View Full Version : SRA and the search for holy grail otherwise known as 92°!
I usually set my tonearm level by using a piece of graph paper placed against the edge of my tonearm, sighted through this brings good results, but i wanted to see if it got me any where near the magical 92° that experts such as Michael Fremer tell us is where the magic kicks in!
Ive done this before and if you use one you'll know its a right pain in the arse to set up,small movements with the scope are huge on the monitor and it takes a while to get used to it.
The tracks i used for reference are Pink Floyds 'comfortably numb' and the orchestral bit that leads into it,there's lots going on with these tracks so i reckoned they'd be good and i know them well.
After about 15 minutes and a can of red bull i was ready to capture an image and check the angle,i got 94° which meant i had to lower the tonearm at the back,a nightmare as each time it was lowered i had to re set up the microscope,twice i did this and another can of red bull bit the dust!
As you can see from the below image i finally i got 92°:champagne:
https://c2.staticflickr.com/1/666/31075300273_22d2b8aec4_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/Pm238c)[/url] (https://flic.kr/p/Pm238c),
Time for some listening,
the tracks sounded very good before but what always bugged me was the sound of the cymbals,they were there,just not defined well,the cymbal crashes at the end of 'comfortably numb' always seemed a bit pishy and seemed to blend into one another,slightly out of focus you could say.The orchestral bit before 'numb' had the various instruments seemingly bleeding into one another,but on the whole both tracks sounded good.
Setting the SRA to 92° has firstly reduced clicks and pops on the record and more importantly improved all the above,instruments are clearly more defined,it has moved the sound stage forward,cymbals are more realistic and i can hear them roll off where as before they just died quickly.
The over all sound is,to my ears reduced in the treble/hf but it does tell me i have an in built bias to more treble which when critically listened to is false.
The tweaks i have done have made everything sound more natural and real and well worth the time and trouble to achieve.I shall reward myself with another can of red bull!:)
you can read more info on doing what i did here, [url]http://www.analogplanet.com/content/how-use-usb-digital-microscope-set-92-degree-stylus-rake-angle-sra#qIxQbiS1HSDfPjFv.97
RobbieGong
26-12-2016, 11:48
Well done Jamie. You're a better man than me.
I always just dial in, works for me every time so good on you.
More Red Bull will mean you wont sleep, meaning up all night listening to tunes and the results of your fine tuning - Happy days :lol:
After about 15 minutes and a can of red bull i was ready to capture an image and check the angle,i got 94° which meant i had to lower the tonearm at the back,a nightmare as each time it was lowered i had to re set up the microscope,twice i did this and another can of red bull bit the dust!
Last time I've had Red Bull I got myself speeding ticket , since then Red Bull in my case is a NO, but I understand how frustrating setting microscope is , I do exactly the same thing it makes you feel better doesn't it.
cheers rob,it just gets you to a good starting place thats all,final tweaking is done by ear with small counter weight movements,ive gone from the 2 grams recommended by ortofon to 2.15g,weight range is 1.8-2.2 g so im up the top end what ever that means lol
I understand how frustrating setting microscope is , I do exactly the same thing it makes you feel better doesn't it.
for me it removes the sometimes dangerous thought of,'whats it like if i do...' the point for me is i know its set right,until i put a difference thickness record on of course...oh so many variables!!
cheers rob,it just gets you to a good starting place thats all,final tweaking is done by ear with small counter weight movements,ive gone from the 2 grams recommended by ortofon to 2.15g,weight range is 1.8-2.2 g so im up the top end what ever that means lol
I tend to track close to the maximum VTF advised by manufacturer , less record wear .
What I find to affect sound most is azimuth but its a bugger to check with microscope and cross talk measurement not always sounds best as channel output might be bit different due to manufacturing tolerances.
for me it removes the sometimes dangerous thought of,'whats it like if i do...' the point for me is i know its set right,until i put a difference thickness record on of course...oh so many variables!!
I wouldn't worry much about record thickness , approx. 4mm change in arm height results in 1 degree SRA (9" arm).
I set my stylus to roughly 91.6 degrees , don't forget while measuring angle parallax error comes to play as well.
Ammonite Audio
26-12-2016, 13:01
for me it removes the sometimes dangerous thought of,'whats it like if i do...' the point for me is i know its set right,until i put a difference thickness record on of course...oh so many variables!!
