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flatpopely
15-12-2009, 11:00
My system:-

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w258/Andrew_Popely/Hi%20Fi/EPOS%20ES14/Rebuild/DSC_4031.jpg

Internals of my modified NAIM NAC72:-

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w258/Andrew_Popely/Hi%20Fi/72%20TR/DSC_2145.jpg

Power supply for above:-

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w258/Andrew_Popely/Hi%20Fi/Quad%20PSU/DSC_3487.jpg

Power supply for Prefix K:-
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w258/Andrew_Popely/Hi%20Fi/Prefix%20K/DSC_3599.jpg

The ZAP250:-

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w258/Andrew_Popely/Hi%20Fi/ZAP250/094.jpg

The RubiKon:-

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w258/Andrew_Popely/Hi%20Fi/RubiKon/DSC_4080.jpg

chris@panteg
15-12-2009, 11:07
Hi Andrew

A very nice set up ' your Rubikon is very interesting and a brave venture .

What made you change from the Sara's to the Epos '

flatpopely
15-12-2009, 11:15
Mods.

First request, sorry.

Can you chamge the thread title to 'Flatpopely system pics' and not 'Flapopely' with no 't'.

Thanks

Andrew

EDIT: just noticed you can DIY

The Grand Wazoo
15-12-2009, 12:30
Can you chamge the thread title to 'Flatpopely system pics' and not 'Flapopely' with no 't'.



hehehe - I thought it said Flap Openly......

Nice photos by the way!

DSJR
15-12-2009, 12:47
My GOD Andrew, WHERE are the Sara's??????

Don't tell me you've "upgraded" to ES14's.... Now be a good boy and put the port bungs in sideways or fully as designed by Robin Marshall..

If the Es14's are keepers I think you'd be ready for a good valve amp to drive them. They take on a whole new perspective driven this way - trust me, I've done it and it's true.....

P.S. if the CD transport is an Arcam one, it sounds better sandwiched between two 5/8" slabs of slate or granite attached with blac-tac. The extra weight really did seem to help this transport I found.......

Kris
15-12-2009, 12:51
I love your rewiring. VERY neat and tidy.

I'm envious. I really wish I knew one end of a capacitor from the other end of a resister.

REM
15-12-2009, 13:32
Hi FP

LP12/Naim/Epos-----80's alert/80's alert----Warning Mullet Imminent-----:stalks:

Seriously, nice looking system, takes me back....:)

flatpopely
15-12-2009, 13:38
Hi FP

LP12/Naim/Epos-----80's alert/80's alert----Warning Mullet Imminent-----:stalks:

Seriously, nice looking system, takes me back....:)

Could take some pics with 'Mr Mr' on the deck :lolsign:

Themis
15-12-2009, 13:49
Nice system Andrew. :)

Marco
15-12-2009, 14:27
Hi Dave,


If the Es14's are keepers I think you'd be ready for a good valve amp to drive them...


*COUGH*! Not that I'm disagreeing in principal, but how is Andrew going to integrate one properly into his existing set up?

Nope, much as you know I love valves, I wouldn't put a valve amp anywhere near Andrew's system, unless he wants to scrap the lot and start again. Somehow I doubt that's liable to happen anytime soon ;)

Marco.

Rare Bird
15-12-2009, 15:30
P.S. if the CD transport is an Arcam one, it sounds better sandwiched between two 5/8" slabs of slate or granite attached with blac-tac. The extra weight really did seem to help this transport I found.......

Your right Dave the last three CDP i had before the Micromega & Sony were Arcam 'Diva' a bit lightweight tin canish wernt they.

Steve Toy
15-12-2009, 16:09
If the Es14's are keepers I think you'd be ready for a good valve amp to drive them. They take on a whole new perspective driven this way - trust me, I've done it and it's true.....

A valve amp would drive them nicely unlike the Saras that I described in another thread as the bitch down the road needing to be hectored by a beefy solid state amp. Saras are nice but they need ss amps to handle their impedance dips.

Marco, I think you are probably right re. the character of Andrew's system. I imagine it drops into the it aint broken so why fix it? category. However, Hamish was in a very similar boat and look what we did to him? :eyebrows: All it took was a pre/power combo by Anthony slotted in just to see what would happen and the 82/Hi/180 soon went west :eek:

Marco
15-12-2009, 16:22
Marco, I think you are probably right re. the character of Andrew's system. I imagine it drops into the it aint broken so why fix it? category.


