View Full Version : Lockwood Majors
bonneville
16-12-2009, 18:53
Royal Hi-Fi are about to list 3 pairs of Lockwood major's on ebay all fitted with Tannoy monitor golds .:stalks:
Vinnie
Dave Hewitt
16-12-2009, 19:05
Vinnie,I'm a bit skint at the mo so will leave it up to you to get me a pair.
Yours in anticipation Dave.
LOL... Vinnie, can you link to where you obtained this information? :)
Incidentally, Lockwood Majors normally came fitted with Monitor Reds... Been there, done that though, and Golds are definitely more 'practical' for use with modern amps.
Hey, it'd love it if some of you guys 'joined the fold', as it were! :cool:
Marco.
Ian Walker
16-12-2009, 19:47
Royal Hi-Fi are about to list 3 pairs of Lockwood major's on ebay all fitted with Tannoy monitor golds .:stalks:
Vinnie
Ah forget them red and gold old duffers Vinnie the K series drivers are where its at mate.......runs for cover..........:eek:
Hehehehehe..... :eyebrows:
Marco.
bonneville
16-12-2009, 20:12
Nah ! Monitor golds WITHOUT tarted up xovers are the in thing ::ner:
I don't know how to link thingies :( see the single empty cabinet add.
Running for cover as I type,back to THE ROOM for me next time I visit Marco Towers.:(
S'ok, dude, Ian's sent it to me:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Lockwood-Major-cabinet-for-Tannoy-Red-15-inch-dual-conc_W0QQitemZ160387816974QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Au dioVideoElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_HiFiSpeakers?has h=item2557dbde0e
http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/7136/lockwoodmajor.jpg (http://img515.imageshack.us/i/lockwoodmajor.jpg/)
Man, that looks as rough as a baboon's botty... It's ok I suppose if you dig mono (once there's a drive unit inside, that is!) :lol:
AS SOON AS I FIND TIME, I WILL BE LISTING, ON EBAY, 3 PAIRS OF LOCKWOOD MAJORS COMPLETE WITH 15 INCH GOLD DUAL CONCENTRICS . GREAT CONDITION CABINETS AND STUNNING 15 INCH GOLD DUAL CONCENTRICS!!!!!!!!
It'll be interesting to see those when they go up for sale. I'll keep an eye out for that...
Mine (just for comparison purposes):
http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/4867/lockwoodmajors025.jpg (http://img685.imageshack.us/i/lockwoodmajors025.jpg/)
Marco.
Ian Walker
16-12-2009, 20:40
Mine (just for comparison purposes):
Hell you could keep rabbits in them:lol:
It's what's behind that wee door in the middle you should be worried about....... http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/1459/evilgrin0036.gif (http://img51.imageshack.us/i/evilgrin0036.gif/) http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/1459/evilgrin0036.gif (http://img51.imageshack.us/i/evilgrin0036.gif/)
Marco.
bonneville
16-12-2009, 20:49
Vinnie,I'm a bit skint at the mo so will leave it up to you to get me a pair.
Yours in anticipation Dave.
Gor'd help the rest of us if you are skint:lol::lol:
Vinnie
Yeah, Dave, there's probably enough loose change in your back pocket, mate! :lol:
Marco.
The Vinyl Adventure
16-12-2009, 21:14
Mine (just for comparison purposes):
Hell you could keep rabbits in them:lol:
he does... thats how they make the sounds .... arnt rabbits clever!?!?
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww282/hamish_gill/rabbitsfart.jpg
http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/6931/10156.gif (http://img519.imageshack.us/i/10156.gif/) http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/7396/hahaha024.gif (http://img3.imageshack.us/i/hahaha024.gif/) http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/7396/hahaha024.gif (http://img3.imageshack.us/i/hahaha024.gif/)
Marco.
The Vinyl Adventure
16-12-2009, 21:33
the secrets out now matey, theres no hiding it any more, im sorry i had to do that i know you told me in confidence...
its just a shame my missis in alergic to the little buggers ... oh well iljust have to keep my pmc's
aquapiranha
16-12-2009, 22:34
Oooohhhh nice! Why am I always bloody skint!
