The Timestep Bearing

[chris@panteg]

Right folks

Tomorrow i will be ordering the timestep bearing from Dave , and will be posting my thoughts ASAP .

Is anyone else getting one of these or the Mike New bearing '

[Marco]

Nice one, Chris. Keep us posted and review it here when you've got a proper handle on its effect :)

Marco.

[chris@panteg]

not sure if this is going to work , my 1st needle drop

Michael hedges from Watching my life go by, a digital recording from 1985 :doh:

http://www.mediafire.com/?nnzmjemg4yt


and this Art blakey big band with j Coltrane a stomping jazz number


http://www.mediafire.com/?zyjio5fmj4w


This is the stock techie bearing ' will post some more with the Timestep when i get it .

[chris@panteg]

Oh i forgot to mention they are 24/48 and a big thank you to Andrew (flatty) what a fine chap you are sir .

[chris@panteg]

Guy's some thought's on how they sound ' poor ' ok ' good whatever be honest i don't mind

I am not convinced i am getting this right so far ' so have done a couple more '

http://www.mediafire.com/?jinm2yzmnni

http://www.mediafire.com/?mizanz41maq

[chris@panteg]

The postman ' has just delivered the new bearing ' just in time for Xmas ' thanks Dave will fit shortly and see what happens .

[DSJR]

Not able to listen to them properly today, but if you do the same "after" it would be interesting ;)

[Marco]

The postman ' has just delivered the new bearing ' just in time for Xmas ' thanks Dave will fit shortly and see what happens .

Hi Chris,

I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts on the difference :)

Marco.

[chris@panteg]

Hi marco '

i will do my very best to convey the diference as i hear it .

I have not had a chance today ' working late and then some late night shopping with my wifey:( .

I had a quick look at it ' it seem's very nicely made '

One point i can make is ' it will need at least 20+ hours to run in and settle down ' this is part of the instructions which Dave has provided ' very good they are too .


Looking forward to hearing it now ' i feel an Xmas sesh coming on ' lets see King Crimson followed by Van der graf generator , and to finnish off some Chris rea and my prized Mr Mr album , :rolleyes:

[chris@panteg]

Right ok the bearing is now fitted and running in '

1st impression's there is a big reduction in the noise floor as Dave promised ' with superior definition in the bass .

It sounds leaner ' fitter and tighter ' with a much sweeter more delicate treble ' there was a comment on PFM that my deck needed to go on a diet ' lol ' this new bearing does make the original sound fat and a bit bloated :rolleyes:.

Its still not properly run in but its good ' i mean this is a really fundamental improvement i cannot be sure but i would say if you were to buy a 1200/1210 with a view to modding it ' i say start with the bearing :).

Marco you really need to hear this or the Mike New offering ' but you should still get an SP10 ' because you can ;).

Oh ' and this may raise a few smiles in some quarter's it sounds more tunefull ' hell it plays tune's ' it did before but i swear its improved in this respect ' and i still have the stock tonearm .

Incidently this is entirely subjective ' you can take or leave this comment but to me ' it seems to highlight the weakness of the arm more ' i am hearing less of the deck and the arm is more exposed ' does that make sense .

I will do some more needle drop's ' if anyone is interested ' i promise to keep the level's in check:rolleyes:.

[Marco]

Hi Chris,

Nice one, dude! A 'before and after' needle drop (using the same music) would've been good, but I guess that's not possible now... ;)

What you've reported is indeed very interesting, with the differences you've outlined brought about by the bearing upgrade being pretty much what I had suspected :)

I've now decided to postpone the SP10 project and continue with the modifications to my SL-1210, by getting the Mike New bearing fitted in the New Year (hopefully before the Scalford Hall bake-off in March).

There are a number of quite exciting upgrades Dave has in the pipeline for the Techy, which I feel will likely raise its performance ahead of that of the SP10. I also must admit that the idea of owning such a finely race-tuned 'DJ deck' that will compete with or outperform most 'high-end' T/Ts on the market at (virtually) any price rather amusing! :eyebrows:

Keep us posted with how your deck performs as the new bearing continues to bed in.

Marco.

[therockst4r]

After reading Chris's post I am thinking about getting myself one of these, how much does the new bearing cost?

[chris@panteg]

PM Dave he will do a good price for AOS member's .

HI Marco ' i can do before and after needle drop's , there are some on the earlier posts ' although i have struggled to get the level's right ' a bit of clipping here and there .

yes why not keep the 1210 ' i think you may :eek: at the Mike New bearing , Dave's is very very good ' but i suspect Mike's is in a different league .