That's exactly how I see it, Steve. Andrew's love of the way his system plays music is obvious, as is his current satisfaction with it and lack of desire to fiddle. That's a good place for your head to be 'at' with hi-fi, trust me ;)

Whilst you're right regarding your observations with the 82/Hi/180, Hamish's situation was a little different in that he genuinely wanted to try something different (valves). I'm not sure that Andrew would be similarly inclined to do so at this moment in time...

However, he can correct me if I'm wrong :)

Marco.

flatpopely
15-12-2009, 16:26
Hi Marco.

Yes I'm in no rush to change at the moment. The change from Saras to ES14s made a huge improvment and TBH I'm just happy listening to music now.

Andrew

Spectral Morn
15-12-2009, 16:59
Hi Marco.

Yes I'm in no rush to change at the moment. The change from Saras to ES14s made a huge improvment and TBH I'm just happy listening to music now.

Andrew


Thats a good place to be, happy and content with your set up....but open minded to future possibilities.


Regards D S D L

DSJR
15-12-2009, 17:14
See Andrew, I was decades ahead of you all along :D

Something HiFi Dave and I were discussing recently, we've been there and done it to and with, all these eighties relics at the time and the two of us had the priviledge of knowing Robin Marshall rather well at the time, myself from the KJ/Audiomaster days.

The ES14's aren't perfect by any means, but they communicated the musical message so well IMO. I was cheekily suggesting that Andrew ditched ALL his SS amp system and tried valves from scratch, as the ES14's sound so well with them (that raw tweeter is tamed so well) ..

By the way Marco, that turntable might look like the Scottish fruitbox, but I don't think it's sounded like one for many a month. An EsCo'd Troika also sounds rather brighter and "cleaner" than the Japanese vital tipped original.

Andrew, the one thing you'll have to try is a fully tricked out Techie with Jelco arm ;)

flatpopely
15-12-2009, 17:48
Andrew, the one thing you'll have to try is a fully tricked out Techie with Jelco arm ;)

That is highly unlikely!

DSJR
15-12-2009, 18:15
Keep an open mind as you lot on PFM shouted at me to do................... ;)

Spectral Morn
15-12-2009, 18:37
Thats a good place to be, happy and content with your set up....but open minded to future possibilities.


Regards D S D L



Typed too soon perhaps.....;)

Only joking of course, I am still to hear a Technics myself, so I am quite happy with my Oracle Delphi Mk4 or SME Model 20....but never say never. A Technics (fully specked one [like Marco's], not stock) might be as good or better. Some day I hope to get the opportunity to see....if thats the case or not.

Having set a LP12 up (but not the way Linn suggests) I quite liked it, and someone who hates Linns with a passion said it was the best they had ever heard....so I can imagine circumstances and set up allowing some peoples anti-Linn attitudes/experiences to be removed or reduced.

Anyway synergy is where it is at, and while I am not anywhere near as in the know about your system Andrew, as Marco is, I can appreciate from the photos how well set up it looks + all your mods etc.

So looking very nice indeed.


Regards D S D L

Marco
15-12-2009, 19:02
That is highly unlikely!

:lol: :lol:

Andrew, I suspect that I'd rather enjoy listening to your particular LP12, as it ticks the right boxes for me (as does your system as a whole) - and I've also listened to some of your needle drops on pfm, which I thought were excellent...

If you're coming to next year's pie show at Scalford Hall, then do pop by our room for a listen to my 'pimped DJ deck'. I'd value your opinion :)

Marco.

flatpopely
15-12-2009, 20:25
:lol: :lol:

Andrew, I suspect that I'd rather enjoy listening to your particular LP12, as it ticks the right boxes for me (as does your system as a whole) - and I've also listened to some of your needle drops on pfm, which I thought were excellent...

If you're coming to next year's pie show at Scalford Hall, then do pop by our room for a listen to my 'pimped DJ deck'. I'd value your opinion :)

Marco.

Hi Marco.

I'll pop by. My system will be there so have a listen.

I used to install 1210s for a living................but never heard a pimped version. I thought they always sounded 'solid', in a good way.

Marco
15-12-2009, 21:27
That's exactly how it sounds, Andrew.

However, with the right arm and cartridge (together with improved PSU) you can also tune it to 'boogie' like a Linn and sound, IMO, just as addictively rhythmic and 'musical' - albeit the presentation is drier and tighter, probably a little more so than even your Radikal'd LP12, but the overall presentation is very 'fluid', 'organic' and emotionally involving in a musical sense...

Just like you've put lots of thought into how your deck performs 'holistically', in terms of the contribution of its constituent parts, so have I done with my SL-1210 :)

Marco.

flatpopely
15-12-2009, 23:12
I look forward to hearing the uber 1210!

