What Is This 'Prog Rock' Of Which You Speak?

[The Grand Wazoo]

Right then all you progressive rock people (surely it should be called regressive rock by now?) .........I want you to define it to me if you can please?

I don't want a list of bands or albums, thanks. (Or a year, Andre!) Rather, I'd like a description of what it is that makes any given album fall into this particular pigeonhole that you have given it. And what stops something else falling into it.



............then, maybe we'll get onto why it's almost only men who like it.

[Rare Bird]

Have you got all year? :lolsign:

The Genre 'Progressive Rock' is broken down in to loads of Sub Genre which is confusing to some..

My key intrest is *Proto Prog*, mainly the reason i have an early '70's breaking point..



Proto-Prog: in other words prototype, the earliest development of the term. Most proto prog bands did release albums a little further into the progressive movement as all didnt progress as fast as each other, this makes it harder for me to pigeon hole bands to a certain time frame.This early era is seen to be the most important stage of the evolution of prog.

Proto bands were the natural progression from Psyche as elements of Psychadelic are clearly pin pointed within these bands work. Most proto prog fans do & are happy to have numerous Psych albums within their collections.

Progressive as a whole is culmination of other genre styles prior to '69/'70. weither it be, Jazz, classical, folk etc etc,prog was technically a form of magpieism put to creative yet astonishing use...Most of these early band evolved into more technical foray within a few years, while others made a single album or two early doors, then dissapear off the face of the earth.

Progressive was a very short lived effort but reaped literally thousands of bands withing the Genre, quit a few sub genre's within the progressive mould ie: Space Rock, Symphonic, Art Rock..but these are generally press pigeon hole titles IMHO..

This is one of the hardest subject to explain to a total stranger to this music.The aid of so called later band branding themselves as prog can ofter delude a newcomer, confusing things in the process..

[Kris]

I love Prog Rock. Got tons of it, mostly on LP.

What is is? Umm . . . Rock with an underpinning of Psychedelic/classical/jazz etc

Can be long 15-25 pieces, in various movements. Concept albums were a favourite as well. (can't beat a good prog rock concept album!)

At least that's my take on it. I'm no expert though.

As for mostly men liking prog rock, really? Never thought about it . .

[Rare Bird]

Here's a quick three example of early prog bands which are built around different style genres.

b82v6yrEmOA

(Classical influence)

0Ha3GSjeOUw

(Jazz/Classical Influence)

ups1vWqzrWk

(Jazz/R&B Influence)

Most these musicians were Classically or Jazz trained musicians

Two important instrument within Early prog were Hammond Organ usually L100 series & B3/C3 Organ & Mellotron.Melletrons is very very important.

One thing try to drop the 'ROCK' bit from PROG..It's not fitting for most in the genre..The Progressive Movement please..

[John]

I used to have A Japanese girlfriend who liked a lot of prog bands like King crimson and also had a South Amercian girlfriend that liked PFM but it is very rare for woman to like it
Reasons why women may not like it lots of time changes so appeals to those of us with more geeky tendencies and songs that are often longer than 4mins sometimes lasting 30mins or more. I think also the lyrics and many albums being conceptual does not help either
But also think HIfi is very male dominated too

[Marco]

I think it's likely that the style of lyrics with prog rock doesn't lend the genre to be appreciated by most women. They're rather 'doomy and gloomy' in that respect (with 'hooks' liable to appeal more to men), and since in my experience women in general tend to relate to lyrics in songs more than melodies, I suspect that this is why guys mostly like prog.

I'm not a massive fan of prog, but don't mind some of it, although I would admit to being fairly ignorant of many bands producing music which falls into this category, therefore I remain willing to be thus (gently) educated :)

Marco.

[DSJR]

There's a whole german thing too, which spawned the likes of Neu, Can and the whole "Electronic" genre I love so much, which was also "progressive" in that nothing quite like it had ever been done before - and that's the whole point I think...

[Marco]

I like Can, only heard Neu a few times - not really my bag.

Does 'krautrock' have connections with prog, then? As I say, bear with me here, as I'm not really up on this sort of stuff!

Marco.

[Themis]

A very neutral, yet accurate definition : http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=77:4465

And if you need some details on style positioning in pop/rock : http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=73:20

[Marco]

Cheers, Dimitri! I'll have a good read through that :)

Unfortunately, most of this stuff has passed me by somewhat...

Marco.

[Peter Galbavy]

Synths with background electric guitars and drums. From the 70s.

(now running away, fast...)

[Themis]

Synths with background electric guitars and drums. From the 70s.

(now running away, fast...)
Not fast enough :eyebrows:

[Rare Bird]

Have you got all year? :lolsign:

The Genre 'Progressive Rock' is broken down in to loads of Sub Genre which is confusing to some..

My key intrest is *Proto Prog*, mainly the reason i have an early '70's breaking point..



Proto-Prog: in other words prototype, the earliest development of the term. Most proto prog bands did release albums a little further into the progressive movement as all didnt progress as fast as each other, this makes it harder for me to pigeon hole bands to a certain time frame.This early era is seen to be the most important stage of the evolution of prog.

Proto bands were the natural progression from Psyche as elements of Psychadelic are clearly pin pointed within these bands work. Most proto prog fans do & are happy to have numerous Psych albums within their collections.

Progressive as a whole is culmination of other genre styles prior to '69/'70. weither it be, Jazz, classical, folk etc etc,prog was technically a form of magpieism put to creative yet astonishing use...Most of these early band evolved into more technical foray within a few years, while others made a single album or two early doors, then dissapear off the face of the earth.

Progressive was a very short lived effort but reaped literally thousands of bands withing the Genre, quit a few sub genre's within the progressive mould ie: Space Rock, Symphonic, Art Rock..but these are generally press pigeon hole titles IMHO..

This is one of the hardest subject to explain to a total stranger to this music.

Sticking with the UK for a while, by the time '72'/'73 came along most these early bands had matured somewhat, well the ones that survived that is, your ELP, YES, Genesis are the ones people generally associated with prog as a whole which is pretty much ignorant, these bands around this time were branded Art Rock, primarily because their live stage shows were so flamboyant, outrageous even... the shows were a striking artistic masterpiece.This time was the time Concept albums were rife, half hour pieces that would take a full side of a record, YES were propably the most well know for this as well as the OTT live shows at the time (Roger Dean was a genious).You can clearly see for yourself the difference in YES for example, between proto prog (Time And A Word LP), early cross over prog (The Yes Album LP) & this more advanced art rock stage (Close To The Edge LP).Let not forget the Prog album artwork, this alone was a big thing for proggers.

