Vintage or modern TT?

[Floyddroid]

This may well be the first analogue question of the year? It may well or very likely been asked before? but what just is the consensus of the preference between vintage turntables and modern designs. Japanese, US or Uk? What's your thoughts?

[Light Dependant Resistor]

My Linn LP12 Valhalla, Basik Plus shows no sign of stopping, so encouraging the same fortune for others, my vote is for vintage.

[British high fidelity]

And my custom Thorens TD125 mkII is going NO WHERE! Ever! lol

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[British high fidelity]

If it aint broke then dont fix it, and the vintage are not know where near broken

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[karma67]

vintage japanese direct direct drive gets my vote.

[Audio Al]

My opinion is as follows

Back in the day company's built to a standard and were proud of this.

Modern mass production unit are designed by accountants

SOME moder makers do still produce quality but this is normally at high cost due to limited production

I would hunt out something vintage / classic

This does depend on your all in TT budget :)

[Natara]

I love my LP12 but it can be frustrating that everytime I want to do anything to it it has to go to the shop, I know vintage decks can be quite seductive but if you just want a plug and play no nonsense TT I would go new. A new Rega Planar 3 looks like a really good deck just over 600 pound with cart fitted guaranteed and warranteed, you can still upgrade with a few mods as you go along a seperate psu etc. Also the Rega Fono MM 2 is a great phono stage for the money I used on for a year or so and it never let me down. Good luck in the search you are in for a real treat which ever way you decide to go.

[hifi_dave]

Depends on the model. A Garrard 301 or 401, Thorens TD 124 or Goldring G99 are excellent by any standard and built to last but numerous 'vintage' turntables are a waste of space and will require a fair bit of fettling to keep going.

If you can't pay out for a top of the range 'vintage, then as Tara says above, a Rega is a great choice for high quality, trouble free listening.

[shane]

This needs rescuing. Set it up with a decent arm, it'll just sit there and do the biz for years without needing to fiddle with it. Of course, I'm a bit biased where these things are concerned...

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/351945209350

[topoxforddoc]

I would have no problem with buying a vintage traditional TT, like a Thorens 124, Garrard 301/401 etc; these are essentially mechanical beasts, with lots of support. Vintage japanese high end TTs are fabulous, but spares are almost unobtanium. If you have deep pockets, or a lot of electronics nouse, then buying a high end Jap DD TT needing work (just like Beobloke with his recent Sony purchase) could be a gamble, as you might end up with an expensive paperweight.

[Floyddroid]

Interesting views. What then apart from the obvious ie Pioneer PL71 and a 1210 would the vintage devotees consider to be Linn or modern beaters?

[karma67]

ive always fancied the kenwood kd-990 ,lovely looking tt

[walpurgis]

This naturally:

http://i67.tinypic.com/xkqepy.jpg

[karma67]

oh have you got one? and a 774 arm too,you've never mentioned it before.:D
joking aside,its a very good tt.

[Bigman80]

I've owned modern and vintage.

The modern was an Inspire Quest TT which was fantastic. Seriously good. I've had a Sony PS-x70 which again was out of this world but it had a fault and I couldn't find anyone who could fix it at the time.

They were my two best tables until I listened to Walpurgis.

Listen to Walpurgis. I did and the Toshiba/mission combo is hard to beat.

If you don't fancy a Toshy or can't get one, I'd still go vintage. More for your money and the technology of reproducing music in analogue form hasn't changed since the golden days of Turntables so why not buy something that was made during the same era when Turntables were king.

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[struth]

Quite like my jbe... nice sounding deck and looks great too..

[Bigman80]

Quite like my jbe... nice sounding deck and looks great too..
Is it the one with a slate plinth?

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[RobbieGong]

I'd have this vintage JVC TT71 QL70 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/JVC-TT71-QL70-DIRECT-DRIVE-TURNTABLE-SYSTEM-SME-3009-Boxed-MINT-/322375924882?&_trksid=p2056016.l4276

£695 is not a lot for a for a top deck in mint condition like this, all things considered - very nice.

[struth]

Is it the one with a slate plinth?

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Thats the one. Lovely bit of engineering it is too. DD with a pod platter. Dont come up often, lthough one sold on ebay minus an arm for £300 recently.. they take any sme fit arm i think. Mine has machine threads in slate for the arm making it very tidy.

[petrat]

Neither vintage or modern, I've always liked the Nottingham Analogue range. Great-sounding, simple and well-engineered, there's not a lot to go wrong with a used example.

[Bigman80]

I'd have this vintage JVC TT71 QL70 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/JVC-TT71-QL70-DIRECT-DRIVE-TURNTABLE-SYSTEM-SME-3009-Boxed-MINT-/322375924882?&_trksid=p2056016.l4276

£695 is not a lot for a for a top deck in mint condition like this, all things considered - very nice.
Have to say, I was tempted by this. Only thing the Toshy hasn't got is Quartz lock. A slate plinth would improve it I think.

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[Bigman80]

Thats the one. Lovely bit of engineering it is too. DD with a pod platter. Dont come up often, lthough one sold on ebay minus an arm for £300 recently.. they take any sme fit arm i think. Mine has machine threads in slate for the arm making it very tidy.
Very nice Grant. I think they are very smart.

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[struth]

Quartz lock isnt reall that important imv. Just 1 more thing to go wrong. DDs are pretty stable

[Bigman80]

Quartz lock isnt reall that important imv. Just 1 more thing to go wrong. DDs are pretty stable
I generally agree, just would be an added bonus IMO. My Toshy is going nowhere.

