DIY RCA cables - pure silver vs silver coated copper

[Lawrence001]

I've got the chance to get some silver coated cables, 4 strands in a litz weave, I'm just wondering if it will make a decent cable. Does anyone know the answers to these questions please?

-Does it have some of the beneficial properties of pure silver cable?

-It has a thin plastic coating round the strands, does the litz weave make up for the lack of thick shielding?

Could it make a decent speaker cable?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[farflungstar]

Without getting into cable wars - I've researched this and some think that the silver plating/skin effect leads to phase distortion. Pure is better.

Adey

Sent from my Aquaris E4.5 using Tapatalk

[Bigman80]

From what I've read, the silver plate carries the HF and the copper carries the LF. Can sound good as I have some my TT at present. They sound very good to me. Lots of bottom end and really good detail.

This kind of thread always causes a row lol

Get some and try it.

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

[Lawrence001]

Thanks I agree that "suck it and see" is the best way to find out given the disparate views on cables in general.

@Bigman80 do you use a branded cable? I would be interested in seeing some reviews for silver plated copper cables.

I'll get enough cables made up to change my system from the current pure silver cabling and decide which suits me best. As I don't want low quality plugs to be the weak spot in the chain what are good quality but also good value RCAs to use?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[farflungstar]

According to some (I'm being so bloody careful) hi frequencies are carried on the outer skin of any cable - and it's the migration from one metal type to the other that can cause distortion - perceived as extra detail.

My ane-s are internally wired with ludicrously expensive silver cable (500£ 0.5m) but until I changed my copper speaker cables to.... copper cables... didn't sound particularly detailed! They do now, but not because of the silver - just a different type of copper/construction cable.

I figured that if I wanted to bring about a real change then it would be better to begin at the arm, followed by interconnects, but as there are hundreds of meters of copper cabling in the transformers of my valve amps I couldn't see the point - if copper softens the detail from upstream silver...

Hmmmm

Adey

Sent from my Aquaris E4.5 using Tapatalk

[Lawrence001]

Interesting points there. Yes putting in £1000/m cable in series with a different (presumably cheaper) cable does seem to be counter intuitive.

This all began with my Hifiman headphones which use a silver plated litz cable, and I like the sound but it is possible the apparent detail is actually skin induced distortion.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[farflungstar]

It's a difficult subject to discuss as opinions are so polarised. I've read and reread and read and reread countless articles and forum posts to try and find an answer when looking to replace my speaker cables and interconnects. Logic told me to use the same silver audio note silver cabling and maintain type - but I just couldn't justify spending 2k on a couple of metres. Plus litz is not the best speaker cable for valve amps - which according to some prefer solid core - and as the last bit of wire is in the transformers which are solid magnet wire I figure theres some logic in it. Hence the isolda which is solid.

For interconnects I reckon it's worth a try - but I'd still go for solid over plated.

Adey

Sent from my Aquaris E4.5 using Tapatalk

[Arkless Electronics]

Without getting into cable wars - I've researched this and some think that the silver plating/skin effect leads to phase distortion. Pure is better.

Adey

Sent from my Aquaris E4.5 using Tapatalk

What is this strange new science of which you speak? :lol:

If you needed ultimate efficiency of power transfer at frequencies of around 2MHz then litz (shortened from litzendraht, German for woven or stranded wire) may increase efficiency, by minimising skin effect and proximity effect, such that there may be an improvement of maybe 2-6%... but bugger all effect at audio frequencies.

Phase distortion due to the metallic make up of a conductor is impossible.

[Light Dependant Resistor]

IMO the definitive read about cables and audio frequencies is written by Cyril Bateman
here discussing the speaker amp cable relationship so a wee bit off topic.

http://www.waynekirkwood.com/images/pdf/Cyril_Bateman/Bateman_Speaker_Amp_Interaction.pdf

Also
http://www.waynekirkwood.com/images/pdf/Cyril_Bateman/Bateman_Measuring_Cables.pdf

[Reffc]

IMO the definitive read about cables and audio frequencies is written by Cyril Bateman
here discussing the speaker amp cable relationship so a wee bit off topic.

http://www.waynekirkwood.com/images/pdf/Cyril_Bateman/Bateman_Speaker_Amp_Interaction.pdf

Also
http://www.waynekirkwood.com/images/pdf/Cyril_Bateman/Bateman_Measuring_Cables.pdf

+1

Great article.

As Jez points out, there is little evidence for any phase distortion between dissimilar metals in signal interconnects with audio frequencies. That's a myth popularised by forums and marketeers, one of those things that's repeated so often that some people then believe it and propagate it further. Litz braid (as apposed to pure litz wire) is a BAD idea for a single ended interconnect as there is no common mode noise rejection in play, so screening effectiveness is practically zero, plus capacitance is usually quite high. The capacitance doesn't matter as much for signal cables (except where used for phono leads from MM cartridges) as it does for loudpeaker cables but the braided cables irrespective of being silver, gold or unobtanium are bested in almost every area by inexpensive copper coaxial cables where single ended circuits are concerned.

[farflungstar]

Here are George Cardas' 2 cents on the subject:

"Q&A with George Cardas

jude: All of your interconnects are made with copper conductors. And in one of your catalogs is the following quote: "Copper has proven to be the best conductor for an audio signal..." Lately there has been a strong emphasis on silver conductors by many cable manufacturers. In general, do you consider copper a better conductor for an audio signal than silver?

George Cardas: In general, yes. We make the majority of all the ultra pure copper and silver used in high-end audio; but I choose to use only the ultra pure, ultra soft copper in my personal products.

jude: Why?

George Cardas: For starters, it sounds better. Silver is the best DC conductor, but, embodiment for embodiment, it is more inductive than copper. This trait, combined with its inherently lower loss, accounts for the bright, fatiguing quality of most of the silver cables (silver has approximately 5% more skin effect than copper). There have been many attempts at silver cables but little success. I think the problem in part is the cost of doing a proper conductor out of the metal. By the time the manufacturer buys the metal, there is little budget for a properly designed conductor; so they just use a monofilament solid core. This complicates an already bright situation. Silver is also a relatively hard metal and difficult to anneal. Hard coppers (linear crystal, etc.) also failed because of their tendency to ring mechanically. Electrically, silver is like a speaker box with no damping material. It will be more efficient, but it will have a definite "sound". All in all, your money is far better spent on good conductor geometry and copper.

jude: What is your opinion of silver-plated and/or silver-clad copper as an audio conductor?

