging is excellent, largely because I sit near field, at anally 'magic triangle' set-up dimensions, with next to no room interactions.
As Peter says, best to sit dead still for the full effect though :)
337alant
07-01-2017, 14:30
I think the imaging is a mixed bag as well depends on the actual recording and mastering
BTW R2R images very nicely as well
Alan
dave2010
07-01-2017, 15:33
I really don't know. I think getting the room right is very important, as well as the kit. Switching the phase of speakers (which ought really to be done by a very simple switch) or possibly even other devices in a device chain should make an audible difference if other factors are good. In some furnished rooms it is very hard to be sure which is the correct relative (L-R) phasing of stereo speaker set ups, as the furniture and reflections have a big effect. Go multi-channel (I don't suppose we're really thinking that here ...) and things will get worse. If you can't be sure of the imaging on such relative phase reversals I personally would be surprised if it made a difference what source - digital, tape, vinyl etc is used. If you have a good listening room, then there is a possibility that imaging will differ due to various factors, but without that I think other effects will be swamped by the room acoustics.
It may be placebo, but it seems better since swapping the noisy valve.
Just to add to the above -
Just sat through JC From Folsom Prison, JC From San Quentin and now Kraftwerk Autobahn and there is definitely a massive improvement, it can only have been that duff valve, I'm not sure how it effected vinyl more than digital but it can only be that.
I'm now looking forward to trying both a step up into the MM stage in the Luxman and a new cart at some stage as I don't think the Apheta is up to much if I'm honest.
The speaker cable you are using is only suitable for a budget system, not yours. Your comment tells me all I need to know regarding that so I will leave you to it.
Likewise that comment tells me all I need to know ;)
With regard to HiFi, the best digital has the dynamic contrast & 3D soundstage (and subjective 'naturalness') of good analogue, and the best analogue has the precision & neutrality of good digital.
...big problem is there's a lot of better masterings out there on old vinyl, sometimes vice-versa (more so now with digitally remastered vinyl), making the CD / vinyl argument rather moot in a lot of cases.
With regard to HiFi, the best digital has the dynamic contrast & 3D soundstage (and subjective 'naturalness') of good analogue, and the best analogue has the precision & neutrality of good digital.
Like it!
dave2010
10-01-2017, 20:27
And of course, tracking below 20Hz is seriously not a good idea unless you want to track record warps and other low frequency anomalies. This would once again cause problems with a stylus tracing a physical groove. It would also cause serious problems with loudspeaker cone excursions that would be very negative to music reproduction.I guess that rules out some organ music with notes from 32 foot or even 64 foot stops, then. Is it really impossible to do that?
May not be too pleasant, but I think it's possible with some systems.
I think he lowest note on a pipe organ is 8Hz but only a few can do it. The Atlantic City one for example. But a vinyl LP won't do 16hz, no matter how much you spend on equipment. You will only hear the harmonic, in mono.
I think he lowest note on a pipe organ is 8Hz but only a few can do it. The Atlantic City one for example. But a vinyl LP won't do 16hz, no matter how much you spend on equipment. You will only hear the harmonic, in mono.
You won't here 8Hz on any HIFI system and you would be very lucky to hear 16Hz. Most folks speakers probably only do 40Hz or maybe 30Kz.
Not true, there are systems that will go that low. The celestions I used to have had output down below 20 hz. Not flat but useful output still. There are subwoofer designs that will run flat down to that level. You need a few thousand watts of course but power is cheap these days.
farflungstar
11-01-2017, 09:10
You won't hear it but you will feel it. When I had the KEF 107's I would sit there marvelling at the how my body, sofa, doors etc were vibrating like buggery but I couldn't hear owt.
18hz - wonderful.
Adey
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Not true, there are systems that will go that low. The celestions I used to have had output down below 20 hz. Not flat but useful output still. There are subwoofer designs that will run flat down to that level. You need a few thousand watts of course but power is cheap these days.
Err you find me a pair of speakers that do 8Hz. I bet your Celetions did not do 20Hz, they may have quoted that on spec but in real life I bet they didn't.
As I said *most folks* speakers may do 40hz or maybe 30hZ.
walpurgis
11-01-2017, 10:02
1Hz deep enough for you?
http://www.soundandvision.com/content/eminent-technology-trw-17-rotary-subwoofer#yhO82fiH1BgRyJSE.97
Haselsh1
11-01-2017, 10:04
My KEF's apparently do 48Hz but you know what, I wouldn't even know if they were or not. I just love that really low sub bass from a nice suboscillator on a really good synth. Not really bothered about numbers just love that feel.
:eyebrows:
Haselsh1
11-01-2017, 10:05
It used to be said years back that record warps were at 7/8Hz. You really wouldn't want to attempt to track that with a turntable.
walpurgis
11-01-2017, 10:10
Surely warp frequencies are dictated by the record's rate of rotation?
1Hz deep enough for you?
http://www.soundandvision.com/content/eminent-technology-trw-17-rotary-subwoofer#yhO82fiH1BgRyJSE.97
That's not a pair of speakers Geoff:)
walpurgis
11-01-2017, 10:11
That's not a pair of speakers Geoff:)
Use two!! :D
Stratmangler
11-01-2017, 10:12
As I said *most folks* speakers may do 40hz or maybe 30hZ.
I suspect that most folks speakers don't do 40Hz.
Bigman80
11-01-2017, 10:12
I haven't read the entire thread as its way too long so apologies if someone has previously said this .
I have a Marantz pm30 amp, pioneer 70?? Cd player, Chinese £1 interconnects and some Technics speakers off a midi system set up in my garage.
3D, Holographic sound is what that system produces and it's shit. I mean really shit compared to my main system. I have sony ES amp and CD player and my main source is a Toshiba sr370 with ZYX cartridge.