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[Floyddroid]

I must admit if I saw a Micro Seiki dd1000 at a reasonable price I would be very tempted.

[walpurgis]

Only thing the Toshy hasn't got is Quartz lock. A slate plinth would improve it I think.

Quartz Lock turntables are not necessarily better. Slate 'rings', the composite base of the SR-370 is very inert and hefty enough.

[Bigman80]

Quartz Lock turntables are not necessarily better. Slate 'rings', the composite base of the SR-370 is very inert and hefty enough.
Sorry, I meant the JVC would be improved with a slate plinth.

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[karma67]

the composite base of the SR-370 is very inert and hefty enough.
tell me about it,i had to pick one up a few times yesterday!

[farflungstar]

Technics SP10 mk2 gets my vote. Beautifully engineered and deserving it's legendary status. Upgrade the electronics, put a heavy tenuto platter on it and it's up there with its bigger brother the mk3.
Adey

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[Wakefield Turntables]

Vintage without a shadow of doubt. Just how far has turntable development evolved since the 1970's????? Not much.

[Idlewithnodrive]

Vintage here all the way too.

[karma67]

Vintage without a shadow of doubt. Just how far has turntable development evolved since the 1970's????? Not much.
what are you doing with the alphason tonearm andy,is it still in service?

[Wakefield Turntables]

what are you doing with the alphason tonearm andy,is it still in service?

It's strapped to my very vintage Lenco 75, currently its running a 70's Shure M55E with snakewood body and JICO replacement stylus. It's probably going to J7 for full rewire and service at some point in 2017.

19003

[karma67]

cool,just wondered that's all,i need to get my lifter sorted or replaced at some point. :)

[Jimbo]

I will soon be having a vintage vs modern bake off in the next few weeks with a belter vs an idler. Both are superb turntables in their own right but let's see which one has the real wow factor. The decision will not be just mine as I will be evaluating and listening with an AOS friend.:)

[ianlenco]

Have to say, I was tempted by this. Only thing the Toshy hasn't got is Quartz lock. A slate plinth would improve it I think.

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Not so sure about that. I recently replinthed a JVC TT-71 and tried various materials including slate but ended up using MU25 which is a sort of poor man's panzerholtz - less compression but still denser than standard birch ply.

http://i.imgur.com/uNPunt8h.jpg#gWPQG

I've built quite a few Lencos using slate and think it works great with the old idlers but for some reason it didn't really work with the JVC - the combination was just too bright and a little harsh for my ears.
Vintage every time for me - you can have so much fun with them :)

[Wakefield Turntables]

Vintage every time for me - you can have so much fun with them :)

Good point, no warranty to worry about if you screw your latest £50K deck up by adding a Nigels Speed Controller. :rofl:

[Arkless Electronics]

I guess I don't really recognise any difference between vintage and modern when it comes to TT's... a platter is rotated by a motor... it's not rocket science...
My ancient Thorens TD150 in Trio/Kenwood "mock marble/plastic" plinth does me fine.
I also have a Manticore Mantra, Technics SL-150MkII, Lenco GL75 and spare Thorens TD150 which I may get round to sorting out and having a play with sometime this year.... there again I've been going to fettle the Technics and Lenco for at least 10 years now:eek: One of those round tuits needed probably:D

[Wakefield Turntables]

i guess i don't really recognise any difference between vintage and modern when it comes to tt's... A platter is rotated by a motor... It's not rocket science...
My ancient thorens td150 in trio/kenwood "mock marble/plastic" plinth does me fine.
I also have a manticore mantra, technics sl-150mkii, lenco gl75 and spare thorens td150 which i may get round to sorting out and having a play with sometime this year.... There again i've been going to fettle the technics and lenco for at least 10 years now:eek: One of those round tuits needed probably:d

do the lenco and build a speed controller (your design of course)... ;)

[British high fidelity]

Also restoring a vintage TT is a great feeling, modifying and making something better and dynamically improved from the original and the knowledge gained is priceless imho anyways

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[Wakefield Turntables]

Also restoring a vintage TT is a great feeling, modifying and making something better and dynamically improved from the original and the knowledge gained is priceless imho anyways

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+100 couldn't agree more. I love restoring a TT.

[Bigman80]

Not so sure about that. I recently replinthed a JVC TT-71 and tried various materials including slate but ended up using MU25 which is a sort of poor man's panzerholtz - less compression but still denser than standard birch ply.

http://i.imgur.com/uNPunt8h.jpg#gWPQG

I've built quite a few Lencos using slate and think it works great with the old idlers but for some reason it didn't really work with the JVC - the combination was just too bright and a little harsh for my ears.
Vintage every time for me - you can have so much fun with them :)
I bet that sounds amazing. Panzerholtz would be an amazing choice

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[Bigman80]

I must admit if I saw a Micro Seiki dd1000 at a reasonable price I would be very tempted.
Look at this on eBay http://www.ebay.de/itm/152363243310



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[Jazid]

I must admit if I saw a Micro Seiki dd1000 at a reasonable price I would be very tempted.
I did, I was, and I have not in any manner regretted moving from my 401 or Voyd - fantastic though these decks are. All IMHO &c

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[Floyddroid]

Thanks for that Jazid. Very interesting. I have just sold on My my 401 as it was housed in a massive plinth and due to a back injury found it difficult to move etc. I have been thinking about a DD1000 for a while so your views are very helpful. Many thanks.