Even though the Italians had been casually making progressive music ever since we started it of,they mostly came into the fore by the time we were crumbling, the best Italian albums were around '73/'74. Bands such as PFM & Le Orme were legendary.But as us they hit the rock bottom completely IMHO by '75.

Sticking with the UK gain, you had other sub genres ie: Canterbury Scene, as the titles says from that particular area of the country, saying that the odd band were pigeon holed into this music that didnt even originate from Canterbury..These bands pretty much had their own sound..

Another is Psychadelic/Space Rock, this is the area where bands such as Hawkwind lie, space fantasty was the key idea..A close relation to space Rock was a Krautrock sub genre called kosmische (Kosmick Music).. This was pretty much the ultimate sector of Kraut music.

Zeul was a nother sub genre, another sound all of it's own..

As with the UK Germany were early starters, Krautrock was born from the state of the country politically, each region had a different style,The majority of Krautrock (which includes Switzerland & Austria) with exception to Kosmische & the early experimental electronic based bands, were pretty much dated simple sound more Guitar based, other straight forward styles were Swedish & Danish bands.

Pretty much every country around the world had progressive rock output of some style or another.

I will omit America as i feel they wouldnt know what music was if it hit them in the teeth..

Regardless of what people claim Prog was just about done for by '73, deffo gone by '75, the absolute survivers, even those who survived the Punk era & beyond, had such a drastic sound change it was no longer prog even tho some happy to call it so..Most the surviver by mid '70's went the Jazz fusion route , some commercial radio play material, some total different style of music.I don't have time for this new fangled modern junk often titled Neo prog etc it's nothing but a case of listerning to old prog artists together with zero musical Imagination/creativity.

[The Grand Wazoo]

OK, thanks for the potted history.
Now then, how about an answer to this question.....anybody?


I'd like a description of what it is that makes any given album fall into this particular pigeonhole that you have given it. And what stops something else falling into it.

Kris comes nearest to answering it, but that still doesn't do it for me.


Rock with an underpinning of Psychedelic/classical/jazz etc

Can be long 15-25 pieces, in various movements. Concept albums were a favourite as well. (can't beat a good prog rock concept album!)


All of those things appear elsewhere -
Purcell was an influence on The Who.
Quadrophenia is chock-a-block full of Wagner.
Baroque in heavy metal.
There are plenty of long pieces of music.
Concept albums? Freak Out.....Sgt Pepper......

Come on guys, convince me that there's a purpose in musical pigeon-holes - especially this one.
I still think it's all just rock & roll.

[Beechwoods]

You know it when you hear it! For me it's defined by overt virtuosity and long song durations. Sub-genres feature the ever-present Concept, and lyrics about trolls and elves. Personally, I've never been into the latter, but the instrumental, jazzy, Canterbury stuff really does float my boat. Nice to see 2 of the 3 bands Andre mentions are oft-considered to be of the 'Canterbury' scene :)

[Rare Bird]

Chris your asking near on impossible, as mentioned in my posts the Genre is split up into so many different subs theres no deffinate style, styles within style regarding foreign bands of the same if you get my meaning..After decades of listerning to virtually everything you get around to knowing yourself what your asking but find it extremely hard to convey across ..But you can deffo tell what is prog & what isnt prog within moosik

[Rare Bird]

I still think it's all just rock & roll.

Look on the back of Pink Floyd 'Ummagumma' vinyl album it will state 'Files Under Popular (pop) Moosik', it's far from pop moosik. ;)

[flatpopely]

PROG:-

I need to think about this one. My future reputation rests on this!

I will provide my thoughts soon.

Andrew

[Rare Bird]

PROG:-

I need to think about this one. My future reputation rests on this!

I will provide my thoughts soon.

Andrew

Pre mid '70's i hope. ;)

[Themis]

I still think it's all just rock & roll.
If you manage to listen to the whole "Tales from Topographic Oceans" (a very controversed album) up to the last note, then go on saying that it's "just rock&roll" and NOT "just rubbish" or "damn boring" then, yes, prog is "just rock&roll". ;)

[The Grand Wazoo]

Look on the back of Pink Floyd 'Ummagumma' vinyl album it will state 'Files Under Popular (pop) Moosik', it's far from pop moosik. ;)

I disagree - you're putting it into this slot long after the fact. At the time it was pop music - nothing more, nothing less.
This is my point.

I'm gonna have to start quoting Billy Joel in a minute, please don't make me do that!!!!

[Rare Bird]

I disagree - you're putting it into this slot long after the fact. At the time it was pop music - nothing more, nothing less.
This is my point.


Nop it's always been progressive from day one.No putting into a slot at all..Your just being negative Chris.

Here's three paper clippings from 1970.

Notice the Hawkwind ad for the first album here. Says 'SPACE ROCK' Sub genre of prog as i mentioned

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a222/LIVING-SIN/SpaceRock.jpg

Below are two more clippings also from 1970 both mention Progressive..If you want more ads i can find em

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a222/LIVING-SIN/Prog2.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a222/LIVING-SIN/Prog1.jpg

[The Grand Wazoo]

.......and I've seen references from 1970(ish) of Black Sabbath as progressive rock. How does that fit in with your formula?


By the way, my wife likes that Clark Hutchinson album - that proves it's not 'prog'.

[John]

I tend to think of genres as a necessary evil
On one hand it helps to market and gives people a sense of what they are buying on the other it can act as a barrier to creativity

[Haselsh1]

Prog Rock for me is about a concept and when taken to extreme forms the basis of a whole concept album. Almost anything by the Canterbury Band 'Camel' is a concept and therefore, for me, Prog Rock. All of the early Genesis recordings were based upon a storyline albeit rather fantasy based and therefore are Prog Rock. Indicative of this is a complex range of time signature changes and a certain level of improvisation. Nowadays I mainly listen to 'Camel' and also 'Ozric Tentacles' however I understand that the latter are more heavily 'Space Jazz'. For me 'Camel' still retain the beautiful melodies of Prog Rock and the everso haunting melancholy that always went with that genre.

