View Full Version : Golden Rules of Hi-Fi?
walpurgis
09-12-2016, 10:26
Are there basic Golden Rules when it comes to Hi-Fi?
Here are a few thoughts.
If you can't think of any item you need, but have a bit of cash. Don't go looking, 'cos sure enough that 'essential thing' that you didn't even know you needed will be out there!
Never take family or friends along when buying equipment, they'll know less about it than you and lead you astray!
Valves are no better than solid state............True, but they tend to have a different character.
Passive pre-amps are great............Well not always, but they are usually a cheaper option.
NO FUZZY ENDED SPEAKER CABLES!!...........Unless of course you intend to blow your amplifier up. I've seen no end of other folks systems with frayed cable ends just looking for a chance for that 'sticky out' bit of wire to short out.
Turntables. Idler is best? Direct Drive is best? Belt drive is best? Well no basically. There are good and bad of each type.
Yes, you can buld a decent speaker of your own without a computer. Despite the insistence on computer modelling by the 'Tech Bods' these days. The main condition being, the more info you have, the better. Remember, many of the favourite classic speakers were designed long before PCs came along.
No dusting near the turntable......EVER!! This is frequently fatal to expensive styli.
I guess that with a bit more time I could make this list a lot longer. Anybody got more ideas?
Ali Tait
09-12-2016, 10:29
To listen, you need to turn it on first. :-)
Dont go messing about inside equipment. There are deadly voltages in there, and you at very least may screw the unit up, unless you know what youre doing.
Also make sure equipment is properly fused and earthed if both are necessary. If in doubt find out
walpurgis
09-12-2016, 10:36
If you have cats. Protect your speaker grilles!
Ifvyou have a wife, pay here off with shoe money:lol:
RobbieGong
09-12-2016, 11:16
If you dont know where you want to go with it or how far, you may well end up unfullfilled, going round in circles, for a very long time AND very skint ! :D - seriously ! :(
Gordon Steadman
09-12-2016, 11:25
Stop playing with the toys and start listening to the sodding music:)
1) Spend enormous amounts of money never really getting there. Ever.:D
2) Keep swapping bits of kit in and out achieving 1) above.
Antinchip
09-12-2016, 12:41
Trust reviews in the media.
Ask someone else what sounds best.
Once you've found a system/sound you're happy with, stop reading the mags/forums. Advice I never follow, but which I should have done.
Trust reviews in the media.
Ask someone else what sounds best.
This.
Trust reviews in the media.
Ask someone else what sounds best.
You're right - what was I thinking!
RobbieGong
09-12-2016, 12:49
sometimes you really do have to just take a punt
Don't get worked up about it. Relaxing and letting the music flow makes it sound a whole lot better.
Don't browse eBay whilst boozing. Better still don't go anywhere near eBay even when sober.
If you make a change and it sounds good from the off don't think you have cracked it until you have listened to every single recording in your collection.
The whole game just boils down to reducing noise and distortion. Everything else you read/are told about hi-fi is absolute bollocks.
I just stopped listening to the few that sound poor and saved hassle. Rare you get everything just 101% tbh. Im close enough although other may not agree
Antinchip
09-12-2016, 13:57
Don't tell the wife about the latest new box. Wait to see how long it takes her to notice, if at all.
RobbieGong
09-12-2016, 14:08
Cause it sounds sweet doesnt mean it's 'accurate' :scratch: :eyebrows: ;)
Audio Al
09-12-2016, 14:12
Buy with your ears not you eyes ;)
Don't tell the wife about the latest new box. Wait to see how long it takes her to notice, if at all.
+1
...and get all online/ebay purchases sent to your work address, that way she may never, ever know.
RobbieGong
09-12-2016, 14:34
+1
...and get all online/ebay purchases sent to your work address, that way she may never, ever know.
Thought it was just me :lol:
Music is not a test signal
Correct your room but never your wife
"Whatever pleases you, darling" is a good time to buy electrostatics.
Go to concerts and recitals because home audio is just deception and the artists need the money
Not forgetting, " a good audio cable is one that conducts electricity"
It's all been said before
walpurgis
09-12-2016, 15:09
Go to concerts and recitals because home audio is just deception and the artists need the money
A lot of great artists are dead now, so that could be tricky.
For those into bling audio, plug in the audio and stroke the cat, not vice versa.
RobbieGong
09-12-2016, 15:12
the best gear does not hinder but gets out of the way, is seen but not heard ;)
A lot of great artists are dead now, so that could be tricky.
Given download royalty rates, a lot more will be dying of starvation pretty soon.
Antinchip
09-12-2016, 15:14
the best gear does not hinder but gets out of the way, is seen but not heard ;)
The best wife ........
I'll get my coat!
If you have cats. Protect your speaker grilles!
Same goes for kids as well
One of mine managed to cut the grill on mine, right in the middle, luckily for him he didn't damage the speaker.
Bought some new material that was an exact match to what Tannoy used from my local Tandy, yes it was that long ago, but never got around to fixing it, until the other day when clearing out my loft i found it still rolled up in is packing. All done now and looking as good as new, only took me 25 years to getaroundtuit :)
Paul
Pieoftheday
09-12-2016, 15:58
If you've an itch,scratch it,(assuming you have the coin) life's too short
Bought some new material that was an exact match to what Tannoy used from my local Tandy, yes it was that long ago, but never got around to fixing it, until the other day when clearing out my loft i found it still rolled up in is packing. All done now and looking as good as new, only took me 25 years to getaroundtuit :)
That is one stupendously impressive act of procrastination.