Which micoscope do you use? I'm after one that has the necessary measurement sofware and works properly wih Windows 10. Cheapo ones from eBay seem to be a waste of time and money.
this is what i use and works on my windows 10 pc
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/50-500X-USB-Microscope-8-LED-Digital-Endoscope-Magnifier-Camera-Black-New-Stock-/191951582385?hash=item2cb134b4b1:g:ECkAAOSwnHZYRTo X
Ammonite Audio
26-12-2016, 14:48
That's interesting to know since the listing states specifically that it's not compatible with Windows 8, let alone 10.
its the same as my one,i tried finding one from my original seller but they dont have any.
Cycleallday
26-12-2016, 16:05
That's interesting to know since the listing states specifically that it's not compatible with Windows 8, let alone 10.
I just bought a similar device and I believe the 'compatibilty' relates to the use of the picture software supplied with it. The scope seems to be seen as a pnp webcam by the PC and most image software will see the scope and show the pictures. I just plugged it straight into a generic laptop running Linux Mint and the VLC Media Player I use picked up the camera input and let me take stills with no problem. I think the supplied software maybe lets you control the camera remotely and do some more fancy configuration where I have to manually set the magnification etc. You need plentry of patience and a steady hand to use/master these things - after a cuple of cans of red Bull mine would be flying across the room !
Mel
lol just when i had it right,it looks like i will be doing it all again tomoorow as ive just bought a 2m black:doh::lol:
RobbieGong
26-12-2016, 17:36
lol just when i had it right,it looks like i will be doing it all again tomoorow as ive just bought a 2m black:doh::lol:
Nice move Jamie especially as you're a man who seems to understand the importance of proper set up - Fabulous cart.
Wait til you start going through your collection once you've nailed it - you wont be going to bed on a night :lol:
cheers rob,no red bull this time,from yours and other posts its a bit tricky to set up right but i will give it my best shot over a few days,it will be interesting to compare to the mc25 which i rate as the same if not slightly better than a nagaoka mp-500.
If you get the 2M black set up bang on you won't be disappointed.
I will be installing a new stylus in mine over the next couple of days. Not sure if it will affect the VTA being new? I expect the suspension must have moved a bit since I have had mine going for the last 3 years. Will be interesting to hear the difference between a 1800 hr stylus and brand new although it will probably need 50 hours on it to break in.
lol just when i had it right,it looks like i will be doing it all again tomoorow as ive just bought a 2m black:doh::lol:
Nice one Jamie , I'm certain you'll nail it , patience , patience and once again patience .
I hope you'll enjoy it
Cycleallday
26-12-2016, 19:17
lol just when i had it right,it looks like i will be doing it all again tomoorow as ive just bought a 2m black:doh::lol:
Don't forget to document all your setup actions - I bought also bought a 2M Black and now need to fit it. I like your use of the scope and would like to try it. A couple of questions:
1. Have you removed the clear plastic shroud from the front of the scope to allow the lens to get closer to the object and aid focusing?
2. About what magnification are you using?
3. About how far away from the cartridge is the front of your scope?
Mel
paulf-2007
26-12-2016, 19:36
Red bull gives you wings? Don't get in a flap mate. Ok too many Christmas cracker jokes. Maybe some vodka with the red bull but don't over do it, I was working away and me and a mate went clubbing, jugs of red bull and vodka at £18 a jug....was a while back, worst hangover ever.
Don't forget to document all your setup actions - I bought also bought a 2M Black and now need to fit it. I like your use of the scope and would like to try it. A couple of questions:
1. Have you removed the clear plastic shroud from the front of the scope to allow the lens to get closer to the object and aid focusing?
2. About what magnification are you using?
3. About how far away from the cartridge is the front of your scope?
Mel
Yes for sure,
In answer to your questions
1. Yes I did remove it,
2. I've not got a clue,I just got the scope as close as the focus would allow,
3.i would gues at about 10mm
Hope that helps ��
Red bull gives you wings? Don't get in a flap mate. Ok too many Christmas cracker jokes. Maybe some vodka with the red bull but don't over do it, I was working away and me and a mate went clubbing, jugs of red bull and vodka at £18 a jug....was a while back, worst hangover ever.
Sounds awful,the thought of a hangover these days is enough to stop me drinking in the first place,I used to drink 2 cans of red bull a day plus coffee till I had palpitations and trouble breathing, after blood tests the dr told me I had a high potassium level and to stop the red bull etc,I have and sugar and felt great after 4 days, I was having a cheeky can just to remind myself just how bad it is pmsl!!!
dunno how folk can drink that stuff. :) Find it revolting tbh. Real coffee on other hand is acceptable. good vodka by itself is good too, but it has to be really good these days
alcarmichael
26-12-2016, 22:00
Would love to have a go at this. It doesn't appear though that the scope used here is compatible with a Mac. Can anyone recommend a similar scope which is indeed Mac compatible?