[Covenant]

I have sat here for ten minutes thinking about how I would define progressive music. I thought back to being a teenager in the 70's and what I considered good and bad musically. In the good camp was Jimmi Hendrix, Pink Floyd and Yes and ELP. In the bad camp was Status Quo.
I dont know enough about the sub-genres like Andre, I wonder if they exist in any real sense.
So I think I would simply define it as music with imagination.

[Haselsh1]

"Music with Imagination"

Very definitely. A truly vivid imagination that probably had a lot to do with chemical intervention. There was also a heavy classical music quality to Prog which was very evident on 'Horizons' by Genesis. This was almost a direct ripoff of a Bach Cello piece but was played with the some intense feeling by Steve Hackett.

For me, Prog is about intense emotion and melancholy and that's why I love 'Camel' so much. Prog's melody lines are very definitely unequalled.

[Covenant]

Unfortunately music goes in and out of favour like fashion clothes. Progressive music will one day be respected I think, not vilified like it is now.
Early Genesis and Camel were superb. I would count 'Selling England by The Pound' as one of the best all time albums.

[REM]

http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/Vinylista/Prog2.jpg

Clark Hutchinson, their seminal A=MH2 is available on 180g vinyl from SUNBEAM RECORDS (http://www.sunbeamrecords.com/CLARK_HUTCHINSON/CLARK_HUTCHINSON.html).
Dunno if it's prog or not and don't care but it's all based on free improv which is one of progs' major elements, so I suppose along with the likes of The Greatful Dead, Jefferson Airplane etc., in the States and bands like Cream over here, with their live sets made up mostly of extended soloing/improv it could be seen as a precursor to what became prog.
Trouble with prog, for me, is that it very quickly disappeared under the weight of its own frills and frippery (geddit) where once there had been music of real substance was all too soon replaced with endless pointless, self indulgent, noodle doodling, such as Yes' T.O.T.O. (very possibly the worst album ever recorded).

[Rare Bird]

.......and I've seen references from 1970(ish) of Black Sabbath as progressive rock. How does that fit in with your formula?


By the way, my wife likes that Clark Hutchinson album - that proves it's not 'prog'.

For fuck sale chris think what you will. :mental: i'm done on this subject

[Kris]

If you manage to listen to the whole "Tales from Topographic Oceans" (a very controversed album) up to the last note, then go on saying that it's "just rock&roll" and NOT "just rubbish" or "damn boring" then, yes, prog is "just rock&roll". ;)


Trouble with prog, for me, is that it very quickly disappeared under the weight of its own frills and frippery (geddit) where once there had been music of real substance was all too soon replaced with endless pointless, self indulgent, noodle doodling, such as Yes' T.O.T.O. (very possibly the worst album ever recorded).

Personally I feel the worse thing about T.F.T.O is that I can only listen to it with the balance knob in the 9 o'clock position :scratch: Btw, strange stamper numbers on mine - A1/B1/C1/D3. I wonder what happened to D1 & D2 !

Yes, it's a bit monotonous in places, and I'd agree that it's a perfect example of "pointless, self indulgent, noodle doodling", but some bits are truly fab. And no, I've never tried listening to it all in one go. I listen to each record in separate sessions.

I know these things are in the eye of the beholder, but people shouldn't just write it off. At least not without listening to all 4 sides first.

[The Grand Wazoo]

Well, I just listened to 'Tales of yer Topographicals'

It's been a few years since I played it. I still think it's a pile of over indulgent poo.

But it's over indulgent rock & roll poo.


AMsIT7vH2IA

[Rare Bird]

Narrow minds don't you love em, some people know everything about music tho, don't they!

[Themis]

Cant be more over-indulgent than Satriani, anyway... :lol:

[Rare Bird]

Satriani, anyway... :lol:

Desperate more like


:lol:

[The Grand Wazoo]

Narrow minds don't you love em, some people know everything about music tho, don't they!

Is this directed at me?

Do you remember saying this.......

This style of prog is remnants of what was left of the genre, too over pretentious..
..........about this album?

This thread is not a criticism of 'your' music Andre. I'm trying to understand why things must be labelled and I'm trying to understand the breadth of your chosen field of interest.

You misunderstand me completely. How many people do you know who've heard (or even heard of) 'Retribution' ? - never mind owning a copy of it on vinyl for decades.

Narrow minded? No, sorry.

[Rare Bird]

Is this directed at me?

Do you remember saying this.......

..........about this album?



I wasnt refering to Topographic cos it is over pretentious. I was refering to you doubting there was no such genre as prog even though i've clearly proven there was with the clippings! Can you just please take my word for it, i'm the one with the obsessional intrest in it!

[The Grand Wazoo]

I don't doubt that people put things into genres - they always have & they always will.
People like to put things into boxes. But those boxes are different for everyone. I think I clearly proved that with my point about Black Sabbath.

I don't like genres because I think they can close peoples minds.

I wanted to know what criteria the various people here who use this definition have. My taste in music is very broad and it includes some of the things people like to put in the 'prog' box. However, I also like (......& here we go with the genres) classical music, orchestral music, piano music, the blues (especially very early blues), jazz, heavy rock. Anyone who has read more than 2 of my spinning today posts know the list goes on and on.

I don't discriminate by label - I give everything an equal chance.
I just wanted to know a little more about your label.






I'll try not to bother you again.

[Rare Bird]

Chris don't go off in a huff ffs. I'm trying my best to explain a very complex moosik style & your just being as negative as fuck about it

weither you like or not the record companies were the pigeon holers not me..major record labels put out spin labels off especially for prog bands, it was a new exciting music they felt should have it's own identity/labels.they did go off tangent with a few releases but it doesnt alter the fact these labels were created for the progressive bands.

Re: Black Sabbath are now know as an heavy rock band but the first few albums were released on a prog label, in all fairness early sabbs had all the attributes of a prog within the structures of their material even tho they were more heavier than norm.Other equaly as heavy bands within the prog circle were ie: Warhorse, Quatermass, Deep Purple, Zior, Uriah Heep etc etc...

As an example:
Deep purple were originally signed to EMI Palophone label for the first 'Shades Of' album, by the 2nd release 'The Book of Taliesyn' it was 1969 prog was on the go by now EMI formed the Harvest label for up & coming progressive music, automatically Purple were moved to Harvest for this album as the sound was deemed Progressive, still in '69 next release was just 'Deep Purple' the last purple album for Rod Evans & Nick Simper...bypassing the rather oddball 'Concherto For Group & Orchestra' album Deep purple with new members progressed into the more heavy style of 'In Rock' around the time of Sabbaths debut.Nick simper from the original line up went to form Warhorse another very heavy progressive band equally as heavy as Mk.II Purple..Heavyness isnt an issue it's the attributes within the moosik.

