View Full Version : New system from scratch
I beg to differ, darling, after that outfit you wore on Sunday! :D
Marco.
It was worth waiting 250 posts for that one. Onezie Walpurgis.
Didn't change anything at all in my Hi-Fi for 12 years until 2011. Should have waited a couple more years, bought a Devialet and that would have been it for me.
walpurgis
08-12-2016, 22:13
I beg to differ, darling, after that outfit you wore on Sunday! :D
Marco.
Shh. The word will get about!! :eek:
Shh. The word will get about!! :eek:
Oh its already out! Well out ;)
:D
walpurgis
08-12-2016, 22:40
Oh its already out! Well out ;)
:D
You should worry, what with them frocks of yours. :eyebrows:
You should worry, what with them frocks of yours. :eyebrows:
How is this encouraging the OP to embark on audiofoolery?
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It was worth waiting 250 posts for that one. Onezie Walpurgis.
Didn't change anything at all in my Hi-Fi for 12 years until 2011. Should have waited a couple more years, bought a Devialet and that would have been it for me.
Phono stage on the 400 was really good, but not near as good as a bespoke valve single ended phono stage.
The Devialet broke the laws of Physics when I heard it and it sounded awesome....1 box you say...wot?
Trouser tremblingly impressive when I heard it, the hairshirt guys though care 5% more and go "Full Hairshirt".
Bespokes better, by a big bit, but not by anything other than "those that care" would sit up and take notice.
Pick your point of view I say, Devialet isn't the cheapest and you can get better sound for less money...
But only if you know what your looking for...and if you want a 1 box solution theres not much better than the Devialet.
What it brings to the table no-body else does and its pretty astonishing.
it gets a good name Gary, although not heard it myself.
Hold on guys with the vitriol !!!
I do have a bit of personal, I've got a nice pair of shiny shed-made amps in my loft that I can't give away.
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?45429-For-sale-Art-Audio-Concerto-monoblocks
Before that I had a silver wired 300B-xls Class A , blah blah blah amp and I lost about one third of my investment, having bought it second hand at a fair price. It also took 6 months to sell.
Those were my two valve amps, they just weren't powerful enough for the speakers I have settled upon.
I actually had the same man in shed make me a phono stage, which I still have. Resale value probably 50%. I also have a Hattor passive pre-amp, which also counts as a man in shed item.
My turntable is a one-off and had no resale value, but I'm not selling it.
Since I got into audio, the other main items I've bought and sold were:
1: A new pair of PMC speakers - 40% loss. Took 3 months to sell
2: A Linn Majik DS - lost about £100 for quick sale
3: A Linn Akurate DS - paid £2,750 and sold for the same in about 2 weeks.
4: A Linn 2200 - got my money back from dealer
5: Clearaudio turntable. Paid £1,500 and got the same back in p/x for first valve amp
6: Quad 909 monos - Cost £1,000, made £100 profit. Sold in a week
7: Quad 909 stereo - sold at £500 cost, had people biting my hand off for it
8: Naim UQ2 - pair £800, sold for £825 about 2 years later, sold in days.
9: A PS Audio DAC. Bought new, sold less 40%, but replaced with much cheaper item and cash, so quite happy. Sold in reply to a 'Wanted' add.
So at the end of the day on "mainstream" kit (mostly current items from main dealers used or ex-demo) I've made one regrettable big loss on a new pair of speakers, which I bought mainly because the wife liked the look of them and I did enjoy them for a couple of years.
However, the man in shed stuff has given me one big loss (more than on the speakers) and one item that I can't sell. The obvious reason is that the resale market is very limited to enthusiasts so the chances are that it will take ages to sell and a loss will arise. It is also a buyer's market, so the sale will be a complete pain compared the mainstream stuff that can be sold quickly and unseen.
So that's my experience for the benefit of the OP, as I was in his shoes 5 or 6 years ago. Men in shed stuff is fine, but you have to be in it for the long term and really know what you are doing.
I also don't qualify as an enthusiast as all my hifi is ugly black boxes hidden in a unit, so my criteria include running cold or lukewarm at best and the smaller the better. (see attached)
I did consider a Croft pre, but was told I could not have remote. Anyway, any system is fully balanced and I think they are line input only.
Greetings,
I just came across this thread. Here are my 2 pence:
The question is what one is trying achieve with a given budget. If the objective is to get best possible music reproduction i.e. maximise the return on investment, then one needs to think of a system as a whole.
It is not about best for the money component this or that brand based on somebody's reputation or feedback- it is about the harmony of all system components coming together and performing like one in unison.
The analogy to that is an orchestra. The sound of an orchestra can be in dissonance even with the best and most talented musicians. Since there are so many musicians (speak audio manufacturers) out there, each one having an individual style and approach to sound- one easily can derail from maximum performance even with best possible components if they not chosen wisely.
Examples: low sensitivity speakers paired with low power DHT amp or low compliance cartridge paired with low effective mass and rigid tonearm or capacitor decoupled valve output stage into low impedance transistor input etc. etc.
What I mentioned here is on the macro level as it gets more complicated on the micro level inside the equipment itself.
In short: one could easily mess up the sound by just choosing one wrong component
Slawa
Sherwood
26-01-2017, 14:01
Vinyl? Same advice I would give for smoking. If you don't already then don't start ;)
Forget brands for the moment and start from first principles. What is the room like? You need to match the speakers to the room so the room will dictate your speaker choice to a extent, the size and appearance of the speakers may matter here also, as will the sort of music you play.
Once you have the speakers decided on you will need to get amplification that is comfortable driving the speakers.
When you have room/speakers/amps sorted out then start considering the source component.
Agreed, vinyl is great but no point investing in new harware if you don't have a large software library. Yes, CDs will be around for a while to come, but I would not spend a lot on a new CD player. You can rip any CDs you own to FLAC or other lossless format and can do that any decent PC or laptop.
Your budget will allow you a wide choice and there is no reason why you should not end up with a first class system. I would do some reconnaisance work and see if you can hear a variety of systems to get a sense of what is out there. Perhaps a few AOS members close to you would host a visit so that you get a sense of the myriad choices available and what you like.
If I were starting out again with your budget I would be looking at streaming system with powerful power amp and single-driver or panel/electrostatic speakers (possibly open-baffle design too). I have realised after many years that most cabinet speakers are coloured in some way and that the best box is no box!
Geoff
Agreed, vinyl is great but no point investing in new harware if you don't have a large software library. Yes, CDs will be around for a while to come, but I would not spend a lot on a new CD player. You can rip any CDs you own to FLAC or other lossless format and can do that any decent PC or laptop.
Your budget will allow you a wide choice and there is no reason why you should not end up with a first class system. I would do some reconnaisance work and see if you can hear a variety of systems to get a sense of what is out there. Perhaps a few AOS members close to you would host a visit so that you get a sense of the myriad choices available and what you like.
If I were starting out again with your budget I would be looking at streaming system with powerful power amp and single-driver or panel/electrostatic speakers (possibly open-baffle design too). I have realised after many years that most cabinet speakers are coloured in some way and that the best box is no box!
Geoff
Unless one has acquired the taste, that is what I was talking about: if there is no clear concept - it is one approach competing against another
boxed speakers vs open back
valves vs transistors
active vs passive amplification
digital vs analogue
and many more competing
Without understanding the strengths and weaknesses of those above listed approaches one easily gets derailed into some form of dogma or another.
Building an audio system is an art and a never ending process. Therefore one needs to try a bit of everything before deciding upon which path to take.
Whatever path one chooses in the end, it is important that one matches those approaches so that there is a synergy among them
S
Sherwood
26-01-2017, 16:10
Unless one has acquired the taste, that is what I was talking about: if there is no clear concept - it is one approach competing against another
boxed speakers vs open back
valves vs transistors
active vs passive amplification
digital vs analogue
and many more competing
Without understanding the strengths and weaknesses of those above listed approaches one easily gets derailed into some form of dogma or another.
Building an audio system is an art and a never ending process. Therefore one needs to try a bit of everything before deciding upon which path to take.
Whatever path one chooses in the end, it is important that one matches those approaches so that there is a synergy among them
S
That's why I suggested a reconnaissance mission. Identify then appraise the myriad permutations!
.... and that is costly R & D process by nature
However, once one finds a path and follows it - that can be very rewarding
There is no short cut or "free lunch" here, I am afraid
Unless one coincidentally or intuitively stumbles on that path (provided one keeps an open mind i.e. avoids dogmatism)
otherwise one could end up on the way into oblivion
S
On the other hand, in terms of the learning experience, there is no substitute for making your own mistakes.
I was hoping that Dan would come back and tell us how he is getting on but it seems not. He did spark a lively debate though, so it's all good.
Sherwood
26-01-2017, 18:47
.... and that is costly R & D process by nature
However, once one finds a path and follows it - that can be very rewarding
There is no short cut or "free lunch" here, I am afraid
Unless one coincidentally or intuitively stumbles on that path (provided one keeps an open mind i.e. avoids dogmatism)
otherwise one could end up on the way into oblivion
S
As a professional economist I would ask what are the "opportunity" costs of not doing that reconnaissance. Professionally (and sadly in my personal life) any substantial investment I advise on or make for myself is underpinned by some systematic appraisal process. Typically that involves an identification of desired attributes and a scoring of each alternative on those attributes. The final step is to weight the relative importance of each attribute and to use those weights to derive a cumulative weighted score for each option which I then consider alongside the intitial purchase costs and long term costs of ownership. Of course, for simple domestic purchases like a vacuum cleaner or microwave, that can be done on the back of an envelop rather than on a spreadsheet. However, as the number of options and variables increases it is worth doing the task properly. It's not just that £6k is a hefty sum, it is that the chosen system may be in place for a decade or even longer. The R&D "costs" are essentially time costs and effectively time spent listening to music on decent systems.
An interesting side effect of this process is often, the realisation that hifi can be a relatively inexpensive hobby if own looks at the (discounted) costs of ownership over the lifetime of the equipment. That is, of course, assuming that one only buys a single system and/or sells of old equipment as new stuff is purchased! If only.......
As a professional economist I would ask what are the "opportunity" costs of not doing that reconnaissance. Professionally (and sadly in my personal life) any substantial investment I advise on or make for myself is underpinned by some systematic appraisal process. Typically that involves an identification of desired attributes and a scoring of each alternative on those attributes. The final step is to weight the relative importance of each attribute and to use those weights to derive a cumulative weighted score for each option which I then consider alongside the intitial purchase costs and long term costs of ownership. Of course, for simple domestic purchases like a vacuum cleaner or microwave, that can be done on the back of an envelop rather than on a spreadsheet. However, as the number of options and variables increases it is worth doing the task properly. It's not just that £6k is a hefty sum, it is that the chosen system may be in place for a decade or even longer. The R&D "costs" are essentially time costs and effectively time spent listening to music on decent systems.
An interesting side effect of this process is often, the realisation that hifi can be a relatively inexpensive hobby if own looks at the (discounted) costs of ownership over the lifetime of the equipment. That is, of course, assuming that one only buys a single system and/or sells of old equipment as new stuff is purchased! If only.......
Dear Geoff,
Unfortunately, it is not that simple as that. No DCF or similar type of model or systematic appraisal would be able to explain or help to make a rational and informed decision. If it only was that simple, I would not have started SW1X or it would not make sense to start one. There is a simple reason for all that: if there is a component that works in one system then there is no guarantee that it may not work that well in the other. There are simply too many exceptions to rules and anomalies in audio. No amplifier sounds the same even if they are made of identical parts in my world!
While some people do not know, other do not care and the rest simply does not have a choice.The whole industry is driven by information asymmetry - some businesses choose to take the opportunity to exploit it and business like mine employs it to educate and to inform our customers. We are dealing with reproduction of music here. That in it self is a irrational subject. We either like it or we do not.
Some of the more informed people choose to buy with their eyes, others prefer to use a spreadsheet and those who are simply love music prefer to use their ears.
I hope it all makes sense
S
walpurgis
26-01-2017, 20:43
Some of the more informed people choose to buy with their eyes, others prefer to use a spreadsheet and those who are simply love music prefer to use their ears.
I hope it all makes sense
S
Of course.
The idea of using a spreadsheet to buy Hi-Fi, is something I just can't get my head around. The mind boggles!
pgarrish
26-01-2017, 21:12
What you get when you use your heart:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/53/1e/29/531e29c3acd21058dec57e775fcf6914.jpg
What you get when you use a spreadsheet:
http://images.honestjohn.co.uk/imagecache/file/fit/730x700/media/3312519/BMW~5~Series~GT~(2).jpg
Sherwood
26-01-2017, 21:33
Of course.
The idea of using a spreadsheet to buy Hi-Fi, is something I just can't get my head around. The mind boggles!
It's very simple. No hifi is perfect at any price. Some components do some things well and other things not so well and the performance of any single component is influenced by the other components it is used with. Attributes such as tonal accuracy, detail retrieval, timing, dynamics, transient attack, imaging, bass extension and of course "musicality" are all important and relevant but being difficult to measure come down to individual subjective perceptions. Those perception vary according to the acoustic environment, volume levels used and even the time of day the system is played. Of course we use our ears to rate how well a particular system performs - to suggest otherwise would be disingenuous - but it is ultimately highly subjective. What I am saying, is that for any multivariate decision choice (including the choice of a hifi system) is that it is hard (verging on the impossible) to arrive at a short list of preferred components unless one attempts to manage complexity.
Consider this: we set out to purchase a hfi system comprising only 3 components, source, amplifier and speakers. Based upon some background research we arrive at a shortlist of 3 different source component, amp and speakers. This gives 27 different system configurations. Let us simplify matters by assuming that there are only four performance variables that concern us: say imaging, tonal accuracy, dynamics, and detail retrieval and that we consider each attribute to be equally important so that each carries an equal weigth of one. Any idea of how difficult it is to make sense of this unless one is systematic in the choice process.
Of course, others have faced this choice and many of this forum's membership will have experience of good and poor system combinations and happy accidental synergies. Given that the experience of forum members is much greater than the general public one would expect that the systems of many forum members would inlcude systems that are greater than the sum of their parts and represent good synergies between components. When I started my own hifi journey around 40 years ago I had no idea of the then state-of-the-art or how to get close to it with a limited budget. It was only after i had bought my first system that I heard a Michell Transcriptor turntable feeding Quad amps and ESL57s. If I knew then what I knew now I would steer clear of the magazines and hifi show rooms and try to hear as many different types of systems in as many different settings as possible. From there I would highlight the performance attributes that are important to meet and then look for system combinations that get me closest to those goals.
Geoff
It's very simple. No hifi is perfect at any price. Some components do some things well and other things not so well and the performance of any single component is influenced by the other components it is used with. Attributes such as tonal accuracy, detail retrieval, timing, dynamics, transient attack, imaging, bass extension and of course "musicality" are all important and relevant but being difficult to measure come down to individual subjective perceptions. Those perception vary according to the acoustic environment, volume levels used and even the time of day the system is played. Of course we use our ears to rate how well a particular system performs - to suggest otherwise would be disingenuous - but it is ultimately highly subjective. What I am saying, is that for any multivariate decision choice (including the choice of a hifi system) is that it is hard (verging on the impossible) to arrive at a short list of preferred components unless one attempts to manage complexity.
Consider this: we set out to purchase a hfi system comprising only 3 components, source, amplifier and speakers. Based upon some background research we arrive at a shortlist of 3 different source component, amp and speakers. This gives 27 different system configurations. Let us simplify matters by assuming that there are only four performance variables that concern us: say imaging, tonal accuracy, dynamics, and detail retrieval and that we consider each attribute to be equally important so that each carries an equal weigth of one. Any idea of how difficult it is to make sense of this unless one is systematic in the choice process.
Of course, others have faced this choice and many of this forum's membership will have experience of good and poor system combinations and happy accidental synergies. Given that the experience of forum members is much greater than the general public one would expect that the systems of many forum members would inlcude systems that are greater than the sum of their parts and represent good synergies between components. When I started my own hifi journey around 40 years ago I had no idea of the then state-of-the-art or how to get close to it with a limited budget. It was only after i had bought my first system that I heard a Michell Transcriptor turntable feeding Quad amps and ESL57s. If I knew then what I knew now I would steer clear of the magazines and hifi show rooms and try to hear as many different types of systems in as many different settings as possible. From there I would highlight the performance attributes that are important to meet and then look for system combinations that get me closest to those goals.
Geoff
Congratulations! You managed to touch the surface of the subject (system choice) in 3 short paragraphs.
"It's very simple." Are not you contradicting yourself here a little bit?
I personally lost count on the number of variables that affect our perception on sound, not to mention the subjective aspect of it.
Good luck with that model if it makes your choice(s) easier
S
Sherwood
26-01-2017, 22:12
Congratulations! You managed to touch the surface of the subject (system choice) in 3 short paragraphs.
"It's very simple." Are not you contradicting yourself here a little bit?
I personally lost count on the number of variables that affect our perception on sound, not to mention the subjective aspect of it.
Good luck with that model if it makes your choice(s) easier
S
No contradiction. Define objectives. Score and weight. Compare against price. Buy!
The point I am making is that the choice is so complex that one needs to have a sense of what one is trying to achieve and to do that one needs to know what is possible. When I started out on my "journey" I had no idea what was possible. In my youth I lived in West London and relied solely on my experience of hearing hifi systems played in the less than ideal settings of Lasky's on the Edgware Road. and the other box shifters nearby. My point about listening to other systems is that by hearing how other combinations are put together and how they perform in different settings it helps to educate the ear. I now know exactly what I want from a hifi system and I did not know that for many years. It is still hard to achieve my goals which I why I have more than one system. One with a digital (i.e. streaming) front end powered by powerful digital monoblocks driving Maggies. The other has a vinyl front end (modified Linn) with good quality valve amplification (EAR, Croft and Art Audio) driving various speakers (Rogers LS35a, Ref 3 De Capo, and Omega Alnico single driver monitors). Some may see these systems as boring choices borne of mechanistic number crunching, but I would (of course) disagree. I don't think I would have arrived at my current sytems had I not, albeit belatedly, set out clear performance goals and pursued them.
Geoff
Coming in late, forgive me if I don't read all 14 pages up to this point. But Geoff makes a very good point. When I first began I knew I wanted a nice stereo, but was completely unaware of what was possible until I made a journey to my best local salon. Modest systems within my budget were making sounds I never dreamed were possible! I threw out all my junk and started over. Anyone's best first step is to go to their local salon, or salons. And hear what's there. And start at the speakers and work back. Pick speakers made for the size of your room, note what they are pushing them with at the salon. Audition amps, get out and hear a few. Perhaps a nice tube rig is your favorite? Or a heavy solid state? And work your way back to the source components. Unless you've already got a large collection of vinyl or CD's, then you are free to examine all possible sources. But, to educate your ear is the first step. Get out, find some respectable salons and find the sound you like! Then find out what is making that sound.
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Firebottle
27-01-2017, 07:29
My point about listening to other systems is that by hearing how other combinations are put together and how they perform in different settings it helps to educate the ear.
A crucial point Geoff, I consider it absolutely essential to 'educate the ear' to appreciate the performance (or lack of :eyebrows:) of all the different kit out there.
The box-swappers of the world go about it in a different fashion to visiting the salons/dealers but do appear to have fun doing it.
:D
Coming in late, forgive me if I don't read all 14 pages up to this point. But Geoff makes a very good point. When I first began I knew I wanted a nice stereo, but was completely unaware of what was possible until I made a journey to my best local salon. Modest systems within my budget were making sounds I never dreamed were possible! I threw out all my junk and started over. Anyone's best first step is to go to their local salon, or salons. And hear what's there. And start at the speakers and work back. Pick speakers made for the size of your room, note what they are pushing them with at the salon. Audition amps, get out and hear a few. Perhaps a nice tube rig is your favorite? Or a heavy solid state? And work your way back to the source components. Unless you've already got a large collection of vinyl or CD's, then you are free to examine all possible sources. But, to educate your ear is the first step. Get out, find some respectable salons and find the sound you like! Then find out what is making that sound.
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Ah yes, best with the respectable ones :eyebrows:
No contradiction. Define objectives. Score and weight. Compare against price. Buy!
The point I am making is that the choice is so complex that one needs to have a sense of what one is trying to achieve and to do that one needs to know what is possible. When I started out on my "journey" I had no idea what was possible. In my youth I lived in West London and relied solely on my experience of hearing hifi systems played in the less than ideal settings of Lasky's on the Edgware Road. and the other box shifters nearby. My point about listening to other systems is that by hearing how other combinations are put together and how they perform in different settings it helps to educate the ear. I now know exactly what I want from a hifi system and I did not know that for many years. It is still hard to achieve my goals which I why I have more than one system. One with a digital (i.e. streaming) front end powered by powerful digital monoblocks driving Maggies. The other has a vinyl front end (modified Linn) with good quality valve amplification (EAR, Croft and Art Audio) driving various speakers (Rogers LS35a, Ref 3 De Capo, and Omega Alnico single driver monitors). Some may see these systems as boring choices borne of mechanistic number crunching, but I would (of course) disagree. I don't think I would have arrived at my current sytems had I not, albeit belatedly, set out clear performance goals and pursued them.
Geoff
Good for you. It is true - there is no perfection but one could approach it asymptotically by skillfully combining diffident approaches i.e. minimising weaknesses and maximising their strength. Combining different approaches (audio components inside as well outside) without understanding the overall concept can be very costly and can lead into oblivion i.e. endless loop if pursued with a dogmatic attitude.
No perfection is not an excuse for mediocrity
Michael loves music
28-01-2017, 12:50
Amazing photo Geoff
I would have just invested heavily up front rather than trying to upgrade budget gear. Have never wanted to buy big badge stuff as I am a marketer, so know where the price goes. Second hand classics or people like RFC, LFD, Firebottle, NVA, Audial, Tube Distinctions, Arkless, Colin Wonfor's independent work, Avondale, Nelson Pass, DIYAudio builds is where you can find very enthusiastic audiences that don't care about badge hype or five star reviews.
Colin Wonfor
30-01-2017, 21:54
Thank you for the complement :)
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