I let the deck just run today ' i am perfectly happy with Dave's bearing you see because i really need to find the cash for a better arm now :scratch:.

[therockst4r]

Thanks Chris, I sent Dave a PM. Where would I get a Mike New bearing? I would like to get quotes on both before I buy.

[DSJR]

I don't want to change my name, but it's DAVE CAWLEY (Sound HiFi/Timestep) you need to contact :lolsign:

http://www.soundhifi.com/sl1200/index.htm

[Marco]

I let the deck just run today ' i am perfectly happy with Dave's bearing you see because i really need to find the cash for a better arm now...


Hi Chris,

Yeah, defo - you're still using the stock arm, right? Even with a DL-160, either of the Jelcos would still wipe the floor with the stock Techy arm. A cartridge upgrade in the future would also work dividends, but one thing at a time :)

What are your thoughts regarding arms, then?

Marco.

[chris@panteg]

Dave Cawley ' has the Mike New bearing as well ' some confusion there ' Dave C is also a member on here .

[chris@panteg]

Hi Chris,

Yeah, defo - you're still using the stock arm, right? Even with a DL-160, either of the Jelcos would still wipe the floor with the stock Techy arm. A cartridge upgrade in the future would also work dividends, but one thing at a time :)

What are your thoughts regarding arms, then?

Marco.

Thanks Marco ' yes i would agree ' also much as i like the DL160 ' it seems a compromise to me ' when is an MC cart not an MC cart ' when its a H/O MC .

To me its sort of in between MM and MC .

Regarding the arm its really tempting to go for the Jelco 250ST ' as its so affordable at the moment ' but i do fancy the 309 :scratch:.

Just in the middle of uploading some needle drop's ' Paul Simon/Michael Hedges/ and 2 by Art Blakey .

[Marco]

I think the 309's probably the one to go for at that price point *if* you're planning on using a 'normal' MC cartridge (read as: not a DL-103 variant, or any other low-compliance design), otherwise the Jelco SA-750D works breathtakingly well on the Techy.

However, before opting for the 309 I'd have a word with Martin T, as he reckons that his Jelco SA-250ST is as good as his old SME IV....... He's got rather more experience of SMEs than I have.

The DL-160 is a superb 'giant-killing' cartridge for the money, but you're right, 95% of high-output MCs are not really at the races compared with a good low-output design. I do however quite like the Sumiko Blue Point Special Evo III:

http://www.needledoctor.com/Sumiko-Blue-Point-Special-Evo-III

...and the Dynavector DV-10x4 (both high-output designs).

If you give me an idea of which cartridge you fancy I'll gladly offer some tonearm recommendations.


Just in the middle of uploading some needle drop's ' Paul Simon/Michael Hedges/ and 2 by Art Blakey.


Look forward to having a listen :)

Marco.

[chris@panteg]

Thanks Marco

Yes Martin has already urged me to go for the 250st ' i just might i think as the 309 is around a Grand ' more or less ' where as the 250st can be had for a great price (inc cable) at the moment .

In the past i have had an Ekos with a ESC rebuilt troika ' (LP12) and more recently an SME 310 with the Music Maker ' (Voyd) both sounded completely different ' i would say on balance the latter combo with the Voyd ' was more accurate and natural sounding.

The troika though was a very fine cart especially after the rebuild ' i think Linn's finest IMHO.

Its a tricky one really '
I will have a think about cartridges ' i certainly need to hear yours at Scalford next march '

[DSJR]

I've always liked SME, but their current pricing is just plain ludicrous IMO. I suspect their arms aren't too dear by Hong Kong standards and it's this "top tier" of audio enthusiasts they're courting. The rest of us can enjoy the Jelco's at favourable prices and smile....

[chris@panteg]

Dave i am seriously leaning towards the Jelco ' now.

OK a few needle drop's the 1st 2 sets are before and after ' the last one is with the new bearing only .



http://www.mediafire.com/?mizanz41maq

http://www.mediafire.com/?zmhmuezne0n


http://www.mediafire.com/?nnzmjemg4yt

http://www.mediafire.com/?hdkrwyhyggt


http://www.mediafire.com/?mxxbzmmunxw

[chris@panteg]

Ok a few more thought's on the new bearing .

A small but interesting point ' when the needle hits the groove it makes a different sound ' i am not sure what that could mean ' so excuse my ignorance ' Dave C or someone help me out here :scratch:.

Overall the presentation of music appears to be calmer or less busy ' i could say it sounds more understated ' but i always think thats a good thing .

Soundstaging appears much more solid and stable ' timbre of acoustic instrument's is better ' and an overall feeling of a much more refined turntable .