[John]

For me there is a issue between what progressive music might of orginally ment, this is probarly closer to actual dictionary defination and what it means now
So intially it described music that brought influnces from rock classical jazz where musicianship was highly valued into a modern unique sounding context, but I guess for most peole they would also see it as representing a genre and within a time period.
I see bands like Pain of Salvation they have constantly changed as progressive, as well as bands like Tool and even Opeth being progressive. But I also reconise that its influnces also have impact on artists like the Chemical Brothers.
I guess for me I see it more as a band values than genre but I think I am in the minority on this one

[Haselsh1]

Unfortunately music goes in and out of favour like fashion clothes. Progressive music will one day be respected I think, not vilified like it is now.
Early Genesis and Camel were superb. I would count 'Selling England by The Pound' as one of the best all time albums.


Covenant: I have to agree with you on this one. I personally think that 'Selling England By The Pound', the '73 Genesis album is very probably one of the finest pieces of music ever recorded. OK, there are many more examples that stand out in music history but this is quite unique.

[Haselsh1]

For me, Prog Rock closed its own door with the album 'The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway'. That was the essence of Prog Rock but unfortunately, at that time, things were changing rapidly. We had Genesis evolving into a dire pop band with some of the worst drivel of the eighties and we had Pink Floyd's utter arrogance in the form of Roger Waters. Prog Rock was the maker of its own doom.

These days I enjoy the early Genesis recordings and the middle Pink Floyd work but the nearest I can get to an evolution of Prog Rock is Ozric Tentacles. OK I still listen to Camel and hope to hell that things work out for Andy Latimer as I understand he has been seriously ill but isn't it all just living in the past...? Isn't that what Prog Rock is all about these days...?

[The Grand Wazoo]

For me there is a issue between what progressive music might of orginally ment, this is probarly closer to actual dictionary defination and what it means now

This is at the root of my OP.
The word progressive refers to something which is changing - evolving. It was originally used to denote music which was different from the norm, not to describe a particular style or mindset. To me, Andre's take on prog is diametrically opposed to this. His definition of prog is by now, as I said, regressive.

Not that there's anything wrong with having a taste for older music, but to freeze something in time whilst calling it progressive seems a little more like taxidermy than a progression.

This is not intended as a slight on anyone, just an observation of how labelling things can be counterproductive.

[Haselsh1]

Mr Wazzoo I couldn't agree more. Prog Rock for me was always going to be a non commercial evolution of Rock music that incorprated elements of classical. At the present time I honestly believe that it has evolved once again away from the original bands and into bands like Ozric Tentacles and Trio. Yes we have the old dogs hanging on in and trying desperately to impress but let's face it, the new stuff is bloody good.

[REM]

As a bit of an aside, I were in t'pub t'other neet an were gerin' reet pissed off wi' usual jukebox fayre. Now then, this jukie is one o'them modern ones, like, wi' every song ever done on it, it sez, like. So, I types in "wish" on search an' wot d'yer think comes up, like? Only "Phoenix" by Wishbone Ash, 'e, they'll like that' I thought, so 'I'll treet thee' thinks I, to all 15 minutes of it!
'E you should 'av seen their 'appy, smilin, faces, you could tell 'ow much of nice change it made from t'Black Eyed Peas an' Killers 'an all......
:rolleyes:

[Rare Bird]

This is at the root of my OP.
The word progressive refers to something which is changing - evolving. It was originally used to denote music which was different from the norm, not to describe a particular style or mindset. To me, Andre's take on prog is diametrically opposed to this. His definition of prog is by now, as I said, regressive.

Not that there's anything wrong with having a taste for older music, but to freeze something in time whilst calling it progressive seems a little more like taxidermy than a progression.

This is not intended as a slight on anyone, just an observation of how labelling things can be counterproductive.

As explained by earlier post i did state that progressive did change from the proto prog stage of being semi Psych to crossover to the common commercialish prog people associate with Concept albums, i've also given examples of progression within YES albums ie: YES the debut (Proto), THE YES ALBUM (Crossover), Say TALES FROM TOPOGRAPHIC OCEANS (full blown advancements in prog)..I've also mentioned prog was a form of Magpieism taking on styles from other genres, pre '69/70 Ie: Jazz, Classical.They used these styles as a tool to create their own style of music, some burned out, some didnt (But did eventually)..

Darlek Neil is right i am a right wing fundamentalist Proger, i have a strict agender..This all happend within the first few years of the movement, why the hell would i want to move away from these few years, there was nothing after to associate with it, muppets seem to thinks so..;)

[Themis]

This is at the root of my OP.
The word progressive refers to something which is changing - evolving. It was originally used to denote music which was different from the norm, not to describe a particular style or mindset. To me, Andre's take on prog is diametrically opposed to this. His definition of prog is by now, as I said, regressive.

Not that there's anything wrong with having a taste for older music, but to freeze something in time whilst calling it progressive seems a little more like taxidermy than a progression.

This is not intended as a slight on anyone, just an observation of how labelling things can be counterproductive.

Progressive rock and art rock are two almost interchangeable terms describing a mostly British attempt to elevate rock music to new levels of artistic credibility. The differences between prog-rock and art rock are often slight in practice, but do exist.
Prog-rock tends to be more traditionally melodic (even when multi-sectioned compositions replace normal song structures), more literary (poetry or sci-fi/fantasy novels), and more oriented toward classically trained instrumental technique (with the exception of Pink Floyd).
Art rock is more likely to have experimental or avant-garde influences, placing novel sonic texture above prog-rock's symphonic ambitions. Both styles are intrinsically album-based, taking advantage of the format's capacity for longer, more complex compositions and extended instrumental explorations.

In fact, many prog bands were fond of crafting concept albums that made unified statements, usually telling an epic story or tackling a grand overarching theme. In addition to pushing rock's technical and compositional boundaries, prog-rock was also arguably the first arena where synthesizers and electronic textures became indispensable parts of a rock ensemble. The earliest rumblings of progressive and art rock could be heard in the poetry of Bob Dylan and conceptually unified albums like the Mothers of Invention's Freak Out! and the Beatles' Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, all of which suggested that rock was more than just teenagers' music and should be taken seriously as an art form.