Andrew

Steve Toy
16-12-2009, 01:46
It's good, very good indeed. It does all the groove thing you'll enjoy from your fettled Linn and it does a few other tricks like inky blackness, instruments leaping from nowhere without being 25 feet tall, texture, tonal richness and back to the flat earth; great timing and pitch separation between notes.

MartinT
16-12-2009, 07:27
However, with the right arm and cartridge (together with improved PSU) you can also tune it to 'boogie' like a Linn and sound, IMO, just as addictively rhythmic and 'musical'

Marco - sorry to slightly hijack the thread - do you find that the SL-1210 is so tonally neutral that it highlights the differences between cartridges more than most decks? I am definitely finding this the case. The 1210 seems to make itself into a platform for the cartridge to sing its own character to its fullest extent.

For instance, the Denon DL-160 permeates the music with rhythm and a must-listen-more factor that I cannot put my finger on but is infectious. The AT33PTG is much more 'hi-fi' in every sense - deeper bass, lovely extended treble, transparent midrange, but lacks something that the Denon puts into the music. I can hear these differences so clearly on the 1210 and wish that I could somehow combine the best of both.

flatpopely
16-12-2009, 08:38
tricks like inky blackness, instruments leaping from nowhere without being 25 feet tall, texture, tonal richness and back to the flat earth; great timing and pitch separation between notes.

Steve.

This is what I could have written about the improvements the Radikal made to the LP12.

One thing that I am sure you know is that a fettled 1210, I suspect, is a lot less than a fettled LP12. Mine is at about £10k at the moment. Luckily I have brought it up to modern spec slowly, a cirkus kit here, a new plinth and top plate there. Its all what makes owning an LP12 great.

ESC just phoned me and my reserve Troika is ready, thats another £280 :eek:
But it does make the Troika into something rather special.

Andrew

Marco
16-12-2009, 10:09
Nice one, Andrew - much appreciated :)

Hi Martin,


Marco - sorry to slightly hijack the thread - do you find that the SL-1210 is so tonally neutral that it highlights the differences between cartridges more than most decks? I am definitely finding this the case. The 1210 seems to make itself into a platform for the cartridge to sing its own character to its fullest extent.


That's exactly what I'm finding, and what I've found (and said) from the beginning. Subjectively, the motor unit itself appears to have little coloration (particularly when fed by a high quality off-board PSU, such as the Time-Step), so one is left with as neutral a platform as possible from which to judge the sonic (and musical) effect of the partnering arm and cartridge.

It's exactly what most people would want from a turntable...Of course one has to suitably modify it before its true (substantial) potential is realised, as it's a relatively uninspiring listen as standard...


For instance, the Denon DL-160 permeates the music with rhythm and a must-listen-more factor that I cannot put my finger on but is infectious. The AT33PTG is much more 'hi-fi' in every sense - deeper bass, lovely extended treble, transparent midrange, but lacks something that the Denon puts into the music. I can hear these differences so clearly on the 1210 and wish that I could somehow combine the best of both.


LOL... You've just described, in a nutshell, the intrinsic presentational differences between Denon and AT MCs! I completely concur with your observations, and this is precisely why I love the DL-103SA (when partnered and set-up correctly), as it does 98% of the 'hi-fi' things the AT-33PTG (or OC-9) does, but also gives all the 'magic' you've referred to above with Denons.

The 'romance'/warmth of tone side of things is what the 'high-mass'/low-compliance (spherical stylus) route excels at. When performing optimally, with this method you get the vast majority of the 'hi-fi niceties' provided by your (highly capable) arm/cartridge combo, but underpinning it, in a musical sense, is a beguiling, infectious, addictiveness which I feel is missing from the 'medium-mass'/medium compliance (elliptical or fine-line stylus) route. Also, IME, with the route I've chosen, you get bass which has serious authority (and I mean serious!). It is also extremely rhythmic and tuneful.

Furthermore in isolation, the 103SA, set-up the way I have it, produces much better bass than any AT cartridge I've heard. It's basically the Alnico magnet effect. You'll be able to get a handle on this properly when I visit and bring my deck down for comparison in the New Year :)

Incidentally, Dave could be right - a good Decca might well give you the best of both worlds, although I suspect that ultimately it may miss out on some of the finest filigree detail which the AT-33PTG teases out the grooves with effortless and considerable aplomb. One always has to choose one's compromises, as in hi-fi there's no such thing as a 'free lunch'!

Marco.

P.S If you wish to discuss this in more detail I will move the relevant posts to a separate thread, as I don't want to scribble all over Andrew's system pics thread with way off-topic stuff.