[Jimbo]

Just trying to follow this thread Steve and wondered if you have narrowed your choice down yet. Sounds like you may be going down the Jap DD route?:)

[Floyddroid]

Oddly enough i was thinking about a VPI. I notice you use one. I had trouble sourcing a dealer in the North (This side of Manchester that is. At the moment i am using one of my vintage DD's (PL71) The ones i own are all mid price turntables and i really want to hear what a more up market one will sound like. Having heard Alan T's Pioneer PLC590 it set in a little confusion. Iv'e heard a lot about the DD1000 and certainly like the look of it and with a decent arm think it may well fit the bill.
Just trying to follow this thread Steve and wondered if you have narrowed your choice down yet. Sounds like you may be going down the Jap DD route?:)

[karma67]

how did the plc-590 compare to the pl-71 mate?

[Jimbo]

Oddly enough i was thinking about a VPI. I notice you use one. I had trouble sourcing a dealer in the North (This side of Manchester that is. At the moment i am using one of my vintage DD's (PL71) The ones i own are all mid price turntables and i really want to hear what a more up market one will sound like. Having heard Alan T's Pioneer PLC590 it set in a little confusion. Iv'e heard a lot about the DD1000 and certainly like the look of it and with a decent arm think it may well fit the bill.

As you are probably aware most of the VPI Turntables are belters but they do a DD models but they are astronomically expensive. However the VPI Prime would be my choice now although it's probably about £3500. Stunning turntable. I have the Scout which is still a very very good turntable and will probably stay with me for many years as I have not heard anything other than heavily modified Jap DD that will beat it. They are heavily engineered high mass turntables and really do deliver analog heaven. If you are ever down in the Midlands you are always welcome to pop in and have a listen.

[Jimbo]

If I had the cash I would buy one of these.

http://www.vpiindustries.com/avenger

[Floyddroid]

how did the plc-590 compare to the pl-71 mate?

Quite a hike upwards in sq. Much bigger picture and a whole different degree of engineering.

[shane]

Not so sure about that. I recently replinthed a JVC TT-71 and tried various materials including slate but ended up using MU25 which is a sort of poor man's panzerholtz - less compression but still denser than standard birch ply.

http://i.imgur.com/uNPunt8h.jpg#gWPQG

I've built quite a few Lencos using slate and think it works great with the old idlers but for some reason it didn't really work with the JVC - the combination was just too bright and a little harsh for my ears.
Vintage every time for me - you can have so much fun with them :)

Could you tell me where to get more info about MU25? I tried Googling it but nothing relevant came up!

[karma67]

here you go shane,
http://www.ltlewis.co.uk/beech.htm
ive got a big board of it here with me,30 mm thick,the quality is fair better than baltic ply

[ianlenco]

Thanks for replying Jamie. Shane, I'd give Andrew at LT Lewis a ring as he'll let you know if he has any offcuts.

[karma67]

im sure he will help,i met him a few weeks back when i got some panzerholz from him,nice helpful guy :)

[Gazjam]

Enjoyed "half restoring" my Lenco before I passed it on, sounded pretty good but still needed some work.
Happy with my current deck, cant go wrong with a Michell...British engineering built to last.

[shane]

Brilliant! Thanks!

[alphaGT]

Modern turntables these days are going back to simpler designs, but modern materials and exacting tolerances are where their improvements come from. I recently moved up to a VPI Scout, used, and am super impressed with its performance. But, it could not be any simpler, external motor, belt driven, the tone arm is balancing on a single point, completely manual operation. But it is heavy, made of layers of MDF and Steel plate, simple cone feet, super quiet and stable. It sounds better than any direct drive, simi automatic, synthetic plinth, Japanese style table I've ever had! I had one of those nice Denon top of the line jobs for many years, and loved it! But looking back, the motor noise was awful, tracking was ok, it finally bit the dust when an electronic circuit board went bad, and the tone arm could not find the edge of the record. I feel much better knowing there are no such circuits on this table to go wrong. And virtually any and every part can be replaced on this VPI. And upgraded! I can buy an improved motor, platter, with platter ring, better feet, improved arm even. An upgrade path to last a lifetime. But, I plan to live with it as is for the foreseeable future, until the rest of my system improves to a point that I feel the need. Which, may be never.

And this is not a top of the line 'table, SME and Spiral Groove and Basis and Clear Audio, and too many others to mention here, are blazing the path to improved dynamics through the use of modern materials. They are all manual operation, outboard motors, etc. but by experimenting with modern materials the limit keeps getting farther and farther away. Other than outboard speed controllers, electronics have little to do with these top of the line modern players.

However! I recently saw a catalog of modern phono preamps, and that seems to be a major area of growth in analog playback! Beyond the table, cartridges and preamps are making great strides. But that's a conversation for another thread.


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[Floyddroid]

Thanks for your input Russell. It has certainly given me something to think of.
Modern turntables these days are going back to simpler designs, but modern materials and exacting tolerances are where their improvements come from. I recently moved up to a VPI Scout, used, and am super impressed with its performance. But, it could not be any simpler, external motor, belt driven, the tone arm is balancing on a single point, completely manual operation. But it is heavy, made of layers of MDF and Steel plate, simple cone feet, super quiet and stable. It sounds better than any direct drive, simi automatic, synthetic plinth, Japanese style table I've ever had! I had one of those nice Denon top of the line jobs for many years, and loved it! But looking back, the motor noise was awful, tracking was ok, it finally bit the dust when an electronic circuit board went bad, and the tone arm could not find the edge of the record. I feel much better knowing there are no such circuits on this table to go wrong. And virtually any and every part can be replaced on this VPI. And upgraded! I can buy an improved motor, platter, with platter ring, better feet, improved arm even. An upgrade path to last a lifetime. But, I plan to live with it as is for the foreseeable future, until the rest of my system improves to a point that I feel the need. Which, may be never.

