Ortofon Cadenza Bronze. Hmm............?

[bob4333]

So here’s the issue.

I’ve just received from Ortofon (last week) a brand new Cadenza Bronze as a replacement under warranty for my previous CB that suffered an “internal failure”. Other than the dealer commenting “it’s unusual” I have no more insight.

Brilliant service from Ortofon and the dealer – no hassle, no if’s or maybes. Just an inspection and within 2 weeks I have a new one in my hands, as yet unopened, seal intact.

In the brief 23 hours I’d used the previous CB it majored on clarity and soundstage – but I was left wondering when it was going to start to “boogie” a bit and release a bit more body and bottom end. I realise 23 hours is a perilously short time in which to pass judgement on a cartridge but I can generally get a feel for the direction it’s going and this didn’t feel like it was going to get there.

So, the question is, would adding a SUT or headamp into the line make enough of a difference and put a bit more body into the performance or do I just cut my losses and offer the new cartridge for sale?

The big unanswerable also is whether the “internal failure” rather let things down a bit and that’s where I was missing out? I heard no distortion or channel imbalance. We can only speculate...................

Line up is Cadenza Bronze – SME IV – Icon Audio PS3 – Musical Fidelity A5cr – ProAc D28’s. The Icon Audio PS3 has both MM / MC inputs and a gain control which is why it goes directly into the power amp.

I did try a Graham Slee Elevator EXP (albeit with a different cartridge) about a year ago, and whilst being a superbly built piece of kit couldn’t tell any difference sonically on any of the loadings. So maybe these things work with some combinations and not with others? Don’t know.

The Ortofon ST 80SE would seem a logical choice but it’s big bucks if it doesn’t deliver. Be pleased to hear of people's views and experiences.

[montesquieu]

Cadenza Bronze should be a really nice cartidge - Replicant stylus as used on very high end SPUs, and superb internals.

How did you come to know it was broken? What were the symptoms?

Doesn't the Icon already have high-quality internal SUTs? At that price I'd expect it to.

I haven't actually heard the Bronze but I have owned the previous Ortofon Jubilee (which was excellent), and a Cadenza Blue I heard at length at Non-Smoking Man's place was hugely enjoyable as well as tremendously capable (listening to blues through his horn system). It's hard to see how the cartridge (if it was working ok) could be at fault here - unless the problem with it was causing an audible issue.

If I were you I'd certainly open it up and give it a go - you won't really know till you open it. (Schrodinger's Cartridge?)

[petrat]

Have you any specifications for your PS3, Bob? What is the gain and input impedance on the moving coil input? Icon seem to keep changing the models, so not sure if the current data is same as for yours.

[bob4333]

Cadenza Bronze should be a really nice cartidge - Replicant stylus as used on very high end SPUs, and superb internals.

How did you come to know it was broken? What were the symptoms?

Doesn't the Icon already have high-quality internal SUTs? At that price I'd expect it to.

I haven't actually heard the Bronze but I have owned the previous Ortofon Jubilee (which was excellent), and a Cadenza Blue I heard at length at Non-Smoking Man's place was hugely enjoyable as well as tremendously capable (listening to blues through his horn system). It's hard to see how the cartridge (if it was working ok) could be at fault here - unless the problem with it was causing an audible issue.

If I were you I'd certainly open it up and give it a go - you won't really know till you open it. (Schrodinger's Cartridge?)

Tom, this was the problem:-

http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee481/bob4333/Cadenza%20New/Cadenza%20Old/R0010471%20copy.jpg (http://s1230.photobucket.com/user/bob4333/media/Cadenza%20New/Cadenza%20Old/R0010471%20copy.jpg.html)

http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee481/bob4333/Cadenza%20New/Cadenza%20Old/R0010487.jpg (http://s1230.photobucket.com/user/bob4333/media/Cadenza%20New/Cadenza%20Old/R0010487.jpg.html)

So not a pretty sight on anything let alone a cartridge of this calibre, but as I say there was nothing obvious about it's sound - but as it was my first and only Cadenza Bronze would I have known?

Set up in the arm was painstaking with fine tuning of the bias using HFS 69 (within 0.1 of a gramme of the dial setting) so I don't think it was an improper set up that caused it in <23hours. Presumably neither did Ortofon or I'm sure they'd have made comment.