The original bearing does look a crude design and there is a little rough coarseness to its sound '

If the needle drops i have done ' don't bear this out ' :eyebrows: i would ask you all to just take my word for it ' that this is a crucial upgrade/improvement to the 1200.

Many ask ' why bother with all these upgrade's when you can go out and buy a well sorted deck in the 1st place ' well this a good question ' and i am afraid i cannot give a sensible answer to that one , i just enjoy the tweaking aspect ' or like Dave Cawley's web page ' turning an ugly duckling into a beautiful swan .

I have a couple more needle drop's ' which i will post later ' but this bearing is an excellent upgrade ' buy it with confidence ' or if you are flushed defo go for the Mike New bearing ' which i am 100% convinced will be quite gobsmacking .

[chris@panteg]

Moved to the needle drop thread

[Marco]

Hi Chris,


If the needle drops i have done ' don't bear this out ' i would ask you all to just take my word for it ' that this is a crucial upgrade/improvement to the 1200.


I don't doubt it, matey - nice reporting so far :)

Btw, can you do me a favour and post the needle drops you've made so far also on Andrew's needle drop thread in Analogue Art?

Cheers, dude! :cool:

Marco.

[chris@panteg]

Hi Marco ' yes of course will do

[Marco]

Cheers, matey! :cool:

Marco.

[chris@panteg]

Happy new year everyone ' .

Right ' perhaps a downside to the new bearing , i think it really show's up the stock tone arm as being ' flat ' compressed ' with limited dynamics and hardly any bass extension ' and a soft overall sound .

I believe the original bearing was feeding back and bigging up the bass '
the more i listen to it , (the new bearing is nearly run in now) i am more convinced of this ' i mentioned in an earlier post ' when the stylus hits the groove it ' instead of a dull thump ' its now more of a light click .

The net result of this upgrade though ' and i hate to be negative but i now have a turntable which sounds a bit lean ' flat @ mean , but i i put this down to the arm , i do not regret buying the bearing one bit ' i think i have been kidding my self that i can live with the techy arm :doh:. I don't think i can :mental: ,

I say all these things but of course you can cast some doubt ' as the way i have set everything up could be wrong .

It would be cool if anyone has the new bearing ' if they can comment please .

[Marco]

Hi Chris,

Happy New Year to you, matey!

Interesting stuff - what you're describing I wouldn't have predicted, but like you say, it can't be perceived as a negative in terms of the new bearing, but rather with it simply revealing the deficiencies of the stock tonearm.


Right ' perhaps a downside to the new bearing , i think it really show's up the stock tone arm as being ' flat ' compressed ' with limited dynamics and hardly any bass extension ' and a soft overall sound .


Yes, you can hear these traits quite clearly in you needle drops...

I think you definitely need to bite the bullet, me old son, and get a new tonearm :)

Marco.

[chris@panteg]

Hi Marco

Yes i have been thinking along those line's ,
as well as the Jelco's and Sme ' i am wondering about a nice 2nd hand Ekos or ittok , but at it stands the 250st seems a cracker for the price.

Its interesting to also add ' i now find myself upping the volume on my 740a by around ' say 3-4 db , its as though everything is much quieter .

:cool: anyway i think a night on the Guinness is in order .

[anthonyTD]

hi all,
well, coming from an engineering backround i would be very sceptical of a turntable bearing that can make an otherwise ok sounding turntable and arm perform worse, think about it,,, the main things you want from a turntable bearing are, quiet running with as little vibration as posible while still providing a solid platform for the arm and cartridge to gain as much information from the record grooves as posible.
A...

[chris@panteg]

Hi Anthony

Yes you are quite right ' to be honest i really think i am out of my depth here ' which is why Richard Black writes about and evaluates turntables or used to ' and i do what i do .

[jonners]

Its interesting to also add ' i now find myself upping the volume on my 740a by around ' say 3-4 db , its as though everything is much quieter .


Chris -

That seems like a big difference. Are you sure that nothing has gone amiss somewhere in your system? I know all too well that it's easy for gremlins to get in when you change something!

[DSJR]

Get your cartridge looked at pronto - been there - done that and wore out many tee-shirts...

I'd echo Ant's post and add that any tiny rock in the bearing (microns) which is magnified at the platter edge, so a tighter and lower friction bearing must be the way to go?????

have you got the right lubricant in it?????

[chris@panteg]

Well its the oil Dave C supplied '

It might be a cartridge problem ' i just gave it the Cardas record treatment '( its supposed to clean the stylus as well ) dubious i know but it sounds better for it .