Prog-rock began to emerge out of the British psychedelic scene in 1967, specifically a strain of classical/symphonic rock led by the Nice, Procol Harum, and the Moody Blues (Days of Future Passed). King Crimson's 1969 debut In the Court of the Crimson King firmly established the concept of progressive rock, and a quirky, eclectic scene was taking shape in Canterbury, led by the jazzy psychedelia of the Soft Machine.

Prog-rock became a commercial force in the early '70s, with Emerson, Lake & Palmer, Yes, Jethro Tull, Genesis, and Pink Floyd leading the way. Meanwhile, a more avant-garde scene (dubbed Kraut-rock) was developing in Germany, and eccentric, unclassifiable bands continued to emerge in the U.K.

By the mid-'70s, a backlash was beginning to set in; prog-rock sometimes mistook bombast for majesty, and its far-reaching ambition and concern with artistic legitimacy could make for overblown, pretentious music.

Its heyday soon came to an end with the advent of punk, which explicitly repudiated prog's excesses and aimed to return rock & roll to its immediate, visceral roots.

Still, prog-rock didn't completely go away. A number of AOR bands used prog ideas in more concise songs; plus, Pink Floyd, Yes, and Genesis all had number one singles in the '80s by retooling their approaches.

A small cult of neo-prog bands catered to faithful audiences who still liked grandiose concepts and flashy technique; the first was Marillion, and many more popped up in the late '80s and early '90s.

But, of course, neo-prog bands have nothing to do with prog-rock, since prog-rock had never been simply "grandiose concepts and flashy technique".
Easy. :)

[Rare Bird]

Can i just say


**PROG ROCKS**

Bye chaps..

[John]

So do most people here see progressive music within the early 70s or do people see it still alive and vibrant now

[Rare Bird]

do people see it still alive and vibrant now

Slightly impossible seen as it don't exist anymore

:lol:

[Rare Bird]

This clip typifies what went wrong & what a lot ended up sounding like by mid '70's..Many bands went like this ie: Gong (Pierre Moerlen era), Soft Machine (post Robert Wyatt era)..loads of bands that all sounded the same Solor Plexus, Brand X, Egba etc etc...meaningless Jazz Fusion drivvel.

6wlbMKqlMPU

[John]

I think we disagree on this Andre I see progressive more closer to its orignal meaning. So for me a band like Tool or Pain of Salvation wiould meet my defination of being progressive I am totally cool that you will see it differently
Ps I love good jazz fusion It has an energy and musicality that can send shivers down my spine
I think people often see Jazz fusion coming from progressive rock or the other way around but this would be a miss understanding

[Rare Bird]

John you & others are taking the word 'Progressive' & using it as it's dictionary meaning.Yes Progressive does mean Progress as most the bands did.This mid '70's jazz fusion sound had progressed from early stage of using Jazz as the basis of their sound, they actually progressed too far & ended up playing straight forward Jazz/Fusion sound, this no longer is Prog IMHO, it's a fashion sound of the times they all went through..These bands sound did again evolve into something else by the 1980's which would be even further away from their original sound & futher away from prog as i know it, in other word it's dead no turning back.So called progressive these days can't be progressive in the meaning i'm trying to convey cos the music progressed out of itself into something else.

I associate Progressive with the bands at the time it began, the cloths the creativeness lack of commercialism mostly undergraound movements.Basic instruments Mellotrons, Hammond organs, all this lost by later date..Gone caput...

[The Grand Wazoo]

So do most people here see progressive music within the early 70s or do people see it still alive and vibrant now



It would appear that there is nothing like a common and widely accepted definition of this, only a vague idea from most folk of what they classify as being within the genre or not. Nick's assessment (to paraphrase):

"I can't describe it but you know what it is when you hear it"
.......seems a common enough yardstick. Because of this, I'd say that it's anything but surprising that this question can't be answered and that Andre's stance exists. Since everyone's definition of the genre is in their head and their head alone, it would seem that all definitions are as valid as each other.

Andre, it's great that you can be so passionate about the music you love, but sometimes it comes across as being rather aggressive towards the music you don't love, and consequently towards the people who happen to like that music.

I struggle to understand some of your ideas on what it was in the early days – if it emerged as a fully formed movement rather than bands being slotted into pigeon-holes after the fact as I contend, how can you explain what you call proto-prog? Did the members of Yes wake up one morning and say:

"This is our first album and we are proto-prog & then later we'll make some even more groovy albums, by which time we'll have groovier clothes and groovier instruments. We don't want to sell any of those albums, because we don't want to be commercial. When we get to that stage, you can call us prog."
Somehow, I don't think so! Proto-anything could not be named as such before the fact – it's impossible. Did we have a thing called the First World War before the Second? No, it was called the Great War – It's the same for proto-prog!

If a band turned up tomorrow playing music with all the exact attributes you hold dear, it seems you wouldn't give them the time of day because of your fixed view that the music you love is no longer alive. I get the idea that you may just be cutting of your nose to spite your face a little.
Which is precisely the reason why I don't like genres.

[Rare Bird]

Don't be nasty Christopher.

I never said there was such a thing in the text books as 'PROTO' i mearly said it was the prototype for things to come..

I'm sorry if i come across as Agresssive to people i don't mean to but i do feel that Early prog is the Elite music & all others is amateur vastly inferior compared IMHO




If a band turned up tomorrow playing music with all the exact attributes you hold dear, it seems you wouldn't give them the time of day

That would be a total & utter impossibility for that to happen.

[The Grand Wazoo]

Don't be nasty Christopher.

Nasty?
Sorry, no...That wasn't the intention.


I never said there was such a thing in the text books as 'PROTO' ..

No, but there is this sub-genre in the 'Andre world-view'


I'm sorry if i come across as Agresssive to people i don't mean to but i do feel that Early prog is the Elite music & all others is amateur vastly inferior compared IMHO

As I said:

it's great that you can be so passionate about the music you love




That would be a total & utter impossibility for that to happen.

............QED !!!!

[Themis]

In my humble opinion, it is much simpler if we all refer to the music genres as they are broadly defined in magazines/specialized sites (AMG etc)/encyclopedias/wikipedia whatever you like.
All these places agree on the definition of what is Progressive Rock, as well as on all the other genres/styles of music, popular or not. So why not refer to this information ?