And this is not a top of the line 'table, SME and Spiral Groove and Basis and Clear Audio, and too many others to mention here, are blazing the path to improved dynamics through the use of modern materials. They are all manual operation, outboard motors, etc. but by experimenting with modern materials the limit keeps getting farther and farther away. Other than outboard speed controllers, electronics have little to do with these top of the line modern players.

However! I recently saw a catalog of modern phono preamps, and that seems to be a major area of growth in analog playback! Beyond the table, cartridges and preamps are making great strides. But that's a conversation for another thread.


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[Jimbo]

I think you would be astonished how the VPI Scout performs Steve never mind the more expensive VPI Prime.

If you do go down this route I have a friend who is a VPI dealer who has both a Scout and Prime set up for listening. Maybe a train journey from Newcastle to Brum?

[ianlenco]

And virtually any and every part can be replaced on this VPI. And upgraded! I can buy an improved motor, platter, with platter ring, better feet, improved arm even.



That's quite funny to me for I used to have a VPI Scout, great arm, silent running but after a couple of years I got a bit bored with it so started looking at the upgrades available. Gulp, the prices were horrendous and this is probably 15 years ago now. By chance I hit on forums describing how to upgrade a Lenco so bought a couple for next to nothing and started experimenting. Despite the fact that I was a complete novice the relative simplicity of the Lenco meant it wasn't long before a properly serviced and replinthed G99 with Ittok replaced the VPI and I actually made money to boot :)

I've still got a few Lencos but more recently I've been trying vintage Japanese DD and found them quite excellent. OK, maybe I've been lucky as I've had no electronic problems. My point is with DIY and vintage you can learn a lot and have great fun and if you do it right you won't be missing out on sound quality unless you have an awful lot of money to spend.

Each to his own :cool:

[Bigman80]

Enigma from Inspire is a mix of both. Very pretty to look at. I always found the guy who owns inspire very good to deal with. Good reviews too. There is a used one on eBay for £1k. No arm though.

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[Bigman80]

Look at this on eBay http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/262634196026

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[ianlenco]

Of course, if you don't fancy DIY then this is a solution but it can be done for a lot less. If you don't want to make a plinth there are very good ones available too.

[Bigman80]

Of course, if you don't fancy DIY then this is a solution but it can be done for a lot less. If you don't want to make a plinth there are very good ones available too.
What's your price estimate to take a standard lenco to that stage ? Genuinely interested as I've always liked the look of the Enigma.

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[ianlenco]

Again, it depends on how much DIY you want to do. There are templates on Lenco Heaven for doing the cut outs yourself or you can buy ready made plinths. Carl has a thread on same site under traders and his plinths are excellent, providing good support over a large area of the Lenco top plate. His Facebook page is here.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Hand-made-turntable-plinths/1408113462816890

He does a variety of finishes and price depends on what's required but start from £125 for a basic plinth.

This ebay seller also does plinths. I've seen one and the finish is excellent but if you compare the internals with Carl's you'll see the top plate is only supported by it's edges. Not so good but a brace under to support the bearing area would be a simple improvement.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LENCO-L75-78-Piano-Black-Plinth-Zarge-WITHOUT-TURNTABLE-/252697589113?hash=item3ad5f33579:g:n9YAAOSwal5YFJ~ M

He does different colours including burgundy, all around £210 delivered.

Then you'll probably want a better tonearm than the original. Trouble is most drop-ins like Linns tend to be a bit high for the recessed Lenco platter. You can see Inspire's solution on the link you did. Some people simply add another mat or even another Lenco platter with a spindle extension which can look very good.
Or you could get a PTP as seen on Carl's page and get rid of the top plate altogether! There are lots of possibilities but I feel a bit reluctant to continue plugging another forum on this one :) I can pm you some links if you want more info.

Cheers, Ian

[Jimbo]

Don't want to put a damper on things but Steve has already been down the Lenco route I think. I am sure he sold one some time back that had been modified.

[Bigman80]

Again, it depends on how much DIY you want to do. There are templates on Lenco Heaven for doing the cut outs yourself or you can buy ready made plinths. Carl has a thread on same site under traders and his plinths are excellent, providing good support over a large area of the Lenco top plate. His Facebook page is here.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Hand-made-turntable-plinths/1408113462816890

He does a variety of finishes and price depends on what's required but start from £125 for a basic plinth.

This ebay seller also does plinths. I've seen one and the finish is excellent but if you compare the internals with Carl's you'll see the top plate is only supported by it's edges. Not so good but a brace under to support the bearing area would be a simple improvement.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LENCO-L75-78-Piano-Black-Plinth-Zarge-WITHOUT-TURNTABLE-/252697589113?hash=item3ad5f33579:g:n9YAAOSwal5YFJ~ M

He does different colours including burgundy, all around £210 delivered.

Then you'll probably want a better tonearm than the original. Trouble is most drop-ins like Linns tend to be a bit high for the recessed Lenco platter. You can see Inspire's solution on the link you did. Some people simply add another mat or even another Lenco platter with a spindle extension which can look very good.
Or you could get a PTP as seen on Carl's page and get rid of the top plate altogether! There are lots of possibilities but I feel a bit reluctant to continue plugging another forum on this one :) I can pm you some links if you want more info.