[Marco]

Hi Anthony,


hi all,
well, coming from an engineering backround i would be very sceptical of a turntable bearing that can make an otherwise ok sounding turntable and arm perform worse, think about it,,, the main things you want from a turntable bearing are, quiet running with as little vibration as posible while still providing a solid platform for the arm and cartridge to gain as much information from the record grooves as posible.


You're absolutely right, but I guess that the problems Chris is experiencing are difficult for us to ascertain, given the amount of variables there are in the equation in order to try to explain what's happening in his system, and also the limitations of language for him to accurately describe it :)

Marco.

[REM]

Well I hope we get to the bottom of this certainly for Chris' sake but also as I have the Mike New bearing on order and given that I have zero confidence in my fettling abilities I may just re-think things and let a few more accomplished people have a go at this bearing change business before taking the plunge...:scratch:

[DSJR]

Psst - I think it's the cartridge/cantilever/stylus and not the bearing at all!!!!!!!!!!

[chris@panteg]

Yes ' this is getting out of hand ' there is nothing wrong with the Bearing.

After using the Cardas record ' today ' it sounds quite a bit fresher ' .

[Marco]

You're quite right, Chris - it is getting out of hand :)

This is no reflection on you, btw, but it has to be said.....

When contemplating getting these kind of modifications done, unless you know 100% what you're doing, leave it to the professionals.

Dave designed this bearing, after much experimenting and research, so you can be damn sure he'll know how to get the most out of it.

Therefore, my advice for anyone thinking of buying a Timestep bearing, or one of the Mike New ones, is to visit Dave at his place and get the job done properly. When I get the Mike New bearing fitted to my deck, I'll be undertaking my usual 500-odd mile round trip from North Wales.

Honestly, it's worth the effort and peace of mind of knowing the job has been done properly, and that you're getting the most from your investment. Dave's a true gentleman, lives in an absolutely beautiful part of the country, has a superb brand new demo room, and his wife Jill makes great tea and sandwiches!

Therefore for anyone living in the UK buying one of the new bearings for the Techy, get in your car and pay Dave a visit. I guarantee it will be great day out and well worth your time and effort :cool:

Marco.

[REM]

Probably right, been thinking along those lines for a while, will think about making it a long w/e sometime come the spring, make a nice change from the cold/wind/ice and snow (and that's the weather round here in April!).


Cheers

[Dave Cawley]

Guys

I have always promoted the holistic approach. Lets take an analogy, I really don't like analogies, but this seems to be the only way to do it?

1. Take a standard Renault Clio, are the brakes OK, yes they are! Put in a tuned engine producing 75% more power, are the brakes OK now? No ! Same brakes as before, but now no good............... Was the modification worthwhile, no!

2. Take another standard Renault Clio, put on a set of Bremo brakes. Are they better, yes they are! Now put in that 75% more power engine, are the brakes good, yes they are! Was the modification worthwhile, yes it was!

So what does this tell us? My recommendation for modifying the SL-1200 series in chorological order is :-

1. Change the mat

2. Change the PSU (one designed specifically for future upgrades)

3. Change the arm

4. Change the bearing

Regards

Dave

[therockst4r]

@Dave, I intend to do just that, did you get my PM about a new mat? I know I sent it, but my sent box is empty..

[anthonyTD]

Guys

I have always promoted the holistic approach. Lets take an analogy, I really don't like analogies, but this seems to be the only way to do it?

1. Take a standard Renault Clio, are the brakes OK, yes they are! Put in a tuned engine producing 75% more power, are the brakes OK now? No ! Same brakes as before, but now no good............... Was the modification worthwhile, no!

2. Take another standard Renault Clio, put on a set of Bremo brakes. Are they better, yes they are! Now put in that 75% more power engine, are the brakes good, yes they are! Was the modification worthwhile, yes it was!

So what does this tell us? My recommendation for modifying the SL-1200 series in chorological order is :-

1. Change the mat

2. Change the PSU (one designed specifically for future upgrades)

3. Change the arm

4. Change the bearing

Regards

Dave

i have to agree with dave here, the bearing should have been the last thing to change, then you would have heard the benefits [or not]from all the main item changes before finaly getting the bearing done, only then would you be able to truly evaluate its merits.
A...

[Marco]

Guys

I have always promoted the holistic approach. Lets take an analogy, I really don't like analogies, but this seems to be the only way to do it?

1. Take a standard Renault Clio, are the brakes OK, yes they are! Put in a tuned engine producing 75% more power, are the brakes OK now? No ! Same brakes as before, but now no good............... Was the modification worthwhile, no!

2. Take another standard Renault Clio, put on a set of Bremo brakes. Are they better, yes they are! Now put in that 75% more power engine, are the brakes good, yes they are! Was the modification worthwhile, yes it was!