George Cardas: Silly. The propagation and transfer impedance of the metals differs and their juncture is diodic. Ensuring a constant transfer is important. Silver and plating make some sense in very high frequency applications, such as video, but are not a good idea in audio."

Sent from my Aquaris E4.5 using Tapatalk

[Bigman80]

Well that's pretty definitive.

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

[Lawrence001]

I'm currently enjoying the diy silver braided interconnects in my system I bought off this or another forum so by most of the arguments above (except the potential skin effect issue) chucking some copper into the equation should improve matters!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Light Dependant Resistor]

But skirting around the real issues, namely he is a cable manufacturer , and is not informing
that ideally there should be as little plug socket connection as possible, as they are yet another form of switch
involving audio signals passing from one surface to another.

What he would like to say is either solder all connections or better still weld them , but is not quite that brave,
as are very few of us.

[farflungstar]

Yes he's a cable manufacturer - saying use good copper - so what's your point? Here's not saying use silver or anything esoteric...

Adey

Sent from my Aquaris E4.5 using Tapatalk

[Reffc]

Well that's pretty definitive.

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

Is it though?

I agree with some of what he's written but certainly not all of it.

Nothing is definitive unless evidenced.

[farflungstar]

Please provide the evidence that explains why we cry or feel uplifted by a piece if music....

Adey

Sent from my Aquaris E4.5 using Tapatalk

[Bigman80]

All I know for 100% is I have used

99.9% pure silver tonearm wire
99.9% pure copper tonearm wire

Copper Klotz interconnects with MSAudio rhodium plugs

And finally

Silver plated interconnects with MSAudio rhodium plugs

In my system right now I have

Copper in the tonearm and silver plated Interconnects and it sounds bloody fantastic. I don't care if it's distortion that makes it sound so good, it just sounds wonderful.

The silver plate cable came from Firebottle who informs me it's £3 per meter.

Incidentally, I have copper from CD to amp. Which also sounds fabulous.

Make of that what you will

I think a lot depends on the components and matching the right cables to them.

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

[farflungstar]

Agreed.
Adey

Sent from my Aquaris E4.5 using Tapatalk

[Arkless Electronics]

Here are George Cardas' 2 cents on the subject:

"Q&A with George Cardas

jude: All of your interconnects are made with copper conductors. And in one of your catalogs is the following quote: "Copper has proven to be the best conductor for an audio signal..." Lately there has been a strong emphasis on silver conductors by many cable manufacturers. In general, do you consider copper a better conductor for an audio signal than silver?

George Cardas: In general, yes. We make the majority of all the ultra pure copper and silver used in high-end audio; but I choose to use only the ultra pure, ultra soft copper in my personal products.

jude: Why?

George Cardas: For starters, it sounds better. Silver is the best DC conductor, but, embodiment for embodiment, it is more inductive than copper. This trait, combined with its inherently lower loss, accounts for the bright, fatiguing quality of most of the silver cables (silver has approximately 5% more skin effect than copper). There have been many attempts at silver cables but little success. I think the problem in part is the cost of doing a proper conductor out of the metal. By the time the manufacturer buys the metal, there is little budget for a properly designed conductor; so they just use a monofilament solid core. This complicates an already bright situation. Silver is also a relatively hard metal and difficult to anneal. Hard coppers (linear crystal, etc.) also failed because of their tendency to ring mechanically. Electrically, silver is like a speaker box with no damping material. It will be more efficient, but it will have a definite "sound". All in all, your money is far better spent on good conductor geometry and copper.

jude: What is your opinion of silver-plated and/or silver-clad copper as an audio conductor?

George Cardas: Silly. The propagation and transfer impedance of the metals differs and their juncture is diodic. Ensuring a constant transfer is important. Silver and plating make some sense in very high frequency applications, such as video, but are not a good idea in audio."

Sent from my Aquaris E4.5 using Tapatalk

Utter rubbish! Obviously written in the hope that no one with any knowledge of electricity reads it!! The barefaced lies from some in the industry are beyond a joke....

[Bigman80]

Utter rubbish! Obviously written in the hope that no one with any knowledge of electricity reads it!! The barefaced lies from some in the industry are beyond a joke....
Educate us Jez, why does silver sound brighter than copper?

It definitely does, I've tried it but don't know why it does.

Does a thicker cable do a better job than thin cable ???

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

[farflungstar]

So, all capacitors sound the same, all SUTs sound the same, all resistors sound the same, all variants of copper sounds the same, in fact everything - all black vinyl too - that's great news - now I can stop spending money on pointless upgrades or paying electricians to put in dedicated lines. Yippeee the earth is flat!

Adey

Sent from my Aquaris E4.5 using Tapatalk

[Reffc]

Please provide the evidence that explains why we cry or feel uplifted by a piece if music....

Adey

Sent from my Aquaris E4.5 using Tapatalk

What has that got to do with passing off pseudo-babble science about signal propagation as truth? "Nothing whatsoever" is the answer ;)

Let's just take one example from the fairy tale explanation on offer, about metal junctions in wires (ie between copper and silver plating) acting in a "diodic" way. This implies that the junction behaves as a diode, passing current in one direction and not the other. That is utter nonsense. Jez knows it, I know it, and all other audio engineers know it. We deal in facts, not fairy tales. However, we are singing from the same hymn book as yourself. We want music to trigger an emotional response, so how we go about designing and making things is geared around doing just that. We're not looking for cable wars, we're trying to add perspective. The trade guys on here are all pretty much good guys, and believe it or not, we do try our best to look out for other AoS members. There's a healthy balance of opinion on AoS which makes it a pleasant Hifi forum to visit, but there's also a wealth of knowledge on tap, and for anyone who wants it, a wealth of guidance available. All we're saying is beware pseudo science like that above. Like all "good" pseudo science, there are aspects of truth in some of what is said, but usually taken so far out of context that it is in Jez's own words "a joke" that some respected characters in audio are still pushing this stuff purely for marketing purposes.