The garage system cost less than my interconnects in the main system. £50 all in
There I was soldering away and it suddenly dawned on mevwhy the sound was presented differently. Speaker placement. My main system is in a long narrow room and the speaker's project over a long but narrow distance. The garage is the opposite. Wide but short.
A quick temporary swap round and voila. 3D Holographic sound on the main system.
So in summary, you can spend as much as you like on components but if your room isn't right, the sound won't be.
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walpurgis
11-01-2017, 10:16
I suspect that most folks speakers don't do 40Hz.
Mine go lower than that.
Haselsh1
11-01-2017, 10:18
I also remember way back many years ago that it was said to reproduce correct low frequencies your room had to be a minimum of 24 feet long so that you could produce a genuine wavelength. I know this has nothing to do with imaging though so apologies, just carrying a conversation that has arisen.
Even the massive Wilson Audio Alexandria XLF only does 19.5 Hz.
Stratmangler
11-01-2017, 10:49
Mine go lower than that.
But you're not most folks.
Err you find me a pair of speakers that do 8Hz. I bet your Celetions did not do 20Hz, they may have quoted that on spec but in real life I bet they didn't.
.
It was verified by independent measurement, they were not flat down to 20Hz, only 35hz, but useful output went below 20Hz (i.e less than 12dB down). The JM labs I have now are flat to 40Hz but do pretty much nothing below that and it is noticeable compared to the Celestions.
Agree with you about most people's speakers but most people tend to use teeny tiny little things that essentially do not do any bass at all.
There are several subwoofer designs that will do 8Hz, I didn't suggest there were speakers that go that low but there might be.
farflungstar
11-01-2017, 12:42
The kef 107's could and did go down to 18hz. The Raven Talons down to 19hz. Whether they go down uniformly I don't know - but any output below 30hz is useful. Good cabinet design, long throw drivers and wide bandwidth equipment, room interaction can all help. The point is, until you've experienced it it's easy (easier) to dismiss what you're missing as non existent or not doable. But that doesnt mean it isn't.
Adey
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Haselsh1
11-01-2017, 12:50
Regarding low frequency sounds I am not really interested in the numbers game. I can easily hear what Younger Brother records on his CD's as well as many more artists and one thing I know from experience is that a synth can go bloody low using a sub oscillator. I just love that low frequency sound that appears to come from everywhere and fills the room with awesomeness. Bloody love it, whatever frequency it is.
Haselsh1
11-01-2017, 12:51
Regarding stereo imaging, I have Uni-Q drivers in my loudspeakers so I am surrounded by swirling images. Bloody love that too.
The kef 107's could and did go down to 18hz. The Raven Talons down to 19hz. Whether they go down uniformly I don't know - but any output below 30hz is useful. Good cabinet design, long throw drivers and wide bandwidth equipment, room interaction can all help. The point is, until you've experienced it it's easy (easier) to dismiss what you're missing as non existent or not doable. But that doesnt mean it isn't.
Adey
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I agree with you Adrian anything below 30Hz has lots of info that substantiates everything else. Scale especially is good when you get to around 30-40Kz and below. It seems to allow the ear to hear the high frequency stuff better and with greater definition.
I am just pissed off I can only manage about 60Hz and would need a much larger room and speakers to achieve what I would like to hear.
more bass you say! https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15965044_1225540427535507_175740195684450412_n.jpg ?oh=e45ac22766ebef9b45ed23da301ba0e3&oe=590F0B45
saw the photo on the yaqin facebook page and couldn't resist
paulf-2007
13-01-2017, 21:00
Isn't imaging an illusion created by engineers in the digital domain, if so only modern vinyl should be compared with digital.
walpurgis
13-01-2017, 21:08
Isn't imaging an illusion created by engineers in the digital domain, if so only modern vinyl should be compared with digital.
Even old 78's on a good mono acoustic record player 'image'. Surprisingly well actually. Assuming one's idea of imaging is the interpretation of ambient depth and positioning.
Isn't imaging an illusion created by engineers in the digital domain, if so only modern vinyl should be compared with digital.
No. Imaging is due to our brains interpreting fine spatial details, it's not a trick recording technique. As per a previous post, old mono recordings do it and to my mind do it more realistically than stereo.
dimkasta
14-01-2017, 00:08
Isn't imaging an illusion created by engineers in the digital domain, if so only modern vinyl should be compared with digital.
Well no... We surely all have experienced that "created illusion" like one tom drum coming from the far left and the other one from the far right...
Proper live recordings really do not need digital post processing. Just solid sound engineering
Take for example older direct to tape club recordings or orchestral recordings made with the Decca tree arrangement.
About the original question, yes vinyl can have super detailed and 3d imaging, but it is not cheap and requires heavy optimisation in setup and matching of all components. It's not plug and play or mix and match.
paulf-2007
14-01-2017, 12:33
Then it's all in your heads. My interpretation of imaging is best heard through single driver speakers.
Nothing is best heard through single driver speakers....
dimkasta
14-01-2017, 15:00
Then it's all in your heads. My interpretation of imaging is best heard through single driver speakers.
Bold statement from someone who advocates sacrificing frequency extremes (along with ambience) and complex transient response for mid clarity.
Another single driver user here ;). I dont think im missing much
Rothchild
14-01-2017, 19:27
Mono can only have one dimension of space (front to back) stereo can have front back and left / right.
Stereo is sort of an illusion (albeit one based on reality) but it doesn't need digital to recreate it just a stereo mic technique and 2 recording channels.
Alan Blumlein is, in large part, the man we have to thank for stereo (and a bunch of other stuff), well worth reading up on his achievements.
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