Schrodinger's Cartridge indeed.

[bob4333]

Have you any specifications for your PS3, Bob? What is the gain and input impedance on the moving coil input? Icon seem to keep changing the models, so not sure if the current data is same as for yours.

It's one of the early PS 3's I have Peter.

Sensitivity: 5mV for 1.6V (0.5mV MC)

Gain = 320 MM (3200 MC)

Load: imp: 47k MM, 100 Ohms MC

Always sounded sublime and one of those "breakthrough" pieces of kit we occasionally find.

Bob

[Ali Tait]

A SUT or head amp can make a large difference to how a cart sounds IMO.

Even if you sell it sealed, it's still secondhand, so I'd give it a go first. I reckon you'll need a good few hours on it before making your mind up, Were it me I'd be allowing a couple of hundred hours before making my mind up.

[hifi_dave]

I know it's not the concensus here but I find the Cadenza range to be a bit bland and uninvolving, especially at the elevated UK prices. The Blue is my preference, having a bit more attack.

A good head amp or x'mer can make a huge difference but the Icon you already have is pretty good.

[petrat]

S3 spec seems fine for the Ortofon. I've had a few Ortofons from new, and ime they all take a while to get going (maybe 30-50 hours).

[blake]

I think you are dealing with a gain mismatch/problem here.

As Montesquieu pointed out, you already have a built in SUT in the Icon presently. You're probably a little light of gain based on specifications of the Icon (it would be nice if you had another 3-4 dB of gain in the Icon); if I'm reading correctly, however, you're running the Icon directly into your power amplifier. Doing this or running into a passive pre often presents problems as you need to compensate with even more gain at the phono stage that you have given up going direct or with a passive.

My suggestion would be to run the Icon into your Audio Research line stage followed by the Power Amp (do not go direct) to pick up the additional gain from the line stage. This should result in significantly better performance and a pretty dramatic improvement in the "boogie, body & bottom end" that you are looking for.

You might still not have a perfect match but I would bet it would sound much, much better.

[farflungstar]

You need to give it at least 50 hours before making a decision - maybe a little longer. It really will open up around that mark - and if you still want to sell it the difference between sealed in a box and 50 hours play doesn't equate to a great deal of financial difference.
But my thoughts.
Adey

Sent from my Aquaris E4.5 using Tapatalk

[eddieedwards]

Has the dealers got either a run in bronze, or some suts you could try?

What you have should work fine, as you are able to present the cart with such a variety of loads and those that are the same as ortofon's suts, which are designed with their own in mind.

[bob4333]

Even if you sell it sealed, it's still secondhand, so I'd give it a go first. I reckon you'll need a good few hours on it before making your mind up, Were it me I'd be allowing a couple of hundred hours before making my mind up.

Perhaps, but I think there's secondhand and definitely secondhand. Once the seal is broken then there's no contest. But I'm more interested in what I might be missing in potentially getting the best out of the cartridge rather than recouping a bit of cash so I'm certainly on side with your logic of giving it a go. It's probably the only way to go and if I've missed out because there were insufficient hours on the original I think I'd be kicking myself for a long, long time.

Possibly even more true if the failure of the first cartridge was affecting it's potential. From looking again at the pix it looks as though the suspension has a permanent "set" and we can only speculate what may have been going on inside. Ah well, something to ponder over Christmas. :scratch:

[bob4333]

I think you are dealing with a gain mismatch/problem here.

............... You're probably a little light of gain based on specifications of the Icon (it would be nice if you had another 3-4 dB of gain in the Icon); if I'm reading correctly, however, you're running the Icon directly into your power amplifier. Doing this or running into a passive pre often presents problems as you need to compensate with even more gain at the phono stage that you have given up going direct or with a passive.

My suggestion would be to run the Icon into your Audio Research line stage followed by the Power Amp (do not go direct) to pick up the additional gain from the line stage. This should result in significantly better performance and a pretty dramatic improvement in the "boogie, body & bottom end" that you are looking for.

You might still not have a perfect match but I would bet it would sound much, much better.

Can't fault the overall logic Blake.