DSJR
16-12-2009, 22:24
DECCA'S RULE!!!!!

If you've never owned one and set one up to sound great, you haven't lived!!! When working properly (much easier these days), there is very little on the vinyl market that comes close IMO.

Oh, and by the way, both Max Townshend and I had some decent r-r master copies with which to compare. The Decca's once fettled are the closest you're going to get to that acetate-cutting session and it's thrilling.....

flatpopely
16-12-2009, 22:26
Problem with DECCAs is that they re-cut the vinyl.............

DSJR
16-12-2009, 22:33
Proper ones don't and those have VDH or Microscanner or similar tips on them are better than most other cartridges IMO.

I've been playing loads of vinyl recently and many/most of these were regularly played on my Decca/Mentor combination. No problems at all, unlike your Tom Robinson LP, which sounds more than a little tired I reckon :lol:

flatpopely
16-12-2009, 22:37
Steady on! I bought that s/h.

DSJR
16-12-2009, 22:40
S'alright Andrew, you made me get the album anyway...:)

I was suspicious of this Decca rumour, started by a duff one being "reviewed" in HiFi Choice twenty years or so ago. The current models (or well re-built old ones) seem to be extremely well behaved in the right (usually uni-pivot) arm and are better made than ever I understand...

Clive
17-12-2009, 13:31
Problem with DECCAs is that they re-cut the vinyl.............
I'm not sure whether this is a myth or something that actually happened in the early years. I've gone from a Super Gold to Jubilee and recently scaling the heights of the Reference (Paratrace stylus). No sign whatsoever of resonance or damage to records. Records have to be clean....really clean....as there's no floppy cantilever to absorb the bumps. Clean records are no bad thing anyway.

flatpopely
12-01-2010, 17:51
Some more pics of the MKI (development RubiKon). MKIII is a little different in form. The armboard is very different though. Still looks the same from the top though.

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w258/Andrew_Popely/Hi%20Fi/RubiKon/DSC_4065.jpg

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w258/Andrew_Popely/Hi%20Fi/RubiKon/DSC_4068.jpg

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w258/Andrew_Popely/Hi%20Fi/RubiKon/DSC_4084-1.jpg

bigmoog
13-01-2010, 22:49
I'm not sure whether this is a myth or something that actually happened in the early years. I've gone from a Super Gold to Jubilee and recently scaling the heights of the Reference (Paratrace stylus). No sign whatsoever of resonance or damage to records. Records have to be clean....really clean....as there's no floppy cantilever to absorb the bumps. Clean records are no bad thing anyway.



Its a complete myth, normally peddled by axe grinders or TroikaFanbois.....

Dave (DSJR) speaks of a Hifi Choice review...I have this, its a richard black piece, comparing a few cartridges....the decca london 'cuts a new groove as it resonates'....utter twaddle....HFW also dislike deccas and dl103's...zzzzzzz

in my experience a poorly set up cartridge of any design or a worn stylus will cause damage....and a new record will be 'damaged' on first play anyhow


Buy a Decca, as its better :cool:

Barry
13-01-2010, 23:04
Its a complete myth, normally peddled by axe grinders or TroikaFanbois.....

Dave (DSJR) speaks of a Hifi Choice review...I have this, its a richard black piece, comparing a few cartridges....the decca london 'cuts a new groove as it resonates'....utter twaddle....HFW also dislike deccas and dl103's...zzzzzzz

in my experience a poorly set up cartridge of any design or a worn stylus will cause damage....and a new record will be 'damaged' on first play anyhow


Buy a Decca, as its better :cool:

Agreed, BUT the Decca has to be very well set up in the arm. Damping must be used, unipivot or not. The electrical loading used also has an effect on the tracking of Deccas.

Regards

bigmoog
13-01-2010, 23:11
Agreed, BUT the Decca has to be very well set up in the arm. Damping must be used, unipivot or not. The electrical loading used also has an effect on the tracking of Deccas.

Regards


of course.....although I prefer a decca in a non uni...... I have issues with unipivots...they drive me right round the bend:)


I also cryofreeze my cartridges along with my beer:cool:

Clive
14-01-2010, 07:52
Agreed, BUT the Decca has to be very well set up in the arm. Damping must be used, unipivot or not. The electrical loading used also has an effect on the tracking of Deccas.

Regards
No damping required with my Trans-Fi linear tracker. This is the case for Super Gold, Jubilee and Reference (these are the 3 I've used, I currently own 2 of them). It may help that a linear tracker is easy to set up very accurately.

As for loading I do mess about with this between 33k and 47K as well as 110pF and 210pF. These make useful balancing tweaks to the sound. I'm suspecting there is a change in tracking when I do this - actually more the ability to ride over a lump dirt on a record.