So what does this tell us? My recommendation for modifying the SL-1200 series in chorological order is :-

1. Change the mat

2. Change the PSU (one designed specifically for future upgrades)

3. Change the arm

4. Change the bearing


That says it all; you're absolutely right, Dave - great analogy.

No-one can criticise Chris for having the bearing upgraded before his tonearm - it's simply a circumstantial thing, and this will sometimes happen, but I think at this point it's prudent to remind people of how important it is to grasp the benefits of the "holistic approach" you refer to, as quite simply it's the key to getting an SL-1200/1210 to 'sing'.

The final parts of a jigsaw will only fit together properly if the previous correct parts of the jigsaw are already in place...

Don't forget that in terms of Dave's 'holistic' approach when modifying the SL-1200/1210 ;)

The mistake some people are making is 'cherry-picking' certain items from one example of Dave's 'holistic approaches' (working from his product portfolio) and partnering it with something else, which it wasn't designed to partner, or introducing the 'wrong' type of upgrade at an inappropriate time (in Chris' case).

The good thing with Chris is that his situation can easily be resolved with a tonearm upgrade, because he already has all the other correct bits of the jigsaw in place, therefore he's not a 'lost cause' in that respect, the way that sadly some people are or have been in the past.

The real problem lies when people insist on trying to 'better' an (exhaustively) tried and tested upgrade path/'holistic approach' by attempting to mix and match bits that were never designed to work together, in order to try to be clever and 'go one better'. I'm afraid that such an approach is more than likely destined to fail, and those trying it will quite simply never fully 'get' what modifying an SL-1200/1210 is about or hear the turntable at its full potential, often in the process mistakenly dismissing it for something inferior.

Examples?

1) Buying a Time Step PSU for an SL-1200/1210 and then fitting, say, a Rega-based tonearm.

2) Buying, say, a Funk Firm Achromat for the above and then fitting an SME 309 and Transfiguration Aria.

3) Buying, say, a Jelco SA-250T for the above and then fitting a Denon DL-103.

4) Buying an 'alien' PSU for the above (i.e. not an item factored into Dave's 'holistic' equation) and then fitting, say, a Jelco SA-750D and an OC-9, which *are* part of that equation.

I could go on........

Being an individual and making your own choices is all good and well (I value this approach myself), but there are times in life when tried and tested combinations unavoidably offer the best solutions, so my advice is to take advantage of the knowledge and experience of those who've already done all the 'leg work' for you, as it were, unless you enjoy going round in circles and the frustration that goes with it!

If you really want to hear what a modified SL-1200/1210 is capable of and ensure that its component parts genuinely compliment each other, thus obtaining long-term musical satisfaction from this turntable, then you must follow a 'holistic'/synergistic approach to modifying it :cool:

Dave, or the likes of me, will always be on hand to assist and offer our advice, so if you're unsure which way to go when embarking on a journey of modifying Technics T/Ts, please use our knowledge and experience to help guide you and avoid frustrating (or often costly!) mistakes.

...And there endeth the lesson.

Marco.

P.S Welcome back, Dave :)

[chris@panteg]

Guy's

Ok i need to put things right ' here ' on boxing day i played some brand new vinyl ' Them Crooked Vultures ' it sounded flat and lifeless to be honest as did everything else i listened to .

Its back to work for me today ' but i had another listen to the Vultures album '

:eek: wow its come to life ' ok accepting the limitations of the arm ' it was gutsy ' open and totally effortless sounding .

I think the cartridge was in desperate need of a clean ' the Cardas has helped but i need something else .

So apologies for perhaps some confusion ' i think the new bearing needs maybe 10 days or more to run in , it really sounds together now ' listening to the Verve ' The Forth ' this had a huge expansive sound with some thunderous bass .

I still stand by what i said about the arm ' but you can clearly hear something special with this new bearing ' if i were to use one word (or two) to describe how it best improves the venerable 1200 ' is it sounds so effortless and unforced .

So am i a happy bunny now ' you bet :)

Btw fitting the bearing is pretty easy really , but Marco has a good point ' a visit to Dave's would be enjoyable also.

[Marco]

Hi Chris,

I'm glad that things have worked out for you, but (and I'm sure you know this already) you'll have to bite the bullet and upgrade your arm sooner rather than later - then you'll really hear the full effect of the bearing upgrade! I'm sure you'll get a good idea of which way to go after the Scalford Hall bake-off... :)


Btw fitting the bearing is pretty easy really , but Marco has a good point ' a visit to Dave's would be enjoyable also.