Those familiar with Musical Fidelity will recall that Antony Michaelson has never been one to skimp on pushing a few extra Watts into his power amps and this is no exception. Plugged straight into the amp the volume on the Icon gets to about 12 o'clock for, shall we say "comfortably loud" listening and by the time we're at about 2 o'clock my ears are ringing.

I have tried including the Audio Research in the equation (admittedly with other cartridges) and the performance lost a little body and warmth compared with going direct - but yes it did provide more options for balancing the Phono / Preamp settings. I think there'd be enough gain then to leave everything in a smoking ruin.

If I open the box and put the new Cartridge into the arm (as is now feeling more than likely) I'll try your suggestion again and see if it gives any improvement with a Cadenza Bronze. Be great if it does as the LS27 has a remote :)

[bob4333]

You need to give it at least 50 hours before making a decision - maybe a little longer. It really will open up around that mark - and if you still want to sell it the difference between sealed in a box and 50 hours play doesn't equate to a great deal of financial difference.
But my thoughts.
Adey

Sent from my Aquaris E4.5 using Tapatalk

Again, this is pushing me to give it a go. Maybe the original didn't get a fair trial.

[bob4333]

Has the dealers got either a run in bronze, or some suts you could try?

What you have should work fine, as you are able to present the cart with such a variety of loads and those that are the same as ortofon's suts, which are designed with their own in mind.

Perhaps, although I find it hard to be definitive in a dealers with all of the variables - but it can provide a directional guide.

I guess I was wondering if there was any "Magical Quality" to the pairing with an Ortofon ST80, as they're both made by the same company and presumably voiced to work together?

[Ammonite Audio]

Perhaps, although I find it hard to be definitive in a dealers with all of the variables - but it can provide a directional guide.

I guess I was wondering if there was any "Magical Quality" to the pairing with an Ortofon ST80, as they're both made by the same company and presumably voiced to work together?

Probably not, IME. The SUTs in your Icon Audio phono amp are probably of similar quality and their nominal loading is spot on for an Ortofon cartridge . You can get into magical territory with SUTs from the likes of the Hashimoto HM-7 and mid to upper range Audio Notes, but at a price.

[bob4333]

Thanks for that Hugo. It's stopped me wondering and saved me a grand. :)


(Edit: I've just looked at the price of some of the Audio Note stuff :eek:)

[RothwellAudio]

Can't fault the overall logic Blake.
Those familiar with Musical Fidelity will recall that Antony Michaelson has never been one to skimp on pushing a few extra Watts into his power amps and this is no exception. Plugged straight into the amp the volume on the Icon gets to about 12 o'clock for, shall we say "comfortably loud" listening and by the time we're at about 2 o'clock my ears are ringing.

If your ears are ringing with the volume control at 2 o'clock you don't need any more gain. Actually, I'd say you have a smidge too much gain, but not so much that it's worth worrying about.
As for "pushing watts into power amps...", er, really? A power amp's input terminals should be consuming a 1/10th of a milliwatt, absolute tops.



I guess I was wondering if there was any "Magical Quality" to the pairing with an Ortofon ST80, as they're both made by the same company and presumably voiced to work together?
No, Ortofon don't wind their own transformers as far as I'm aware, they buy them from Lundahl. There won't be any special magic to using the ST80.
I'd say you need to give the cartridge time to run in. If the sound isn't to your liking after a few hours I think you'll have to accept that you just don't like it.

[Wakefield Turntables]

I have the Cadenza black and ST80SE SUT, a very fine combination. You can probably buy better but at a price.

[RothwellAudio]

... I was left wondering when it was going to start to “boogie” a bit and release a bit more body and bottom end.


I suppose it all depends on what's meant by "body and bottom end". Cartridges tend to need some running-in before sounding their best and I suspect yours will improve with some use.
Or maybe it's an issue with the arm's effective mass. You try a quick test of adding some mass to the headshell to lower the resonant frequency of the arm/cartridge combination to see if that gives you more of the sound you're after.
SUTs and headamps shouldn't really have any effect on the tonal balance if they're working correctly, though I'm sure others will disagree.

[bob4333]

As for "pushing watts into power amps...", er, really? A power amp's input terminals should be consuming a 1/10th of a milliwatt, absolute tops.

A figure of speech, perhaps I expressed myself poorly.