[Arkless Electronics]

Educate us Jez, why does silver sound brighter than copper?

It definitely does, I've tried it but don't know why it does.

Does a thicker cable do a better job than thin cable ???

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

I can't be arsed.... If some were told that smearing their cables with butter would make for a smoother sound there would be grease marks on the carpet up and down the country....

Maybe you lot should try putting your interconnects in a pyramid overnight....

I'm outa here....

[Arkless Electronics]

What has that got to do with passing off pseudo-babble science about signal propagation as truth? "Nothing whatsoever" is the answer ;)

Let's just take one example from the fairy tale explanation on offer, about metal junctions in wires (ie between copper and silver plating) acting in a "diodic" way. This implies that the junction behaves as a diode, passing current in one direction and not the other. That is utter nonsense. Jez knows it, I know it, and all other audio engineers know it. We deal in facts, not fairy tales. However, we are singing from the same hymn book as yourself. We want music to trigger an emotional response, so how we go about designing and making things is geared around doing just that. We're not looking for cable wars, we're trying to add perspective. The trade guys on here are all pretty much good guys, and believe it or not, we do try our best to look out for other AoS members. There's a healthy balance of opinion on AoS which makes it a pleasant Hifi forum to visit, but there's also a wealth of knowledge on tap, and for anyone who wants it, a wealth of guidance available. All we're saying is beware pseudo science like that above. Like all "good" pseudo science, there are aspects of truth in some of what is said, but usually taken so far out of context that it is in Jez's own words "a joke" that some respected characters in audio are still pushing this stuff purely for marketing purposes.

I'm afraid that too many in hi fi "learn" their "engineering" from journalists, snake oil merchants etc and simply don't want to hear from any body who actually knows what they are talking about... We're wasting our time Paul.

[farflungstar]

My point was that everyone responds differently to what we hear and there is no scientific evidence as to why.

Yes a neutron is a neutron - big deal - but how it behaves is another story depending on the conditions.

H2o is water - but it comes in many flavours depending on adulterants - the same goes for metals, or do you include lead in your cables?

I appreciate that what you've learnt was written by others and propagated at college - but that doesn't make it the LAW. Thats your argument about psuedo science but it applies equally to your own propaganda.

Ask a metallurgist about how metals change when treated, annealed, mixed etc and they might have a different opinion. You're speaking about a metals ability to conduct an electrical current - but again a capacitor is made up of 2 metal plates that create capacitance - obviously cables can behave the same - hence the Isolda effect.

I don't believe in snake oil. I dont believe in hype. But I do believe my system and my ears. My isoldas cost a packet and came with a no quibble refund policy - but they are staying because in comparison to the previous cables they are a major leap in clarity and extension.

According to your theory this is my imagination. That is utter rubbish.

Adey



Sent from my Aquaris E4.5 using Tapatalk

[Lawrence001]

I'm totally agnostic on this I've owned several normal price cables from QED Qnect to Silver spiral via Cambridge studio reference. The latter was my favourite and I saw no reason to change until I saw the thread offering some litz style braided silver interconnects cheap, i stuck them in and never felt the urge to even compare to anything else I owned they were just "fine". Maybe I'll start doing some comparisons against my old cables and the new silver plated once I've made them up.

I'd be interested to know if the £3/m was for braided or single wire.

Anyway can anyone recommend any good value RCA plugs?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bigman80]

I'm totally agnostic on this I've owned several normal price cables from QED Qnect to Silver spiral via Cambridge studio reference. The latter was my favourite and I saw no reason to change until I saw the thread offering some litz style braided silver interconnects cheap, i stuck them in and never felt the urge to even compare to anything else I owned they were just "fine". Maybe I'll start doing some comparisons against my old cables and the new silver plated once I've made them up.

I'd be interested to know if the £3/m was for braided or single wire.

Anyway can anyone recommend any good value RCA plugs?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
MS Audio RCA's on eBay are very good IMO.

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

[RothwellAudio]

-Does it have some of the beneficial properties of pure silver cable?

-It has a thin plastic coating round the strands, does the litz weave make up for the lack of thick shielding?


1) What are the beneficial properties of pure silver? The only benefit of which I'm aware is lower resistance. However, the difference is only about 5% (conductor diameter and length assumed equal) and the resistance of a 1m interconnect is already vanishingly small.

2) What would be the benefit of thick shielding over thin shielding? Thick shielding between strands would keep the strands farther apart but I'm not sure what benefit that would have.

[RothwellAudio]

According to your theory this is my imagination. That is utter rubbish.

I watched Derren Brown on the TV recently. It was amazing. He's always amazing. If anyone ever doubts just how powerful the imagination can be they should watch one of his shows.
BTW, that doesn't mean I think the effects produced by the imagination aren't "real" - it means I think all our perceptions are filtered and processed by our minds and our imaginations, so trying to discriminate between "real" and "imagined" benefits is not a trivial task at all. It may even be pointless to try.

[farflungstar]

So by that reckoning your hype around the superiority of your MC SUTs s is merely manipulation of imagination?
Adey

Sent from my Aquaris E4.5 using Tapatalk

[walpurgis]

I see Jez got it wrong again :rolleyes:. It's not the cables that should be covered in butter. After extensive testing it been proved beyond doubt that it's the amplifier that should be heavily buttered!!

:eek:

[Bigman80]

Lmfao 😂😂😂



Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

[Lawrence001]

1) What are the beneficial properties of pure silver? The only benefit of which I'm aware is lower resistance. However, the difference is only about 5% (conductor diameter and length assumed equal) and the resistance of a 1m interconnect is already vanishingly small.

2) What would be the benefit of thick shielding over thin shielding? Thick shielding between strands would keep the strands farther apart but I'm not sure what benefit that would have.

1. I'm referring to the properties (perceived or real) that make people pay more for precious metal interconnects over copper.