Cheers, Ian
Yes I'll have the links. Thanks.

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[Floyddroid]

You are right James. I did. A rather nice man from Stamford audio bought it from me. Good as it was i wanted something that give me a more natural and live sound.
Don't want to put a damper on things but Steve has already been down the Lenco route I think. I am sure he sold one some time back that had been modified.

[Barry]

And my custom Thorens TD125 mkII is going NO WHERE! Ever! lol



Nor my EMT or Thorens TD124/II decks, incidently all idler rim-drive designs. :)

[Haselsh1]

Back in my motorcycle days, almost everyone would sing the praises of old vintage style bikes with their highly quirky temperaments. Well, from personal experience, they are a huge overrated pile of shite. Now the same may not be true of turntables but then again, it might. What you may well be inheriting are all of those worn out, knackered old temperaments that you almost certainly won't get with a nice shiney brand new one. Your choice I guess.

;)

[British high fidelity]

Lol I own a michell orbe and a rega rp8 and the thorens is far superior, but i guess it must be my old temperaments playing games with me

I have been in this hobby for 35 years and all i have to say is every now and then certain manufacturers make iconic models or come up with a technology that is just spot on

For example

Lenco, Thorens, etc
Mercedes 300sl gullwing, pioneer A400
Quad esl, panasonic plasma, seiko watches, walkman, ipod and the list goes on these products are just so well designed a built so so well that they are just naturally that Good,

And until your hear a perfectly setup vintage deck with the correct arm and cartridge, next to a brand new Modern TT then you will know what all the fuss is about

And lets see how many rega and pro jects are still out there in 50 years

IMHO anyways lol


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[Bigman80]

Lol I own a michell orbe and a rega rp8 and the thorens is far superior, but i guess it must be my old temperaments playing games with me

I have been in this hobby for 35 years and all i have to say is every now and then certain manufacturers make iconic models or come up with a technology that is just spot on

For example

Lenco, Thorens, etc
Mercedes 300sl gullwing, pioneer A400
Quad esl, panasonic plasma, seiko watches, walkman, ipod and the list goes on these products are just so well designed a built so so well that they are just naturally that Good,

And until your hear a perfectly setup vintage deck with the correct arm and cartridge, next to a brand new Modern TT then you will know what all the fuss is about

And lets see how many rega and pro jects are still out there in 50 years

IMHO anyways lol


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+1

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[Jac Hawk]

Interesting views. What then apart from the obvious ie Pioneer PL71 and a 1210 would the vintage devotees consider to be Linn or modern beaters?

The flood gates have been opened, all i can say is i'm happy with my Aiwa AP2600, a very rare beast

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb371/jachawk9000/IMAG0062.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/jachawk9000/media/IMAG0062.jpg.html)

[Martyn Miles]

Vintage or new turntable ?
My AR-XA cost me £25.
Yes, £25.

Admittedly I spent another £25 on a new belt and mat, plus some oil.
After refurbishment and adjustment, I cannot believe how good it sounds
with a Denon DL-110 cartridge.

[vinyljunky]

Vintage for me my thorens td 160 super with mission 774 tone arm is the best deck I've owned.Had it a year and nowts gone wrong with it touch wood http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170103/65486451fa621c9399a1fdf162a96edf.jpg


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[Bigman80]

Vintage for me my thorens td 160 super with mission 774 tone arm is the best deck I've owned.Had it a year and nowts gone wrong with it touch wood http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170103/65486451fa621c9399a1fdf162a96edf.jpg


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+1 for the tonearm.

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[Jimbo]

You are right James. I did. A rather nice man from Stamford audio bought it from me. Good as it was i wanted something that give me a more natural and live sound.

If you want a natural and live sound then a VPI with a 2M black on the end does exactly that!:)

[Yomanze]

My Pioneer PL-71 was £300 and was just plonked on a stand and has been faultless since. Yes it probably needs a recap to squeeze a few % more performance, but vintage can be as fit and forget as the modern stuff and the PL-71 takes some beating - certainly wipes out new stuff under a grand.

[AlfaGTV]

Vintage or modern? Whats "modern" in this context, is my Orbe SE modern?
And are we talking about the best TT for under £1.000? or under £500? There's no given answer for this, depends on what you like, what your wallet can take and what habitat the player is destined for... :)

I'd still like to try an olde Luxman PD-300/PD-350 but they are rare. Besides, the vacuum needs to be perfect for full function.
And the similar Micro Seikis are of course equally desireable.

There's a PD-350 for sale in Swe at the moment for about £2.500 but that would get me a few years old Clearaudio Master Solution with a SME309 or perhaps a Michell Orbe SE with a Technoarm A?
Which one will be best? Impossible to answer, they will all sound spectacular in their optimal configuration, but different!
Or why not a Linn Sondek LP-12 with Cirkus, Lingo 1 and an Ittok LV II/III which most definently will sound quite different to the other ones.

I believe that in the loftier price brackets you wont go wrong either vintage or modern. Within more reasonable pricebrackets, say up to £1.000 i'd go modern every day!
Clearaudio Concept, Project RPM-9/10, Thorens TD-309 etc.