Ian, I must come over and return these CD's for you (I have got another album and done you a copy)
Steve
he does... thats how they make the sounds .... arnt rabbits clever!?!?
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww282/hamish_gill/rabbitsfart.jpg
Not the funniest thing ever but surely a close runner for the title. I laughed myself sick:lol:
chris@panteg
17-12-2009, 12:11
LOL
and there was me thinking ' you had a nice collection of whip's and thigh boots in there :sofa:
chris@panteg
17-12-2009, 12:12
Lockwoods look awesome though Marco:youtheman:
bonneville
06-01-2010, 15:26
First pair now on ebay!;);)
anthonyTD
06-01-2010, 16:09
he does... thats how they make the sounds .... arnt rabbits clever!?!?
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww282/hamish_gill/rabbitsfart.jpg
:lol::lol::lol::lolsign:
First pair now on ebay!;);)
How would you say they compare with the DMT 15's you have on auction?
I rather like the DMT stylee, just about stylish enough for the home and obviously great for the studios...
bonneville
06-01-2010, 17:09
Hi
I have no connection to the seller,the nearest I have come to this model was at Marco's but at the time they contained Tannoy silvers not golds so I can't comment,except to say I really enjoyed my visit .
Vinnie
Hi Vinnie,
They were Reds, mate, not Silvers, and I seem to remember that you loved them at the time... Comments from your write-up after your visit such as "I was in awe of Marco's system", seem to ring a bell ;)
Perhaps that was when the drugs kicked in though and the funny men in white coats came to take you away, I dunno!! :lol: ;)
How much is the guy selling these things for - can we have a link?
Marco.
There on Flea bay here,
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160392661066&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
Good grief, they look like a bag of tat. Wouldn't it be easier just to get a pair of custom cabs made and stick some drivers in them, or am I missing something?:confused:
If they don't go for much more than a grand and a half, then £500 on cab restoration (even if it's taking the paint off and polishing the formica underneath (?) then it'll be worth it.
By the way Marco and co, are the cab inners bare, or is there some damping wool or similar inside?
Bare drivers go for about a grand, don't they, so surely a cabinet maker could do you a pair of superb cabs for a grand (probably a whole lot less).
Cheers
Marco, what made you change to Golds from Reds? From the reading I've done (and prices) aren't Reds more desirable, although the Silvers are the most desirable? Not that I'm likely to be buying any, any time soon!
The Grand Wazoo
07-01-2010, 19:37
I think you've noticed the difference between people who buy by reputation & those who buy on actual performance in their system Alex
Indeed Chris, although I also wondered if there was a difference in condition, or even if the reds were 12" vs 15" Golds - sure Marco will confirm, I was just curious really.
There's golds and there's GOLDS apparently. I've read that the very late Yorks, Lancasters etc. had HPD drivers inside.
bonneville
07-01-2010, 20:06
Hi Marco
I think you misunderstood my post I said I cant comment on LM with golds in because I have never heard them ,yours with the reds which I thought were silvers were in my opinion the biz :ner:
Vinnie
There's golds and there's GOLDS apparently. I've read that the very late Yorks, Lancasters etc. had HPD drivers inside.
I know someone who had lockwoods in his studio, the original pair with lsu drivers where fine but the second set he bought with hpd drivers literally welded the tweeters to the cones in a total meltdown:eek:
bonneville
07-01-2010, 20:47
They look like LSU golds to me.
Vinnie
Hi Alex,
Sorry for getting so late to this one!
Marco, what made you change to Golds from Reds? From the reading I've done (and prices) aren't Reds more desirable, although the Silvers are the most desirable? Not that I'm likely to be buying any, any time soon!
In a nutshell, the Reds were 15 Ohms and as such they have a rather different presentation from 8 Ohms speakers. 15 Ohms speakers are voiced in a way which projects the midrange above all else, and thus they can sound somewhat bass-light with certain material, making the presentation rather anaemic and lacking in body - yes even with 15" drivers in massive cabinets!!