Cycleallday
27-12-2016, 10:31
Would love to have a go at this. It doesn't appear though that the scope used here is compatible with a Mac. Can anyone recommend a similar scope which is indeed Mac compatible?
I mentioned in an earlier post that in my experience these so called USB microscopes are really just webcams and are seen by the operating systems I use as pnp USB devices.
I knew the one I have (which looks just like the one used here and like most of the ones for sale on eBay at around £10) works on Windows with the (supplied) so called 'driver' and with Linux without any driver.
Well in response to your question I just plugged it into my MacBook Pro and it works there as well with no drivers or system configuration needed.
All I did on the Mac was to select the standard OSx PhotoBooth program, select Camera from the top program bar options bar then select 'USB camera' instead of the Built-in iSight camera - Bingo it works :D
On Windows the supplied driver only appears to be a simple photo/video capture program with some image manipulation much like Photo Booth. No doubt other Mac/Windows/Linux image capture programs can also be used.
Mel
walpurgis
27-12-2016, 10:41
My USB microscope displays images well enough, but the software was being difficult about saving them to file for some reason. I got around that by saving the images as screenshots. Works for me.
I do any tweaking of the saved images with FastStone Image Viewer. It's free, comprehensive enough and works well.
i use solid edge software to draw the angle on the photo,its free.
just got back with the 2m black so the microscopes out again!
i use solid edge software to draw the angle on the photo,its free.
just got back with the 2m black so the microscopes out again!
How are you getting on with your new cartridge ?
farflungstar
27-12-2016, 20:00
This fascinates and drives me nuts. Right now my SRA is off and it's my own fault. I've been very very happy with the sound of my Allearts for months now but for some reason decided that the arm was too high at the pivot and so dropped it about 5mm - stupid. The sound is not as focused as before and although I've raised the arm I can't seem to find that magical place. I know I will eventually, but it's a ball ache - for this reason I'm thinking of changing to an arm with easily adjusted VTA, a triplanar maybe - even though I love my wooden Elementum. I know about the business card trick but I want repeatable accuracy. Finding that sweet spot is essential to getting the most from your cart, especially those picky carts like the Allearts which must be at an exact vta, SRA and azimuth to be at their best - with no leeway.
Adey
Edit. Bugger just when I make my mind up someone snaps up the triplanar on fleabay - serves me right for dithering.
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Cycleallday
27-12-2016, 21:52
How about an Audio Mods Rega based arm with that micrometer adjuster - should get it spot on with that !
well 4 hrs solid and i think im stopping here.some more tweaking of the counter weight tomorrow,the 2m black sounds very good indeed,better than my mc-25 but that could be down to the new diamond.
https://c3.staticflickr.com/1/459/31081139994_e41e34a4ac_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/PmwY53)2mb (https://flic.kr/p/PmwY53) by [/url].
[url=https://flic.kr/p/Q4Q9FQ]https://c7.staticflickr.com/1/269/31548468950_c6c80eaf37_z.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/145822004@N02/)IMG_1089 (https://flic.kr/p/Q4Q9FQ) by jamie creighton (https://www.flickr.com/photos/145822004@N02/), on Flickr
with that setting the cartridge/tonearm is dead level as recommended by ortofon,what are your 2m black settings gents,ive set my weight to 1.6g.
Mine is set to 1.7 and the vta is set with the arm very slightly down at the pivot end. I did set it slightly lower but the sound became a little " reedy " and thin, raising it 3mm seemed sweet. It is about 5mm down from level.
walpurgis
28-12-2016, 09:44
This is all very well, but assumes that the original cutting head angles were spot on at the time the record was mastered. I bet there were discrepancies.
I set my 2M black at 1.65-1.7g VTF. With regards to VTA I do this by ear but it is always with the tonearm below parallel, dropped at the back end and by quite a bit.
The 2M never sounds correct at parallel and as such I find VTA adjustment critical for set up on any turntable. My VPI has excellent VTA adjustment so no problem.
Azimuth also critical with the 2M. I find anything other than spot on will result in less stable and wide soundstage and sibilance issues.
No wonder lots of folks get exasperated with the 2M but once you nail it it is a beauty and very rewarding.
This is all very well, but assumes that the original cutting head angles were spot on at the time the record was mastered. I bet there were discrepancies.
Cutting head angle has been constantly changing over the years ,
15° - 60's
20° - 70's
and finally 22° .
I can hear more difference getting azimuth spot on than SRA , obviously is worth checking how stylus has been manufactured , I have Clearaudio Concept MM cart and to be above 90° I need to keep arm few milimeters above parallel .