[GJO]

Being vintage my self,I have run many old decks over the years from GL 75's,401's,various Technics and Sony DD's and some 20 years back settled on a Voyd.I ran this for over 10 years then had the itch for a change.I had listened to the VPI decks and by chance an SSM came along which was new and 60% of then current retail,so snapped it up.It was a simple job to set up apart from the JMW arm,I could never get the VTF correct as there was then no fine adjustment,this was corrected in later arms,had to resort to bluetack to get the correct settings.

The biggest problem with the VPI was my wife hated the looks and nagged me for years to get something else,the final straw came when I dropped the outer clamp on my foot,ouch,couldn't work for a week,luckily I didn't break any thing.So there started the hunt for a different deck.I had heard a Basis at a couple of dealers and was very impressed,but the cost was way out of my league.

One day whilst browsing the dealer used sites I spotted a 2200 with the Vector 4 arm,the Mrs approved so the deal was done with a PX of the VPI.The Basis is an absolute doddle to set up,the arm is a dream being a dualpivot so the azimuth is factory set.I had it up and running within an hour and it has never needed any further adjustments.I did need a new belt this year as the old one had stretched over the years,tried an OEM belt but had to keep sending them back as they were rubbish.Basis grind their own belts as no one would make them to the tolerances they required,but they cost circa $200 gulp !! anyway a friend in the states got me one for about 50% of retail,so all is now well.

I do sometimes think about getting a vintage deck for mono use,but after what the Mrs has had to put up with my set ups over the years I think divorce could be on the cards if I did.

[Haselsh1]

Yeah, OK, I agree with the iconic turntables of the past. I started this hobby in 1978 and my God I have known some iconic turntables in that time but they are now very old and probably now very knackered. If you truly want to own a vintage unit you would be well advised to be very careful in your choice. Over the last thirty years or so I can only think of maybe three or four truly iconic turntables worthy of worry and potential money wasting and that doesn't even start on iconic tonearms...!

[British high fidelity]

Yeah, OK, I agree with the iconic turntables of the past. I started this hobby in 1978 and my God I have known some iconic turntables in that time but they are now very old and probably now very knackered. If you truly want to own a vintage unit you would be well advised to be very careful in your choice. Over the last thirty years or so I can only think of maybe three or four truly iconic turntables worthy of worry and potential money wasting and that doesn't even start on iconic tonearms...!
Ok i’l bite, which 3 or 4?

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[Haselsh1]

From my own experiences of the business I would say, Original Townshend Rock, Alphason Sonata later models, Logic DM101 and possibly Technics SL1210.

[British high fidelity]

Nice top 4, definately the townshend and the Sonata but havent heard the 1210 or the Logic

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[Haselsh1]

I think technically the fave turntable is the Sonata but the best memories revolve (geddit) around the Logic. I have the fondest memories of that turntable fitted with a Syrinx tonearm. Anyhow, vintage now and most probably completely knackered ;)

[vinyljunky]

Mad moon of this forum has a logic dm 101 and it's definetly not knackered I've heard it and it sounds sublime

[Haselsh1]

Yeah, back in '83 I was so impressed I bought one. If I had one now I think I'd fit an Origin Live tonearm to it. Sublime turntable.

I think it cost me 375 quid brand new back then.

[brian2957]

Shaun , how do you rate your Stanton in comparison ?

[Haselsh1]

Shaun , how do you rate your Stanton in comparison ?

LMFAO, with the very greatest respect, you really have got to be kidding...?

[Jimbo]

The Stanton is a cheap DJ turntable!:lol:

[montesquieu]

It all depends on money. There are undoubtedly some fantastic modern (or at least 'current') turntables - VPI is mentioned, but you need to talk about Platine Verdier, or maybe some of the top of the range stuff from Goldmund, Clearaudio or even SME. Are vintage turntables always as good as these top-end statement products? In reality, probably not. But for the money you can get surprisingly close, for a literal fraction of the cost.

I've been round the (vintage) houses over many years now. I had an LP12 for 20 years, but hearing a Townshend Rock changed my perspective and made me realise I was missing a lot. I've since owned both the Rock and the Rock Reference, assorted tricked out 401s and Lencos, a three-motor Voyd, and a couple of Denon DDs (among several others). I won't list the tonearms and cartridges. I settled on the Thorens TD124 MkII because I thought it was supremely musical though I don't doubt there are quieter, more resolving decks out there but the Thorens for me was the sweet spot in this lot.

I've heard other decent decks, vintage and modern, that I really liked and would willingly own, such as the SP10 (do you count the Techie as vintage or modern? Nottingham Analogue? I don't know). But the Thorens does it for me.

Back to the question - cost no object? I would go modern. Looking for best bang for the buck? Go vintage (or at least, not 'new'). I mentioned you can get vintage decks to perform nearly as good as modern high end for a fraction of the cost - I haven't heard a new production deck under £5k I'd take over my TD124. But I have definitely heard a couple over £20k that I'd gladly give a home to, given the cash.

[Haselsh1]

The Stanton is a cheap DJ turntable!:lol:

It sure is in exactly the same way the SL1210 is.

[Haselsh1]

Hmmm... you mention Nottingham Analogue. Absolutely love their decks especially the cheapie Interspace deck. I'd quite forgotten about them.

[Jimbo]

Notts analogue would definitely be good choice, it would have been mine if I hadn't heard the VPI.

[topoxforddoc]

There are undoubtedly some fantastic modern (or at least 'current') turntables - VPI is mentioned, but you need to talk about Platine Verdier, or maybe some of the top of the range stuff from Goldmund, Clearaudio or even SME. Are vintage turntables always as good as these top-end statement products? In reality, probably not. But for the money you can get surprisingly close, for a literal fraction of the cost.