I was trying to convey that most of Musical Fidelity's power amps are not lacking when it comes to output, 255 W per Channel into 8 Ohms in this case. Forgive my levity. Not a case of literally "pushing watts into power amps..."

[bob4333]

.....Or maybe it's an issue with the arm's effective mass. You try a quick test of adding some mass to the headshell to lower the resonant frequency of the arm/cartridge combination to see if that gives you more of the sound you're after.

That's another option, thanks Andrew. I'll get into the calcs again (haven't done that for a while) and see where it lies. All too easy to overlook some of the obvious options when you get too deep into this.

[RothwellAudio]

Yes, maybe I was being a bit pedantic.
Anyway, lack of gain isn't really the problem in this instance.

[Ammonite Audio]

I have the Cadenza black and ST80SE SUT, a very fine combination. You can probably buy better but at a price.

Have you ever heard the Cadenza Black, or a similar Ortofon through other SUTs? A SUT using Hashimoto HM-3, or even better HM-7 transformers would (IME) humiliate the ST-80SE. I made the mistake of selling a plain little Bob's Devices Cinemag SUT in favour of a new and unheard ST-80SE, to use with a Kontrapunkt B which is not dissimilar to your cartridge in most respects. A brief audition in my system of Martin T's Choir Audio SUT (fitted with HM-7s) was enough to confirm my mistake. The Choir Audio SUT was too much money, so when an Audio Note AN-S3H came my way at a good price, I bought it and that's what I still use; at least until I can get a SUT with HM-7s inside!

[Wakefield Turntables]

A SUT using Hashimoto HM-3, or even better HM-7 transformers would (IME) humiliate the ST-80SE.

I'm not really into humiliation, not my sort of thing.

[blake]

Lots of interesting suggestions. Arm and cartridge should be a pretty decent matchup.

No question that break-in of cartridge will be important as well. Most that I've used tend to be a bit strident well into the 50 hour mark, some longer.

Another factor to consider is the Replicant stylus. I've used Peter Ledermann's OCL stylus in the past, which very closely resembles (it is almost identical to the Replicant) the Replicant and it was, without question, the most difficult stylus to properly set up and optimize. Unless all the factors (alignment, azimuth, VTA/SRA and VTF) are pretty much absolutely perfect that stylus can sound thin and aggressive in my experience. The windows/ranges for all the parameters of proper set up with this stylus seem to be much tighter than with other stylus profiles, so nailing the setup can be quite time consuming.

Probably best to ball park it with initial set up and do your best to get it sounding decent and not worry too much and then come back after 50 hours or so and really fine tune at that time. Extremely small adjustments to SRA and VTF can result in dramatically improved sound quality with that stylus and the azimuth and alignment need to be spot on.

[Ammonite Audio]

I'm not really into humiliation, not my sort of thing.

My apologies - incautious wording that could have come across better

[RobbieGong]

Lots of interesting suggestions. Arm and cartridge should be a pretty decent matchup.

No question that break-in of cartridge will be important as well. Most that I've used tend to be a bit strident well into the 50 hour mark, some longer.

Another factor to consider is the Replicant stylus. I've used Peter Ledermann's OCL stylus in the past, which very closely resembles (it is almost identical to the Replicant) the Replicant and it was, without question, the most difficult stylus to properly set up and optimize. Unless all the factors (alignment, azimuth, VTA/SRA and VTF) are pretty much absolutely perfect that stylus can sound thin and aggressive in my experience. The windows/ranges for all the parameters of proper set up with this stylus seem to be much tighter than with other stylus profiles, so nailing the setup can be quite time consuming.

Probably best to ball park it with initial set up and do your best to get it sounding decent and not worry too much and then come back after 50 hours or so and really fine tune at that time. Extremely small adjustments to SRA and VTF can result in dramatically improved sound quality with that stylus and the azimuth and alignment need to be spot on.

Best advice ever! - (from 'Another factor .....' )

[Clive197]

In my opinion the Cadenza Bronze can rock. I'm speaking from experience from running one for over a year before upgrading to a Cadenza Black.
Interestingly my own Bronze had to go back as the cantilever was slightly askew and was replaced by Henley Designs who are Ortofon's UK distributer without any fuss.