However the midrange on the Reds is literally to die for, with an openness and complete lack of coloration that beggar belief. If I lived on a musical diet of female or male vocalists, small-scale jazz, choral or light classical, they would be ideal.
But my tastes in music are much more varied than that, and the Monitor Golds were simply better balanced overall and had tremendous weight and authority in the bass which the reds lacked, together with about 98% of the ability of the Reds in the midrange, and with an almost complete lack of horn coloration. The top end on both was about the same, very 'airy' detailed and extended.
Yes, Blacks, Silvers and Reds are 'more desirable' from a collectors point of view, as they're older and rarer. However, they really need a vintage valve amp to go with them, and even then, I doubt they'd be to my taste, sonically, for the same reason as I rejected the Reds. The bottom line is that I buy speakers first and foremost for their sonic (and musical) performance, not for their rarity or collectability - I'm a hi-fi enthusiast/music lover not an antiques dealer! ;)
The Monitor Golds in Lockwood cabinets (I realise how good mine look now compared to those monstrosities on Fleabay!), fitted with modern high-quality crossovers were for me the best solution - they sound utterly fantastic and I love them to bits. I honestly don't see me changing speakers for years - if ever! To replicate or better the performance of the Lockwoods I'd have to spend in excess of £15k on some modern 'high-end' speakers, and even then many wouldn't have the same addictive balance of virtues, which is not bad for a £3.5k investment. Yes, SPPV rules! :)
Dave,
By the way Marco and co, are the cab inners bare, or is there some damping wool or similar inside?
They're stuffed with wool inside. Internally, mine look identical to those pictured on the Ebay ad, although the condition is far better! The Lockwood cabinets are extremely well braced, too, heavy, and really seem to make the Monitor Gold drivers sing... Next time someone's round with a camera, I'll pop the back off them and show the insides with a close-up shot of the crossovers :cool:
Marco.
:eek: :stalks: :eyebrows: :cool:
Alex, something to bear in mind re 8R vs 15R is the amp you use with them. With solidstate it won't really matter other than the 15R Reds will see fewer watts from the amp but unless the amp VERY low powered it won't matter.
With a valve amp to be totally sure you are listening to the drive unit differences not a slight ior not so slight amplifier / speaker mis-match you should audition with a valve amps with 8 and 15/16 ohm output transformer taps. I'm not saying that what Marco found is due to this but it is an extra aspect to think about as it will have an effect on the sound. Might be a small effect or a moderate one, it's unlikely to be any more than that - a lot depends on the operating points chosen by the designer for the particular amp.
Clive
Hi Clive,
I completely concur with your observations. However, the main difference lies in the actual design and thus voicing of the drive units themselves, whether they are 15R or 8R. As you've probably heard yourself, perhaps having done comparisons at some point, 15R loudspeakers inherently present music in a rather different way to their 8R counterparts, as they are much more midrange prominent to suit a different type of music in the days either before rock and pop, or when rock and pop music had only recently appeared on the scene.
Therefore, although, pairing together 8 and 15/16 ohms output transformer taps on valve amps with 15 ohms speakers is important (and the sonic effect of doing, or not doing so, significant) this will not negate the effect of how 15R drive units are intrinsically designed to function.
When you listen to a pair of Lockwood Majors with 15" Monitor Reds, you are initially overwhelmed by their, quite frankly, astonishing clarity and almost complete absence of coloration in the midrange (as this is essentially where most of the music 'lives'), which gives the most starkly vivid, wide-open window onto recordings I've arguably heard from any loudspeaker in the 28 years I've been invloved with high-end audio, making it blatantly obvious why they were used in some major (and also famous) recording studios in the 50s and 60s for monitoring purposes.
*BUT*, and it's a big BUT, if you listen to any type of music where there's a strong rhythmic beat, and the bass line underpins this, 'carrying' it to the listener, in order to successfully convey the musical message in the recording (represented in about 80% of what I listen to), the Reds fall flat on their arse, as they're rather PRAT-free (and tonally bass-light and lacking in' body' with it), i.e. they fail at effectively communicating the pace rhythm and timing in rock and pop music which is essential for it to be 'understood' and appreciated.