. All done now and looking as good as new, only took me 25 years to getaroundtuit :)
Paul
25 years to get around to doing something is good going by my standards.
walpurgis
09-12-2016, 16:21
25 years to get around to doing something is good going by my standards.
About right by mine too.
fatmarley
09-12-2016, 19:32
Yes, you can buld a decent speaker of your own without a computer. Despite the insistence on computer modelling by the 'Tech Bods' these days. The main condition being, the more info you have, the better. Remember, many of the favourite classic speakers were designed long before PCs came along.
Where's Mr RFC when you need him?
I've tried to explain why loudspeaker design Is incredibly difficult without measurements and modelling software to a few people but I obviously didn't do a very good job because It went In one ear and straight out the other - but I'll give It another go...
Without measurements there's no way on this earth you will be able to tell If you've created a 2nd, 3rd or 4th order acoustic slope. Most likely It will be all over the place, the drivers wont sum together properly and your flat on-axis response (If you're lucky, that Is) will be as wonky as hell off-axis. Some music will sound great but other stuff will be terrible.
I've had the phase tracking perfect but the acoustic slope of the woofer and tweeter were all over the place. The on-axis response was flat and when I reversed the the tweeter polarity there was a nice big null (good thing) but on the odd track there was a bright harsh edge. This was when I was starting out and unfortunately all the files are long gone, so I can't find out why I was getting the harsh sounds on some music. What I do know Is that since I've been using proper crossover slopes (2nd, 3rd and 4th order). My speakers sound a lot better and I don't blame the "dull, harsh or bright sound" on a bad recording anymore because my system Is much more consistent.
I know that Peter Comeau took a hell of a long time to perfect the Heybrook HB2 crossover because he didn't have access to the technology we have today. Someone reverse engineered the crossover not so long back and found It had parts that didn't need to be there. Can't find the thread now but I'm pretty sure even Peter himself admitted the parts didn't need to be there (don't quote me on that though).
Heard some large, multi-way speakers at Scalford that were created with a simple passive crossover and just tuned by ear. They got some very good feedback after the show and I also thought they were very good playing "Fun Loving criminals" until someone asked the guy to play a CD that they had brought with them. To say they sounded rough Is an understatement. The more drivers you add, the harder It is to get them all to play nicely together.
Much wisdom in your post there Matt.
walpurgis
09-12-2016, 19:53
Where's Mr RFC when you need him?
I've tried to explain why loudspeaker design Is incredibly difficult without measurements and modelling software to a few people but I obviously didn't do a very good job because It went In one ear and straight out the other - but I'll give It another go...
Without measurements there's no way on this earth you will be able to tell If you've created a 2nd, 3rd or 4th order acoustic slope. Most likely It will be all over the place, the drivers wont sum together properly and your flat on-axis response (If you're lucky, that Is) will be as wonky as hell off-axis. Some music will sound great but other stuff will be terrible.
I've had the phase tracking perfect but the acoustic slope of the woofer and tweeter were all over the place. The on-axis response was flat and when I reversed the the tweeter polarity there was a nice big null (good thing) but on the odd track there was a bright harsh edge. This was when I was starting out and unfortunately all the files are long gone, so I can't find out why I was getting the harsh sounds on some music. What I do know Is that since I've been using proper crossover slopes (2nd, 3rd and 4th order). My speakers sound a lot better and I don't blame the "dull, harsh or bright sound" on a bad recording anymore because my system Is much more consistent.
I know that Peter Comeau took a hell of a long time to perfect the Heybrook HB2 crossover because he didn't have access to the technology we have today. Someone reverse engineered the crossover not so long back and found It had parts that didn't need to be there. Can't find the thread now but I'm pretty sure even Peter himself admitted the parts didn't need to be there (don't quote me on that though).
Heard some large, multi-way speakers at Scalford that were created with a simple passive crossover and just tuned by ear. They got some very good feedback after the show and I also thought they were very good playing "Fun Loving criminals" until someone asked the guy to play a CD that they had brought with them. To say they sounded rough Is an understatement. The more drivers you add, the harder It is to get them all to play nicely together.
I did not say it was easy, nor did I mention multi driver speakers. I did say it can be done without a PC, as was historically the case. Having built probably fifty odd (some were very odd :)) pairs of speakers. I can claim to have had some very fine results.
I'll be building another set or two soon and won't be using a computer there either, even though I do know how to.
Makes it easier, but lots of top guys do much of it by ear I believe. I just trust to luck
fatmarley
09-12-2016, 20:36
I'll be building another set or two soon and won't be using a computer there either, even though I do know how to.
When using a computer how do you find the relative acoustic centres?
Also, for modeling purposes, how do you get accurate measurements down to 20Hz?
When your speakers aren't time aligned, how do deal with the crossover to get the phase to track nicely?
walpurgis
09-12-2016, 20:37
The funny thing is, I hear many 'computer perfect' speakers that I really don't like.
Older things like Quad ESLs, good Tannoys and JBLs, big Klipsch and Altec speakers and the like, still sound superb to me.
walpurgis
09-12-2016, 20:38
When using a computer how do you find the relative acoustic centres?
Also, for modeling purposes, how do you get accurate measurements down to 20Hz?
When your speakers aren't time aligned, how do deal with the crossover to get the phase to track nicely?
Ah. 'The Spanish Inquisition' lives!
some of the greats did hit on the magic mix through sheer effort and the application of logic and intelligence. But if they were around today they would all use the computer modelling and measurement I reckon.
fatmarley
09-12-2016, 20:47
Makes it easier, but lots of top guys do much of it by ear I believe. I just trust to luck
I very much doubt the top guys do It by ear. It's only the final adjustments coupled with measurements that are done by ear. People say that Joe Acroyd designed his speakers by ear but I've reversed engineered one of his designs and now know that's a load of tosh.