2. I assumed that thicker shielding (and here I'm referring to the plastic insulating coating round the wire not any metal type of shielding) keeps out more RFI than thinner, I may be completely wrong of course. In which case I have no concerns about the thinness of the plastic around the thin strands making up my litz cable.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[farflungstar]

This reminds me of conversations with people who believe there is no benefit to be gained from leaving thier beloved AT95e £25 cart. Pointless. I will now exit the conversation, along with my highly resolving system and ears - and my self delusion. Whose self delusion...?
Adey

Sent from my Aquaris E4.5 using Tapatalk

[RothwellAudio]

So by that reckoning your hype around the superiority of your MC SUTs s is merely manipulation of imagination?
I think the "hype" applied to my SUTs is minimal compared to the hype which SUTs are generally subject to. The difference between my SUTs and most others is that I pay very close attention to the way HF ringing is dealt with.


This reminds me of conversations with people who believe there is no benefit to be gained from leaving thier beloved AT95e £25 cart. Pointless. I will now exit the conversation, along with my highly resolving system and ears - and my self delusion. Whose self delusion...?

I apologise if you found my comments offensive - no offence was intended. You are of course correct - belief is a very powerful thing.

[RothwellAudio]

1. I'm referring to the properties (perceived or real) that make people pay more for precious metal interconnects over copper.

2. I assumed that thicker shielding (and here I'm referring to the plastic insulating coating round the wire not any metal type of shielding) keeps out more RFI than thinner, I may be completely wrong of course. In which case I have no concerns about the thinness of the plastic around the thin strands making up my litz cable.
The plastic insulation doesn't keep out RFI, merely stops the conductors from touching each other or anything else. Actually, no, that's not quite true - it determines the capacitance between conductors too. It also has other properties which may or may not be important in any particular application. For example, some insulators will cope with higher temperatures than others. Some insulators are more flexible than others.
Anyway, the insulation doesn't keep out RFI.

[Reffc]

I watched Derren Brown on the TV recently. It was amazing. He's always amazing. If anyone ever doubts just how powerful the imagination can be they should watch one of his shows.
BTW, that doesn't mean I think the effects produced by the imagination aren't "real" - it means I think all our perceptions are filtered and processed by our minds and our imaginations, so trying to discriminate between "real" and "imagined" benefits is not a trivial task at all. It may even be pointless to try.

He is rather good isn't he Andrew? :)

Repeat after me:

"silver is like a speaker box......silver is like a speaker box.....silver is like a speaker box..."

http://www.theredheadriter.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/hypnotize5.gif

[Stryder5]

I see Jez got it wrong again :rolleyes:. It's not the cables that should be covered in butter. After extensive testing it been proved beyond doubt that it's the amplifier that should be heavily buttered!!

:eek:

No you can't quote just butter, different blends, makes and thickness have differing effects:D. Now margarine ......there's a test:ner:

[RothwellAudio]

silver is like a speaker box......silver is like a speaker box.....silver is like a speaker box...

It's all becoming clear to me now...all is bliss...all is bliss

[walpurgis]

No you can't quote just butter, different blends, makes and thickness have differing effects:D. Now margarine ......there's a test:ner:

Lard is more musical with valve gear though. ;)

[Stryder5]

The plastic insulation doesn't keep out RFI, merely stops the conductors from touching each other or anything else. Actually, no, that's not quite true - it determines the capacitance between conductors too. It also has other properties which may or may not be important in any particular application. For example, some insulators will cope with higher temperatures than others. Some insulators are more flexible than others.
Anyway, the insulation doesn't keep out RFI.

Plastic is a generic term for many polymers, and certainly can be made to reject rfi.

[RothwellAudio]

Plastic is a generic term for many polymers, and certainly can be made to reject rfi.

Interesting. How does an insulator reject RF?

[Stryder5]

Interesting. How does an insulator reject RF?

Carbon loading, carbon fibre, metallic loading.......just a few.

[Reffc]

My understanding is that plastics can be made to reject RFI by the use of a metal spray solution or carbon applied to the plastic substrate. I have't come across pure polymers able to reject RFI, so like you, would be interested in learning more on this...

[Stryder5]

My understanding is that plastics can be made to reject RFI by the use of a metal spray solution or carbon applied to the plastic substrate. I have't come across pure polymers able to reject RFI, so like you, would be interested in learning more on this...

I don't know where "pure polymer" came from and is it an oxymoron. My comments were around "plastic".

[Lawrence001]

This is all very interesting but doesn't really answer my question - maybe there isn't a simple answer. Can i put it another way? I like these cables in my headphones so when I saw them going cheap I bought a few to make some cables with (but keeping 2-3m with the mini coax end for shorter headphone cables). Will they be any good or am I doomed to failure? Any chance they will make good speaker cables alternatively?

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=271903509936


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lawrence001]

Oops

[RothwellAudio]

Carbon loading, carbon fibre, metallic loading.......just a few.
Yes, but it isn't an insulator then. Conductive plastics are sometimes used in mic cables for screening, but they aren't being used as insulators in that application and require an additional insulating layer.
My original comment stands - the insulation on interconnects doesn't screen them from RFI.


This is all very interesting but doesn't really answer my question - maybe there isn't a simple answer. Can i put it another way? I like these cables in my headphones so when I saw them going cheap I bought a few to make some cables with (but keeping 2-3m with the mini coax end for shorter headphone cables). Will they be any good or am I doomed to failure? Any chance they will make good speaker cables alternatively?

They look a bit thin (and short) for speaker cables, but they would work.

[Stryder5]

[QUOTE=RothwellAudio;820921]Yes, but it isn't an insulator then. Conductive plastics are sometimes used in mic cables for screening, but they aren't being used as insulators in that application and require an additional insulating layer.
My original comment stands - the insulation on interconnects doesn't screen them from RFI.

Doesn't stand, hybrid cables with multiple layers, nowhere did I say single layer cables, and it was you that mentioned insulator, I didn't .

Don't twist word to your own definition.

My comments stand

[sq225917]

Well that's pretty definitive.

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk


its also bullshit, with no basis in proven science.

[Reffc]

Originally Posted by Stryder 5:


Doesn't stand, hybrid cables with multiple layers, nowhere did I say single layer cables, and it was you that mentioned insulator, I didn't .