The Platine Verdier is hardly modern, but certainly still current, despite the passing of Jean-Claude Verdier. The PV is an 80s design, which keeps on performing. My PV is a cracker and totally outperformed my two TD124/IIs, my TD125, TD160 and Logic DM101. Mind you, as Tom says, the TD124/II is excellent value, if you don't want to spend >£5k on the TT chassis.

[Haselsh1]

Some of the things I found so attractive about the Logic DM101 was its resistance to structural feedback due mainly to its incredible suspension system and the sheer good looks of the thing. I find that in terms of good looks, it now shares that with the VPI Prime but of course it certainly doesn't share the suspension system with any VPI deck. At the time, back in 1983, we did a side to side comparison of the Logic with a Linn LP12 and the Logic quite literally obliterated the Linn at sound quality and detail resolution. It was a lovely deck back then but of course times change and things move on. At the present time I cannot imagine spending 3k or more on a turntable combo when for seven hundred quid I am getting such amazing resolution from my digital replay.

[337alant]

When I bought this Pioneer I sold my Linn LP12, Michell Gyro/Orbe, Rega PL3 :)

https://c8.staticflickr.com/1/718/32137769975_db39846920_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/QXUtmk)IMG_2867 (https://flic.kr/p/QXUtmk) by Alan Towell (https://www.flickr.com/photos/69508926@N05/), on Flickr

In modern turntables I do like the look of the VPI cecks but have never heard one.

Alan

[Clifford.T Ward]

For the exotic and for those with lots of Money a new deck can be .....however many who enjoy this hobby have only limited budgets and thus new can be ruled out .......

[karma67]

When I bought this Pioneer I sold my Linn LP12, Michell Gyro/Orbe, Rega PL3 :)

https://c8.staticflickr.com/1/718/32137769975_db39846920_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/QXUtmk)IMG_2867 (https://flic.kr/p/QXUtmk) by Alan Towell (https://www.flickr.com/photos/69508926@N05/), on Flickr

In modern turntables I do like the look of the VPI cecks but have never heard one.

Alan

The plc-590 is gorgeous mate, a lovely tt you have :)

[vinyljunky]

We have all lusted over Alan's deck at previous nebo it is indeed a thing of beauty and the performance is incredible

[Bigman80]

When I bought this Pioneer I sold my Linn LP12, Michell Gyro/Orbe, Rega PL3 :)

https://c8.staticflickr.com/1/718/32137769975_db39846920_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/QXUtmk)IMG_2867 (https://flic.kr/p/QXUtmk) by Alan Towell (https://www.flickr.com/photos/69508926@N05/), on Flickr

In modern turntables I do like the look of the VPI cecks but have never heard one.

Alan
That is beautiful. Possibly one of the only TT (for my price range) that I'd swap the Toshy out for.

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[Spectral Morn]

No one has mentioned Basis. I know the Debut and Ovation, early designs, nice turntables.

I sometimes think a lot of things slip passed me and I am late to news. It was with sadness I heard today that A J Conti owner and designer of Basis turntables had died back in October :(

Basis will and have continued after this sudden death - a heart attack.

[GJO]

Read post 81.

[Spectral Morn]

Read post 81.

So I see :)

[RobbieGong]

That is beautiful. Possibly one of the only TT (for my price range) that I'd swap the Toshy out for.

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Sweet looking piece from Pioneer that is. Typical of a good number of Japanese decks from the era, the tall platter just sets it off a treat.
I've always had a soft spot for this similar effort from Sansui https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=sansui+sr+929&tbm=isch&imgil=oib0HckkStHUzM%253A%253Bq1DNEu-O7RJl3M%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.vinylengi ne.com%25252Fturntable_forum%25252Fviewtopic.php%2 5253Ft%2525253D32921&source=iu&pf=m&fir=oib0HckkStHUzM%253A%252Cq1DNEu-O7RJl3M%252C_&usg=__io9pmfJlKgIYxcPk07s-aaWsVec%3D&biw=1920&bih=1094&ved=0ahUKEwjqt7yuyK3RAhVTnRQKHQHtB-wQyjcILg&ei=l5NvWKqQEdO6UoHan-AO#imgrc=2jDjJB4B4wvFHM%3A

[Marco]

It sure is in exactly the same way the SL1210 is.

Come again......? ;)

Marco.

[Haselsh1]

Come again......? ;)

Marco.

LOL... :eyebrows:

In its plain old bog standard guise it is no better than my ST.150 and yes, I have owned both.

[British high fidelity]

That is beautiful. Possibly one of the only TT (for my price range) that I'd swap the Toshy out for.

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So true its the only deck i still actively search the interweb regular for, something so special about it, one day i will have!

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[Marco]

LOL... :eyebrows:

In its plain old bog standard guise it is no better than my ST.150 and yes, I have owned both.

Heh-heh, ok I'll let you off! ;)

Marco.

[Marco]

When I bought this Pioneer I sold my Linn LP12, Michell Gyro/Orbe, Rega PL3 :)

https://c8.staticflickr.com/1/718/32137769975_db39846920_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/QXUtmk)IMG_2867 (https://flic.kr/p/QXUtmk) by Alan Towell (https://www.flickr.com/photos/69508926@N05/), on Flickr

In modern turntables I do like the look of the VPI cecks but have never heard one.


Nice one, Alan. How's the 103 sounding with all its 'supporting cast', as it were? :eyebrows:

Marco.