On Prog Rock, these sites agree that the style ended in the seventies.
Since the eighties, there is another style called Neo-Prog. But this style, although it belongs to the genre ArtRock/ExperimentalRock, it is not to be confused with the style ProgRock.

Of course, we can all agree to disagree on everything, and each of us can have a personal classification of music genres and styles.
No problem, but then, again, some kind of argumentation is needed if one wants to redefine what is commonly accepted. Because, as I see it, Andre's definition corresponds to the wide (common) definition accepted. ;)

[Rare Bird]

In my humble opinion, it is much simpler if we all refer to the music genres as they are broadly defined in magazines/specialized sites (AMG etc)/encyclopedias/wikipedia whatever you like.
All these places agree on the definition of what is Progressive Rock, as well as on all the other genres/styles of music, popular or not. So why not refer to this information ?

On Prog Rock, these sites agree that the style ended in the seventies.
Since the eighties, there is another style called Neo-Prog. But this style, although it belongs to the genre ArtRock/ExperimentalRock, it is not to be confused with the style ProgRock.

Of course, we can all agree to disagree on everything, and each of us can have a personal classification of music genres and styles.
No problem, but then, again, some kind of argumentation is needed if one wants to redefine what is commonly accepted. Because, as I see it, Andre's definition corresponds to the wide (common) definition accepted. ;)

Dimitri

It's very important to me anyway to pigeon hole early prog bands into sub sectors because all too often people are calling these new bands just prog..Some cuckoo's tend to do this a lot..It's an embaressment to associate these inferior imposters with prog

[anthonyTD]

hi andre,
please can you define for me a paticular band, time, and track that for you epitomises true prog rock at its best.:)
A...

[Rare Bird]

Thats a tough one as there's many but i'll go with mi best mates

Emerson, Lake & Palmer - The Barbarian - 1970

[The Grand Wazoo]

Thats a tough one as there's many but i'll go with mi best mates

Emerson, Lake & Palmer - The Barbarian - 1970

PAoKvb2EY1k

[Rare Bird]

Recorded at the Lyceum Theatre,London 9th Dec 1970

[John]

I am not calling bands like Tool and Pain of Salvation Prog rock but I am saying they are progressive
Andre I too at times find you passion sometimes quite aggressive sometimes it seems you take it way to personal. I happen to love jazz fusion a lot more than I enjoy prog rock but enjoy some prog rock as well
What I do not say is one band or style is better than another its to subjective I want people to celbrate what they enjoy rather than put down what they do not

[Jonboy]

Thats a tough one as there's many but i'll go with mi best mates

Emerson, Lake & Palmer - The Barbarian - 1970


Now theres a band i have actually heard of :ner:

i'm trying my best with this prog rock stuff, but the jury is still out though

[Rare Bird]

Andre I too at times find you passion sometimes quite aggressive sometimes it seems you take it way to personal.


Sorry John already appologised earlier for that..It's more of a religion to me, if someone took my prog CD's away from me i would top myself.




What I do not say is one band or style is better than another its to subjective I want people to celbrate what they enjoy rather than put down what they do not

Sorry again but in my view i see all other music inferior ;)

[Themis]

I am not calling bands like Tool and Pain of Salvation Prog rock but I am saying they are progressive
But I believe they are ! They belong to the Progressive Metal style. ;)

I think there is some misunderstanding here :
The Art Rock (also called Experimental or Progressive) style is divided in:
* Prog-Rock
* Kraut Rock
* Noise-Rock
* Neo-Prog
* Experimental Rock
* Canterbury Scene
* Avant-Prog
The Hard Rock is divided in (among others) :
* Alternative Metal
* Progressive Metal
* Symphonic Black Metal

All of these can be called "Progressive", and they ARE progressive one way or another.
Which doesn't mean that a "Progressive Metal" style group can belong in the "Prog-Rock" style (or Neo-Prog, for that matter, or whatever).

Perhaps the misunderstanding comes from the "Progressive" word ? :scratch:

[Rare Bird]

O my god Dimitri what have u done

[John]

Well I never heard an ELP album I could listen to all the way through I happen to like only 3 Yes albums and know 2 of them you will dislike;)
Thanks for the apology

[John]

But I believe they are ! They belong to the Progressive Metal style. ;)

I think there is some misunderstanding here :
The Art Rock (also called Experimental or Progressive) style is divided in:
* Prog-Rock
* Kraut Rock
* Noise-Rock
* Neo-Prog
* Experimental Rock
* Canterbury Scene
* Avant-Prog
The Hard Rock is divided in (among others) :
* Alternative Metal
* Progressive Metal
* Symphonic Black Metal

All of these can be called "Progressive", and they ARE progressive one way or another.
Which doesn't mean that a "Progressive Metal" style group can belong in the "Prog-Rock" style (or Neo-Prog, for that matter, or whatever).

Perhaps the misunderstanding comes from the "Progressive" word ? :scratch:

I hate all this genre stuff its horrible and then sub genres ahhhhhhhhh I know for most people it helps but on the whole I see this creative death
Listen to Be by POS tell me its not Progressive and tell me its progressive metal and I will disagree on both counts Note I have not called POS prog rock

I repeat POS are progressive in nature every album has seen some musical change in direction I have some prog metal friends that dislike POS because of this and will only listen to the first 4 albums

If you listen to the first Dream Theater album and not hear YES influnces on tracks like Status Seeker then listen again Prog metal has more direct influnces from metal but I heard Dream Theater do tributes to Pink Floyd and Yes so its style that does take some influnces from prog rock However I do not call it prog rock

[Spectral Morn]

I agree with Andre in so much that many later and contemporary bands have copied earlier bands...what we nearly have and in some cases have, are tribute bands. There is unfortunately very little new under the sun. Most music is a reworking of earlier influences or whole-sale coping.

If I was asked to point to a genuine progressive band,(in the sense of boundary pushing) today I would struggle to do so...though in many ways Iceland's Sigor Ros comes close. Their music is challenging, boundary pushing and at times almost noise....however at its best it is wonderful on every level.

The twee music of the 50's (though boundary and culturally challenging at the time) was swept away by the late 60's and early 70's music in terms of creativity...however as with all movements of creativity, the music industry grabbed hold, and tried to seek out or create their own examples. The freshness of the early bands Andre loves was raped for greed imho. However in saying all of that, if you like music (whether it has worth artistically or is movement forming) that really is down to you and if you love it and others don't well thats their loss and your gain.