Don't twist word to your own definition.

My comments stand
You can split hairs or look for arguments until the cows come home but what Andrew says actually still stands. An Insulator, as a homogenous plastic dielectric coating applied to conductors, do not generally reject RFI. The clue is in the term "insulator". We are all perfectly well aware that there are any number of carbon impregnated thermoplastic shields used for dealing with tribolectric/microphone effect but these are usually applied over the dielectric, and not as part of it. That's the distinction being made. What Andrew clearly was alluding to was whether a thermoplastic dielectric could also act as an RFI shield. More usually, RFI rejection is catered for by Mylar foil shields applied over the dielectric just beneath the copper braid shielding.

[Stryder5]

Assertion or fact, interpretation or fact.

There are no clues, plastic and insulator are not synonymous.

I'm not trying to be smart or contentious, excuse me for thinking this was a forum for open discussion.

Hair splitting I leave to others, along with assumptions.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Stryder5]

Originally Posted by Stryder 5:


You can split hairs or look for arguments until the cows come home but what Andrew says actually still stands. An Insulator, as a homogenous plastic dielectric coating applied to conductors, do not generally reject RFI. The clue is in the term "insulator". We are all perfectly well aware that there are any number of carbon impregnated thermoplastic shields used for dealing with tribolectric/microphone effect but these are usually applied over the dielectric, and not as part of it. That's the distinction being made. What Andrew clearly was alluding to was whether a thermoplastic dielectric could also act as an RFI shield. More usually, RFI rejection is catered for by Mylar foil shields applied over the dielectric just beneath the copper braid shielding.

If you insist on making or alluding to items then :-

RFI rejection by Mylar film, Mylar does not reject RFI except when it has a metallic deposit applied. So the construction of a cable using Mylar consists of a conductor, an insulator, a conductive material (Mylar coated foil). Ring any bells?????

[farflungstar]

I think the "hype" applied to my SUTs is minimal compared to the hype which SUTs are generally subject to. The difference between my SUTs and most others is that I pay very close attention to the way HF ringing is dealt with.



I apologise if you found my comments offensive - no offence was intended. You are of course correct - belief is a very powerful thing.
I'm not offended, I just don't like people thinking I'm either delusional or a HiFi snob because I can hear a difference between cables.

I wouldn't have replaced 30£ a metre VDH cable with 25cents twin and earth if it hadn't brought something beneficial to my system or I craved snob value - likewise another change to DNM, likewise Isolda.

I also don't understand why anyone should slag off Cardas, who use nothing exotic and don't pretend to. Their cables are used in studios and 90% of all modern tonearms and their interconnects are widely recognised as excellent. He isn't peddling voodoo - just well made copper cables.

It strikes me as counter intuitive that a rational conversation cannot be had about this topic on a forum supposedly dedicated to sound quality and how to get the best from our systems through shared knowledge and learning.

When people don't understand something because they 'don't get it' they go on the attack through fear. History is littered with examples. I'm surprised it happens on here.

Adey


Sent from my Aquaris E4.5 using Tapatalk

[Stryder5]

I'm not offended, I just don't like people thinking I'm either delusional or a HiFi snob because I can hear a difference between cables.

I wouldn't have replaced 30£ a metre VDH cable with 25cents twin and earth if it hadn't brought something beneficial to my system or I craved snob value - likewise another change to DNM, likewise Isolda.

I also don't understand why anyone should slag off Cardas, who use nothing exotic and don't pretend to. Their cables are used in studios and 90% of all modern tonearms and their interconnects are widely recognised as excellent. He isn't peddling voodoo - just well made copper cables.

It strikes me as counter intuitive that a rational conversation cannot be had about this topic on a forum supposedly dedicated to sound quality and how to get the best from our systems through shared knowledge and learning.

When people don't understand something because they 'don't get it' they go on the attack through fear. History is littered with examples. I'm surprised it happens on here.

Adey


Sent from my Aquaris E4.5 using Tapatalk

Well said!

[walpurgis]

Mylar does not reject RFI except when it has a metallic deposit applied.

Ha. I wondered when somebody would pick up on that. Mylar (Melinex) film has to be vapour deposit coated with Aluminium (normally) before it can act as an RFi shield.

[RothwellAudio]

I assumed that thicker shielding (and here I'm referring to the plastic insulating coating round the wire not any metal type of shielding) keeps out more RFI than thinner, I may be completely wrong of course. In which case I have no concerns about the thinness of the plastic around the thin strands making up my litz cable.


Doesn't stand, hybrid cables with multiple layers, nowhere did I say single layer cables, and it was you that mentioned insulator, I didn't .
The first quote is where plastic insulators were first mentioned and is why I said the insulation doesn't reject RFI.



You can split hairs or look for arguments until the cows come home but what Andrew says actually still stands. An Insulator, as a homogenous plastic dielectric coating applied to conductors, do not generally reject RFI. The clue is in the term "insulator". We are all perfectly well aware that there are any number of carbon impregnated thermoplastic shields used for dealing with tribolectric/microphone effect but these are usually applied over the dielectric, and not as part of it. That's the distinction being made. What Andrew clearly was alluding to was whether a thermoplastic dielectric could also act as an RFI shield. More usually, RFI rejection is catered for by Mylar foil shields applied over the dielectric just beneath the copper braid shielding.
Thank you, I feel I'm under attack for some reason so it's nice to have some support. I think my "crimes" were: 1) mentioning that the imagination is a powerful thing, and 2) saying that insulators don't shield against RFI.
This thread seems to have taken a bit of a nasty turn so I think I'll bow out.

[Light Dependant Resistor]

The principles of twisted pair, and coax are well researched, as guards against interference, so
preserving the media over the given length. These principles are well practiced by every cable manufacturer.

What we see from this when applied to audio systems is a cable with characteristic impedance, but partnering
equipment not satisfying that impedance, and for good reason, as audio systems are generally not regarded as transmission lines.