First of all, when it comes to that stuff, I'm a ham-fisted bugger of the highest order and would probably end up making an arse of it! I know and acknowledge my limitations. Secondly, the 'what if?' factor of always worrying about if I've fitted the bearing correctly or not would do my head in, so I'd rather eliminate that completely by getting it fitted by the person who designed it.....

Oh, and it's always nice meeting up with Dave and spending a pleasant day in Dartmouth :cool:

Marco.

[DSJR]

I don't know if this is possible in a reference thread in the library, but I think Dave's "schedule of works" on the Techie should be posted permanently for all to refer to as it's so important..

See Chris, I was right about the cartridge needing a good clean, wasn't I. I've heard too many gummy styli in my time before and after... :lolsign:

[chris@panteg]

Yes Dave

Funnily enough ' just ordered a bottle of AT607 ' you are indeed a man wise in all things turntable related ' am i right that you were an LP12 specialist at one time ' .

I had a good look underneath my DL160 and it was covered in a very fine dust ' well slightly exaggerated ' but far to much for my liking , so gently brushed it off .

[therockst4r]

@Marco: What is the problem with combination 1? and is 4 just a cartridge and arm mismatch?
Eventually I wanted to upgrade my PSU, but first I was thinking of fitting either a Jelco arm or a fully modded OL1.

[DSJR]

Yes, I *thought* I was an LP12 specialist. I tried my best and apparently got good sounds from it. I also used to be anal about it as the "Guru" in Leicester is (and he *is* very good to be fair), but then I heard a Spacedeck wipe the LP12's nose and it sort of soured things Linn wise until I heard a brand new Cirkussed LP12 with Aro and XX2 ten years or so ago and it was rather good with all "fruitbox excesses" held well in check....

As far as options are concerned; bearing in mind I don't have this techie model, it seems that Rega based arms don't seem to like the SL1210 overmuch. Jelco do market a range of at least three arms and Dave Cawley claims to be able to price match on two of them (if I've read his site properly) and offers a discount to AOS members for things like arm-plates etc. I'd seriously take his advice.

The Timestep supply isn't overly expensive for what it is in retail terms (the Wave Mechanic is £499 IIRC) and the "straight" Jelco arm (250?) at £350 or so with cable will take most cartridges except the fussiest I think.

Hope I'm talking sense here..

[therockst4r]

Thanks Dave, as the OL1 is a rega based arm I am worried it may hate my techie, which makes me lean towards the more expensive Jelco arm. I will have to talk to the other Dave about this I guess.

[DSJR]

Ask Hifi dave what he thinks of OL arms finish wise, rust etc.....

[therockst4r]

Ask Hifi dave what he thinks of OL arms finish wise, rust etc.....
Oh, I am not too concerned with aesthetics, I just want to make sure that the arm will play nicely with my techie.

[DSJR]

Then get a "no-hype" Jelco and be done with it...:)

[therockst4r]

Then get a "no-hype" Jelco and be done with it...:)
Where is the fun in that? Then I can't have a hyped up arm! Seriously though the reviews on that arm are very good, the overall conclusion seems to be that for its price it is a great arm.

[Dave Cawley]

the overall conclusion seems to be that for its price it is a great arm. For a SL-1200? Where?

Dave

[Marco]

Hi Anthony,


@Marco: What is the problem with combination 1? and is 4 just a cartridge and arm mismatch?


In my experience, and also to my tastes, Rega or modified Rega-derived arms are a bad sonic match for the SL-1200/1210. The (relative) neutrality of fully modified examples simply showcases the rather 'grey', matter-of-fact, mechanical, presentation of the aforementioned tonearms.

However, don't take my word for it, try to find someone near you who's using an SL-1200 or 1210 with a Rega-based arm and listen for yourself. You may like the effect. At the end of the day, it's your ears that matter, not mine :)

'4' is simply a lack of synergy/holism.


Eventually I wanted to upgrade my PSU, but first I was thinking of fitting either a Jelco arm or a fully modded OL1.


What cartridge are you intending to use? Obviously not the Concorde ;)

When I know that I'll be in a position to offer a suitable tonearm recommendation.

Marco.

[therockst4r]

the overall conclusion seems to be that for its price it is a great arm. For a SL-1200? Where?

Dave

I was making a general statement not a turntable dependent one.


Hi Anthony,



In my experience, and also to my tastes, Rega or modified Rega-derived arms are a bad sonic match for the SL-1200/1210. The (relative) neutrality of fully modified examples simply showcases the rather 'grey', matter-of-fact presentation of the aforementioned tonearms.