I for one love it when someone like Andre comes along (though not the occasional Victor Meldrew grumpiness-though I can be grumpy too..just ask my wife)and educates me about music I knew nothing about. So Andre keep up the listing in "What are you listening to today" and elsewhere, but please try and understand not every one gets or understands your views and be a wee bit more tolerant...count to 50 or so ;):)

Regards D S D L

[Themis]

I hate all this genre stuff its horrible and then sub genres ahhhhhhhhh I know for most people it helps but on the whole I see this creative death
Listen to Be by POS tell me its not Progressive and tell me its progressive metal and I will disagree on both counts

I repeat POS are progressive in nature every album has seen some musical change in direction I have some prog metal friends that dislike POS because of this and will only listen to the first 4 albums

If you listen to the first Dream Theater album and not hear YES influnces on tracks like Status Seeker then listen again Prog metal has more direct influnces from metal but I heard Dream Theater do tributes to Pink Floyd and Yes so its style that does take some influnces from prog rock However I do not call it prog rock
I understand that this genre/style/sub-style stuff is boring... but, then, we need to put words on each thing and if we don't agree on the basics commonly used... what can we do ? Re-discuss this from the beginning ? Start analyzing each group and album to come to a compromise ? :scratch:

I understand that each and every band and each and every song has multiple influences, but then, this is not enough to classify an album (let alone a group).

I mean, if I listen to "The clap" from The Yes Album, should I say that Yes is a Latin Folk group ? ;)

[John]

good point this is why I hate genres its to limting but as I said before I understand why people use it but do not like it
While I would tend to agree prog rock died sometime around 76/78 this does not mean progressive music died. Good bands will often take chances and find new ways to express ideas

[Themis]

While I would tend to agree prog rock died sometime around 76/78 this does not mean progressive music died. Good bands will often take chances and find new ways to express ideas
Exactly ! :) And I would add : fortunately for all the Progressive music lovers !

Well, ok, Andre will not agree, but then, again : fortunately we don't all like exactly the same things ! Life would be boring, otherwise... :cool:

And I would add, that people like Andre are very precious in the "insight" they have in a specific style : no-one masters their favorite style more than them (I apologize in advance to Andre, I know he masters more than just "prog-rock" ;)).
I mean, compared, I've no clue about this style, although it is my favorite.

[Beechwoods]

Sub-Genre's are, IMHO, a marketing ploy whose best purpose is in identifying bands the sound like someone you know. For me, the prog I like seems pretty specific - Canterbury themed primarily, early to mid-70's. I've been caught out by recommendations lumping other bands (like Lard Free) in with the Canterbury scene (or genre) ... and think about how Ozrics and Hawkwind so often get pigeonholed together :confused:

Metal is hilariously sub-classified. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_heavy_metal_genres Reading some blogs, who thrive on this, some bands have the honour of straddling umpteen different genres within one song. I feel the same sniffiness when it comes to trying to classify prog. By its very nature it was a broad church, IMO.

[anthonyTD]

Thats a tough one as there's many but i'll go with mi best mates

Emerson, Lake & Palmer - The Barbarian - 1970
thanks andre,
well, at least i now have a bench mark with which to relate to in the future as far as prog rock is concerned, not sure its to my taste, but i appreciate the genius behind it.:)
A...

[Rare Bird]

thanks andre,
well, at least i now have a bench mark with which to relate to in the future as far as prog rock is concerned, not sure its to my taste, but i appreciate the genius behind it.:)
A...

ELP were the bee's Knee's..Far more raw, powerful & exciting on stage than Yes & Genesis, they were asleep in comparison..The phrase 'Supergroup' was invented for ELP...One thing you did get was your money's worth..



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0v4FkWyHwyU

[anthonyTD]

hi andre,
i have seen that keith emerson solo, or one like it before, i remember thinking at the time, how the hell he didnt get electrocuted!:lolsign:
i suspect the techies in those days were kept pretty busy!:eyebrows:
A...

[Joe]

ELP were the bee's Knee's..Far more raw, powerful & exciting on stage than Yes & Genesis, they were asleep in comparison..The phrase 'Supergroup' was invented for ELP...

Surely it was invented for Blind Faith?

[DanJennings]

Surely it was invented for Blind Faith?

What about Cream?

[Joe]

The term came in after Cream was formed.

[Rare Bird]

Hi Anthony

The 'L100' was slightly modified for the job, the pedal board had been removed, The only real threat of shock would be from the tube power amp in the back bottom right hand corner, You might notice Keith always wears long boots ;) .. The tubes would have had to be clamped down..The crashing sound you hear is the spring reverb at the back bottom left hand corner...The Hammond 'L100' was a tone wheel organ, was a pretty stable sounding unit mainly due to the fact it had an auto start Syncro motor attached to the tone generator..The daggers he uses to sustain notes were given to keith by Ian Kilmister (Lemmy of Hawkwind & later Motorhead fame) years before when keith was in the Nice, Ian used to be Keith's Roadie.

[Rare Bird]

Surely it was invented for Blind Faith?

You could call any group made up of musicians from other top bands a supergroup but i'm talking a Supergroup here not just member wise :lol:

[Joe]

I'm saying that the press invented the term 'Supergroup' to describe Blind Faith, who were formed before ELP were formed, that's all. No judgement is intended on the artistic merit or otherwise of either group.

[Rare Bird]

I'm saying that the press invented the term 'Supergroup' to describe Blind Faith, who were formed before ELP were formed, that's all. No judgement is intended on the artistic merit or otherwise of either group.

Yeh i know, they also said if they wernt so short lived they would have been a supergroup..the Term 'Supergroup' was generally seen documented in the early '70's ELP were seen to be the first propar supergroup. ;)

12th paragraph down

http://www.carlpalmer.com/carl-bio.html

[anthonyTD]

Hi Anthony

The 'L100' was slightly modified for the job, the pedal board had been removed, The only real threat of shock would be from the tube power amp in the back bottom right hand coner, You might notice Keith always wears long boots ;) .. The tubes would have had to be clamped down..The crashing sound you hear is the spring reverb at the back bottom left hand corner...The Hammond 'L100' was a tone wheel organ, was a pretty stable sounding unit mainly due to the fact it had an auto start Syncro motor attached to the tone generator..The daggers he uses to sustain notes were given to keith by Ian Kilmister (Lemmy of Hawkwind & later Motorhead fame) years before when keith was in the Nice, Ian used to be Keith's Roadie.

thats interesting andre,
i did suspect that most of the crashing sounds were coming from a spring reverb unit, i seem to remember however on another video keith seemingly pulling things out of the back of one organ whilst still playing it!
i suspect you know which one that was.
regards,anthony,TD...