This explains exactly why I initially bought Monitor Reds, but once having identified their 'sonic signature', and thus how they portrayed music, I decided to switch to the Golds using the same (excellent) Lockwood cabinets. These gave me 98% of the ability of the Monitor Reds in the midrange, but with it, all the PRAT and authority in the bass one could ask for. For me, it gave the perfect balance of virtues, and together with the crossover upgrades, a very musically satisfying pair of loudspeakers on almost every level.
I trust that this explains things thoroughly for everyone :cool:
Marco.
Hi Marco,
I've not directly compared 8R and 15R drive units. BTW, my OBs whilst being around 15R use series connected 8R units.
So it seems the Tannoy's are voiced differently Red to Gold. I need to research a little on how the 15R voice coil changes the voicing vs 8R, assuming both are driven optimally. For sure I can imagine there will be a sonic change. If the number of turns on the voice coil delivers such changes I wonder what 4R would sound like (if they made 4R Tannoy drivers).
Clive
So it seems the Tannoy's are voiced differently Red to Gold.
It would appear so, as I've lived with both types of drive units in the same cabinets, using the same system, long enough to 'nail' the actual differences.
I need to research a little on how the 15R voice coil changes the voicing vs 8R, assuming both are driven optimally. For sure I can imagine there will be a sonic change. If the number of turns on the voice coil delivers such changes I wonder what 4R would sound like (if they made 4R Tannoy drivers).
Your observations on that would indeed be most interesting. I'm unaware though if Tannoy produced 4R drivers. However, if you're genuinely curious, a call or email to Roger at Lockwood would I'm sure provide the answer :)
Marco.
The measured performance of the older drivers compared to the newer ones is very difference IIRC, the later ones trading a few db sensitivity for lower impedance and slightly greater bass extension. I appreciate this is only part of the story, but Tannoy did try to develop these drivers as available power increased and cabinets started to shrink slightly (although they weren't totally successful with the mid seventies HPD models as standard IMO). I think that a heck of a lot of work was done on the drivers and crossovers in the early eighties and I believe this works backwards to vintage models too..
The HiFi World page on vintage Tannoys is very interesting, though I suspect somewhat controversial to some! Posted entirely "without prejudice" ;)
http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/hfw/oldeworldehtml/tannoyspeakers.html
It's 12 years out of date now, that article and barely scratches the surface ;)
The HiFi World page on vintage Tannoys is very interesting, though I suspect somewhat controversial to some! Posted entirely "without prejudice"
http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/hfw/oldeworldehtml/tannoyspeakers.html
I've read that article many times before, Alex. It's largely full of half-truths and misconceptions, lightly dusted with the odd fact: typical mantra from journalists who sometimes form definitive opinions about things on the scantest of evidence ;)
I'm surprised really, as I usually find Haden Boardman's writings rather more reflecting that of reality. Some of the article is informative and quite good, though.
Marco.
I know - where's the "wooden spoon" icon when you need it? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Not using Tannoy speakers myself, I haven’t been following this thread too closely. However Marco has said that he has replaced the 15Ω Reds with 8Ω Gold drive units. Were the crossover networks modified following this change since, of course, the two are quite different?
Tannoy Red (15” 15Ω):
http://www.hilberink.nl/codehans/tannoy112.htm
Tannoy Gold (15”, 8Ω):
http://www.hilberink.nl/codehans/tannoy37.htm.
Regards
Hi Barry,
Monitor Reds and Golds use different crossovers. The crossovers I had done for the Golds were designed from a recommended improved circuit, shown here:
http://www.guitars-of-love.com/tannoy15goldcrossovermods.htm
I then selected my own make of components and used Clarity Cap MR capacitors and Duelund resistors throughout, all wired together internally with high quality VDH cable. I've still to upgrade the inductors to Mundorf Air-core Foil Coils, which I've earmarked to do this year. This will raise performance again significantly to another level :)
Marco.
