View Full Version : Denon 103, 103R, 301 &c
Hi -
I'm wondering if anyone has much opinion on the difference between the 103 and 301.
I think the 301 is going to be an easier fit for my arm (Thorens TP13A) but am also pretty sure I can fettle it to work with the much lower compliance 103.
My plan was to get a 103 and in time do the wood body then the retip upgrades, but looking at the compliance has made me think I might be better off with the 301. Anyone know if you can do a wood body upgrade on the 301?
I'm fully aware of all the SUT shenanigins, but at this stage I just want to have some help making the decision on the cart as I am experiencing choice paralysis.
[Looking around the web it seems there are a few people who have had success with a 103 on this old arm/deck. There is also no solid info about the mass of the TP13A anywhere online. Best guesses seem to put this as a medium mass arm, possibly in the 11-14g range.]
Robert
hifi_dave
12-12-2016, 17:54
Not sure the arm is up to the job.
Not sure the arm is up to the job.
Up to the job of being an arm at all, or specifically for the carts I have mentioned?
walpurgis
12-12-2016, 18:47
I've owned each cartridge. I'd sooner have the 301 than the 103, but would have the 103R over either of those. I agree with Dave, the arm is doubtful. It may just about be OK with the 301, which is a bit less arm fussy than the 103's.
Hi -
I'm wondering if anyone has much opinion on the difference between the 103 and 301.
I think the 301 is going to be an easier fit for my arm (Thorens TP13A) but am also pretty sure I can fettle it to work with the much lower compliance 103.
My plan was to get a 103 and in time do the wood body then the retip upgrades, but looking at the compliance has made me think I might be better off with the 301. Anyone know if you can do a wood body upgrade on the 301?
I'm fully aware of all the SUT shenanigins, but at this stage I just want to have some help making the decision on the cart as I am experiencing choice paralysis.
[Looking around the web it seems there are a few people who have had success with a 103 on this old arm/deck. There is also no solid info about the mass of the TP13A anywhere online. Best guesses seem to put this as a medium mass arm, possibly in the 11-14g range.]
Hi Robert,
The DL-103 is somewhat my specialist subject - I know these babies inside out! :)
I'm pretty unfamiliar with your arm, so can't really comment on its efficacy with the cartridges you mention, although what I will say, in terms of the 'vanilla 103', is if you can successfully add the right amount of mass to the headshell, the otherwise 'lossy' construction of the arm's design should suit it well, providing you can get the cartridge to physically fit into the headshell, as it's quite big.
Sonically, in comparison with the 103R, to my ears, the latter sounds cooler, tonally, and somewhat more 'hi-fi'. It majors on producing a bright and punchy sound, full of vim and vigour, but it can, in some systems, become a little overbearing in its 'eagerness' to major on clarity. The 'vanilla 103' possesses similar traits, in terms of it being a 'fun listen', but is a subtly smoother performer, with an overall more 'organic', less 'showy' sound, with superb bass and midrange alacrity.
For me, if your system doesn't need the added 'treble sparkle' and energetically projected midrange of the 103R, the standard 103 is a more musical listen, especially over long periods of time and with recordings that are less than perfect.
The 301 is a totally different beast. It's a superb all-rounder, and whilst doesn't have the low-end 'slam' or expansiveness of either version of 103, although it is no slouch in this area, it trumps them in terms of overall resolution and detail retrieval, but still packs plenty of punch and possesses a lovely lucid and communicative midrange. It's a little more Audio-Technica like in its sonic and musical presentation than the average Denon, so you might prefer that.
As ever, much will depend on the type of sound you're looking for and how well the cartridge marries, not only with your arm, but also your phono stage. The 301, being slightly higher output than either of the 103s, will be easier to accommodate in that respect, and also won't need 'nannying', in terms of mass, like the 103s.
Hope that helps! :cool:
Marco.
I have had just the same considerations regarding these cartridges as yourself but after consulting with Marco I chose to go down the 301 route as it was a much easier match compliance wise with my tonearm and probably the easier cartridge to get the best out of without too much faff.
I bought the Denon 301 Mk2 which is widely available for around £200 and it has been a joy to use. Set up was a doddle and it was a easy cartridge to find a suitable SUT or head amp to match. It tracks like a limpet and is very forgiving of poorer condition records. It has a full rich and very smooth sound with a sophisticated top end, not bright or etched but detailed.
CornishPasty
13-12-2016, 20:07
I've had a few 103s and a 301 which I liked a lot but I found the 110 hard to beat. Comes with a decent stylus and no step up required. I've just bought another as a stop gap until I can afford to get my Benz Ace retipped and I'm not disappointed. I would think that given its beefy cantilever and its price point Denon didn't envisage it being used on esoteric tonearms so I see no reason why it wouldn't work in that Thorens tonearm.
Johnnie7
13-12-2016, 20:34
out the 2 carts the 301 may be better suited
but ideally get a better arm to get most from cartridge
Yo Johnnie,
Howz it going, dude? Good to see you checking in again! Hope you're well and kept busy :cool:
Marco.
Hey thanks to everyone who has responded to this, I've not been ungrateful I've just been on planes the past 24hrs or so!
I'll respond properly soon! Leaning towards the 301 though...
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Hey thanks to everyone who has responded to this, I've not been ungrateful I've just been on planes the past 24hrs or so!
Good, otherwise we'd have been talking about you! ;)
Marco.
I think I'm probably going to get a 301, but am far away from my tt so this is going to be a new year thing...
What arm would you recommend for the Thorens 150, Johnnie? I seem to remember talking to you on the phone a year or so ago and you told me the SME3009 I was considering wasn't going to be a worthwhile quality increase...
R
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A DL-301 mk2 is turning up tomorrow.
I am very impatient indeed!
There is a pair of these ready to try it out with:
glasshouse SUTs (http://www.hificollective.co.uk/transformers/glasshouse/moving-coil-stepup.html)
:guitar:
I could not find a decent 301Mk2 when I looked, so ended up buying a Techne-Audio DL-103, which I am very happy with.
I would love to hear the 301 and a DL-S1 at some point.
I could not find a decent 301Mk2 when I looked, so ended up buying a Techne-Audio DL-103, which I am very happy with.
I would love to hear the 301 and a DL-S1 at some point.
The DL-S1 is in a league of its own, very impressive!
anubisgrau
12-01-2017, 16:20
I think I'm probably going to get a 301, but am far away from my tt so this is going to be a new year thing...
What arm would you recommend for the Thorens 150, Johnnie? I seem to remember talking to you on the phone a year or so ago and you told me the SME3009 I was considering wasn't going to be a worthwhile quality increase...
if you plan to use 103/301, then go for the heaviest denon arm you can fit on 150. ideally for 103 it should be a 12" long DA-308, or if on budget, a 10" long DA-309, both japanese broadcast standard products and fantastic match for 103/103R.
but you need lots of hassle and rework of the 150 plinth to get it go. as you are not ready to do so, than here's your next tonearm - a 9" DA-305
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rundfunk-Denon-Tonarm-DA-305-Tone-Arm-Japan-HiFi-Vintage-/252682812445?hash=item3ad511bc1d:g:5roAAOSwImRYKfx z
this is 244mm long one so with 14mm overhang it gives you just about a perfect 9" for your 150. just make sure you can make a proper armboard for it, not sure what hole denon needs.
not sure if you can beat this arm at the price for 103, especially if you want to stick with the era look. this one is from mid 70s, ok little younger than your deck but not much....:=)
mind that you will not hear what can denon 103 without an arm built for it (a 12" broadcast denon) and a shorter one is the nearest you can get. forget about anything british, SME, rega etc.
I bought a 301, mainly because the numbers seemed like it was spot on for the arm I have.
but thanks for the tips anyway!
:)
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The DL-S1 is in a league of its own, very impressive!
I have read a review where the guy who owns one prefers his AT33PTG/II. :scratch:
Firebottle
12-01-2017, 17:33
How do you find the comparison between the AT33PTG and the 103 Kevin?
The AT possibly more open, the 103 more 'boogie'?
I have not done a back to back. I have been using my EPC-205 and AT95SA recently.
My 103 has plenty of boogie factor, with good detail thrown in, probably due to the Shibata.
It's a shame you have moved back to the UK, as it would have been interesting running a comparison of the two.
I was not expecting to win the cartridge - the body alone is €125. Makes it a bit of a bargain really.
I have read a review where the guy who owns one prefers his AT33PTG/II. :scratch:
Yes I read that but as with all MC cartridges it depends on how it is set up, what arm/ headshell/ SUT......etc is used.
Marco had his set up spot on and it was awesome. Not heard the AT33PTGii for very long so hard to make a comparison.
I have heard a lot if MC cartridges and I would say Marcos DL-S1 was the best I have heard, probably due to fanatical attention to detail in setting it up.:lol:
I have (had) an aluminium bodied 103 r, used in the Jelco 750d arm, needs the heavy counterweight variation for this, ALLY BODY provides the extra mass i suppose.
very clear with good top and bottom extension, good tracking.
dropped it when changing headshell for MM, broke cantilever, Debating (fix or not.)?
tlscapital
13-01-2017, 10:27
Second that : Fix !
Second that : Fix !
thanks for advice, will do,
where any advice?
walpurgis
13-01-2017, 15:56
Try Goldring. They repair other makes and have a decent reputation. However, it would probably be cheaper just to find another DL-103R second hand. In my opinion, having the DL-103R repaired may only be worthwhile if you opt for a decent line contact diamond tip. That way the outlay could possibly be justified. I think Goldring could probably mount one of the Geiger tips they use on their Eroica MC. That should be good.
I have read a review where the guy who owns one prefers his AT33PTG/II. :scratch:
Judging from the very low output of the DL-S1, it seems it probably has non-magnetic cores in the coils. I think the "common wisdom" says this usually results in great transparency and nuances with the possible downside being less punch or meat. But then again, the Pioneer PC-70MC also had non-magnetic cores and I can't say it lacked any punch or body, so... But the AT33PTG/II is certainly no slouch (and probably easier to optimize due to having a more healthy voltage output) so I wouldn't be surprised someone prefers it to the Denon. Haven't heard the DL-S1 myself, but if I had unlimited funds it'd certainly be one of those cartridges I'd like to own.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170121/705d99a74e15ff5dbbed1648bbe68b2b.jpg
I was looking at that photo I just uploaded, and thinking that the new cart is running very very low indeed. That is with recommended vtf of 1.4g. Here is another shot with the force set at a super low 0.6g or so, which to me like a lot more normal ride height.
Is the 301 just a very low rider, or have I got one that never passed Denon QC?
(Saying that, should there be a QC but of documentation in the box? I know the 103 comes with a hand written output thing...)
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170121/eabed1a98d4c14c95b17847d68a21f2b.jpg
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I was looking at that photo I just uploaded, and thinking that the new cart is running very very low indeed. That is with recommended vtf of 1.4g. Here is another shot with the force set at a super low 0.6g or so, which to me like a lot more normal ride height.
Is the 301 just a very low rider, or have I got one that never passed Denon QC?
(Saying that, should there be a QC but of documentation in the box? I know the 103 comes with a hand written output thing...)
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170121/eabed1a98d4c14c95b17847d68a21f2b.jpg
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Your second photo looks like mine when I had it set up but it is quite a low rider.
Your second photo looks like mine when I had it set up but it is quite a low rider.
Do you agree that the first pic looks way too low? Here's another of it at the proper vtf...sitting on a couple of cds for a mirror surface effect...
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170121/0b621b9336133cde7beaacca6c17bd91.jpg
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Low-riding is standard with a 301, Robert, so worry not - I've had experience of many of them! Most important thing is how does it sound, and are you pleased with the results? :)
Marco.
Low-riding is standard with a 301, Robert, so worry not - I've had experience of many of them! Most important thing is how does it sound, and are you pleased with the results? :)
Marco.
Yes I think it sounds good. Still listening... Not fully broken in yet. Haven't experimented with +/-g yet.
It's really low though! I mean it's almost touching... That last pic I posted is with crazy low vtf, to illustrate how I think it probably should look...
When you say it's usual that it's low, do you mean REALLY low?
I'll take a better picture tomorrow.
Yes, your cartridge is 100% normal. All the 301s I've used/seen have been low-riders, due to their somewhat 'soft' suspension.
Marco.
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