However, don't take my word for it, try to find someone near you who's using an SL-1200 or 1210 with a Rega-based arm and listen for yourself. You may like the effect. At the end of the day, it's your ears that matter, not mine :)

'4' is simply a lack of synergy/holism.



What cartridge are you intending to use? Obviously not the Concorde ;)

When I know that I'll be in a position to offer a suitable tonearm recommendation.

Marco.
If I go the Jelco route I will get a Audio Technica AT-OC9ML/II cartridge, idk if I would use this cart on the OC1.

[Jason P]

For what it's worth, I didn't like my OL1 (with all the bells & whistles) on the Tecchie at all, trying it with a Grado Silver, AT OC5, and an ADC XLMIII. Flat as a fart and very mechanical sounding in every case. Much preferred the stock arm (and I mean stock, not the modded one I have now) in every case, even though it had shortcomings. I wouln't go down that route if I were in your shoes.

Jason

[therockst4r]

For what it's worth, I didn't like my OL1 (with all the bells & whistles) on the Tecchie at all, trying it with a Grado Silver, AT OC5, and an ADC XLMIII. Flat as a fart and very mechanical sounding in every case. Much preferred the stock arm (and I mean stock, not the modded one I have now) in every case, even though it had shortcomings. I wouln't go down that route if I were in your shoes.

Jason
Then it's settled, Jelco it is. Thanks for the advice.
I wonder if it is worth getting the Jelco 750 instead of the 250...

[DSJR]

I only argue FOR the Rega arm because I know it can sound really good on the right deck. The NAS Spacedeck gives life to this arm - maybe it's the collet the pillar sits in allowing height sdjustment and a small amount of decoupling/resonance break, I don't know..

Any of the Jelco's are great for the Techie I think, so good luck..

[Marco]

If I go the Jelco route I will get a Audio Technica AT-OC9ML/II cartridge, idk if I would use this cart on the OC1.

Sounds like a good plan, Anthony. I wouldn't discount an SME 309 either if your budget can stretch to it :)

{Edit: I've just noticed this}


Then it's settled, Jelco it is. Thanks for the advice.
I wonder if it is worth getting the Jelco 750 instead of the 250...


With an OC-9 I'm not sure it would matter too much. I'd take Dave C's advice on that one, as he's played with both arms using an OC-9 more than I have.

Marco.

[therockst4r]

@Marco, I would have probably gone for the 250 anyway, as I can't foresee myself having the cash for the 750 anytime soon. As for the SME, it will by my first purchase after winning the lotto ;)

[Marco]

The 250 is a great arm, Anthony, and will match an OC-9 really well. Enjoy it when the time comes :)

Marco.

[therockst4r]

Thanks, Marco. Do you think it is worth the money to replace the wiring on that arm?

[Marco]

On the Jelco 250 - I presume you're buying it from Dave C? If so, he'll supply some very good Neglex tonearm leads (same as I use on my SA 750) that will work superly well :)

Marco.

[therockst4r]

I will probably buy it from Dave, I just want to make sure that I am not getting lousy cables, because the current ones are causing a hum.

[Marco]

You've got no worries on that score - the Neglex ones are superb. Remember with Dave you'll get an AoS discount and/or he'll match anyone's price for Jelcos! :)

Marco.

[therockst4r]

Aye, I might have to get a new arm sooner than I had hoped... I took apart the tt and the hum is coming from either the wires, the arm, or the cartridge... I still don't know which.

[chris@panteg]

Hi Anthony

The hum you are describing ' i believe is almost certainly due to the internal transformer in your techy ' .

If or when you get an outboard psu like the timestep ' when fitting ' whip out that lump form your techy's innards ' and no more hum ;) .

[therockst4r]

Hi Anthony

The hum you are describing ' i believe is almost certainly due to the internal transformer in your techy ' .

If or when you get an outboard psu like the timestep ' when fitting ' whip out that lump form your techy's innards ' and no more hum ;) .
I thought of that, but there is a hum when the turntable is off, and when the tonearm is completely removed from the turntable's body.

[jonners]

I thought of that, but there is a hum when the turntable is off, and when the tonearm is completely removed from the turntable's body.

Anthony -

Have you got electrical continuity between the earth wire leading from the arm and the body of the arm itself?
If that's OK then a new arm may not necessarily solve the problem, because it could be caused by an earth loop in your system or a preamp problem.
It's also possible, as you say, that the interconnect cables are defective in some way.

[therockst4r]

Anthony -

Have you got electrical continuity between the earth wire leading from the arm and the body of the arm itself?
If that's OK then a new arm may not necessarily solve the problem, because it could be caused by an earth loop in your system or a preamp problem.
I believe I have continuity; the earth wire is properly attached to the arm. I doubt the preamp is the problem as that gets a lot quieter when I unplug the turntable's RCA plugs from it. As for a ground loop problem in the system I have no idea how to solve that.

[MartinT]

Well guys, I'm still waiting for my Mike New bearing to arrive. Can't wait to get it installed and post some testing results. For those of you teetering on the brink of buying a Jelco 250ST, it is a tremendous arm for the money. I've used mine with a Denon DL-160 (high output mc) and Audio Technica AT33PTG (low output mc) and the Neglex arm lead. Excellent tracking, settings that don't drift and a feeling of solidity to its mounting and bearings. It doesn't look a million dollars like the 750, but I can live with that.

I seem to have ticked all the prerequisites for changing the bearing (including a brilliant phono stage) so my Techie is ready and waiting.

[DSJR]

Silly question, but some power amps earth themselves through the screen of the interconnect and if pre and power are both earthed, you'll have a hum loop even if it's at a very low level. In my system, everything is earthed to the preamp, which has a solid connection to mains earth. The only problem I have is the SUT picks up hum from nearby transformers and I've found it difficult to site it carefully.

[therockst4r]

Silly question, but some power amps earth themselves through the screen of the interconnect and if pre and power are both earthed, you'll have a hum loop even if it's at a very low level. In my system, everything is earthed to the preamp, which has a solid connection to mains earth. The only problem I have is the SUT picks up hum from nearby transformers and I've found it difficult to site it carefully.
Oh, I never thought about the amp causing the problem, luckily I am getting a new amp in a few days, so when that arrives I will retest my turntable.

[DSJR]

Keep the deck away from mains transformers..

[therockst4r]

Keep the deck away from mains transformers..
I tried moving the tt further away from my other components; however, this did not help at all.

[chris@panteg]

Well guys, I'm still waiting for my Mike New bearing to arrive. Can't wait to get it installed and post some testing results. For those of you teetering on the brink of buying a Jelco 250ST, it is a tremendous arm for the money. I've used mine with a Denon DL-160 (high output mc) and Audio Technica AT33PTG (low output mc) and the Neglex arm lead. Excellent tracking, settings that don't drift and a feeling of solidity to its mounting and bearings. It doesn't look a million dollars like the 750, but I can live with that.

I seem to have ticked all the prerequisites for changing the bearing (including a brilliant phono stage) so my Techie is ready and waiting.

Hi Martin

I think i am pretty certain ' the 250st is the arm for me ' i did really fancy a 309 , but its a lot of money and i have in the past owned the 10 inch version , but why not the Jelco .

I think you will be amazed with the bearing upgrade ' give it some time to bed in ' mine seems to be improving all the time ' today i was listening and i was struck by how calm it seems now ' the lack of noise ' this is important as it allows you to hear more low level detail , present techy arm excepted of course.

[chris@panteg]

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu82/chrispanteg30/DSC00238.jpg

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu82/chrispanteg30/DSC00239.jpg


i just wanted to post a couple of pics ' sorry about the quality ' must do better.

1st time i have done this

The original bearing really seems inadequate for the job to me .

[chris@panteg]

A photo underneath of my old Voyd
that had a seriously good bearing !

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu82/chrispanteg30/DSCF0223.jpg

[chris@panteg]

I felt compelled to say a few more words on Dave Cawley's bearing .

This morning i had a brief listening session ' and just had to say ' it sounds superb ,
there is a wonderful openness and clarity to the presentation ' a solid and sure footed bottom end with excellent timing or prat ' a wider and much deeper soundstage ' this for me is the crucial difference ' its as though the 1200 has been reinvented .

Now the strangest thing is it sounds so much better than 2 weeks ago ? yes my stylus was dirty , but there is something else ' i was thinking maybe the cold was affecting performance of the DL160 ' maybe or just the bearing needed more running in.

But no matter i am delighted with this upgrade ' the question is should you buy this or the Mike New Bearing ' to me its quite simple , if you can afford it and are hooked on the 1200 then get the Mike New ' .

If on the other hand you can't or cannot justify spending that much ' you won't be disappointed with Dave's bearing .

This upgrade has convinced me ' more than any other that buying and modifying a 1200
is a fantastic way of getting a slice of high end vinyl replay ' and it vindicates Marco's boundless enthusiasm for going this route .

I still want to change the arm ' what i said in an earlier post was rather harsh ' its not that bad , lets face it the 1200 is a turntable with a free get you going arm ' thrown in .

I look forward to reading what the other AOS members have to say about their new bearings ' but also anyone who has bought the Timestep , why not post some thoughts , be good to share :).