[Rare Bird]

i seem to remember however on another video keith seemingly pulling things out of the back of one organ whilst still playing it!
i suspect you know which one that was.
regards,anthony,TD...

Hi yes it's the Spring reverb he's pulling on, he's not pulling anything out!...Same one as this, here in the clip

Here goes this one has been unbolted from the bottom left corner of the organ

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Keith used to fart about plucking the strings under a piano aswell, he was a right owd plucker ;) ..You can hear/see this on 'Take A Pebble' track below from first album...

OkX7ugqKy2Y

[anthonyTD]

well,,, they were certainly entertaining to watch!:)
A...

[The Grand Wazoo]

............what with that & setting fire to the Stars & Stripes - all good clean family entertainment!

[Rare Bird]

............what with that & setting fire to the Stars & Stripes - all good clean family entertainment!

:lol: Don't worry a lot were against the US involvement in Vietnam.What better than another band to put forward the message..

[Jonboy]

I bought this today after listening to one of your recommendations Andre, all i've got to do is set up a TT to play it on:)

http://i419.photobucket.com/albums/pp272/jonboy_01/DSC_0106.jpg

[Spectral Morn]

I bought this today after listening to one of your recommendations Andre, all i've got to do is set up a TT to play it on:)

http://i419.photobucket.com/albums/pp272/jonboy_01/DSC_0106.jpg

For me, like with King Crimson, ELP's first album is their best one imho.

Regards D S D L

[Jonboy]

For me, like with King Crimson, ELP's first album is their best one imho.

Regards D S D L

I have downloaded King Crimson, in the court of, and had it on as background music even my wife quite liked it!! but i will have to have a good listen to really get to know it, i have listened to ELP stuff like Lucky man and Fanfare for a comman man which everybody knows many years ago as my brother being 8 years older than me educated me to a lot of 70's stuff, but i'm afraid i'm a die hard 80's man at heart (my era) and i'm currently listening to Ministry of Sound 80's triple cd at the moment (sorry Andre):o

[Themis]

Anybody knows this ?
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/415LJ%2BmtuSL._SL500_AA240_.jpg

[Spectral Morn]

Anybody knows this ?
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/415LJ%2BmtuSL._SL500_AA240_.jpg

Nope...nice cover, but that means nothing....though I have been known to buy Dance music by how the cover looks, and I have been blessed with great albums and only a few I didn't like. Hybrids Sci-Fi Mornings was one picked this way as was Afterlife Lounge by Afterlife (Steve Miller), both stunning.


Regards D S D L

[Rare Bird]

For me, like with King Crimson, ELP's first album is their best one imho.

Regards D S D L

right pile of shit, been better with a tears for fears album ;)

[Spectral Morn]

right pile of shit, been better with a tears for fears album ;)

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::cool:

Happy Christmas Andre...and hoping you have a much better 2010.


Regards D S D L

[Rare Bird]

Anybody knows this ?
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/415LJ%2BmtuSL._SL500_AA240_.jpg

Can i just say it's nothing to do with the old Anno Domini who made one album in 1971 called ' On This New Day' ;)

[John]

Yes I know them they are a Polish band think Porcupine Tree with better vocalist and at times slightly heavier edge but only slightly
My own fav Is Out of Myself They are worth seeing live The new one (pic shown) is my least favourite but others really like it. It has a bit more of 70s feel to it and my advice would be to get it on the higher quality audio format

[Beechwoods]

think Porcupine Tree with better vocalist

I always thought Steve Wilson's vocals let PT down. Methinks I'll add 'em to the list and check them out of the holiday season.

[John]

rPhOZdvwjBk

[Themis]

I think I will give a serious listen to this band. My son will love it, that's for sure. ;)

[Rare Bird]

whats this a plot to destroy a prog topic

:steam:

[John]

Riverside are Prog related

[Rare Bird]

there about as prog as jim reeves

[Themis]

whats this a plot to destroy a prog topic

:steam:

:sofa:

[Themis]

The album that made me really love Prog was Tarkus... :o

[John]

They maybe not prog rock of the 70s but there major influnces come from that genre I would agree not the most orginal band but they create songs with good melodies and a good live act
Andre me and you will never agree with this
Its the season of good will so lets no go down this road again

[Beechwoods]

Thread drift is a way of life on AOS anyway, Andre, don't take it personally!

[Rare Bird]

me? never

[The Grand Wazoo]

Tarkus was the album that made me listen to ELP back then. I bought it on a complete whim & (mostly) enjoyed it from the first play.

Y'see Andre, I've nothing against ELP as a band (though I think Keith Emerson's an arrogant tw*t and they went downhill fast).

Thread drift is good!!

[Rare Bird]

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::cool:

Happy Christmas Andre...



Yeh you too..Could you at all get the darleks to excersize early prog domination (non a new sub genre, ie: Skaro-prog please)? turn all others into pigmen that dislike..

[Rare Bird]

(though I think Keith Emerson's an arrogant tw*t and they went downhill fast).



He is i've seen on occasion no tolerance with other band members while practicing, if their having a laugh or two...

Simple as this, after the 2 year 'Brain Salad Surgery' world tour they were done for, nothing after BSS intrests me.

btw: Greg Lake at first refused to entertain the ideas put forward to him for Tarkus...

[Rare Bird]

Deram Records 1969 ;)

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a222/LIVING-SIN/Progg.jpg

[Barry]

John Mayall, Savoy Brown, Keef Hartley progressive music!!!??? Not in my book.

Regards

[REM]

Every thing was "progressive" in 1969, unless it was 'The Archies' of course.....

[The Grand Wazoo]

Hehehe........Ralph, you little tinker, you!!
Even Count Basie?

http://img15.nnm.ru/9/d/9/c/6/6d04f472fedc6742e0bf949df3c_prev.jpg

[Rare Bird]

John Mayall, Savoy Brown, Keef Hartley progressive music!!!??? Not in my book.

Regards

True don't alter the fact the word Progressive was in circulation back then

[REM]

Hehehe........Ralph, you little tinker, you!!
Even Count Basie?



Got it in one Chris, Basie the Count of Prog:lol: