ZXY Bloom R50 MC Review

[Bigman80]

I have put a lot of thought into this. It might be a load of codswallop but its an honest account of what ive experienced since i fitted the ZYX.

Fitting was a doddle. Set-up was easy too. So far so good.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161221/f580a4dee9e68117fb11cde2015bc75c.jpg

Dropping the needle

Every time i've put a new (to me) cartridge on a turntable, i have sat back and analyzed the first few notes. "Whats the bass like? The treble, Sound-stage" etc.

This time was different. I was stunned. The first notes blew me away. The first few bars of Voodoo Child on Electric ladyland pulled me into the moment. Atmospheric and punchy, and more importantly, i felt like i was there. I was imagining the room he was recording in and could almost see it ! The buzz from the Marshall he was undoubtedly playing through, to the people clapping as he starts playing felt so near to me.

I'm not saying i have a setup capable of fooling you into believing the musician is in the room.

It was a different feeling. An emotive charge that made me shout "Yeah !!!" This produced a funny look from my wife BTW

I was feeling the notes, i was feeling the music and i don't know if you guys get that but i pick up the emotion in a note. Especially when its the blues. Good guitarists purvey feelings through the notes they play. Doubt that ? Play "guess who" by BB King! As Jimi then ventured off into the song i suddenly remembered "there is a new cartridge on the TT!"

That's when i knew how good this cartridge is. I'd forgotten it was there.

That, for me is how it should be. It shouldn't draw attention to itself. Ask any DL103 owner why they love that cart and they all say the same. "it just has a boogie factor" or "it pulls you in" and that's not far off what is going on here. It just has that special something that makes you want to play every single record in your collection and then dance on your own in the front room !!

SO! what does it do well:

Well everything really. It's bass reproduction is held in an vice like grip. Punchy and solid. It'll go low. REALLY low. Its clear too. There are definite "plectrum hitting the string" noises on bass lines, which i haven't heard on many recordings played on vinyl.

Midrange is clear, precise, fluid and just sounds like there is so much space between instruments. I can hear where every musician is sitting on Eric Clapton Unplugged.

Treble is Fantastic. Its never harsh. Instead, its natural. There is a "splash" symbol on Lynrd Skynyrd – "Gimmie three steps" which literally sounded like it came out of my speakers like a rippling wave.

I just keep sitting here shouting "did you hear THAT !!!" at my wife and i think she is sick of me haha.

SO! whats bad:
Well, the stylus guard sucks ass. Its not easy to get the hang of and it terrifies me that i will knock the cantilever.

And that's it. Seriously, this thing has blown me away. I am completely happy with it and will buy another from the ZYX range when i have worn this one out.


If you a thinking of picking one of these up then you should because its fantastic.

[walpurgis]

Nice one Oliver. :thumbsup:

[Bigman80]

Nice one Oliver. [emoji106]
Thanks Geoff. I'm not great at this kind of thing so I hope it reads well !!

[walpurgis]

It still amazes me how ZYX MC's just get out of the way and let the music through. To such an extent that you stop being aware of 'hearing a cartridge' and just enjoy the music. It's like a pair of curtains that were in front of the speakers having been opened.

[Bigman80]

It still amazes me how ZYX MC's just get out of the way and let the music through. To such an extent that you stop being aware of 'hearing a cartridge' and just enjoy the music. It's like a pair of curtains that were in front of the speakers having been opened.
That's spot on.

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[mac72]

Hi Oliver
Did you experiment with loading, I started with 100ohm increased lately to ~235ohm it opens the sound a lot (I'm going to make some loading plugs over Xmas and fine tune it).
What VTF you run it at?
Great write up
Slav

[Firebottle]

An emotive charge that made me shout "Yeah !!!" This produced a funny look from my wife BTW

Superb, I like getting funny looks from the wife, it shows she's paying attention.

Really pleased mate, that Geoff has a lot to answer for :thumbsup:

[Jimbo]

You sold it to me! Another on my list for future consideration.

[Bigman80]

Hi Oliver
Did you experiment with loading, I started with 100ohm increased lately to ~235ohm it opens the sound a lot (I'm going to make some loading plugs over Xmas and fine tune it).
What VTF you run it at?
Great write up
Slav
Hi Slav,

Loadings wise I have four options, unfortunately I have no idea what they mean lol, Firebottle may be able to explain why my amp makes no sense in terms of switchable loadings.

I tried four setting and found what I belive to be a sweet spot but I couldn't tell you what it is.

VTA is slightly raised at the tail end. I've found the ZYX sounded best like that. Again, all done by ear as I have no tools to measure.

It's a very very good experience using g this cartridge.

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[Bigman80]

Superb, I like getting funny looks from the wife, it shows she's paying attention.

Really pleased mate, that Geoff has a lot to answer for [emoji106]
I think I'm Geoff's best customer this month ! I'll see if he does a loyalty card hahaha

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[Bigman80]

You sold it to me! Another on my list for future consideration.
I can't imagine you'd be anything but pleased with one. It's staying in my system for the long term. 👍

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[brian2957]

Nice one Oliver . It's great when a plan comes together :)

[Reffc]

Nice write up of your thoughts Oliver and you've nailed what it does well....it showcases the LP, whilst not drawing attention to any shortcomings with itself!

I've been a big advocate of the R50 for some years, and have always rated it as the best VFM in MC cartridge land that there is. Whilst not exactly cheap, it's not up there in the stratospheric heights with other cartidges weighing in at the cost of an expensive amplifier, and it holds its own surprisingly well against such competition. In fact, I prefer it to its more costly sibling, the R100.

The model line up has changed slightly, with Boron not being justifiably sustainable by many companies now, so ZYX have now changed the design to an all new aluminium cantilever of a differing design. The generator I'm reliably informed, remains the same.

Whatever the changes, one thing's for sure...few MC cartridges at that budget that can do what the R50 Bloom does so well. It's good enough to have you reap the rewards with a top class phonostage too, and presents no bottleneck further up the source.

I hope that you get many years of enjoyment out of it. One tip: It is a light bodied cartridge for its lowish compliance and with most medium mass tonearms, does benefit from a headshell mass of 2 to 3 grammes being added. AT do one for a few pounds or you can make your own (just don't use ferrous metals!). The increased effective mass will benefit tracking and lower distortion whilst improving heft and detail. I'd advise keeping the tracking weight at around 2 to 2.2 grammes and no lighter.

[hifi_dave]

Great write up.

Unfortunately, the R50 Bloom is no longer manufactured. The replacement is the R50 Bloom 3 at £800.

[Reffc]

Great write up.

Unfortunately, the R50 Bloom is no longer manufactured. The replacement is the R50 Bloom 3 at £800.

It is practically the same cartridge using a different cantilever David. There is very little difference between them in terms of the generator and stylus profile and the specs are unsurprisingly almost identical . The costs of the R50 went up prior to the launch of the revised R50 Bloom3 due to the fall of the pound, as with many other cartridges, so it's not quite the hike assumed compared with where the pound was against the dollar pre referendum.

People shouldn't be put off. Even at £800 it still represents something of an audio bargain as anyone who's heard one can attest.

[CageyH]

How do they compare to a Hana SL?

[walpurgis]

How do they compare to a Hana SL?

Never tried a Hana SL, but any MC under £1000 is going to have its work cut out against the R50 Bloom H, including the dearer R100 series ZYX's. The R50 is as good in its own way. The R100 Yatra is a noticeable step up in sound quality, but no more enjoyable in musicality terms.

[Bigman80]

Nice one Oliver . It's great when a plan comes together :)
Thanks Brian. I'm over the moon. Just getting the amp serviced and Alan is going to put me 220ohm loading on one of the switches. See how that goes.

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[Reffc]

How do they compare to a Hana SL?

I've never heard the Hana SL, so can't offer any comment. I can say though that the R50 is the best vfm LOMC that I've ever owned or heard. Geoff has been delighted with his and Oliver obviously identifies with its strengths too.

The only MC's that would tempt me away would be the Transfiguration Phoenix or one of the Miyajima cartridges but they're way above my budget.

[mikeyb]

Arghhh "will you lot behave yourselves" as he rummages down the back of the sofa.....😂

[Bigman80]

Arghhh "will you lot behave yourselves" as he rummages down the back of the sofa.....😂
DO IT !!!! lol. It's a phenomenal little cartridge and not to be sniffed at aesthetically.



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[Bigman80]

I am currently tracking at 1.7g which I know is the lower end of the scale ZYX recommend but it sounds damn good!! I've just had a 220ohm loading added to my amp courtesy of Firebottle

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161222/0ef47615f80e8e8d686093abb78a7e4f.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161222/8e757caa9edc5d22d747ee94b3ca65cb.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161222/070d2d0dd9b9d6bd636f33b62fff891f.jpg

Also had a switch cleaned too !!

I am looking forward to trying that out.

I will at some point add higher level components into my system but for now I'll just enjoy for a while.

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[mikeyb]

DO IT !!!! lol. It's a phenomenal little cartridge and not to be sniffed at aesthetically.



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I should have bought Geoff's one when he offered it to me a while back 😥

Rarely seen second hand and loathe to pay for new.

Patience will have to be the name of the game.

We need to start a cartridge swap club so people can try various models out prior to purchase 🤔

[Bigman80]

I should have bought Geoff's one when he offered it to me a while back 😥

Rarely seen second hand and loathe to pay for new.

Patience will have to be the name of the game.

We need to start a cartridge swap club so people can try various models out prior to purchase 🤔
That's a nice idea. Would people participate ?

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[Bigman80]

I should have bought Geoff's one when he offered it to me a while back 😥

Rarely seen second hand and loathe to pay for new.

Patience will have to be the name of the game.