RobbieGong
28-12-2016, 10:49
I set my 2M black at 1.65-1.7g VTF. With regards to VTA I do this by ear but it is always with the tonearm below parallel, dropped at the back end and by quite a bit.
The 2M never sounds correct at parallel and as such I find VTA adjustment critical for set up on any turntable. My VPI has excellent VTA adjustment so no problem.
Azimuth also critical with the 2M. I find anything other than spot on will result in less stable and wide soundstage and sibilance issues.
No wonder lots of folks get exasperated with the 2M but once you nail it it is a beauty and very rewarding.
+1 all day long in my experience too.
After all usual parameters have been set, very careful vta adjust by ear.
I've said this from way back, that the 2MB is very sensitive to vta adjust / the angle of its stylus in the groove.
I remember reading Ortofon recommending a system / deck with easy vta adjust for the 2MB, obviously they knew why.
That 'spot' lies somewhere within a slightly negative rake for the 2MB. Found the same with the Shibata Quintet Black too.
Ammonite Audio
28-12-2016, 10:53
This is all very well, but assumes that the original cutting head angles were spot on at the time the record was mastered. I bet there were discrepancies.
There were and are differences, of course, but I reckon that this method of setting SRA gets you to an optimum compromise setup, more quickly and reliably than other methods. You can get obsessive and faff around with different settings for different LPs, but that rather gets in the way of the music.
One thing that this thread confirms is that Ortofon can be relied on to set their styli consistently as per their stated specs. That's certainly not true with all manufacturers and for re-tipped cartridges.
RobbieGong
28-12-2016, 10:59
There were and are differences, of course, but I reckon that this method of setting SRA gets you to an optimum compromise setup, more quickly and reliably than other methods. You can get obsessive and faff around with different settings for different LPs, but that rather gets in the way of the music.
One thing that this thread confirms is that Ortofon can be relied on to set their styli consistently as per their stated specs. That's certainly not true with all manufacturers and for re-tipped cartridges.
Absolutely Hugo.
I always set my 2MB and now QB by the same record I am familiar with which is of a medium thickness.
Once I've nailed it, everything of whatever thickness sounds right.
This is all very well, but assumes that the original cutting head angles were spot on at the time the record was mastered. I bet there were discrepancies.
yep and i can assume your ears are different mine,you gotta start somewhere mate,so many variables,tonearm,record thickness,eyes,mood,etc its a long list! as i stated in the orignal post it gets you in the ball park accurately,the rest is done by ear.
thanks for all the tips guys,seconds away round 2 for me, :cool:
British high fidelity
31-12-2016, 01:32
Morning Guys can you look at the photo do you think the rake angle is ok http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161231/c66f29c0732efd05978ffcb2b7dccd19.jpg
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British high fidelity
31-12-2016, 01:36
A better close up
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161231/cbb7e85253bbf17cf38f5791d2e7eb53.jpg
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Deano , you need to place camera at the right angle to the stylus , your camera seems to be bit behind/above stylus and it looks like azimuth is way out and rake angle below 90°
Usually top of the cartridge parallel to record surface is a good place to start with , I find clear ruler to be quite helpful
British high fidelity
31-12-2016, 06:17
Ok i understand problem is im taking the pics with a smartphone camera and trying to stabalize and get close if pretty much impossible maybe i need to get a usb microscope
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British high fidelity
31-12-2016, 06:18
i will try again later to get a level picture, thanks for the advice Mac
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Hi Deano
If you are using the Io in your avatar, then I found the one I had to be one of the least fussy cartridges I've ever owned .... very easy to tune by ear ime. Mine worked perfectly with the arm parallel and at 2grams.
At the other extreme, the 2M Black drove me nuts, to the point of abandoning the wretched thing. It really was the most frustrating cartridge I've ever owned.
British high fidelity
31-12-2016, 12:09
unfortunately the cartridge is a clearaudio maestro and its not to difficult as its on an sme arm but i need a better way of viewing the alignment details as by just eyes its near impossible
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RobbieGong
31-12-2016, 12:18
Hi Deano
If you are using the Io in your avatar, then I found the one I had to be one of the least fussy cartridges I've ever owned .... very easy to tune by ear ime. Mine worked perfectly with the arm parallel and at 2grams.
At the other extreme, the 2M Black drove me nuts, to the point of abandoning the wretched thing. It really was the most frustrating cartridge I've ever owned.
:lol: Been there too many times and frustration at times is putting it mildly :steam: BUT !, once nailed - JOY in caps !!! :D
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