Hi Barry,
Monitor Reds and Golds use different crossovers. The crossovers I had done for the Golds were designed from a recommended improved circuit, shown here:
http://www.guitars-of-love.com/tannoy15goldcrossovermods.htm
I then selected my own make of components and used Clarity Cap MR capacitors and Duelund resistors throughout, all wired together internally with high quality VDH cable. I've still to upgrade the inductors to Mundorf Air-core Foil Coils, which I've earmarked to do this year. This will raise performance again significantly to yet another level :)
Marco.
Ah-ha,
That's the same circuit as Tannoy drg. B 29898, appropriate for the Golds:
http://www.hilberink.nl/codehans/tannoy37.htm.
Regards
Those two rotary switches have a heck of a lot to answer for I understand, once the crossover gets over a few years old. Tannoy's answer was to go over to the screw-in adjustments which get over this apparently.
Indeed, Dave. The revised crossover circuit (details of which I've posted), outlining the hard-wiring of treble lift adjustment in the 'Flat' position, and thus doing away with those rotary switches in the process, is one of the reasons why performance with the Monitor Golds is so significantly improved.
I've got to be honest and say that I've no idea how people can live with the original Gold crossovers, as when I had them installed they made the sound 'warm & cuddly' to the point where bass was thick and 'ploddy', the midrange was 'cuppy' and indistinct, and the top end as soft as a marshmallow - the overall effect was, errm, rather 'rounded-off'... Perhaps those I had were faulty in some way?
It was a good job I could hear the inherent sonic talents of the drive units lurking somewhere underneath the quagmire of euphonic coloration, and had an idea of how to cure it! Like I've said before, people who've written-off these 40+ year old speakers as being coloured to hell, and thus 'obsolete', simply won't have heard them perform to their full capabilities. It's not the drive units themselves that are coloured sounding (far from it!) The coloration comes from the 'bottleneck' effect of the original crossovers and the sonic signature imposed by some of the older, original, cabinets.
Perhaps some people like that type of sound, though? Each to his or her own, I guess. It's certainly not for me. The crossover modifications literally transformed how these vintage drive units perform, revealing their true talents, and with it a uniquely addictive way of music-making which, due to their incredible insight, captures the emotive element of performances like no other loudspeakers I've heard to date :)
Marco.
bonneville
15-01-2010, 12:54
That's me told then ! better get a skip ordered:lolsign:
Vinnie
Vinnie,
Haha, didn't you find them inside one originally? :lol:
I actually liked yours (I'm sure you'll remember me saying this at the time), and in fact hearing yours was directly responsible for me asking Chris (from Big Ears Audio) to find some Monitor Golds :)
Who knows, maybe yours were slightly modified in some way, or perhaps the crossovers in your Golds were better than the ones I had? We'll never know if anything has been changed though, as your completely sealed cabinets would have to be broken open first to find out! :eyebrows: ;)
Marco.
bonneville
15-01-2010, 13:12
Hi Marco
I have not had the bottle to have a go at opening them up yet.opened a few of these though:cool::cool::cool:
Vinnie
Lol - nah, I'd leave them as they are Vinnie.
Yours do sound good with the original crossovers (whereas mine didn't), and you obviously enjoy them, so I'm not sure it's worth the effort unless you have a pot of cash lying around to fund the building of new cabinets with 'fancy' crossovers.
Otherwise, just leave 'em, as is, and enjoy the music :)
Marco.
bonneville
15-01-2010, 13:47
Hi Marco
I've not got a pot to p--s in :(.could sell my Quad 2's to fund new cabs. etc.maybe, sometime.
Vinnie.
Well I wouldn't worry about it then, Vinnie. Even as they are, you've got a pair of speakers that would disgrace a lot of what's made nowadays at several times the price you paid for those Golds! ;)
Marco.
Dave Hewitt
15-01-2010, 14:52
Vinnie
I'll get me violin.
Dave.
Here you are, Elvis:
:violin:
:lol:
Marco.
bonneville
15-01-2010, 16:32
Back on line then Dave but 2 into 5.1 still does'nt go:lolsign:
Vinnie
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