DSJR
14-01-2010, 12:45
The NAS unipivot arms have "stabilisers" in them (as did the Stax UA7) and handling of them is a doddle...

bigmoog
14-01-2010, 16:39
The NAS unipivot arms have "stabilisers" in them (as did the Stax UA7) and handling of them is a doddle...

when I first had my NAS Mentor, I ran a space arm, which caused me to go nutty...I also have used: decca international, graham (1st version), audiocraft, hadcock.....and I find all unipivots just a lot of wibblewobble cheapness, they are easy to manufacture and all (in my experience )sound 'vague' 'fat' 'loose', 'airy;)'.....and downright boring (unless its an Aro on a Linn using an asak/asaka/troika/arkiv :lolsign:

gawd I rilly miss using the mentor, should never have retired it :doh:

DSJR
14-01-2010, 17:14
The Mentor arm had a stout headshell, a wide diameter tube (damped inside IIRC) and was a doddle to use with no rock or slopping about. The under-slung counterweight was tweaked a bit to balance the "leaning" on the stabilisers and with tracking weight done at the same time, the setting could be left alone with nothing to go out of adjustment or fall off, as hadcock bits were prone to (how come that scrappy disaster of a tonearm fetches £500+ when the Alphason HR100S eats it alive and STILL costs less when they come up I'll never know...)

So there!!! :ner:

bigmoog
14-01-2010, 17:37
The Mentor arm had a stout headshell, a wide diameter tube (damped inside IIRC) and was a doddle to use with no rock or slopping about. The under-slung counterweight was tweaked a bit to balance the "leaning" on the stabilisers and with tracking weight done at the same time, the setting could be left alone with nothing to go out of adjustment or fall off, as hadcock bits were prone to (how come that scrappy disaster of a tonearm fetches £500+ when the Alphason HR100S eats it alive and STILL costs less when they come up I'll never know...)

So there!!! :ner:

yes, but my space arm/ mentor arm or whatever Tom called it at the time, rang like big ben, was poorly finished (imho), was fiddly to set right....sometimes it sounded ok.....but killed the deccacartridge dynamiks, so I used it with a modified Koetsu*

by thee way I am a proud NAS fanbois, just I find unipivots a little bit over rated :ner:


*modified by using a nagaoka MP11 instead:eyebrows:

DSJR
14-01-2010, 18:27
My Mentor arm wasn't like that and I had dynamics from LP's I've rarely heard before or since. Compared with half decent copy-masters it was very close indeed...

bigmoog
14-01-2010, 18:41
My Mentor arm wasn't like that and I had dynamics from LP's I've rarely heard before or since. Compared with half decent copy-masters it was very close indeed...

yes, dave, but that's because you were using a decca cartridge...which is so superb and superduper it overcomes all weaknesses elsewhere in the system ;)

Themis
14-01-2010, 19:05
:whistle:

Barry
14-01-2010, 23:53
No damping required with my Trans-Fi linear tracker. This is the case for Super Gold, Jubilee and Reference (these are the 3 I've used, I currently own 2 of them). It may help that a linear tracker is easy to set up very accurately.

As for loading I do mess about with this between 33k and 47K as well as 110pF and 210pF. These make useful balancing tweaks to the sound. I'm suspecting there is a change in tracking when I do this - actually more the ability to ride over a lump dirt on a record.

I hadn't considered the use of linear tracking arms for the Decca - but then why not? Is the effective arm mass for lateral stylus movement the same as the dead mass? Are you better able to reconcile the two resonant frequencies? Damping is used to reduce the amplitude at resonance. Is the amplitude at rsonance less in a linearly tracking arm?

Regards

Clive
15-01-2010, 09:22
I hadn't considered the use of linear tracking arms for the Decca - but then why not? Is the effective arm mass for lateral stylus movement the same as the dead mass? Are you better able to reconcile the two resonant frequencies? Damping is used to reduce the amplitude at resonance. Is the amplitude at rsonance less in a linearly tracking arm?

Regards
Hi Barry, this thread is drifting isn't it? What I and others have found is that the resonant behaviour for Ladegard or inverted Ladegard's doesn't seem to follow the normal logic. For lateral res the normal measurements are pointless as the results don't correlate with observed behaviour. The "dead mass" of the arm is around 100g. I've been running Londons for almost a year now and aside from needing super clean records I've not once had any of the cartridges mis-track or suffer a woolly sound. Just for fun I tried the HFN tracking tests once, totally pure sounds. It seems like a match made in heaven.