Your final frequency response has to account for the off-axis response (If you have "pinching" in a certain area then It may pay to drop the level in that area a bit). Also If you have distortion It may pay to drop the level where the distortion Is. Another thing to consider Is the drivers themselves often have a wonky frequency response so a little tweaking here and there may be needed to give a subjectively nice sound.
fatmarley
09-12-2016, 20:54
The funny thing is, I hear many 'computer perfect' speakers that I really don't like.
There are so many variables that It's incredibly easy to get It wrong. Knowing how difficult It is to build a good set of speakers, combined with the fact that there Isn't a "dummies guide to building the perfect speaker from start to finish" I'm not surprised that the so called experts often get It wrong.
fatmarley
09-12-2016, 20:58
some of the greats did hit on the magic mix through sheer effort and the application of logic and intelligence. But if they were around today they would all use the computer modelling and measurement I reckon.
Agreed.
In a bid to get ever lower distortion from drivers, something had to give. Without giving too much away, a lot of those older drivers had great dynamics and a nice, live sound. With modern know how, those old classics could be made to sound even better.
walpurgis
09-12-2016, 21:09
Next project may well use these:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/L-Cao-alnico-matched-full-range-speaker-8-inches-pair-/221922939698?hash=item33aba35332:m:mOoRWbfxZD2pdVg 9zB9Iu4Q
There is no getting away from the fact that a lot of people prefer their vintage classics, designed way before computer. You still have to do your calculations, even if was like me, on the back of an envelope, no-one designs by ear alone.
Although as regards those preferring high end vintage speakers, it does call into question how many modern high-end speakers they have heard, (not that I have heard many myself) - but you have to compare like with like and forget cost. What was high end in the early Seventies was not as expensive to make.
Next project may well use these:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/L-Cao-alnico-matched-full-range-speaker-8-inches-pair-/221922939698?hash=item33aba35332:m:mOoRWbfxZD2pdVg 9zB9Iu4Q
an 8 incher eh? is that all youve got:eyebrows: look quite pretty those :)
walpurgis
09-12-2016, 21:29
an 8 incher eh? is that all youve got:eyebrows: look quite pretty those :)
They are beautifully made drivers.
I'm considering a back loaded constant width quarter wave horn design similar to something Coral made in the seventies. I've built them before using coral Beta 10 drivers and the results were spectacular. The 102 db sensitivity was handy too. The L Cao specs are pretty similar to Coral and Fostex 8" units, so I should be able to work something out.
fatmarley
09-12-2016, 21:34
Next project may well use these:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/L-Cao-alnico-matched-full-range-speaker-8-inches-pair-/221922939698?hash=item33aba35332:m:mOoRWbfxZD2pdVg 9zB9Iu4Q
Looks nice on paper.
Cone Is very light, so make sure you don't get any reflections coming back through the cone. Or are you thinking of open baffle? (QTS looks nice for open baffle)
EDIT: Crossed post.
walpurgis
09-12-2016, 21:42
Looks nice on paper.
Cone Is very light, so make sure you don't get any reflections coming back through the cone. Or are you thinking of open baffle? (QTS looks nice for open baffle)
Answered above.
I have already imported a pair. These are mine.
http://i68.tinypic.com/zwye7p.jpg
Note the vents behind the rear spider, reduces compression effects.
They are beautifully made drivers.
I'm considering a back loaded constant width quarter wave horn design similar to something Coral made in the seventies. I've built them before using coral Beta 10 drivers and the results were spectacular. The 102 db sensitivity was handy too. The L Cao specs are pretty similar to Coral and Fostex 8" units, so I should be able to work something out.
hyperbolic horns??
walpurgis
09-12-2016, 22:14
hyperbolic horns??
Can't recall. It's a long time since I looked at the specs. Got a feeling it was a truncated parabolic type. Still got all the original Japanese design spec sheets tucked away, I'll have to dig them out sometime soon.
Here's an eighties (fuzzy) photo of one of the Coral Beta 10 units in its horn.
http://i67.tinypic.com/2u8b2ts.jpg
Yes. That is a pair of small supertweeters.
southall-1998
09-12-2016, 22:24
Can't recall. It's a long time since I looked at the specs. Got a feeling it was a truncated parabolic type. Still got all the original Japanese design spec sheets tucked away, I'll have to dig them out sometime soon.
Here's an eighties (fuzzy) photo of one of the Coral Beta 10 units in its horn.
http://i67.tinypic.com/2u8b2ts.jpg
Yes. That is a pair of small supertweeters.
Interesting looking speaker! What made you sell them that many years ago?
S.
walpurgis
09-12-2016, 22:34
Interesting looking speaker! What made you sell them that many years ago?
S.
As ever. More Tannoys. :lol:
southall-1998
09-12-2016, 22:37
As ever. More Tannoys. :lol:
Have you heard the modern Tannoy West Minister's?
S.
walpurgis
09-12-2016, 22:50
Have you heard the modern Tannoy West Minister's?
S.
No mate.
meant to be great drivers those Corals. interesting; should have kept em lol
walpurgis
09-12-2016, 22:58
meant to be great drivers those Corals. interesting; should have kept em lol
They were beautiful Grant. Sounded very fine.
http://i63.tinypic.com/29w3f51.jpg
Don't tell the missus that your shiny new Japanese jewel like phono cart cost more than her wedding ring.....:D
Eta- Especially when bought second hand lol
Don't tell the missus that your shiny new Japanese jewel like phono cart cost more than her wedding ring.....:D
Eta- Especially when bought second hand lol
You did that? Oops.
hifi_dave
10-12-2016, 17:21
I'll tell you a Hi-Fi Retailers golden rule - what ever you have just sold, will be needed.