Suggested by Cyril Bateman applying to amp speaker cable relationship is an insight that reflections do occur
at the upper limits of our perception. http://www.waynekirkwood.com/images/pdf/Cyril_Bateman/Bateman_Speaker_Amp_Interaction.pdf
and the upper limit of our hearing is researched by David Blackmer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_E._Blackmer

So on one hand we borrow a attribute of transmission lines to guard against interference, but the asset of transmission lines applying
at audio frequencies to interconnects, just does not apply.

What is interesting though is applying Zobel networks as Bateman suggests.

Cheers / Chris

[Stryder5]

The first quote is where plastic insulators were first mentioned and is why I said the insulation doesn't reject RFI.


Thank you, I feel I'm under attack for some reason so it's nice to have some support. I think my "crimes" were: 1) mentioning that the imagination is a powerful thing, and 2) saying that insulators don't shield against RFI.
This thread seems to have taken a bit of a nasty turn so I think I'll bow out.

The question you asked was not relevant to the previous comments, you asked " how can an insulator reject RFI ( you actually said RF)" and I answered with the detail of how to do exactly that.

If you ask a question and mean something else, then I misunderstand and apologise.

There are many things that cannot be explained in science or by measurement that actually work and happen, example Bumble Bee flying.

If it's my opinion that I give, then it's just that not dogma. So if people perceive a difference that cables make, it's their opinion, and shouldn't be denied, if some can't hear any difference so be it, but it is an opinion.

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Perhaps mis matched and haphazard forms of Zobel networks already exist in line level equipment with many different RC ( resistive capacitive ) components, and this is what we are hearing
as perceived cable difference.

More examination of all components each end of a cable would start to unravel good or not so good practice, rather than believing the cable
is the single contributor.

Cheers / Chris

[Stryder5]

Perhaps mis matched and haphazard forms of Zobel networks already exist in line level equipment with many different RC ( resistive capacitive ) components, and this is what we are hearing
as perceived cable difference.

More examination of all components each end of a cable would start to unravel good or not so good practice, rather than believing the cable
is the single contributor.

Cheers / Chris

Absolutely wonderful :), I love it. I think most of us say cable, when we actually mean an assembly of cable and connectors.

Lovely can of worms;)

Gary

[farflungstar]

I hope I haven't offended anyone - wasn't my intention. But it's not on that whilst I accept some folks can't hear differences between cables they can't take my opinion/experience with the same grace but resort to ridicule or attempts to explain it away as something else.

When you have my system, my ears, my room and listen you cannot judge what I'm hearing or why.

If my partner slips a new interconnect into my system without me knowing and upon my next listening session I complain that something has changed this cannot be expectation, imagination or anything other than the effects of the new interloper. But maybe I'm psychic and knew all about the change....

Adey

Sent from my Aquaris E4.5 using Tapatalk

[walpurgis]

I hope I haven't offended anyone - wasn't my intention. But it's not on that whilst I accept some folks can't hear differences between cables they can't take my opinion/experience with the same grace but resort to ridicule or attempts to explain it away as something else.

I find the different effects different cables (can) have on the sound perfectly audible and often not subtle either. I refer to analogue interconnects, speaker cables and last but not least 'digital' interconnects.

My feeling is that those who say these differences do not exist or cannot be heard, either refuse to make comparisons or have equipment too inadequate to show up the changes in sound.

Any suggestion that perceived changes may be imagined should not be taken seriously. Most of us have a perfectly decent set of ears and good perceptive skills.

[Light Dependant Resistor]

I hope I haven't offended anyone - wasn't my intention. But it's not on that whilst I accept some folks can't hear differences between cables they can't take my opinion/experience with the same grace but resort to ridicule or attempts to explain it away as something else.

When you have my system, my ears, my room and listen you cannot judge what I'm hearing or why.

If my partner slips a new interconnect into my system without me knowing and upon my next listening session I complain that something has changed this cannot be expectation, imagination or anything other than the effects of the new interloper. But maybe I'm psychic and knew all about the change....

Adey

Sent from my Aquaris E4.5 using Tapatalk

Your experience will always be your own, what the contributors are trying to do is work through perhaps a common denominator
that can be arrived at, that benefits everyone. I am suggesting more examination of the components each end of a cable
internally at the source, midway at the attenuator and lastly at the power amp would help to unravel why cables behave as they do.

If you take the time to read Cyril Batemans article, he is applying solid electronics principles to examining speaker cables
and from this suggests a second and perhaps a third Zobel network apply, with the amplifier cable speaker relationship.

What I am suggesting is that perhaps the benefit this technique brings, also extends to examination of all components
( yes a big can of worms ) from source to power amp, What is being heard as one cable difference to another is not necessarily
the cable itself - even though it appears to be the single contributor, rather it is the other components each end of that cable
internally that are assisting or not assisting as the case may be. End result being the casual end user assesses says Yes it is the cable, when
actually it is many other components not being seen or being considered.

We place trust in manufacturers to get this right, but a quick look at just sensitivity specifications for equipment
proves there is no agreement. You can have with power amps anything from 200mv sensitivity to 3 volts or more.

I think it was Ben Duncan referencing the famous book Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance by Robert Persig who said
"As one door opens, many thousands below it are also flung open "

[farflungstar]

I can understand that - I'm quite sure the whole is connected and am happy to agree that it is the change in interaction between components being fed or feeding the 'new' conduit that accounts for the majority of perceived change. That's been my thinking all along - i understand that the reason the isolda 'sounds' so resolving is most likely the affect its capacitance/inductance is having on the amps and speakers. But that in itself tells you it's the different cable/construction that is ultimately causing the effect, ergo it's the cable. The problem is this cannot be universally defined or applied - unless everyone had the same amps, speakers etc, because of interaction.

I still believe high purity, single core copper is the best choice - but that's just my opinion. I also think dielectrics and construction plays a major role in changing the characteristics of the cable/interaction.

Rather than being harangued it would be more useful if non believers asked 'what changes did you hear? Why do you think you heard them? Have you considered it may be ...?'

Most of us are open to rational debate - and nothing is ever black and white, but it isn't those who believe in cable affects that start shouting Tosh and Utter rubbish at non believers - it's the other way round - always.

Adey

Sent from my Aquaris E4.5 using Tapatalk

[Firebottle]

I find the different effects different cables (can) have on the sound perfectly audible and often not subtle either.

My feeling is that those who say these differences do not exist or cannot be heard, either refuse to make comparisons or have equipment too inadequate to show up the changes in sound.

Any suggestion that perceived changes may be imagined should not be taken seriously. Most of us have a perfectly decent set of ears and good perceptive skills.

This ^^^

:)

[Gordon Steadman]

It seems to me that to suggest that those who do not believe in the whole cable thing must have lesser equipment is as unpleasant as to suggest that those who do are imagining it.

I am firmly in the flash cables are a waste of time camp, have been for the last 50 years. This is not to say they don't change the sound. When I had a set of ears that worked properly, I could hear differences just not improvements. Nice thick copper has always been my choice. Anything that changed the sound was just doing that as far as I'm concerned. If you prefer the changed sound fine but you won't convince me you have higher fidelity, merely changed.

Quite why this subject causes such intense emotion is a mystery but then what isn't about human belief systems? Nowt as queer as folk and even thee's a little queer - probably a bit un PC these days but still as true as ever:)

[Reffc]

The principles of twisted pair, and coax are well researched, as guards against interference, so
preserving the media over the given length. These principles are well practiced by every cable manufacturer.

What we see from this when applied to audio systems is a cable with characteristic impedance, but partnering
equipment not satisfying that impedance, and for good reason, as audio systems are generally not regarded as transmission lines.

Suggested by Cyril Bateman applying to amp speaker cable relationship is an insight that reflections do occur
at the upper limits of our perception. http://www.waynekirkwood.com/images/pdf/Cyril_Bateman/Bateman_Speaker_Amp_Interaction.pdf
and the upper limit of our hearing is researched by David Blackmer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_E._Blackmer

So on one hand we borrow a attribute of transmission lines to guard against interference, but the asset of transmission lines applying
at audio frequencies to interconnects, just does not apply.

What is interesting though is applying Zobel networks as Bateman suggests.

Cheers / Chris

:)


I'd agree with most of that but would add that audio systems are never considered as transmission lines, because really they're not. Guarding against interference is not uniquely exclusive to transmission line theory. Moving on though, the points made earlier are pretty important, ie about what the cables are connected to. Far too often, cables are considered in isolation within a system, and conclusions made about effects attributed to cables alone, when the truth is they are simply a part of an overall circuit and have a part to play in terms of the effects (or not) of (mostly) L, C or R.

No-one with an open mind would discount that changes often can be heard when switching things about but often, the cause is attributed solely to a cable, in terms of "what the cable sounds like" when actually, it has no sound. What may result in one system may not be repeatable in another because the circuit itself is different and perhaps general thinking needs to be less closed minded an open to what effect changes made have had on the circuit being connected, not just one individual part thereof. It's a good way of thinking about "synergy", the right things that come together to make a system work well.

[Reffc]

Ha. I wondered when somebody would pick up on that. Mylar (Melinex) film has to be vapour deposit coated with Aluminium (normally) before it can act as an RFi shield.

To be fair Geoff, I referred to Mylar Foil (as in metalised Mylar) so my comments stand ;)

[Stryder5]

To be fair Geoff, I referred to Mylar Foil (as in metalised Mylar) so my comments stand ;)

A statement that says one thing and means another, Mylar (made by DuPont) foil is not a product. Metallised Mylar is. The product is not a foil, it's a polyester film.

By very definition a foil consists of very thin metal, Mylar cannot be a foil.

[anthonyTD]

Well, my own findings and experiments with cable construction over the years [and I have tried' and made many] mostly point to the connectors having the biggest affect between like for like cable types.
A...

[Macca]

My view is that cables can change the sound, usually subtly, and I agree that the equipment they connect has an effect on this. One size will not fit all, and this is why some rave about a certain interconnect and others, having tried it in their system, dismiss it as 'poor'. I don't think this is any scientific mystery, I just think that we are more sensitive to small differences in LCR than ''science' claims we are. It isn't like there are Universities conducting ongoing research into this as no-one outside of audioland gives a monkey's. So it isn't wise to place too much faith in textbook explanations.

There is no methodology to working out what cable is best or a given set-up except for suck it and see, and that is my advice to the o/p.

It is annoying because there is no way of knowing before hand if a cable change will merit an improvement or not. And no-one has the time or money to try every cable to find the best for their particular application so you could be using sub-optimal cables and never know. But if it sounds right then why tinker further? There are other much more effective ways to improve the sound of your system, do them first.

[Infinitely Baffled]

ideally there should be as little plug socket connection as possible, as they are yet another form of switch
involving audio signals passing from one surface to another.

I didn't know this!

So, then it is in principle better to use banana plugs - with their bowed-sprung pins - for loudspeaker connections than to seek out expensive plugs which claim to enable a greater pin contact area within the socket?
IB

[Stryder5]

I didn't know this!

So, then it is in principle better to use banana plugs - with their bowed-sprung pins - for loudspeaker connections than to seek out expensive plugs which claim to enable a greater pin contact area within the socket?
IB

There are many different types of banana plugs, I use BFA plugs, as they look to have a better contact area.

Only my opinion tho.

[struth]

Good contact area is best with plugs imv. Cannot see a reason for otherwise

[Reffc]

A statement that says one thing and means another, Mylar (made by DuPont) foil is not a product. Metallised Mylar is. The product is not a foil, it's a polyester film.

By very definition a foil consists of very thin metal, Mylar cannot be a foil.

Pedantry. "Mylar Foil" has for some time been a common usage term (irrespective of technical accuracy) to describe metalised Mylar (polyester) films. You and everyone reading this knew exactly what was being referred to so lets leave it at that :)



Well, my own findings and experiments with cable construction over the years [and I have tried' and made many] mostly point to the connectors having the biggest affect between like for like cable types.
A...

I agree Anthony that connectors can indeed make a difference, as can the cable geometry, particularly with respect to things like shielding and cable capacitance when it comes to passing a signal from a MM cartridge to a phono stage for example. Any changes in sound will obviously be very kit (circuit) dependant :)

[Stryder5]

Pedantry. "Mylar Foil" has for some time been a common usage term (irrespective of technical accuracy) to describe metalised Mylar (polyester) films. You and everyone reading this knew exactly what was being referred to so lets leave it at that :)




I agree Anthony that connectors can indeed make a difference, as can the cable geometry, particularly with respect to things like shielding and cable capacitance when it comes to passing a signal from a MM cartridge to a phono stage for example. Any changes in sound will obviously be very kit (circuit) dependant :)

You yourself made the notional differentiation between film and foil everyone knows you are wriggling and pedantic.

Saying one thing and meaning another on the basis of interpretation " that everyone knows what you are talking about" is just plain wrong.

Statements based on the assumption that everyone knows what you mean, not what you say is a little ludicrous.

Your "statements stands", really means "your statement stands for correction.".

I have the greatest admiration for people who can design and make quality "hi fi" components for us to better appreciate our music, this does not mean they are the font of all knowledge and correct on all things.

Now that it's known what is correct, I'll leave it at that.

[Lawrence001]

Yes, but it isn't an insulator then. Conductive plastics are sometimes used in mic cables for screening, but they aren't being used as insulators in that application and require an additional insulating layer.
My original comment stands - the insulation on interconnects doesn't screen them from RFI.



They look a bit thin (and short) for speaker cables, but they would work.

The image is a stock picture the cables I bought are 8m long so not short but I take your point about the gauge. Are there any advantages to thinner speaker cable (low capacitance?). They arrived today so I'll make a start when I have time. I'm going to take the first 3m with the mini coax ends and fit banana cables to try my HE500 headphones direct from an amp, that leaves me 5m to play with for cables with the first one. I'll try with the speakers before I cut into 1m length so I know how they sound as speaker cable.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Light Dependant Resistor]

I didn't know this!

So, then it is in principle better to use banana plugs - with their bowed-sprung pins - for loudspeaker connections than to seek out expensive plugs which claim to enable a greater pin contact area within the socket?
IB

As it is awkward to solder or weld every connection, compromises on how connections are made. Yes banana plugs and sockets have large surface and reasonable tightness
so serve loudspeaker connection purpose fairly well.

[walpurgis]

There is also a lot of 'hoo-ha' about plug materials. The conductor cross section is what matters. You could have robust plugs made of any metal of choice really. if the conductivity is ample, you should not be able to hear any difference between, say pure silver or lead for instance (or any other metals). Not that I'm suggesting lead would make good plugs.

[Lawrence001]

I didn't know this!

So, then it is in principle better to use banana plugs - with their bowed-sprung pins - for loudspeaker connections than to seek out expensive plugs which claim to enable a greater pin contact area within the socket?
IB

I read LDR's post as meaning we should minimise the number of points at which connectors meet, not the surface area at any given point, which is a very different statement, was I wrong?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Soldering connections vs using RCA connectors that involve one surface touching each other, will always make a better join. So Yes minimising
connectors where you can do that- is far preferable. If though you have to use connectors making their contact as firm as possible is preferable.

Where larger currents are involved found on outputs of amplifiers and speaker connections - and it is awkward to solder, then improving surface area
like using a banana plug and socket is a far better choice, vs say a DIN loudspeaker connector.

[farflungstar]

I've always believed less connectors equals less to worry about. Until the isoldas wth their banana plugs I'd always used bare wire connections from amp to speakers. In truth I'd prefer the isoldas to be bare ended but they sound great so I'm leaving well alone.

Likewise with interconnects, my Slagle Autoformer Volume control has hard wired interconnects running to normal RCA's. But will have to change when my new volume control finally arrives. I've a couple of Cardas Golden Presence interconnects waiting to go in - and all those connectors gives me the willies.

Adey

Sent from my Aquaris E4.5 using Tapatalk

[Lawrence001]

Not relevant to the title but I just wanted to update the results of the cable mod to use the HE500s with banana plugs into a normal (speaker driving) amp. It's awesome, and I'm just using a cheap T amp. The headphones have really come to life not just in the bass but in treble and overall dynamics, balance and "fullness". This is compared to both a Meier Corda and an Audio Gd NFB-11. (Note this can't be done with a jack to banana adaptor as I have read connecting the T amp to a common ground will blow it.)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Arkless Electronics]

The image is a stock picture the cables I bought are 8m long so not short but I take your point about the gauge. Are there any advantages to thinner speaker cable (low capacitance?). They arrived today so I'll make a start when I have time. I'm going to take the first 3m with the mini coax ends and fit banana cables to try my HE500 headphones direct from an amp, that leaves me 5m to play with for cables with the first one. I'll try with the speakers before I cut into 1m length so I know how they sound as speaker cable.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No. Speaker wire should be really good 'n thick and kept as short as practical. That is all there is to speaker cable...

[alphaGT]

I see Jez got it wrong again :rolleyes:. It's not the cables that should be covered in butter. After extensive testing it been proved beyond doubt that it's the amplifier that should be heavily buttered!!

:eek:

I prefer margarine myself.....


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[anthonyTD]

Dripping is also very good for valve amps, so I have heard!!!:D
I prefer margarine myself.....


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[anthonyTD]

Hence my reason for stating between "like for like cable types" meaning' like for like cable construction, and configuration types!!! Diffrent plug types fitted to the same cable have almost always made the biggest diffrence in my experiments, than just changing the cable construction etc.
Hope thats clearer.:)
Pedantry. "Mylar Foil" has for some time been a common usage term (irrespective of technical accuracy) to describe metalised Mylar (polyester) films. You and everyone reading this knew exactly what was being referred to so lets leave it at that :)




I agree Anthony that connectors can indeed make a difference, as can the cable geometry, particularly with respect to things like shielding and cable capacitance when it comes to passing a signal from a MM cartridge to a phono stage for example. Any changes in sound will obviously be very kit (circuit) dependant :)

[Reffc]

Hence my reason for stating between "like for like cable types" meaning' like for like cable construction, and configuration types!!! Diffrent plug types fitted to the same cable have almost always made the biggest diffrence in my experiments, than just changing the cable construction etc.
Hope thats clearer.:)

:)