We need to start a cartridge swap club so people can try various models out prior to purchase 🤔
PS. I bought Geoff's !

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[Bigman80]

Hi Oliver
Did you experiment with loading, I started with 100ohm increased lately to ~235ohm it opens the sound a lot (I'm going to make some loading plugs over Xmas and fine tune it).
What VTF you run it at?
Great write up
Slav
Alan quite generously offered to adjust my loading to 220ohms on the amp.

I am so glad he did. WOW! You are right on the money. The stage is now wide open. Sounds like I've had my ears cleaned. Very revealing. Spacious and alive. Wow. I only had time for one side of an LP but what a side it was!.

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[Bigman80]

It still amazes me how ZYX MC's just get out of the way and let the music through. To such an extent that you stop being aware of 'hearing a cartridge' and just enjoy the music. It's like a pair of curtains that were in front of the speakers having been opened.
At 220ohms those curtains opened again !

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[Bigman80]

Nice one Oliver . It's great when a plan comes together :)
I'm a happy camper.

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[Bigman80]

Nice write up of your thoughts Oliver and you've nailed what it does well....it showcases the LP, whilst not drawing attention to any shortcomings with itself!

I've been a big advocate of the R50 for some years, and have always rated it as the best VFM in MC cartridge land that there is. Whilst not exactly cheap, it's not up there in the stratospheric heights with other cartidges weighing in at the cost of an expensive amplifier, and it holds its own surprisingly well against such competition. In fact, I prefer it to its more costly sibling, the R100.

The model line up has changed slightly, with Boron not being justifiably sustainable by many companies now, so ZYX have now changed the design to an all new aluminium cantilever of a differing design. The generator I'm reliably informed, remains the same.

Whatever the changes, one thing's for sure...few MC cartridges at that budget that can do what the R50 Bloom does so well. It's good enough to have you reap the rewards with a top class phonostage too, and presents no bottleneck further up the source.

I hope that you get many years of enjoyment out of it. One tip: It is a light bodied cartridge for its lowish compliance and with most medium mass tonearms, does benefit from a headshell mass of 2 to 3 grammes being added. AT do one for a few pounds or you can make your own (just don't use ferrous metals!). The increased effective mass will benefit tracking and lower distortion whilst improving heft and detail. I'd advise keeping the tracking weight at around 2 to 2.2 grammes and no lighter.
Thanks, im glad I captured it in a way that makes sense.

Do you have a link to the AT mass things (can't remember what they're called lol)

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[Bigman80]

Look at this on eBay http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/391658003543. 🤑

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[mikeyb]

Look at this on eBay http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/391658003543. 🤑

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Give you £50 for yours to help you upgrade [emoji12]

[Bigman80]

Give you £50 for yours to help you upgrade [emoji12]
Lol I'm not upgrading. Very very happy with what I have.

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[mikeyb]

Lol I'm not upgrading. Very very happy with what I have.

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He he good good, I'm at a turning point with my vinyl setup up, it either has to improve to the sound I'm looking for or its the big sell off and stick to digital only.

[Bigman80]

He he good good, I'm at a turning point with my vinyl setup up, it either has to improve to the sound I'm looking for or its the big sell off and stick to digital only.
Wow, that's drastic. What's missing from your sound ?

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[Reffc]

Do you have a link to the AT mass things (can't remember what they're called lol)


http://www.juno.co.uk/products/technics-headshell-weight/227422-01//?currency=GBP&flt=1&gclid=Cj0KEQiAkO7CBRDeqJ_ahuiPrtEBEiQAbYupJR-ETC22E_uPnJ9ZGD9xEzyOU4PxOacPiYOHhFb-hpIaAivI8P8HAQ

[Bigman80]

http://www.juno.co.uk/products/technics-headshell-weight/227422-01//?currency=GBP&flt=1&gclid=Cj0KEQiAkO7CBRDeqJ_ahuiPrtEBEiQAbYupJR-ETC22E_uPnJ9ZGD9xEzyOU4PxOacPiYOHhFb-hpIaAivI8P8HAQ
Thanks. I'll look into it.

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[topoxforddoc]

Nice review - cracking cartridge. If you want one, try and find the existing R50 Bloom at £500. The new improved Mk3 cartridges have arrived along with the parlous Sterling exchange rate. The R50 Mk3 is now £800. I suspect that all the other japanese products will be going up soon. Denons have already started to go upwards in cost.

[Bigman80]

Nice review - cracking cartridge. If you want one, try and find the existing R50 Bloom at £500. The new improved Mk3 cartridges have arrived along with the parlous Sterling exchange rate. The R50 Mk3 is now £800. I suspect that all the other japanese products will be going up soon. Denons have already started to go upwards in cost.
Thanks !



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[Bigman80]

Still have some for £510 here. Looks like that may be about to become a bargain.

http://www.originlive.com/zyx/moving-coil-zyx-cartridge-r-50-bloom-h/r-50-bloom-h.html

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[Reffc]

That is a stone-cold bargain and probably relates to stock bought some years ago as retail on them just prior to the new range coming out was considerably more than that (ie these won't be fresh stock). You can't buy them at trade prices for that now. There wont be much stock left in the UK though I suspect, so always worth calling first before hitting the "buy-it-now" button on some of these ads.

[Bigman80]

👍

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[mac72]

Try to increase tracking force as well it does improve detail and tightens low frequencies , I find 2.15 gram to work best (when it comes to my cartridge/arm combo) , anything lower than 2 gram makes everything bit loose on the border of mistracking .


Alan quite generously offered to adjust my loading to 220ohms on the amp.

I am so glad he did. WOW! You are right on the money. The stage is now wide open. Sounds like I've had my ears cleaned. Very revealing. Spacious and alive. Wow. I only had time for one side of an LP but what a side it was!.

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[Bigman80]

Try to increase tracking force as well it does improve detail and tightens low frequencies , I find 2.15 gram to work best (when it comes to my cartridge/arm combo) , anything lower than 2 gram makes everything bit loose on the border of mistracking .
Ok, I'm going to apply a 3g blob of blue tack and I'll increase the tracking weight. Bit of experimentation.

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[Bigman80]

Try to increase tracking force as well it does improve detail and tightens low frequencies , I find 2.15 gram to work best (when it comes to my cartridge/arm combo) , anything lower than 2 gram makes everything bit loose on the border of mistracking .
Increased the tracking weight to 2g and it slams !!!! Seriously deep bass and it really extends into the depths of hell!!! Erm ok, that was a bit dramatic but wow. I am completely overwhelmed by how good this thing is.

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[walpurgis]

That's 'cos you went about it the right way. You simply cannot use a ZYX (or any other good MC) into an inadequate phono stage or even worse, a cheap SUT.

[Bigman80]

That's 'cos you went about it the right way. You simply cannot use a ZYX (or any other good MC) into an inadequate phono stage or even worse, a cheap SUT.
Well at the minute I'm using my modified 220ohm MC stage in the Sony. I can't believe how good it sounds. The Fidelity Research is on my shelf 🤔

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[mac72]

Try to dial in VTA now , there is a horizontal line near the bottom of cartridge, keep it parallel to the record surface instead of trying to line up your arm , at 2grams it should bring SRA to 92 degrees (in my case half degree below).If you have azimuth adjustment is worth to try as well , when you get it right it improves channel separation.
Enjoy

Increased the tracking weight to 2g and it slams !!!! Seriously deep bass and it really extends into the depths of hell!!! Erm ok, that was a bit dramatic but wow. I am completely overwhelmed by how good this thing is.

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[Bigman80]

Try to dial in VTA now , there is a horizontal line near the bottom of cartridge, keep it parallel to the record surface instead of trying to line up your arm , at 2grams it should bring SRA to 92 degrees (in my case half degree below).If you have azimuth adjustment is worth to try as well , when you get it right it improves channel separation.
Enjoy
Ok, I'll have a look.

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[Bigman80]

VTA is perfect if judging by the line on the cartridge. A fluke more than judgment and azimuth seems to be rather close to perfect too. I am now tracking at 2g and I think the fine tuning has made a difference. Channel separation is amazing, bass is slamming so much my door is rattling and everything just seems to be working. The 220ohm loading sounds better than any other I've tried too. This cartridge is top class. Pulled out an album I haven't played for about a year and it's so good now. Didn't sound bad before but now it's really good.



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[ianlenco]

I've been using a Zyx R50 Bloom for quite a while now and I agree that it is an excellent cartridge. Previous cartridges include the more expensive Kontrapunkt B and Lyra Lydian beta but I think I prefer the Zyx because it's so unfussy and natural. Totally agree that it needs at least 2gm tracking force and it is sensitive to VTA - not in a bad way but you can tune in a bit more bass or treble if you want though I prefer it flat. Excellent choice Oliver!

[Bigman80]

I've been using a Zyx R50 Bloom for quite a while now and I agree that it is an excellent cartridge. Previous cartridges include the more expensive Kontrapunkt B and Lyra Lydian beta but I think I prefer the Zyx because it's so unfussy and natural. Totally agree that it needs at least 2gm tracking force and it is sensitive to VTA - not in a bad way but you can tune in a bit more bass or treble if you want though I prefer it flat. Excellent choice Oliver!
Thanks Ian,

Ill keep it flat because it sounds right to me. That's an endorsement on its own if it's preferred to more expensive carts.

I've done a lot of swapping of gear recently so I'm really pleased I found this cartridge. I am just going to leave it where it is and enjoy it.

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[RothwellAudio]

The 220ohm loading sounds better than any other I've tried too.

Can I ask what other load impedances you have tried? I ask because I'm of the belief that the load impedance doesn't matter all that much. ZYX's own recommendation is for anything above 100 ohms, and that would be my recommendation too.

[mac72]

Can I ask what other load impedances you have tried? I ask because I'm of the belief that the load impedance doesn't matter all that much. ZYX's own recommendation is for anything above 100 ohms, and that would be my recommendation too.
I have tried 100ohm , 235ohm and 470ohm there is lot of difference between those ,
100 sound flat/dull
470 bass becomes overblown and highs are bit harsh
235 sound just about right , I will try different values once I receive resistors to make some more loading plugs

[Bigman80]

Can I ask what other load impedances you have tried? I ask because I'm of the belief that the load impedance doesn't matter all that much. ZYX's own recommendation is for anything above 100 ohms, and that would be my recommendation too.
The honest answer is ..... I have no idea. I have 100ohm and 220ohm on my amp and two more on my SUT which are labelled as 30ohm and 10ohm but I don't think that relates to loading.

I've tried it on all four options and there was a definite lifting of the veil at 220ohm. 100ohm sounded close to that but sounded a touch suppressed and the 30ohm and 10ohm on the SUT sounded very refined and smooth but not quite as alive. There is a definite difference. I don't understand all the loading gumph so i rely on my ears. They don't lie.

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[Reffc]

Can I ask what other load impedances you have tried? I ask because I'm of the belief that the load impedance doesn't matter all that much. ZYX's own recommendation is for anything above 100 ohms, and that would be my recommendation too.

+1

I have tried everything from 100 to 470 and it makes no discernible difference at all with the ZYX. The quality of the SUT and RIAA/preamplification circuit is of far greater importance imho.

[Bigman80]

+1

I have tried everything from 100 to 470 and it makes no discernible difference at all with the ZYX. The quality of the SUT and RIAA/preamplification circuit is of far greater importance imho.
That's interesting. Some people, like me are convinced and others have had no discernible difference.

I'll retry my options later and take a good deal of time trying to see how they differ.

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[mac72]

+1

I have tried everything from 100 to 470 and it makes no discernible difference at all with the ZYX. The quality of the SUT and RIAA/preamplification circuit is of far greater importance imho.

When you say quality of the SUT what technical/electrical parameters do you have in mind?
I'm not saying you're wrong but I'm bit curious ,
I have built in the past quite few tube amplifiers and used different OT from Lundahl , Sowter , custom made , some chinese made and as long as they were similar specs I couldn't tell one from the other , same applies to interstage transformers.

[ianlenco]

I use 100 ohm and I would say it sounds anything but dull and flat. I've tried higher settings but I'm quite happy with 100 ohm. Each to his own, up to you Oliver to find a setting that suits your ears and equipment.

[mac72]

I use 100 ohm and I would say it sounds anything but dull and flat. I've tried higher settings but I'm quite happy with 100 ohm. Each to his own, up to you Oliver to find a setting that suits your ears and equipment.
Right on the money, some people hear 1mm VTA change some don't , same with loading,VTF, etc...
Dial it the way you like it best.

[Reffc]

When you say quality of the SUT what technical/electrical parameters do you have in mind?
I'm not saying you're wrong but I'm bit curious ,
I have built in the past quite few tube amplifiers and used different OT from Lundahl , Sowter , custom made , some chinese made and as long as they were similar specs I couldn't tell one from the other , same applies to interstage transformers.

There's a world of difference between core materials used between some SUTs, the interleave windings for bandwidth, parasitic capacitance effects and the like. This can make a surprising difference, audibly, between good and poor designs. It is easily audibly discernible. It's no surprise since such effects usually result in an SUT's performance deviating from their design ideal characteristics. I worked on the development of an SUT a few years back, and for such a simple concept, it was surprisingly difficult to have one made which performed as expected. In my case, the core material was saturating rather unexpectedly so had to be redesigned and re-specified. Andrew is the real expert here though so you may be better addressing the same question to Andrew for a more comprehensive answer.

There are worlds of difference between various MM RIAA/gain amplifier designs as I'm sure you're aware being someone with the experience and knowledge to build them, so forgive me, but it seems a rather odd thing to suggest by inference that all SUTs or phono stages should sound the same? Forgive me if that is not what you meant, but it is how it comes across. Even things like the implementation of the power supplies matters, a lot. The proof of the pudding is in things like measured distortion and S/N performance. Designs that measure well in this respect usually sound the best to my ears too.

[mac72]

There's a world of difference between core materials used between some SUTs, the interleave windings for bandwidth, parasitic capacitance effects and the like. This can make a surprising difference, audibly, between good and poor designs. It is easily audibly discernible. It's no surprise since such effects usually result in an SUT's performance deviating from their design ideal characteristics. I worked on the development of an SUT a few years back, and for such a simple concept, it was surprisingly difficult to have one made which performed as expected. In my case, the core material was saturating rather unexpectedly so had to be redesigned and re-specified. Andrew is the real expert here though so you may be better addressing the same question to Andrew for a more comprehensive answer.

There are worlds of difference between various MM RIAA/gain amplifier designs as I'm sure you're aware being someone with the experience and knowledge to build them, so forgive me, but it seems a rather odd thing to suggest by inference that all SUTs or phono stages should sound the same? Forgive me if that is not what you meant, but it is how it comes across. Even things like the implementation of the power supplies matters, a lot. The proof of the pudding is in things like measured distortion and S/N performance. Designs that measure well in this respect usually sound the best to my ears too.

My question was what electrical parameters (measurable at home conditions) would make difference between good/bad SUT .
I never said SUTs sound the same , what I have said is I couldn't tell any difference between Output Transformers as long as they measured fairly close (winding impedance, turns ratio ,freq. response, same UL taps) .
I never tried to built RIAA stage but IMO if PSU is designed well and RIAA curve replicated closely , S/N ratio and distortion at the same level there shouldn't be much difference but they do sound different is it mainly deviation from RIAA ?
When I say measured in home conditions I meant using scope, signal gen. etc... , fairly cheap and obtainable tools.

[Arkless Electronics]

There's a world of difference between core materials used between some SUTs, the interleave windings for bandwidth, parasitic capacitance effects and the like. This can make a surprising difference, audibly, between good and poor designs. It is easily audibly discernible. It's no surprise since such effects usually result in an SUT's performance deviating from their design ideal characteristics. I worked on the development of an SUT a few years back, and for such a simple concept, it was surprisingly difficult to have one made which performed as expected. In my case, the core material was saturating rather unexpectedly so had to be redesigned and re-specified. Andrew is the real expert here though so you may be better addressing the same question to Andrew for a more comprehensive answer.

There are worlds of difference between various MM RIAA/gain amplifier designs as I'm sure you're aware being someone with the experience and knowledge to build them, so forgive me, but it seems a rather odd thing to suggest by inference that all SUTs or phono stages should sound the same? Forgive me if that is not what you meant, but it is how it comes across. Even things like the implementation of the power supplies matters, a lot. The proof of the pudding is in things like measured distortion and S/N performance. Designs that measure well in this respect usually sound the best to my ears too.

I agree completely.

Designing a really good phono stage is no easy task, especially one for MC carts.... When you're dealing with signals of < 0.0005 Volts then everything matters! Off the shelf voltage regulators for example cannot be used to directly power an MC stage as they are too noisy.. They may have only 10 millionths of a Volt of noise (hiss) but that's far too much!
Both head amps and SUT's also need very careful design if matters which would be irrelevant in a line stage are not to completely ruin performance at so much lower a signal level.

[RothwellAudio]

The honest answer is ..... I have no idea. I have 100ohm and 220ohm on my amp and two more on my SUT which are labelled as 30ohm and 10ohm but I don't think that relates to loading.
Is that a selectable 100 ohm/220 ohm option on the same phonostage, or 100 ohms on one phonostage and 220 ohms on another? If it's two different phonostages I don't think it's logical to attribute any difference in sound to the different load impedances when there are so many other variables.
Yes, the "30 ohm" and "10 ohm" labels on the step-up transformers are probably misleading and actually mean something like "suitable for a 30 ohm cartridge" and "suitable for a 10 ohm cartridge" rather than being the actual load impedances presented to the cartridge. Again, with so many variables it's difficult to isolate the effects of the load impedance from everything else.


There's a world of difference between core materials used between some SUTs, the interleave windings for bandwidth, parasitic capacitance effects and the like....
Andrew is the real expert here...
I'm loath to call myself an expert in anything but I agree there are a bewildering number of parameters involved in audio transformers and the core material is one of the most important. Many of the design parameters conflict with each other and improving one will degrade another. For example, some core materials will give you a very high inductance for a given number of turns on the primary, but they will saturate more easily than other materials which don't give you such a high inductance. A high primary inductance is a "good thing" and piling on the turns will give you more, but that will also increase the stray capacitance, which is a "bad thing". Yes, transformers may appear to be trivially simple but and actually fiendishly complex.


My question was what electrical parameters (measurable at home conditions) would make difference between good/bad SUT ...
When I say measured in home conditions I meant using scope, signal gen. etc... , fairly cheap and obtainable tools.
Basically, the LF response is determined by the primary inductance. The HF response is determined by the core material, leakage inductance and stray capacitance.
If you want to test step-up transformers, drive them from a specific source impedance. 10 ohms would be a good figure to represent a wide range of modern cartridges, or you could be more specific if you have a specific cartridge in mind.
Also, load the secondary with the load impedance it is likely to see in actual use, ie 47k in parallel with about 200pF - 300pF.
Simple frequency response sweeps with that set-up can tell you quite a lot.

[Bigman80]

Is that a selectable 100 ohm/220 ohm option on the same phonostage, or 100 ohms on one phonostage and 220 ohms on another? If it's two different phonostages I don't think it's logical to attribute any difference in sound to the different load impedances when there are so many other variables.
Yes, the "30 ohm" and "10 ohm" labels on the step-up transformers are probably misleading and actually mean something like "suitable for a 30 ohm cartridge" and "suitable for a 10 ohm cartridge" rather than being the actual load impedances presented to the cartridge. Again, with so many variables it's difficult to isolate the effects of the load impedance from everything else.


I'm loath to call myself an expert in anything but I agree there are a bewildering number of parameters involved in audio transformers and the core material is one of the most important. Many of the design parameters conflict with each other and improving one will degrade another. For example, some core materials will give you a very high inductance for a given number of turns on the primary, but they will saturate more easily than other materials which don't give you such a high inductance. A high primary inductance is a "good thing" and piling on the turns will give you more, but that will also increase the stray capacitance, which is a "bad thing". Yes, transformers may appear to be trivially simple but and actually fiendishly complex.


Basically, the LF response is determined by the primary inductance. The HF response is determined by the core material, leakage inductance and stray capacitance.
If you want to test step-up transformers, drive them from a specific source impedance. 10 ohms would be a good figure to represent a wide range of modern cartridges, or you could be more specific if you have a specific cartridge in mind.
Also, load the secondary with the load impedance it is likely to see in actual use, ie 47k in parallel with about 200pF - 300pF.
Simple frequency response sweeps with that set-up can tell you quite a lot.
Yes it's switchable on the one component so direct comparison is easy. The 30/10ohm is on the SUT. It's not night and day but to me there is a definite difference. I have pretty good hearing too.

[RothwellAudio]

I have pretty good hearing too.

I wasn't doubting the fact that you hear a difference, just trying to determine the explanation. In the case of the SUT the different impedance is almost certainly due to a different turns ratio, so once again a change in one parameter is accompanied by another change in another parameter. Isolating the effects of the load impedance often isn't easy, though it would seem more straightforward in the case of the 100/220 ohm options you mention.

[Bigman80]

I wasn't doubting the fact that you hear a difference, just trying to determine the explanation. In the case of the SUT the different impedance is almost certainly due to a different turns ratio, so once again a change in one parameter is accompanied by another change in another parameter. Isolating the effects of the load impedance often isn't easy, though it would seem more straightforward in the case of the 100/220 ohm options you mention.
Just to confuse matters, I used the SUT for an hour and noticed a lot more detail coming through than without it. Even at the 30 setting which I guess is the standard 100ohm (no idea) ? The bass notes were tonally superior but at a price of some slam. The treble sounded sweeter though and the kids sat in the mix with a better balance. I have in all honesty confused myself with which input/load/combo I like best. I think I'm going to give it a run with the SUT for a few days and see how I feel when I take it out. This MC lark is a nightmare lol.

I also need to do some learning so that's in my radar.

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[Bigman80]

I'm now sure it sounds best at 220ohms. I keep going g back to it so it must be right for me. Maybe different speakers etc would change things but to me it sounds great.

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[RothwellAudio]

... I used the SUT for an hour and noticed a lot more detail coming through than without it... The bass notes were tonally superior but at a price of some slam. The treble sounded sweeter though and the kids sat in the mix with a better balance.

I think, though I'm remain open-minded, that the bass slam is a function of the primary inductance of the SUT, ie its LF response. That's where expensive core materials come in into their own - more primary inductance. It's possibly also the reason why some folks prefer solid state headamps - it's easy to get a very good low frequency response.

[Bigman80]

I think, though I'm remain open-minded, that the bass slam is a function of the primary inductance of the SUT, ie its LF response. That's where expensive core materials come in into their own - more primary inductance. It's possibly also the reason why some folks prefer solid state headamps - it's easy to get a very good low frequency response.
I don't know a lot about MCs or headamps SUTs etc but to my ears I think it sounds better through the the 220ohm input. It has more attack and channel separation is amazing. It sound more controlled through the SUT so I suppose it depends what I'm listening to.

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[walpurgis]

I'm now sure it sounds best at 220ohms. I keep going g back to it so it must be right for me. Maybe different speakers etc would change things but to me it sounds great.

So you're still having fun then Oliver?

The Missions are quite revealing of cartridge character and show up inadequacies rather well. The Bloom should sound pretty nice with them.

Merry Christmas! :cool:

[Bigman80]

So you're still having fun then Oliver?

The Missions are quite revealing of cartridge character and show up inadequacies rather well. The Bloom should sound pretty nice with them.

Merry Christmas! :cool:
I am Geoff. Been looking at mission 773 freedoms because I'm so impressed with the 780se. Outstanding little speaker. Managed to make room for floorstanders so that's my next purchase in the new year.

Merry Christmas to you and yours.



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[walpurgis]

I'm not a fan of the 773 model. Did you mean the 770 Freedom? The Freedoms are OK, but would not be on my shopping list.

The super little 780SE's are one of those rare things that are just greater than the sum of their parts.

My tip is to find a way of getting Bev's System 800's. 94db sensitivity and they kick ass without any nasties, smooth and very detailed. Amazing imaging. You'd be knocked out by how good they are. But that's just my view of course, others may differ. :) (I have owned a few pairs though)






.

[Bigman80]

I'm not a fan of the 773 model. Did you mean the 770 Freedom? The Freedoms are OK, but would not be on my shopping list.

The super little 780SE's are one of those rare things that are just greater than the sum of their parts.

My tip is to find a way of getting Bev's System 800's. 94db sensitivity and they kick ass without any nasties, smooth and very detailed. Amazing imaging. You'd be knocked out by how good they are. But that's just my view of course, others may differ. :) (I have owned a few pairs though)






.
Hmm, fair enough. I'll look into those tannoys. Was thinking BIGGER lol

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[struth]

the tannoys are decent sized. good driver in them, and can happily be sat on side too

[RobbieGong]

[QUOTE=walpurgis;817249]I'm not a fan of the 773 model. Did you mean the 770 Freedom? The Freedoms are OK, but would not be on my shopping list.

The super little 780SE's are one of those rare things that are just greater than the sum of their parts.

My tip is to find a way of getting Bev's System 800's. 94db sensitivity and they kick ass without any nasties, smooth and very detailed. Amazing imaging. You'd be knocked out by how good they are. But that's just my view of course, others may differ. :) (I have owned a few pairs though)


Surely tis my Mission 752 Freedoms you speak of ;) :)

[Bigman80]

[QUOTE=walpurgis;817249]I'm not a fan of the 773 model. Did you mean the 770 Freedom? The Freedoms are OK, but would not be on my shopping list.

The super little 780SE's are one of those rare things that are just greater than the sum of their parts.

My tip is to find a way of getting Bev's System 800's. 94db sensitivity and they kick ass without any nasties, smooth and very detailed. Amazing imaging. You'd be knocked out by how good they are. But that's just my view of course, others may differ. :) (I have owned a few pairs though)


Surely tis my Mission 752 Freedoms you speak of ;) :)
Nope, not a typo but am also liking the look of the 752. What's your opinion on them

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[walpurgis]

Nope, not a typo but am also liking the look of the 752. What's your opinion on them

They're OK. One of Mission's better efforts. I didn't think they were desperately dynamic, but pleasant enough.

Ask Shane if you want another opinion. He's had them and the System 800's.

I have to admit. I'm not really that keen on most Missions, the 780SE is an exception.

[Bigman80]

They're OK. One of Mission's better efforts. I didn't think they were desperately dynamic, but pleasant enough.

Ask Shane if you want another opinion. He's had them and the System 800's.

I have to admit. I'm not really that keen on most Missions, the 780SE is an exception.
Hhmm. Maybe he'll chime in.

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[RobbieGong]

They're OK. One of Mission's better efforts. I didn't think they were desperately dynamic, but pleasant enough.

Ask Shane if you want another opinion. He's had them and the System 800's.

I have to admit. I'm not really that keen on most Missions, the 780SE is an exception.

Naturally dynamic I would say, definitely not 'desperately' dynamic, they are not in your face and do not impose themselves on you,
they just let the music flow in that natural organic way.
I can listen to them endlessly without fatigue which makes each session a pleasure.
Musical, detailed and lovely in the mids, vocals and instruments sound right, include great imaging too.
Bass is tight and punchy rather than lowest frequency, earthshakingly deep the 6.5 inch mid bass driver does a great job all things considered.
With every upgrade they just communicate back to you, revealing more. I find these humble speakers to be totally unfazed by big company in the chain.
In my view they are a true hi fidelity speaker and an absolute audiophile bargain.
I play soul, reggae, jazz, Steely Dan etc and they never cease to do the bizz for me everytime.
This is in the context of small - medium sized room.
This owner of 18 years @ 2014 sums up my sentiments to a T :) http://forums.naimaudio.com/topic/the-most-loved-hifi-in-the-world?reply=41551091079905084

[Bigman80]

Naturally dynamic I would say, definitely not 'desperately' dynamic, they are not in your face and do not impose themselves on you,
they just let the music flow in that natural organic way.
I can listen to them endlessly without fatigue which makes each session a pleasure.
Musical, detailed and lovely in the mids, vocals and instruments sound right, include great imaging too.
Bass is tight and punchy rather than lowest frequency, earthshakingly deep the 6.5 inch mid bass driver does a great job all things considered.
With every upgrade they just communicate back to you, revealing more. I find these humble speakers to be totally unfazed by big company in the chain.
In my view they are a true hi fidelity speaker and an absolute audiophile bargain.
I play soul, reggae, jazz, Steely Dan etc and they never cease to do the bizz for me everytime.
This is in the context of small - medium sized room.
This owner of 18 years @ 2014 sums up my sentiments to a T :) http://forums.naimaudio.com/topic/the-most-loved-hifi-in-the-world?reply=41551091079905084
I do like the look of them and it's nice to see them highly thought of. I'll be keeping my eyes open for some

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