I hate selling any demo stock because of this and sure enough, it happened today. Within minutes of taking the money for my demo Rega Elex-r (thank you Martin), I have a request for a demo. Likewise, I have just sold my demo Harbeth M30.1s and sure enough, have just had an e-mail request for a demo on Friday. Now, hopefully, the items will arrive this week but I'm not really sure and I hate letting people down.
It's a bugger..:doh:
Wasn't as bad as it sounds , we married 10 years ago and have more spare income now. Hers cost more than mine and she got 2 so I reckoned with inflation etc it evened up the balance ....(she didn't buy it) :confused:
I suggest those with eagle-eyed spouses get more creative:
If they spot new kit tell them you won it in a competition. Or some bloke at work gave it you for nothing.
If you didn't think it through and have a joint bank account which they check, start funnelling some of your wages off into a secret account. Say you've had a pay cut, times are hard at work etc. Anticipate the interrogation and be ready for it. You could have a fake letter ready, or something.
It's okay to lie about these things as it's a victimless crime. Like punching someone in the dark.
Ninanina
10-12-2016, 19:16
I am just glad I don't have to deal with 'spouses'
And if I did have a spouse I'd be encouraging him to spend more on hifi stuff... the new kitchen, shoes, handbags etc etc can wait :D
It's okay to lie about these things as it's a victimless crime. Like punching someone in the dark.
LOL!
I suggest those with eagle-eyed spouses get more creative:
If they spot new kit tell them you won it in a competition. Or some bloke at work gave it you for nothing.
If you didn't think it through and have a joint bank account which they check, start funnelling some of your wages off into a secret account. Say you've had a pay cut, times are hard at work etc. Anticipate the interrogation and be ready for it. You could have a fake letter ready, or something.
It's okay to lie about these things as it's a victimless crime. Like punching someone in the dark.
Lol.... Seriously though, it's amazing some of the stunts blokes will pull to sneak kit in passed their other halves. Hilarious in the extreme... Luckily, I have a 'hi-fi friendly' wife, so don't need to engage in such antics! :D
Marco.
walpurgis
10-12-2016, 20:15
My wife gave up asking or even caring, years ago.
Lol sorry I seem to have derailed the thread a bit!
Anyway another rule- There's always something else to try.
walpurgis
11-12-2016, 12:27
Lol sorry I seem to have derailed the thread a bit!
I wouldn't worry about that. I derailed it ages ago. :)
Dont have to worry about such things anymore. I can even stay up past midnight now;)
I wouldn't worry about that. I derailed it ages ago. :)
There were rails? Must have missed them.
Firebottle
11-12-2016, 13:40
Always were off the rails :D: :scratch:
Arkless Electronics
11-12-2016, 15:13
Where's Mr RFC when you need him?
I've tried to explain why loudspeaker design Is incredibly difficult without measurements and modelling software to a few people but I obviously didn't do a very good job because It went In one ear and straight out the other - but I'll give It another go...
Without measurements there's no way on this earth you will be able to tell If you've created a 2nd, 3rd or 4th order acoustic slope. Most likely It will be all over the place, the drivers wont sum together properly and your flat on-axis response (If you're lucky, that Is) will be as wonky as hell off-axis. Some music will sound great but other stuff will be terrible.
I've had the phase tracking perfect but the acoustic slope of the woofer and tweeter were all over the place. The on-axis response was flat and when I reversed the the tweeter polarity there was a nice big null (good thing) but on the odd track there was a bright harsh edge. This was when I was starting out and unfortunately all the files are long gone, so I can't find out why I was getting the harsh sounds on some music. What I do know Is that since I've been using proper crossover slopes (2nd, 3rd and 4th order). My speakers sound a lot better and I don't blame the "dull, harsh or bright sound" on a bad recording anymore because my system Is much more consistent.
I know that Peter Comeau took a hell of a long time to perfect the Heybrook HB2 crossover because he didn't have access to the technology we have today. Someone reverse engineered the crossover not so long back and found It had parts that didn't need to be there. Can't find the thread now but I'm pretty sure even Peter himself admitted the parts didn't need to be there (don't quote me on that though).
Heard some large, multi-way speakers at Scalford that were created with a simple passive crossover and just tuned by ear. They got some very good feedback after the show and I also thought they were very good playing "Fun Loving criminals" until someone asked the guy to play a CD that they had brought with them. To say they sounded rough Is an understatement. The more drivers you add, the harder It is to get them all to play nicely together.
Spot on.
Design by instruments and only then tweak by ear;) With speakers especially you really can't trust your ears at the design and development stage IME. It is amazing just how much your ears can be fooled in to thinking a speaker sounds great on a particular test track when other material shows them to sound awful!
Paul at RFC was designing speakers before he had a decent test mic. I had to take one round and show him how easy they were to use before he eventually gave in and bought one.
Before that he was using an SPL meter. Not ideal.
He's wiser now though and the speakers are good.
the "buy it now" price on ebay is AT LEAST three times what the kit is worth.
eight year olds CANNOT safely operate my stuff.....sob!!
1970s analogue tuners are best listened to with the lights off.....FACT.
NIGE.
337alant
12-12-2016, 15:38
If you have cats. Protect your speaker grilles!
And your turntables LOL
bTLgeqCaYMY
Alan
Cause it sounds sweet doesnt mean it's 'accurate' :scratch: :eyebrows: ;)
Conversely, 'cause it's accurate doesn't mean it'll sound sweet.
Arkless Electronics
12-12-2016, 16:37
Conversely, 'cause it's accurate doesn't mean it'll sound sweet.
...it's not meant to! That would be a colouration :D
Sweet is better than hard. If it sounds hard then something is wrong.
Sweet is better than hard. If it sounds hard then something is wrong.
Tell that to miss lohan
Arkless Electronics
12-12-2016, 18:03
Yes... but if it sounds sweet then something is wrong as well! No colouration is the ideal....
I,d have sweet over acurate any day. Im into enjoying music, not pissing my self off of it. If i want hard and accurate i,ll go to the mecca bingo;)
Arkless Electronics
12-12-2016, 18:10
When accurate is considered a pejorative term we may as well give up and install a fecking jukebox! The terms "hard" and "accurate" do NOT go together!
'Accurate' is what people call a hard sounding system to excuse its faults. 'That's how that recording really sounds!' err,,,,nope
nowt wrong with a good juky .. we had plenty, and some sounded damn good
They did but they were not hi-fi.
When accurate is considered a pejorative term we may as well give up and install a fecking jukebox!
The problem is, when a piece of hi-fi equipment is being described as "accurate", in reality it rarely is. It's only ever "accurate" within the realms of an individual's perception and/or the limitations of their test equipment... ;)
Marco.
They did but they were not hi-fi.
maybe i'm in wrong place, but I thought it was all about getting a great sound, not just achieving "hifi"
Hi-fi is more than just having a good tone, although that is a fundamental requirement.
SteveTheShadow
12-12-2016, 19:26
The absolute rule for me is that a system has to be enjoyable to listen to on EVERYTHING, no exceptions, no matter how "bad" the recording.
Translated - there are no bad recordings, only bad systems.
If something sounds crap, then blame your stereo.
Far too much time, hot air bluster and bullshit is used up, making excuses for crappy systems by blaming recordings.
The absolute rule for me is that a system has to be enjoyable to listen to on EVERYTHING, no exceptions, no matter how "bad" the recording.
Translated - there are no bad recordings, only bad systems.
If something sounds crap, then blame your stereo.
Far too much time, hot air bluster and bullshit is used up, making excuses for crappy systems by blaming recordings.
Agree. It isn't easy to do if you don't cheat and just smother the sound, though.
SteveTheShadow
12-12-2016, 19:51
Agree. It isn't easy to do if you don't cheat and just smother the sound, though.
Agree, it is far from easy and TBH it has taken me years to get to the stage where I can throw whatever I want at the system and it just plays it, warts 'n all without any wince inducing moments.
Agree. It isn't easy to do if you don't cheat and just smother the sound, though.
By using tone controls or a graphic equaliser? ;)
Marco.
Ninanina
12-12-2016, 19:57
My golden rules are:
If it sounds good to me I don't worry what others think about it
I don't care if a piece of hifi doesn't receive great reviews if I like it's 'sound'
Throwing money at the system doesn't always make it sound better
Steve, me too, although in my case it is still at the expense of some clarity. Getting there, though :)
Could be another rule though - if there are any wince-inducing moments, something is wrong. When I had the cat (and a worse system) he would listen with me and wince along. You would actually see him slightly react.
Which leads to the next golden rule. Use inwincible components!
walpurgis
12-12-2016, 20:56
Another Golden Rule. Get rid of everything you've not used for a year. Then you'll have enough room and money for more stuff! :)
Another Golden Rule. Get rid of everything you've not used for a year. Then you'll have enough room and money for more stuff! :)
good rule
The absolute rule for me is that a system has to be enjoyable to listen to on EVERYTHING, no exceptions, no matter how "bad" the recording.
Translated - there are no bad recordings, only bad systems.
If something sounds crap, then blame your stereo.
Far too much time, hot air bluster and bullshit is used up, making excuses for crappy systems by blaming recordings.
Well, up to a point. I have a few 'mono-reprocessed-for-stereo' recordings that sound worse the better the system, because the reprocessing bit becomes less easy to ignore.
walpurgis
12-12-2016, 23:52
Far too much time, hot air bluster and bullshit is used up, making excuses for crappy systems by blaming recordings.
That may be true. But it won't alter the fact that there are plenty of crap recordings and pressings about and they won't sound good on any system.
MrRadish
13-12-2016, 09:57
When accurate is considered a pejorative term we may as well give up and install a fecking jukebox! The terms "hard" and "accurate" do NOT go together!
I was at Scalford a few years ago and one of the contributors had a system set up with digital room correction. One of the other visitors asked him to turn it on and the mid bass got sucked out of the system, resulting in a rather cold sound. He then turned it off again and they decided to listen to the rest of the song without it. It just sounded better that way. Was the room corrected version more 'correct', or did the unaltered version provide some sort of mid-bass bump that helped cover up (psycho-acoustically) for the lack of low frequencies from the bookshelf speaker? In other words do two wrongs make a right? Does less accuracy result in something sounding more realistic?
Clifford.T Ward
13-12-2016, 10:03
You know when you have a good system
It makes poor recordings sound as good as possible
It is good enough to revieal what is on the record even the subtile bits
BUT great recordings sound great and get you involved in the record .
That may be true. But it won't alter the fact that there are plenty of crap recordings and pressings about and they won't sound good on any system.
Poor pressings, yes, but then vinyl was always a crapshoot in that regard. I'd disagree that there are plenty of poor recordings. Okay, standards do vary but there is very little out there from a major label that is truly poor, I can't think of anything at all.
The 'worst' recording I own is probably a 'best of' Sam & Dave, which I think is a re-mastered Atlantic anniversary issue. They are fairly crude recordings by 21st century standards but still perfectly listenable and enjoyable on my current set-up. I have had systems in the past that have made this album an uncomfortable/disappointing experience, though.
My five golden rules of HiFI:
1. The production / mastering is one of the most defining factors of what sounds good. You can't polish a turd, but a good HiFi *will* shred a turd. John Martyn's "Solid Air" will sound good on anything.
2. There is no such thing as source first, and there's no such thing as speakers first, synergy and the 'sum of the whole' is far more important.
3. Any opinion, review, or article about *sound* is automatically subjective. This means that one person's 'detailed' is another person's 'clinical', one person's 'rich and warm' is another person's 'wooly'.
4. You have to hear speakers in your own room to be able to form any meaningful judgement on how you'll enjoy them in the 'real world' - what can sound astonishing in one room can sound shocking in another. Aside from perhaps turntables, no other components should be room sensitive, but some can be rack sensitive.
5. Don't get too hung up on cables, they are the icing on the cake. Beware how the mind can be fooled, and how things can absolutely sound different to you when nothing has changed. Don't be afraid to blind test (with your OWN system, in your OWN room, with your OWN music).
...and a bonus one:
6. A clean record will accomplish a bigger HiFI upgrade than most component changes.
...OK, another:
7. Multibit DACs, implemented right, sound much more natural, with more dynamic contrast than delta/sigma DACs - there's a reason that there is a following for such DACs.
And the most important rule of HiFi is: don't let anyone influence how you feel about good sound. If a forum-slated Naim Nait 3 is the best sound you've heard (that forum flavour of the month sucked) then it's the best sound you've heard, period.
Arkless Electronics
14-12-2016, 16:30
IMHO the vast majority of recordings are poor! We audiophiles are a tiny percentage of music buyers and unfortunately most recordings will be made to sound as acceptable as possible on an ipod or "ghetto blaster" (or whatever the yoof of today favours...)
IMHO the vast majority of recordings are poor! We audiophiles are a tiny percentage of music buyers and unfortunately most recordings will be made to sound as acceptable as possible on an ipod or "ghetto blaster" (or whatever the yoof of today favours...)
No, that isn't right. A lot of recordings have too much compression, that is true, but it certainly isn't the 'vast majority' and in any case it doesn't apply (as much) to recordings on vinyl since it isn't possible to use as much compression when mastering for vinyl as you can on digital, ironically due to the limitations of the medium.
Of around 300 albums on CD I only have a handful that are pretty much ruined by compression, and maybe another 20 or 30 that could be better. Although most of my collection is 70s and 80s recordings so pre 'loudness wars.' I guess it would be higher percentage for someone who's collection is music produced post 1995.
The vast bulk of my CDs are pretty much as good as the master they were made from.
SteveTheShadow
14-12-2016, 21:51
IMHO the vast majority of recordings are poor! We audiophiles are a tiny percentage of music buyers and unfortunately most recordings will be made to sound as acceptable as possible on an ipod or "ghetto blaster" (or whatever the yoof of today favours...)
Why does making a recording to sound good on a portable make it "poor" ?
I have plenty of 60s Tamla Motown vinyl, that kicks serious ass.
If your dedinition of a hi-fi recording is one without any processing whatsoever, then 100% of all recordings are by definition poor and therefore not worth listening to
Why does making a recording to sound good on a portable make it "poor" ?
I have plenty of 60s Tamla Motown vinyl, that kicks serious ass.
If your dedinition of a hi-fi recording is one without any processing whatsoever, then 100% of all recordings are by definition poor and therefore not worth listening to
agree to a point. optimising a recording for a medium is logical and has been done since we had mediums. A cd is mastered different to a record and many albums get optimised for mobile playing. Hey if it sounds better it is better.
SteveTheShadow
14-12-2016, 22:20
Yep Grant, recording something then playing it back over loudspeakers is intrinsically un-hi-fi. We have to make a decision about what compromises are acceptable to us. The wider our tolerance of compromise, the more enjoyment we get out of what we listen to. Put together your system so that it plays the widest possible range of recordings in the most enjoyable manner and you can't go wrong. Part of the secret to good sound is a flat FR across the critical midrange. Any peaking will result in some recordings sounding fantastic, with palpable presence in the room, but most of your stuff sounding "off" in some manner you cant put your finger on until Cilla Black hits
"if our love ceases to BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Then its the end of my world for MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE"
Yikes! By God you'll know about it if the midrange is wrong.
Arkless Electronics
16-12-2016, 13:59
No, that isn't right. A lot of recordings have too much compression, that is true, but it certainly isn't the 'vast majority' and in any case it doesn't apply (as much) to recordings on vinyl since it isn't possible to use as much compression when mastering for vinyl as you can on digital, ironically due to the limitations of the medium.
Of around 300 albums on CD I only have a handful that are pretty much ruined by compression, and maybe another 20 or 30 that could be better. Although most of my collection is 70s and 80s recordings so pre 'loudness wars.' I guess it would be higher percentage for someone who's collection is music produced post 1995.
The vast bulk of my CDs are pretty much as good as the master they were made from.
The medium has zero to do with compression. More a case of what level is it compressed to... you wouldn't compress to permanently max volume on vinyl no. But to 70% max... yep....
In general recordings have got better but there are many from the past which are real howlers.. try "Bat out of hell" for my recommendation of worst recording by a mainstream artist on a major label;)
Even today very few recordings are of "demo quality".
Decent article on the compression, or loudness wars here (http://www.soundmattersblog.com/vinyl-vs-cd-in-the-loudness-war/).
Arkless Electronics
16-12-2016, 14:55
We've come to the point these days where some recordings are deliberately made to sound like they were recorded/being played back on dodgy equipment from the past! No doubt for "artistic" reasons or to impart "nostalgia" for an age the yoof are too young to remember.... "vinyl crackle and pop" is a common one, I also noticed on a Lilly Allen track from a few years ago now very obvious "overloading analogue tape" distortion effect added...
In chart dross nowadays it is common to hear the autotune turned up sufficient for it to give a characteristic sound to all pop vocals...
Maybe worst of all is dance type "music" in which the sound of a club PA system going into limiting and causing a "pumping" compression is deliberately added!!
Maybe we are "post fidelity"?:D
The medium has zero to do with compression. ".
Not the case, you can apply a lot more overall compression to digital playback mediums. With mastering to vinyl they are limited in the damage they can do.
Agree very few recordings are 'demo' standard, but 'demo standard' recordings tend to be bland shite that people only listening to because of the breathtakingly good production.
I prefer to listen to the music I actually like regardless of its recording/mastering quality as that is why I bought a hi-fi system in the first place.
Sabbath's first album sounds great to me and they knocked that out in a day with no fancy kit.
Arkless Electronics
16-12-2016, 15:05
Not the case, you can apply a lot more overall compression to digital playback mediums. With mastering to vinyl they are limited in the damage they can do.
Agree very few recordings are 'demo' standard, but 'demo standard' recordings tend to be bland shite that people only listening to because of the breathtakingly good production.
I prefer to listen to the music I actually like regardless of its recording/mastering quality as that is why I bought a hi-fi system in the first place.
Sabbath's first album sounds great to me and they knocked that out in a day with no fancy kit.
I stand by what I said in that the medium has little to do with the amount of compression. I think you are confusing maximum volume with compression. The most compressed I've ever heard has been on vinyl, often from the late 70's.
rigger67
16-12-2016, 15:38
Maybe we are "post fidelity"?:D
I think that we've been that way since SAW in the 80s, mate !
Arkless Electronics
16-12-2016, 16:12
I think that we've been that way since SAW in the 80s, mate !
That would be "post-taste" I reckon! Mind you I also find all "R+B" and "urban" completely execrable.... But SAW haver a lot to answer for!
I stand by what I said in that the medium has little to do with the amount of compression. I think you are confusing maximum volume with compression. The most compressed I've ever heard has been on vinyl, often from the late 70's.
nope, not confused although we may be arguing at cross purposes.
I'm talking about reducing dynamic range by adding overall compression during mastering, so the quiet bits are almost the same level as the loud bits. Pushed to its limit this can make a recording unlistenable on a good system. When mastering for vinyl it is not possible to take this to such an extreme, you can still do it enough to ruin it, though.
I prefer to listen to the music I actually like regardless of its recording/mastering quality as that is why I bought a hi-fi system in the first place.
Sabbath's first album sounds great to me and they knocked that out in a day with no fancy kit. (Macca)
Amen Macca......Boston took 8 years go release their 2nd Album.....
And it was a bit pants........COOL THE ENGINE's, being the best track. imho.
I prefer to listen to the music I actually like regardless of its recording/mastering quality as that is why I bought a hi-fi system in the first place.
Quite agree - especially the part I've highlighted.
Arkless Electronics
16-12-2016, 17:24
nope, not confused although we may be arguing at cross purposes.
I'm talking about reducing dynamic range by adding overall compression during mastering, so the quiet bits are almost the same level as the loud bits. Pushed to its limit this can make a recording unlistenable on a good system. When mastering for vinyl it is not possible to take this to such an extreme, you can still do it enough to ruin it, though.
Oh yes it is! It makes no difference what the medium is. I think maybe you are thinking in terms of max volume. I'm not. Obviously you would not compress to a mean level and then cut the record so loud as to be permanently mistracking or on the verge of it!! You would cut it to a middling level, high enough to raise it well above the noise floor of vinyl and yet not so high as to cause even a Decca to mistrack... Material thus compressed is the easiest to cut!
Spot on Baz, not much pleasure to be had, in buying an album one hates.
Status Quo - Hello...........Withstanding
)
Amen Macca......Boston took 8 years go release their 2nd Album.....
And it was a bit pants........COOL THE ENGINE's, being the best track. imho.
That's on the third album, 'Third Stage' - I quite like that record but it isn't a patch on the debut. The second album is pants, I agree.
Oh yes it is! It makes no difference what the medium is. I think maybe you are thinking in terms of max volume. I'm not. Obviously you would not compress to a mean level and then cut the record so loud as to be permanently mistracking or on the verge of it!! You would cut it to a middling level, high enough to raise it well above the noise floor of vinyl and yet not so high as to cause even a Decca to mistrack... Material thus compressed is the easiest to cut!
But when mastering for CD you can ramp the overall volume up to clipping and then to stop it clipping on dynamic peaks you compress it in mastering so there is no difference in level throughout. The advantage being that it sounds punchy and you can listen in high noise environments (in a car) without having to turn the quiet bits up to hear them. There is no point in doing this with vinyl because as you rightly say, there is a limit to how loud you can cut.
Not sure if we have anyone who actually masters who can confirm this is correct or not?
There are only three rules :
enjoy it; enjoy it and enjoy it.
It's hard to enjoy it so much when you try to listen critically all of the time. My system sounds far better with a cuppa, my crocs and a dressing gown!
Rothchild
18-12-2016, 10:41
Pre-loudness wars the general truth is that vinyl was more heavily compressed at the master than cd. CD's weren't compressed as hard because 'proper' engineering standards still existed and folk understood that there was enough dynamic range on a cd (and the noise floor is low enough) not to have to compress as much. Limiting dynamic range on vinyl is useful because it basically stops the needle jumping out of the groove on really hard transients.
Later on when digital was maturing people started making lookahead peak limiters, which allowed the signal to be jacked right up without quite clipping (notwithstanding gubbins like intersample peaks). There's also a story about the first Oasis album having been put down to DAT with the converters clipping, and that this is the 'birth' of the most recent outing of the 'loudness wars'.
That would be "post-taste" I reckon! Mind you I also find all "R+B" and "urban" completely execrable.... But SAW haver a lot to answer for!
Nowt wrong with a bit of Saw... :D
7E_U1xyK7Gw
I prefer to listen to the music I actually like regardless of its recording/mastering quality as that is why I bought a hi-fi system in the first place.
This.
Its too easy to get caught up in upgrading, fussing and worrying about your hifi kit too much.
Whats the point if your not enjoying the music?
Sure, you can tell the difference between a crap recording and a good one, but should a "good" system make good music unlistenable?
I say no.
I have bootleg Zep recordings that were recorded on a potato, but by god do they sound good!
Here's mine.
If you spend more money on your hi-fi than you do on music and going to gigs then you're doing it wrong.
If you spend more time on hi-fi forums than you spend listening to music or going to gigs then you're doing it wrong.
As long as you religiously abide by these then anything else is fair game.
I guess I'm doing it all wrong then. Although in my defence I own about 90% of the music I like already and although I rarely go to gigs anymore I attended loads when was young and worked security on loads of them too. Plus the bands I really like are either dead, split up or only tour the UK once in a blue moon and only play in soulless aircraft hangers where everyone has to sit down all the time.
I have promised to go and see a mate's band's first gig, they do mainstream rock covers, nothing original. Think that is next Feb sometime. Will need to find my bike jacket and Motorhead t-shirt before then.
I guess I'm doing it all wrong then. Although in my defence I own about 90% of the music I like already and although I rarely go to gigs anymore I attended loads when was young and worked security on loads of them too. Plus the bands I really like are either dead, split up or only tour the UK once in a blue moon and only play in soulless aircraft hangers where everyone has to sit down all the time.
I have promised to go and see a mate's band's first gig, they do mainstream rock covers, nothing original. Think that is next Feb sometime. Will need to find my bike jacket and Motorhead t-shirt before then.
Many small great festivals up and down this land ideal for discovering new music and pretty inexpensive. I always come away having discovered loads of new stuff.
Up and down the country, loads of original and great bands playing to 2 blokes and a dog in pubs. Loads of shite ones too but I tend to find loads of new music this way. The bands are always grateful when you buy their demo.
Big gigs by my favourite 'classic' artists are quickly becoming unaffordable with the astronomical ticket prices and scalpers getting all the early tickets, travel costs have gone up too so I can't do so many of them as I used to. A weekend in London for instance would cost me 300quid as a min before I've even got a ticket at the O2 or RAH.
With the possible exception of Glastonbury, which I'm doing on a tight budget next year, small and local will account for most of my live music in 2017.
Arkless Electronics
18-12-2016, 15:11
This.
Its too easy to get caught up in upgrading, fussing and worrying about your hifi kit too much.
Whats the point if your not enjoying the music?
Sure, you can tell the difference between a crap recording and a good one, but should a "good" system make good music unlistenable?
I say no.
I have bootleg Zep recordings that were recorded on a potato, but by god do they sound good!
One minute people are getting hung up on whether they can hear a difference from mains fuses and the next it's " ah who cares... as long as you can listen to the toons...." :eek::scratch:
And it is often the ones who have spent shedloads on kit who come out with it. That's the crazy old world of hi-fi.
vinyljunky
18-12-2016, 20:50
A lot of recorded material is spoilt on the mixing desk a la the Steve Wilson remixes of jethro tull aqualung
One minute people are getting hung up on whether they can hear a difference from mains fuses and the next it's " ah who cares... as long as you can listen to the toons...." :eek::scratch:
Eh?
Dunno if it's a case of 'who cares'
IMO there ARE diminishing returns at play.
Not only in Gear but also in recordings.
An extreme resolution system is often the Holy grail. Certainly was for me for.. pushing 50 years.
In direct opposition to this.. many recordings simply sound crap under a high resolution playback setup.
Bit of a kick inna teeth when that's finally realised.
Then it becomes a considered choice betwixt playback resolution ideals and actually playing/enjoying poor, but long cherished/hoarded recordings.
stairpost
21-12-2016, 13:45
Once you've found a system/sound you're happy with, stop reading the mags/forums. Advice I never follow, but which I should have done.
That's very sensible advice, don't ever look for reasons to be disatisfied with your system.
That's very sensible advice, don't ever look for reasons to be disatisfied with your system.
Indeed, someone sniffing their nose up is an ego thing, and not a sound quality thing especially when dealing with taste & preference! Just find what makes you want to keep listening to stuff long-term, everyday without getting irritated by the sound, and you're right.
Jac Hawk
29-12-2016, 21:27
1) Spend enormous amounts of money never really getting there. Ever.:D
2) Keep swapping bits of kit in and out achieving 1) above.
Well said
If you buy something used take it to the shop to have it checked out. Do it yourself if you know how to do it safely.
Recently serviced doesn't necessarily mean correctly serviced.
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