[petrat]

Vintage can give brilliant value for money, but for sheer performance, give me something modern from the likes of Brinkmann, Acustic Raven or STST. These are the turntables I will be looking for secondhand in ten years time ... excellent design, modern materials and control systems, individually precision-built by craftsmen.

[montesquieu]

Vintage can give brilliant value for money, but for shear performance, give me something modern from the likes of Brinkmann, Acustic Raven or STST. These are the turntables I will be looking for secondhand in ten years time ... excellent design, modern materials and control systems, individually precision-built by craftsmen.

First dibs on the Platine Verdier? :p

[British high fidelity]

Fight you for the Verdier lol

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[337alant]

Nice one, Alan. How's the 103 sounding with all its 'supporting cast', as it were? :eyebrows:

Marco.
Its sounding excellent Marco I really like it. I changed the headshell for this Ortofon 4000 and it sounds better still
Put the Kontrapunkt b back in the other day for a reality check and I still do like what that does with its deep bass and superb treble detail but it does sound a bit lean in the mids so very neutral, this is where the 103R excels.

Alan

[337alant]

A Vintage turntable in good working order can sound every bit as good as a new one, its a pity you just cant go out to a shop and buy some of the classic old turntables. There are still plenty of 1210s and 1200s around which can sound superb
Here is the Pioneer in action :)

xP6RHNBWrt0


Alan

[Floyddroid]

Any thoughts on a VPI Classic 3? That would combine a bit of both modern and vintage would it not?

[Jimbo]

Any thoughts on a VPI Classic 3? That would combine a bit of both modern and vintage would it not?

Not heard one Steve but it would certainly sound very good indeed, however you don't need to go to that level with VPI, the Prime will give you everything you would need. I have heard this deck many times and it is stunning but nearly £4000!:eek:

Personally I don't think you need to spend that much as the VPI Scout will do 90%?of the Prime. In fact Indonspend quite a lot if time in the VPI forum and the general thoughts are you are only getting small incremental benefits going up the ladder until you get to the Avenger where I am sure Nirvana happens! BUT you are talking £10000:eek: If I had the spare cash then this is where I would spend it, don't think any other manufacturer would get a look in.:)

[337alant]

Clear audio also do some nice looking turntables as well but I have never heard one?.

https://www.musicdirect.com/turntables/clearaudio-performance-dc-turntable

Alan

[British high fidelity]

A Vintage turntable in good working order can sound every bit as good as a new one, its a pity you just cant go out to a shop and buy some of the classic old turntables. There are still plenty of 1210s and 1200s around which can sound superb
Here is the Pioneer in action :)

xP6RHNBWrt0


Alan
Great video and man i more in love with this deck now, sublime & beautiful

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[Jimbo]

So Steve, have you decided yet?

[Mikeandvan]

Just in the middle of making a small repair to a RP3 so I can flog it, and it struck me how basic and flimsy these TTs are! Compare them to a Jap DD and the difference in build quality and technicality is enormous. Not saying the DD's are necessarily better sounding, may'be a Rega type build is all you need. But I do like the start/stop button on my 1210!

[JohnNB]

I think it may also depend on what vintage your ears are Tara. I got a Thorens TD160 MrkI in 1974. 40 yrs later I had to have the suspension and tonearm replaced. It sounds better now. If you're coming from digital I think you'll find modern decks great - more like live music. But for me a quality well set-up old deck is the ultimate hi fi. Analogue sounds like musicians playing, digital more pure processing IMO. I love the digital stuff too though, it's exciting and in your face. I suppose you'd get a modern tt repaired through dealer sending it to the makers. I reckon it's easier using vintage decks cos there's a lot of support out there when things need attention from people who know and love the gear.
John

[Ned664]

vintage japanese direct direct drive gets my vote.

Yep my Sony PSX70 sounds better than any of the belt drive nonsense I've had before - pls rega 3and Roksan Radius although that Roksan Nina arm was unique in soundstage.

[337alant]

Nice Pioneer PL50-2
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PIONEER-PL-50L2/201695594003?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D2%2 6asc%3D40794%26meid%3D276cc51e023f4c89877e1e37b13e c1f4%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D1122 49002772

100vac though so will need a step down transformer

Alan

[Floyddroid]

Yes.
So Steve, have you decided yet?

[mik_rik]

http://www.iavscanada.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/Pioneer-PL-630-Turntable-front.jpgThis is not mine ,but is what has replaced my Thorens decks .Had to resolve speed issues [Servisol is much better than WD]Very impressed ,even with basic Technics epc 207 cartridge Mick

[karma67]

i nearly bidded on one recently,they get good reviews on the net and look very nice.

[vinyljunky]

Mick loverly looking deck are you gonna bring it to nebo 8

[mik_rik]

Mick loverly looking deck are you gonna bring it to nebo 8

Was thinking about it but would be embarrassed by the low rent cartridge I have fitted,Technics EPC207 ,compared to what will be on show on the day

[vinyljunky]

May have a decent cart you can have for nowt I'll have a look

[Bigman80]

http://www.iavscanada.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/Pioneer-PL-630-Turntable-front.jpgThis is not mine ,but is what has replaced my Thorens decks .Had to resolve speed issues [Servisol is much better than WD]Very impressed ,even with basic Technics epc 207 cartridge Mick
That's very handsome.

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[Floyddroid]

Stunning

That's very handsome.

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[plastic penguin]

I've always had a soft spot for Thorens and my old Garrard SP25 MKV